ANYTHING FOR MONEY{Hybrid Rant#2}

[Aztec Fred]

Jeff ******** and others,

HYBRIDIZATION...in this case the practice of crossing two snakes from the same family but diffrent locales(i.e. Nicaraguan and Colombian Boa constrictors)
OR
Crossing two snakes that are NOT from the same group, and do not share similar habitats nor geographic ranges(I.e. anaconda andArgentineboa)

Cannot be compared to someone line breeding dogs or cats to create a diffrent look, WHY? Because even in line breeding cats, you are still dealing with Felix domesticus, domestic cats.
NOW if you were to take, lets say a BOBCAT and cross it with a house cat, then that would be hyrbridization.Plain and simple

WHAT is going on in the herpetocultural community is just this:
You have a number of breeders, eager for profits and basically either bored or wanting to produce something"NEW" at any cost, who are commited to crossing snakes to get something NEW.

NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW NEW

In ana era of a society that throws away children(Abortion) because they are an "inconvenience"
In an era of society that gets divorces in alarming numbers because they want to individually be "happy"
In an era where familys rarely spend any time together

I bring you the newest fad: "NEW HYBRID snakes that occupy the publics atention only long enough for the NEXT hybrid to be created!!

Do you think for one minute that they would cross them if they thought that what they produced would look like either parent 100%?What would be the rational behind that?
No..they do so so that they may nake something NEW

The PUBLIC has an insatiable desire and hunger for NEW things.
Witness Reptiles magazine, and the many new morphs(Not hybrids but morphs of non crossbred snakes) that grace the front cover. The PUBLIC eats this up

NOW realize this:

most peole that are new to this hobby, that may be buying these snakes, have NO idea of the natural history of the animal, where they come from, what the area looks like, the temps, the humidity,...NOTHING.
We haver separated the animal from its natural envionment. HOW many of these people have ever gone out or will ever go out to collect snakes in the wild and seee, first hand , what the enviornemt they live in islike, and make the connection.


Answer: NOT MANY

The hybrid crap is basically part of it.We now help create animals which are an abomination, which would never exists in the wild(BallXBlood...please...) and which, when bred tiogether produce genetic hodegpodge

Someone here said it is going to become more popular in the future. I guess then the people that are heavily into it now will be the ones laughing to the bank. But then...........thats what this is all about....................makeing money.....turning a profit..................haveing bragging rights...............
The same thing happedn with pot bellied pigs and brids.....the hobby gets consumed with those that desire to make this their livelyhood, no matterwhat the cost to us all.

I choose not to buy them
You must choose for yourself
Remember, what is NEW today to you
will be old in 3 years time
And no longer the novelty it was


Fred Albury
(Aztec Reptiles)

AS ALWAYS:

NO HYBRIDS

NO IMPORTS

NO I.B.D.

NO MITES

NO LIES

[K-DOG]

I hear ya!!! But if you know its going to be a pet for yourself and cant reproduce like ATBxETB is that o.k?

[Dom]

I agree .. Great post!

[Shane Tesser]

Abortion in a snake forum....family values....come on, what does that have to do with anything here. How do you think all of the different types of domestic house cats really came about. No one even really knows where the original genes came from anymore. The same goes for dogs...look i understand why your so passionate with the response...im also for the preservation of all species of animals....but my though is that we have enough animals, of almost any species that we keep as pets to stop from pulling them out of the wild period. So if someone wants to develop a new stain....one that is healthy, will not be released into the wild, or neglected or does not have genetic defects such as an almost inability to eat on its own, i say go for it. Its time to stop raping the natural surrounding of this earth for our own means....when we have the capabilities to produce, perhaps even improve on species that we all currently already keep. S.t.

[sSNAKESs.com]

Originally posted by Aztec Fred
The hybrid crap is basically part of it.We now help create animals which are an abomination, which would never exists in the wild(BallXBlood...please...) and which, when bred tiogether produce genetic hodegpodge

What is more of a abomination, breeding a hybrid or line breeding snakes that have NO pigment in there skin and breeding them for that reason intentionally... Thats like breeding 2 people with sicocell genes to produce a calico or pigment free individual.... I see no problem with neither but it makes me disturbed when i see people who are all for the newst BP morph plucked out of africa but then say that they are against hybridization.

