Young children handling a ball python

[daver676]

My girlfriend's friend babysits 3 mentally handicapped children between the ages of 5 and 7. My girlfriend (without my knowledge) told her friend that she could bring the kids over to see and handle the snake. Now since this is all arranged already, I need some advice on how to let these children handle the snake? What should I say to them, and how should they hold the snake? I don't want one of them to be able to squeeze the snake and hurt it, but it would be nice if they could hold it SOMEHOW. Any advice is greatly appreciated. I am VERY protective of my snake. Oh yeah, the snake is only about 20'' long.

Thanks

Dave

[marisa]

I personally would let them PET the snake only. Kids (ANY kids) can be bitten and have very rude bullheaded parents and you don't want that kind of trouble.

Also in the future tell your girlfriend your pets aren't her personal zoo open to visitors without your consent.

Marisa

[RepTylE]

My youngest nephew likes to pet my BP. He's never shown the least bit of aggression but I don't take any chances. The snake is pretty tame too. lol
Seriouslly though........
I agree with Marisa on the point about the personal zoo comment. I mean who wants to come home to a story about your pets biting a child or is injured by being dropped. Coming to look at the animals maybe but handling them no way!

[elevation24]

My 21-month old son is extremely gentle with all of my ball pythons but I would never let him hold them until he's a lot older. But I've taught him to pet them very gently and he loves to touch them. He's very intrigued by them and loves watching them too. He also has never shown the least bit of aggression.

These are older kids and I'm quite sure could handle holding a little snake for a minute or two but you also said they are mentally handicapped. What age are they mentally? Have you met them, and after being around them do you believe they are capable of handling the snake? If you have the slightest bit of doubt, don't let them, instead just let them pet it. If you told them how to handle them, would they understand it? Is the snake aggressive in the least bit? You said it is only 20 inches, it's probably still a baby and most babies can be very defensive.

[V.hb]

Dave, make sure these children are allowed near the snake. If the decision was made by the baby sitter, her, as well as you can be in serious trouble for this! espeacially when dealing with handicapped children. personally I feel its a great oprotunity to educate children on these cool animals, however parents always need to know!

my advice, is to handle the snake.. Then show them how to do the same. Balls are pretty placid. Hope it all goes well.

[sapphire_moon]

personally I would make her cancel, these are your snakes, not hers, if she insists on it, print out a form basicly explaining everything, and saying that if the child gets bit then you are not responsible for it. And if the childrens parents do not sign this, then they can pet the snake while you are holding her/his head. If the parents sign the paper, then show each child individually how to hold the snake, and limit the amount of time holding the snake to about 1-2 min a piece.......then afterwords.......tell your gf to have enough respect to ask you first.......I'm sure she wouldn't want you to take a few kids and have them handling her fave......jewlry, stuffed animals, porclin dolls.......anything of hers that she is protective over........Just my 2 cents.....please don't take offence!!! and goodluck.

[Scales Zoo]

Kids love snakes, and many mentally hadicapped kids we have seen like snakes more than your average kid.

If your ball python is trust worthy, I would definitely at least let who ever wants to touch it do so. Just stress that they have to pet it nice, and can't squeeze, pat, or beat the snake.

We have let many kids hold ball pythons (and many other snakes). Ball pythons are the best snakes for this, overall, and in general, in my opinion.

If you don't want the kids to come over, take a snake to them.

They are kids, they deserve to get to see reptiles in real life - it might be their favorite experience for years - and you get to provide that for them.

Also, if they get to see a snake at this age, they should never develop fear of snakes in the future.

I say that if the ball python is trust worthy (which 90% of the ones we've had are) definitely let them touch and maybe hold the snake. They might not want to hold it, but I'm sure you can get all of them to touch it - and they will be amazed at how nice they feel (especially BP's)

I've got a bit of a soft spot for kids who are dissabled or disadvantaged due to a handicap, but it is those kids who seem to appreciate someone doing something special for them more.

Ryan

[Pixie]

Very well said Ryan :thumbsup:

Giving the experience of seeing a snake for the first time, especially to kids and disadvantaged ones at that I think is a really nice thing and could be acheived without problems if all is planned first.

I would recommend that one child at a time gets to be one on one with the snake and get to touch it. I myself have let young children touch and hold one of my bp's and all went well. When it came to holding it, I would have the front part with the head and would let them hold the bottom half. That way I wasn't afraid that the snake would bite one of the kids.

