How old is "geriatric"

[Kalid]

I was reading through the past posts here, and found one referring to a 6 year old dragon as not yet being considered very old.

I was wondering when is a dragon considered "old" or "geriatric"?

The other reason I'm asking is I found an old bottle of Rep-Cal and Nekton-Rep (never know when an empty bottle might come in handy LOL). Both are dated Sept. 95, and I am pretty sure these were bought either right before or right after my dragon was purchased. So, this would put my dragons age at roughly 8 years old.

Also, I have done a little reading over the years about average life expectancy and come across different numbers. Some say 4-6 years, others say 6-12 years and still others say 10-15 years. Anyone have an opinion on which could possibly be right, or close?


Thanks for any and all your help,
Kali

[eyespy]

"Geriatric" is more related to bloodlines and husbandry than a particular number in my experience. In Australia, most captive dragons live to be over 20, have a reasonable expectation to make it to 30 and some few individuals have made it to 35. Of course, they don't have the problems with limited gene pools that we do, and they also are less interested in breeding for unique color morphs.

But overseas we are dealing with a tiny gene pool. High demand color phases have caused even worse inbreeding than just the limitations of a tiny gene pool already have. Some animals show geriatric conditions such as loss of muscle mass, decreased metabolism and slow cell regeneration at age 3! Others are still going strong at age 12+. It's more a matter of how inbred an individual dragon is that controls its lifespan.

Husbandry has a big effect too. In my years at Penn, we never saw a dragon kept on sand achieve greater than 10 years of age. Most slowly starve to death as a result of sand slowly accumulating in their guts and interfering with nutrient absorption. But we saw over 300 dragons that were older than 12 and had one dragon that was 21! She continued to lay infertile eggs up until she was spayed at age 18 because she finally become eggbound.

Low cage temperatures, overcrowding stress, and poor nutrition also take their tolls. Fatty liver disease is the #1 medical cause of death in bearded dragons and is usually a result of overfeeding protein and underfeeding salads. Recent studies that came out of Australia showed approximately 60% plant-based foods in the guts of neonate dragons and 90% plant-based foods in the guts of adults. We tend to significantly overfeed live prey in captivity and that causes obesity-related health issues such as fatty liver disease, heart disease and even diabetes.

[Kalid]

Thank you eyespy, I had assumed as much in referrence to bloodlines and husbandry.


Originally posted by eyespy
Recent studies that came out of Australia showed approximately 60% plant-based foods in the guts of neonate dragons and 90% plant-based foods in the guts of adults.

Is this study online; in whole, or in part? Could you point me towards it, if it is online?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by eyespy
We tend to significantly overfeed live prey in captivity and that causes obesity-related health issues such as fatty liver disease, heart disease and even diabetes.

This has me concerned, mainly because I know I have been guilty of this, from time to time. The most recent time being most of August, and I'd like help in encourageing more salad eating.

Back history: Beginning of August she is moved, This was significant family move, that resulted in her not eating salad for almost 2 weeks. I was able to coax her to eat a few super worms; some grapes, strawberries and blueberries; and crickets, but very little all in all. The fruit was "buried" in the salad, mixed in well (or so I thought) but the salad was flung and disrupted in order to find the fruit. The strawberries and blueberries were used as a last ditch effort at the end of two weeks to try and get her to "just eat".

Third and fourth week of August she went off crickets, refused mealworms and any fruit, except the grapes that were then being hand fed to her, and ate a small amount of her salad. By the end of August she went into her hide and stayed there for 4 days straight, at this point I thought brumation because she does do what seems like a mini brumation in the winter, and since she had a significant geographic change it made sense.

When she came out of the hide after 4 days it seems a new cycle has emerged. For a few days she will be extremely active then settle down for a few days then become extremely active. At this point, she is still refusing crickets, being handed mealworms every few days and being offered salad but just doing the "fling and stomp" on that.

Am I overly concerned? I'm used to her eating her salads like mad most of August and September and into October and then slowing down (eating) til she slows down (physically) and then popping back and eating fine til the next fall.

Thanks for any and all help,
Kali

[eyespy]

I've never seen the study online except on the Veterinary Information Network, which is subscription only. Even then, it was only an abstract, telling some details but not the full article. That tends to be the way with new studies, they are in subscription only journals for awhile so that the study author can regain some of the huge costs of doing research. Then after a few months or years the popular media gets a press release. So hopefully the full article will be available soon, or at least more detailed information.

What you are describing with the food-throwing tantrums is pretty typical lizard grudge-holding. Most of your smarter lizards will express their displeasure either through fasting and trashing their environment or poop painting the cage. As long as she is not losing weight, I tend to force the issue and give just enough handfed treats to keep up a dragon's (or iguana, or uro, or agama) energy and then keeping a well-balanced salad available for when s/he caves in. Beardies aren't as bad as iguanas for grudge-holding but they can be little stinkers during periods of stress and change. I told an ig owner recently that one of my vet friends says to give 2 months per year of age for an iguana to stop the tantrums. The older they get, basically the worse they are for handling change. In my experience you can halve the time estimate for beardies. They tend to be sweeter and not quite so smart so they settle down more quickly.

[Kalid]

Thank you very much! Knowing this is typical behavior puts my mind at ease.

Also, looking back over what I wrote, and looking at her closely, she isn't starving, just eating a bare minimum. Her weight is still good etc.

I'll just keep up what I've been doing and hope this passes in 6 months, barring anything new cropping up or her starting to decline.

Thanks Again,
Kali

[Wilma]

wow, I feel bad for not knowing how MUCH they depend on salad! Luckily all of mine are a year or younger (star and tripod) so I can up the salad now I know.