[girraffasaurus]

Okay, I'm not going to say everything, but I'll try to make my point. Let it be said that I am new to the hobby and no little about this, but here are my thoughts on your post:
1. Abortion is not always because it is "convenien". Sometimes a parent simply cannot take care of a child, and it would be worse for the child to be born into that. Also, this is not an "era". People have been leaving babies in streets to die for hundreds of years, so abortion isn't the worst thing out there.
2. Um...WHAT IS WRONG WITH GETTING DIVORCED TO PURSUE HAPPINESS?!? Yeah, our grandparents' generation didn't get divorced, but how many battered wives, alcoholics, etc. came from those situations? How many miserable people?
3. I think going out into the wild and taking a snake out of its natural home (when we have so many CB snakes)is wrong. Why would you do that?
4. Just a side note: I know a dog that is half wolf which is somewhat like your cat/bobcat example. She is perfectly fine. In fact, she is wonderful. Oh, and what is wrong with new things?

[reverendsterlin]

Girra,
Your 1/2 wolf is a good example. Here in New Mexico we have a wolf rescue. There are dozens of these hybrids there that cannot be kept as pets any longer because they are dangerous from the highly developed pack mentality that caused competition between them and their pack/owners. These animals will spend the rest of their lives in dog runs because they cannot be released into the wild. Sure some may be great housepets but how many are destroyed or given to rescues every year? The good ones are probably no comfort to the many that die or are caged. So are say 1000 good hybrids of this type type worth the need to destroy 1000 or 100 or 10 or 1 of these animals because someones thinks 'wow, I can own a part wolf' ?JMHO
Sterling

[Sean_.E.]

Why is everyone argueing? >(

Everyone is entitled to their own oppinion! Whether its about

hybrids, divorce, abortion, etc.

What you think about one situation may be completely different

than what someone else thinks.

Imho I think wut u think is right is right. If some one else doesn't agree with you who cares it's what u think that matters.

I don't see the frickin point in fighting over someone elses oppinion. If you have a problem judt keep to yourself and everyone will be :)!

Thanx for listening! :) ;)

Sean.E.

[rattekonigin]

I already posted my opinion on hybridization on the first thread, and don't take me for being a nitpicker because of this post, but there actually is a variety of cat people keep as pets (don't remember the name, bengal maybe?) that is a cross-breed between the domestic cat and a small wild cat species (possibly ocelot, not sure), so selective breeding elsewhere in the animal kingdom isn't necessarily limited to linebreeding, hybrids exist there too.

[Quervo]

Sean_.E. wrote
Why is everyone argueing?

Sean .. you shouldn't take this as an argument .. this is an airing of opinion. (ya .. I know, subtle difference) Now I don't think bringing issues like abortion and divorce are a good idea .. That IS inviting an argument.

But let's face it .. the issue of hybridization will be resolved by the people who buy the animals .. if there is an active market for hybrids, someone will do it .. if those of us that are right (:D :D ) are the majority, there won't be money in it, and it won't be done. Well, won't be done on a large scale anyway.

So there you go .. no argument .. see, we all have big smiles on our faces as we try to rip each other apart.

lol

[Jeff_Favelle]

Keep in mind that the whole species classification model is man-made. Animals don't always necessarily follow the model to a tee either. I mean, the current definition of a species is a like organism that can reproduce and produce fertile offspring. Well then, I guess that makes corns and kings the same species! I Lamproelaphe guess?!!

Sure prezygotic and postzygotic barriers to inter and intra species breeding exist in the wild, but how many of those are also man-made? Mountains may be natural, but vast stretches of urban wasteland isn't. Also, keeping snakes in captivity and breeding them and letting EVERY SINGLE baby survive (including runts and kinks etc etc) isn't very natural either. Promoting weak genes may be more harmful than "hybrids". But that doesn't seem to matter, now does it. Why have a clutch/litter of 20 snakes where only 5 would normally live? That's only 1/4 of the profits!! Better to have all 20 live AT ALL COSTS! Then the profits are much bigger so we can get more snakes to artificially breed in captivity to further perpetuate our "unnatural" hobby.