I would have a talk with your girlfriend about volunteering your snakes for this without asking you first!

Pixie

[LadyHawke]

i agree if you are worried write up a waiver
also i do shows for kids, get them to sit and be calm, explain to them that they dont like to be startled and lay a few ground rules down before you bring out the snake and get them to repeat it if necessary so that they understand, if they dont follow the rules the animal goes away, simple as that. its also best done before eating as well, i find...the kids that is. i find handicapped kids are very eager to please, and it would be a good experience for them. chances are tho being handicapped and only 5 and 7 i wouldn't let them hold the snake unless you felt absolutely confident about it as severity in handicapped children differs from one individual to the next. i also control the head at all times, so that the only part the child gets to pet is the rear end.

[HetForHuman]

I actually brought out my ball python for the next door neighbor kids and they absolutly loved it. i told them the way to hold him and handle him. i let them all hold him but i was right there the whole time.

I just told them to not touch his head as he gets a little skiddish when you go near his head, but he has never ever tried to bite me.

all the questions they asked me i tried to answer correctly so that they would understand and everything went really well.

Now they want me to bring out my 6 1/2 foot boa next time and i said i would but i will not let them hold her.

[hudson]

Depending on the severity and nature of their handicap this could either be the best experience they have ever had or a total disaster. A lot of handicaped children use very quick movements or are a lot more rough than they intend to be. It may not be such a good idea to let them hold him, but if you or someone else holds their hand while they pet so it's a little more controlled it should be okay.

Kate

[Invictus]

I think children should be allowed to handle docile snakes, but I would personally only let a child who was related to me (my daughter or one of my nieces) actually HANDLE one of the snakes, because it's easier to take responsibility with relatives than with someone else's kids. When I was a teenager, I babysat two mentally handicapped kids, and I have a huge soft spot for them as well, but because they sometimes get carried away when they are excited, and don't always possess the same levels of restraint as a non-handicapped person, I'd be more apprehensive to let them fully handle a snake, no matter how docile. Use your judgement though; if the kids can be reasoned with and instructed on how to properly handle snakes, I think you should absolutely let them. I think everyone should have that opportunity.

[Mike177]

hmmmm there seems to be alot of mixed thoughts on tis topic but i would say if u feel they are capeable of doing it i would let them do it. and if you dont, well how much can a child hurt a snake by touching it with one finger. i had a 7 year old at my house and she was very eager to see one of my snakes, so i took out my BP. she was very calm to entire time so i just told her to put her hands out and just let the snake do it's thing. well she caught on very quickly and now when she asks if she can hold a snake i have no worries (but obvisly i supervise all handelings) so i would talk to these kids first insted of ruleing them out. good luck.

[MouseKilla]

Ryan is absolutely right about these kids getting a chance to enjoy these animals. It's very important not to make assumptions about them just because they have a disability. Obviously you need to know about the kids a bit (disabled or not) and be reasonably sure they aren't irrationally violent or wreckless. My daughter has been handling snakes since she was three. It doesn't take a whole lot of intellectual capacity to understand "GENTLE". Also, as with any minor, you may want to have a telephone conversation with the parents about the whole thing, I'm not sure a support worker or teacher necessarily has the authority to make that choice. Of course the whole thing is kind of stupid because no one would think twice about letting a kid pet a cat. A cat can be hurt by a child (I've seen that more than once) and child can also be hurt by a cat. What's the difference? How much money would a lawsuit about a couple of cat scratches bring? Could a bite from a 20" BP be any worse than that?

[marisa]

It takes literally nothing to understand how to hold a snake.

That is not the issue in my mind.

The issue is the fact that snakes, ALL SNAKES, can be unpredictable and when letting children hold them one must be ABSOLUTLY sure they have parental consent.

Marisa

[MouseKilla]

The same could be said about any dog, cat, guinea pig or hamster. How many kids are bitten by their friends pets? Tons. Legally you are responsible for any DAMAGE done by your pets, regardless of what that pet is. We're still talking about baby ball python here not a 12 foot Egyptian cobra right? What could it do? Still a good idea to talk to the parents first before having their kids come into your house for any reason. Stange adults inviting their kids kids into their houses can make parents uncomfortable animals or not.

[Tim_Cranwill]

I agree 101% with Ryan. You will have to play it by ear of course but I'm sure it will be a rewarding experience for everyone involved.

But yeah, ask your girlfriend not to "obligate" you to such uncomfortable appointments. :D

[daver676]

Wow, thanks for all the ideas. A waiver seems quite intimidating, but so does being sued because I THOUGHT my snake would be OK with it. I also have very little experience with mentally handicapped children, so I'm kind of assuming they may be a little more unpredictable than your average 5 year old.... I expressed my concerns to my gf last night, and also said that the children HAVE to have their parents' consent. The more I think about it, the more pissed off I get at my gf. The cat is hers, the snake is mine.

But I also think this could be a great experience for these children as well, and I would love to share my love of reptiles with them. We are rescheduling with the babysitter because I wasn't even going to be home. Thanks for the opinions and ideas, and keep them coming!

Dave

[BurmBaroness]

I routinely take several of my snakes to an area school for science class. It's for 7th grade, but usually ends up being pretty much all the upper grades. I have one snake, a BP, that the kids are allowed to touch, but no handling. The parents are aware that I will be there, and some of them come as well. But if someone's child gets bit, no matter who's falut it is, ultimately "I" am responsible. Do I want to get sued? NO. But even more, I do not want bad publicity for snake keeping nor do I want other children to be afraid of snakes if they see a friend get bit. Just not worth it in my book.

[MouseKilla]

I'm still wondering what you could be sued for, even if the unlikely bite were to happen. The snake we're talking about here could cause very little damage. I've been bitten by much bigger snakes and had a hard time pointing to where it got me a couple hours later. Do parents normally sue if their kid gets scratched by a cat or nibbled by a guinea pig? That's the degree of harm we're talking about with that snake. I think it would be hard to sue for that and win anything. Are they gonna sue for the cost of a band-aid and some polysporin?

[Invictus]

The problem with lawsuits is people seeking compense for "Stress and Trauma". That's where the money is. Alternately, they can also charge you with endangerment, which would be much nastier.

[MAN OF STEEL]

i would just say forget about it. if something goes wrong it is too much $hit to worry about.

[MouseKilla]

In Canada lawsuits are pretty well limited to actual losses like wages and rehab that isn't covered by your provincial plan. Stress and trauma are very hard to sue for. As for endangerment, well good God, we're talking about a BABY ball here, what endangerment?? Again, the risk of harm with a snake like that is simillar to the risk from a small pet rodent, if that. Cats and dogs are capable of far more harm and no one wonders whether they should get a waiver from a kid's parents before they pet the cat. You definitely ARE responsible for any harm that may come from any animal you own but the risks in the case of this snake are so small and remote that it's not even worth thinking too long about it.

[marisa]

My thing is that WE all understand the risks from a baby BP is small. Yes, WE as reptile people understand that.

BUT normal general public does not and frankly I can just imagine a child being bitten by a "python" and the uneducated parent FREAKING out.

Personally, I would rather avoid those problems with handicapped children and any children under the ages of 10. I just prefer not to allow actual holding. But teaching and petting I love to do with kids and help them learn.

Marisa

[rwg]

The way I see it is yo uhave to control the unknown entities. When I let my kids (1.5 and 4) "handle" my corn snake, this means controlling the kids. The young one in particular I have to hold his hand, and keep my finger on his fingers to keep him from grasping or hitting while I help him pet it very gently. The four year old, I have to keep my hands very near in case she does anything sudden, but she gets to hold her in both hands if the snake is in a lethargic mood. If the snake is active, I let it crawl over her hands while I control the snake.

Whenever I go to the reptile zoo, and they bring out snakes for handling, they are always very careful to control the head of any snakes the public gets to touch or handle. The snake is more the unknown quantity in this case.

I dont know the maturity level of the kids you'll be dealing with, or the temperment of the snake, but I suspect you'll need to be in control of both, which may be a two person job.

rg

[MouseKilla]

How much could the parents freak out about the python bite if it doesn't even leave a mark?