Just a different side. Do whatever you want to do as long as you treat the animals as you would want to be treated.

[Quervo]

Jeff_Favelle
Also, keeping snakes in captivity and breeding them and letting EVERY SINGLE baby survive (including runts and kinks etc etc) isn't very natural either.

Very good point Jeff

[jason h]

well ok iv bin reading this here whohaa for about 20 minutes(I READ SLOOOWWW) lol but anyway ive seen many cat hybrids as someone mentioned(bengals etc) and personally i like em as do i like some hybrid snakes like the borneo bateaters (burmXretic) and feel that they are very beautiful snakes as are some cute little hybrid dogs that are on the market today. And i find it to be more of a problem to inbreed snakes(an accepted practice) than to hybridize!but if ya dont agree with it dont buy it and if ya dont mind it and you like the result of a particular hybridization than get it cause it could end up being the best snake ya ever had,i cant eveen tell ya how many stories of dogs ive heard were it was the best dog they ever had and they wouldnt have traded it for the world and when ya asked them what it was they so oh just a mutt! or "hybrid" if you prefer!!!

[Aztec Fred]

I respect your right to have a differing opinion than mine.Thanks for your input.that is what this really is, a DISCUSSION. I will, of course defend my position vehemently, but frankly, I am encouraged by the amount of feedback and the interest shown by forum members on this subject. thanks again.


Fred Albury
(Aztec Reptiles)

[SilverTongue]

hmm well my opinion doesnt mean much, but if we didnt allow hybrids in nature then we have basically ellimanated over half of the worlds population. You yourself are a hybrid, unless you can prove Native Indian descent. This also goes for Natives and tribes of other countries in the dawn of time. Hybrids are apart of nature. It is how nature builds a stronger creature. It is also how nature elleminates a creature. What frightens me is the idea of cloneing. What is to keep a goverment somewhere from mixing a supersnake (a boa or anacondia) with the venom abilities of say a pit viper! Man I could see that as a really bad B flick movie staring Warren Batey. Ahh well :(

[rattekonigin]

Heheh, I don't think any government would bother wasting time and money genetically engineering a huge venemous snake...they'd be more likely to make super soldiers (they'd be a bit more obedient, methinks)
P.S. cloning and genetic engineering are two completely different things

[Quervo]

Hey SilverTongue .. of course your opinion counts .. and it brings up a good point. We are all hybrids .. but then, look how screwed up we are.:D :D Well, some of us anyway.

And even though hybrids are one of natures ways of diversification, nature has a few billion years of experience ahead of us. We're still making WAY too many mistakes.

Aztek .. I agree with your post totally. I really enjoy discussions like this.

[Aztec Fred]

People arent hybrids,Lisa. They are ALL from the same species, homo sapiensDomestic cats and dogs arent hybrids either, they are all emanateing from a single species. An example of a true hybrid is a domestic cat crossed with an ocelot. Or perhaps a domestic dog crossed with a coyote or fox. Or a person crossed with a gorilla. THAT is hybridization.

Often people cross animals that are the same type and species, but the wrong locality, i.e. a boa constrictor from Argentina with a bioa constrictor from Suriname. NOW..both these snakes are both boas, but they are from two separate localities that would NEVER, ever come in contact with each other.
So waht do we do?
WE MAKE them come in contact with each other and give them no other choice of boas to mate with.

We force them to have no choices but the ones we select.

So they breed
And they produiced hybrids.

YES, they are both boas
No, they are diffrent in terms of heat and requirements and enviornmen

That sums it up

Fred
(Aztec Reptiles)

[rattekonigin]

People may very well be hybrids...about 100 000 years ago there was at least 1 other species of human (neanderthals; not sure of their scientific classification) on the planet in addition to our own species (us= homo sapiens sapiens) and there is a distinct probability that there was interbreeding between our own and this SEPARATE species of human...we're not talking locality difference with these 2...
But locality hybridization was also mentioned as a form of hybridization in the original post, was it not? (correct me if I'm wrong, I didn't check it) So, if this is the case, then most, if not all, humans are locality hybrids as well...

[Aztec Fred]

All men eminated from one man and one woman. This very Judeo-Christian Society that you live in is founded on those prinicples and faith. Not to bash anyone elses belief system,but all mankind emanated from 1 pair of people.The Bible tells us this. So do many other books of other religions that ARENT Christian.

Fred

[sSNAKESs.com]

Well fred as per the making 2 things breed that would never meet in nature, without our modern technology a native indian and a white man would never have met either.... or a etheopian, nigerian etc... so technically it does apply to humans in that respect IMHO :)

[SilverTongue]

hehe i love this debate...........ok if we all came fro adam and eve....there for we all came from cain and able....hmmm 2 men....one killled the other leaving one men. Cain goes to the land of nod i think to find his wife. hmmmm hmmmmm where did the ol wifey come from?? See when i was 10 i asked that to my preacher after he stammered and mumbled a few things he walked away.

Two things we did not desend from the same pair. It is immpossible.

second the bible is so incompleate that it can actually be more fictional than fact. But honestly how do we know. Considering it was put together by a group of monks.

first if you are going to follow something blindly please dont use it in an argument with people who may have actually researched different religions and origins...no i dont know all i have just done a lil research.

second dont follow blindly try asking a few questions perhaps you might actually learn something.

third. This is a Herp forum. There is really no reason to bring up religion.

Sorry for my rant, but sheesh it had to be said.

[Jeff_Favelle]

And there goes the discussion! Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

Oh yeah, on the phylogeny of man, we lived at the same time as neaderthals and cro-mags. I think they were violent or something and killed each other to extinction and we survived. I studied this, but it was ages ago. I'll look up my notes.

Just keep in mind that the very keeping of snakes in captivity is unnatural, so what's the difference with hybrids? Nothing. Just don't release them into the wild. But if you're releasing snakes from captivity into the wild, you got problems in the head anyways.

Ciao

[Joe]

It's all a conspiracy none of this ever happened, man didn't land on the moon!!!! Mommy im scared!!

[Aztec Fred]

Dear Jeff,

Native Americans(Indians) and White Men(European-Caucasians) are all the exact same species.



Anacondas and Argnetine Boas are not.

One is ahybrid. the other simply two strains of the SAME species interbreeding.

On and on the eggman went.................

I feel a little Biblical fear going on, so lets switch the conversation to................Why are psorts stars that are paid sooo much money such mrons in their personal lives?

Ok...dig in boys,


Aztec Fred

[sSNAKESs.com]

LOL!! Fred i agree with you there!! complete idiots!

[Dom]

This is just too entertaining ..

As for the humna Hybridyzation.. THere was two DIFERENT species of humans living at once and IT was Possible .. this is not proven, that there could of even been up to 5!!! Different species of human living all at one time... Again not for a long time It can't be proven but one things for sure, We are the only specie of humans living right now but it has not alwasy been that way. Thereforethe possibility of a hybrid human is great.

As for religion .. we all come from 2 ppl .. Sorry to say, I have no religion and every single thing i have ever leaned, I haved debated and research to prove validaty .. We could possibly come from two ppl but, they diud not just appear.

The most likely situation is that they were hybrid(s) made from two diferent species creating a FERTILE infant wich eventually started up our own race. So in my oppinion, we all all hybrids and so is every single other animal.


I personally choose not to support hybridization in captivity but if ppl want them, they will be created. I perefer pure animals.. (even though there is no such thing..


And also I had a carpet python that was a cross from an Irian Java and a Coastal that i had rescue from a previous ower .. He was my favorite of favorite snke .. and also my only one tht was crossed within localities..

Just my thoughts..

Again sorry to go against some ppl's belief but it is a discussion and we have a right to our say.

Dom

[Jeff_Favelle]

Why aren't WE the overpaid sports stars!! Ha ha...