[Iguanakikembood]

My 5 year old daughter has a 2 year old Ball (it was a baby when I got it for her) that she absolutely adores. She will sit for hours with it in her lap. It has never shown any agression towards me or my daughter. I hand feed it warmed frozen mice and I've never had an accidental feeding bite. Would I let another child hold it? Absolutely not. I've bred, studied, rehabed, collected and handled every sort of reptile for 35 years and I would NEVER tell someone that a given reptile would not bite. I have a friend that had to have a large part of his lower lip re-attatched because he was bitten by his 5 foot iguana that he had raised since it was a juvinile. Ironically, he was showing someone (a non herper) how tame it was when he was bitten. I don't know about the rest of you, but, I can't afford the kind of lawsuit that would come from a child being bitten on the face by one of my herps. Don't think your friends would sue you? Watch one Judge (insert name here) show and see some of the stupid crap people sue each other for every day. We are a minority. If it came to a suit, you would loose your butt. Gaaronteeed. I dont' know how things are in Canada, seems like they are a little more realistic. Here in the good ol' U.S. of A., you have to PAY to defend yourself from frivolous law suits. And even those can be heard buy a JURY. Will they be sympathetic to a small child? Or to a grown adult with an "EVIL" reptile? Here's a tip, DON'T BET ON THE REPTILE OWNER. like I said before, win or loose, you have to pay to defend yourself. Usually thousands of dollars. Still want to take your chances? Hell, here you may get sued just for letting a child NEAR your snake (traumatized child). Sounds dumb, but, thats why we have so many lawyers.

[Jayson]

I have many childeren over all the time to see and hold my snakes. First off they only get to handle certain snakes and they are given a quick lesson on how to hold the snakes. unfortunatly every once in a while there will be a accident. Even the calmest snake can bite.I think we have had two bites over the years one from an milk on a 6-7 yr old and the other was from a 36" burmese on a 13-14 yr old in both cases no one was greatly harmed, and at the time we just brushed it off as (you will live)LOL and in both cases the kids continued to handle the same snakes. All of the parents know that we allow the childeren to handle the snakes and realize that we are responable enough not to put their childeren in any danger.
Always make the kids clean their hands after handling the reptiles
I think a bite causing stitches would go over better then a kid catching samonella or somthing else.

Jason

[V.hb]

if the snake doesn't leave a mark, it doesnt matter.. The child could go home and tell their parents. some parents just freak out about stuff like that.. A friend of mine use to do reptile shows, some kids would go home and tell their parents how it frightened them, and their parents would complain.. So it really doesnt matter about severity

[Darlene]

Many good points have been made here. Personally I do shows for kids & anyone else who would like one. You will have to decide for yourself if you are comfortable with it though. If you decide to do it safety is your biggest concern for both your snake & the kids. You want to make future herpers here !!

When I am at home I place a sheet or blanket over my entire couch so no critter can sneak into it. I talk about the herp first & demonstrate & answer questions. Once everyone is all settled in I sit in the middle of the couch with a child on one or both sides of me (depending on their age/mentality). The herp starts off in my lap where they can touch it. We let it move over our laps & they can lift it gently back when it goes too far away. This way they are 'holding' as far as they are concerned but there are no worries of the critter being dropped to the floor & hurt/scared. They get lots of 'petting' time this way, too. Also the kids are not holding the critter up in the air & trying to see it or cuddle it or look at it's face or any such things; as this is when a bite would most likely occur. If the snake or whatever herp is roaming upon laps it is least likely to bite its' "substrate" & if it does then it will most likely get only a hand or arm as everything else in reach is clothed. You will also be in very close supervision of the whole encounter this way. Many kids I find I can reach right around with my own arm this way.

Good luck & I hope everyone has an enjoyable & memory-making experience !!

[MouseKilla]

V.hb,
Parents irrationally freaking out over an insignificant occurance doesn't mean they can successfully sue you. People can waste their money trying to sue for just about any stupid thing, you can't do anything about that. NORMAL, average people don't sue over nothing, a bite from a baby ball IS nothing. No stitches, no bruises probably not even a mark therefore nothing to sue for. They won't get anywhere with BS pain & suffering or emotional stress either because they wouldn't be able to prove any of that stuff either. Even if the parents do unreasonably sue you it won't get anywhere with a judge. I can't believe the over-reaction to the idea of a child holding a harmless creature, I hope none of you that are worried about this ever let a kid pet your cat or dog or let those animals outside. The risk we're talking about here is negligable, almost non-existant. This is crazy

[Steele]

I am gessing that your g/f knows the kids well and she shuld know if the kids can handle it I would say do it give them a note.In my exprans the parent of the kids would like the opertunity fore ther kid to have a new expireans which can be hard for them in the"real world" it will allso help them bild confadens and make them happy and it could spark a lite in on of the kids and then they could get a job in a pet store or a zoo that they couldnot have goten be for they met you so you could chang ther live for the better do you whant to miss that op even if just one kid gets interasted you have done a very good thing.so I say go for it have fun whith it and dot get mad at the lady frenid she was only trying to help brightn a little kids day and what is wrong whith that
STEELE

[Darlene]

I agree with Steele that you gf was only trying to do something nice for some special children. Don't be too upset with her for that. Just ask her for a heads up with her ideas next time. Tell her nicely that you would like her to share them with you first. Don't turn a nice deed into an argument. It's just not worth it !