The onlt thing I hve a problem with is that the whole species model is made-up (BY US!!). And our definition of a species is "like animals that produce fertile offspring". So if the offspring are fertile, then why are they different species? And if they are different species, then why can't we breed them? Hmmm....

[Quervo]

Why aren't WE the overpaid sports stars!! Ha ha...

I'll go you one better Jeff .. why aren't we paid for the TONS of research we are doing on herps .. such as our ongoing research into hybridization. lol:D :D

[Aztec Fred]

Wow, look at this outpouring of debate.
Who KNEW it would cause all this.

Good! :)

We have so many anthroplogists and paleontologists here, it makes me wonder if im in the wrong forum. Is this the "I know everything about pre-mezozic man forum?" Laughing out loud!!


For those of you that believe in the Bible and in Jesus, well..all I can say is I tried. I feel like the guy on the movie "The Night of the living dead" who is trying to fend off the horde of DEAd zombies that want his brains. he shoots them in the body with a shotgun, but they keep on comeing, and comeiong and comeing..LOL

Time to climb up a tree(Zombies cant climb trees)

*If I have offended anyone here I apologize, but i am one opinionated s.o.b. and usually speak my mind,i expect you to speak yours, and you have!! congrats all, canadians rock!

Fred
(Aztec Reptiles)

[reverendsterlin]

dag gummit Fred I ain't no Canadian lol j/k
Sterling

[Jeff_Favelle]

And how about them Chargers? Go Flutie!!

[Aztec Fred]

To Sterling:
Sorry I thought you were Canadian, frankly I have met so many cool Canadians, and so many screwed up Americans in the past 2 months that I ASSUMED you were Canadian by your attitude. Whichis a good thing! You are still THE MAN, Sterling, as you defended me from those iditos on the boa forum. thanks.

To Jeff Favelle,


CHARGERS? You *GOTTA* be kidding????
Id sooner dunk my head in the mens urinal in the restroom at the San DiegoSports Arena and pull out a air freshener from it with my teeth!

Math equation for the day class!:


1 Lousy football team(Chargers)
-+ 100's of Expeniive inflated season tickets
---------------------------------------------------------------

Hundreds of disillusioned fans



ONE WORD MY CANADIAN FRIENDS

FOR U.S. FOOTBALL

ONLY ONE TEAM WILL

TRULY DO..........


GO RAIDERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!




Sincerely,


Aztec Fred
(Raider Fan FOR LIFE!!)


I bleed silver and black.....................
+

[jason h]

LOLn i believe aliens put us here on earth as"cattle" for food !!!then like rabbits in australia we just over run the place so they moved on to somewhere else!!:D

[reverendsterlin]

wish we could get back Conrad Dobler at his prime. I consider him the ultimate Raider player of all time lol (nobody said I was sane)

[Jeff_Favelle]

I'd have to say Go 49ers then 'cause they have Garcia. Raiders? Who's their QB? Exactly. Maybe they should sign Andre Ware again, ha ha!!

[Billy]

I would have to say that I agree and disagree with both arguments ( which is different for me as I can get very opinionated about certain subjects ).

I think that the first consideration should be for the animals, I mean, some animals can be inter-bred quite successfuly, for example the Bengal Cat or the mule which is a cross between a horse and a donky, but others just don't mix well at all producing an animal that just wasn't meant to be ( I can't think of any at the moment ).

I personally don't really believe in cross breeding myself, but as long as the animal produced is 100% a healthy animal then so be it. I might even find one that I like.

Thanks for reading my rather long winded reply, I'll try to keep it shorter next time

Billy

[crimsonking]

Speaking for myself and from my exp.,I'm not sure anyone can positively guarantee that the animal(s) they have before them are"pure" this or that. Most of us get our herps from breeders who try to represent their animals honestly, but who can sincerely be sure of the complete lineage of any animal? Even wild ones.I believe the problem is with those who do not represent the animals they sell honestly. (As it was with Fred's boas I think.) Unless we all have access to some dna typing equip., we are at the mercy of each other's honesty. Mark