P.S. Let us know what you decide & how it goes. The experience can be so rewarding for everyone.

[BurmBaroness]

I think everyone is missing the point of a lawsuit. IT isn't the lawsuit ITSELF that's the worry, it's the bad publicity that it would generate. It would be in the newspapers, local, maybe even farther, because anything to do with exotic animals and someone getting hurt, lightly bitten on up to being mauled, is big news. Let PETA get ahold to the news story. All it takes is one PETA member in a small town and it's national. We as herpers get enough bad publicity as it is. Laws in the US are being passed every day banning the keeping of certain reptiles. The lawsuit? Bah, it's just a bite from a baby BP. The publicity?? That could be holy hell. Not me...............

[tHeGiNo]

As someone had said, I presume your GF knows the children individually, and she should know whether or not they would cope with a snake in the room. A few things that are important are to make sure they know they are going to see a snake, and before you let them pet the snake hold it for a while and give a bit of information on the snake so that they see you handling and know it is not a threat.

[MouseKilla]

Burm Baroness,

The only way to combat the bad publicity that every article about a drunken hillbilly being bitten by his pet cobra generates is to get more people educated about snakes. If kids and the public in general have exposure to the harmless snakes that form the vast majority of species on the planet there won't be so many ignorant, negative opinions. I sometimes wonder if some of us, the herpers, aren't also affected by this ignorance and superstition. Most snakes aren't any more fragile or dangerous than a house cat but here we are worrying about the repercussions from the distant possibility of a notoriously tame and completely harmless snake. If we, the people with the knowledge, treat these totally harmless creatures as if they were a menace then how can we expect the uneducated to think of them differently?

[MontyPython]

MouseKilla.
Are snakes domesticated? NO That is why we treat them differently. They are wild animals and will ALWAYS be wild no matter if it's a cobra or a ball python. You have to respect that and treat them as such. If the snake does bite, there could be a potential law suit, and most likely the parent will win. Stupid law suits happen all the time. Years ago some woman spilled hot coffee on her self from a McDonalds, sued and won! I remember another one of a man falling off his bicylce after going down a hill and sued the company that made the bike that there was no warning that the bike goes fast when it goes down hill, he won also! The best one I remember is a couple doing what couples do, on a subway track, train comes, runs them over, they live, the sue they win! Hell even burglars that break into your house can sue and win, if they injure themselves!

Now, back to the original point, I say you should at least let the kids see the snake. It should be a rewarding experience for all involved, but next time, speak with your girlfriend before she tells someone that they can see something that you are very protective of!

P.S. Mouse Killa, what is up with your avatar? Is that a child giving me the finger? Careful, I could sue for trauma and stress, and WIN!

[Invictus]

So what's the magic number for animals to be considered "domesticated"? How many captive bred lines do you have to have before it's considered domesticated? Guess what? Cats are wild animals too. What makes them more domestic than a snake? Fur?

And by the way, most of the frivolous lawsuits you talked about above are urban legends. They did not actually happen. I believe there is (or at least was) a website dedicated to debunking these supposed lawsuits. I'll see if I can find it.

[Iguanakikembood]

My point was not whether or not you are actually successful at defending yourself, it's that it will cost you THOUSANDS to DEFEND yourself. Win or loose, you WILL pay! As far as those stories being urban legend, check some of the court records in your area, I'm sure you will find people who have successfully won stupider lawsuits. How soon will it be before all exotics are banned? Not long if irresponsible people keep giving activists ammunition.

[MontyPython]

I know that the McDonalds coffee incident happened, it was all over the news when it happened, you're right, the other 2 I don't know if they actually happened, I just remember learning about them in my high school economics class. That was 7 years ago...

What makes a cat more domestic is, for the most part, if it's an outside cat, it will back to it's home, to feed. I highly doubt if you gave a snake free range of your back yard or front yard that it would come back home under it's own free will. You can take a snake out of the wild, but you can never take the wild out of a snake...

[BurmBaroness]

I don't treat them as a menace. I believe I stated previously that I routinely do educational shows. At schools. With Children. I educate. I help them understand that they are not "gross", "cold', nor are they slimy. The only reason I do this is for education. There is a line, however, between education and stupidly leaving the door open for bad publicity, and I refuse to cross it. Just my opinion.

[thelessa]

Dear Dave,

I am curious as to what you have chosen to do.

Also, have you spoken with your G/F about volunteering your animals w/o your permission?

I see that you could be between a rock and a hard place on this decision.

I am also curious to see what advice you received swayed you either way.

I wish you the best of luck.

Lessa

[MouseKilla]

Monty,
Yes, that is a child flipping you off. Well technically she was flipping me off when I took the picture but don't think it can't or won't happen to you! She is also undomesticated, completely feral. And maybe down there in the whacky ol' USA you could successfully sue someone for that kind of thing but not here. Just like suing someone for a non-injury such as a baby ball python bite would be laughed right out of court. See we don't have the right to claim for arbitrary, crazy sums of money for ambiguous damages like pain and suffering and emotional trauma. Our appointed, not elected judges haven't allowed that sort of thing in the past and now there is a fair bit of Canadian case law that works against it. Besides this type of thing is a civil matter and you wouldn't even need a lawyer, especially since it would likely end up in small claims court. Maybe you would have to cover the cost of the Band-Aid and Polysporin. The example of the cat, by the way, wasn't to compare a domestic animal to a supposedly wild one. The point was to make you think about all the times that you or someone you know was scratched by a cat for no reason. My sister was attacked by her own cat, sent her to the hospital. That sort of attack is rare but scratches happen all the time and people don't sue for that stupid stuff except for the one time in a billion cat scratches that someone down there does and if for some reason they win, it is all over the news. The fact is that anyone who has owned both a cat and a baby ball python at some time in their lives knows that the cat is WAY more dangerous. Yet no one thinks twice about letting someone else's kid play with their cat or maybe even their large breed of dog. Seriously, think about that. As I said before as long as those of us who know better act as if snakes are more dangerous than they actually are we cannot blame the public for making laws against keeping them. Look at what just about every zoo on the planet does; they allow members of the public to handle their big burms and boas in a safe, supervised way. As with any animal, "domesticated" or not there is a far out, remote chance of the animal turning on someone. (Imagine the consequences for a zoo!) They do it anyway because the benefit of having people appreciate these creatures and realize, unlike some of us, that they are not viscious far out-weighs the very small potential risk. If you are trying to help or protect the public image of snakes all you need to do is allow the public access to them, their placid nature will speak for itself. Let's stop pretending every snake is venomous, hiding behind hooks and shields for an animal about as dangerous as an angry earth worm, it's just foolish.

[daver676]

Well I called it off for tonight. I would like to show these children the snake, and let them touch it, but on the other hand, the snake currently isn't being her normal energitic self, so until things return to normal with the snake, the kids will have to wait.

Mousekilla,

Where is that child feral to? I certainly wouldn't want to meet her in a dark alley........:p

Dave

[MouseKilla]

She was discovered on Crown land in the Algonquin Park area. Surviving on insects and small rodents she has developed a type of toxic saliva. And no, you certainly would not want to meet her in an alley or anywhere outside of her plexi-glass enclosure. I wouldn't want you to either. We've tried to avoid being bitten to make sure she doesn't acquire a taste for human blood.

[Invictus]

ROFLMAO@Mousekilla

[daver676]

Well doesn't every father, at one time or another, wish his daugther had poisonous saliva? Thats a good way to do away with unwanted boyfriends! ;)

Dave

[MouseKilla]

Well I was kinda hoping that the sets of pig's testicles that I've carefully tied to pointed steaks and planted along the walkway leading up to my house would be the boyfriend deterrent. Whatever does the job though. Maybe when I'm introduced to the first one that's dumb enough to ignore the pig's nuts I'll have a little conversation with him while I bonk a freezer load of rats and bunnies. I'll put him off his game by inviting him down basement for a chat. Then I'll put the little ******* on bagging duty and with a few dozen prey and a little luck scar him for life. From there I imagine word will spread to stay the F away from THAT girl. And if that doesn't work maybe the toxic saliva thing will be necessary.

[daver676]

LOL, great strategy...the mouse killing and such. The poisonous saliva may require a little more R&D though....

Dave