Insurance

[drewlowe]

I just got my issue of Reptiles in yesturday. They had published a great article covering insurance. I highly recomend that most people with large collections should read this article. It covers homeowners, renters and pet insurance. It deffanitly struck an intrest with me. I'm going to be calling my insurance company to see if my herps qualify under my homeowners or if i will have to get an additional admendment.

I was just wondering if anyone else knows if their herps are covered under their insurance or if your insurance company has dropped you for keeping reptiles???

The also brought up that if you are not coverd by insurance and someone broke into your home and you snake, lizard, or another animal hurt the person you would be liable.

any and all opinions welcome as this affects all of us...

[marisa]

I think you should be very careful letting your insurance company know you have reptiles. I have heard countless stories of insurance companies dropping peoples home & car insurance once they hear they have reptiles.

Personally I would say I am THINKING of getting Reptiles to feel them out first.

Marisa

[drewlowe]

I agree marissa, When i do talk to them i plan on being very cautious with my wording. In the article it talks about dogs and cats being claimed if they were lossed in an accident (say fire) and there were able to be claimed under property damage. I'm going to see if that is the case with my insurance. I will in no way tell them i keep reptiles. I don't want to be dropped because of my hobby.

[daver676]

We've got renters insurance, but I'm not sure if that covers the snake. In any case, they don't know I have a reptile. I think the policy pretty much says that anything in the apartment is covered. I'm not sure about the snake though....

Dave

[Lisa]

We don't have insurance yet, but will when we are buy a house.

[Colonel SB]

MY collection is not big enough, plus when I start a busniess I can get coverage then so no biggie.

[Tim_Cranwill]

The other issue I wonder about is coverage with heat tape. I've heard that if there IS a fire and you are using heat tape, you're pretty much screwed. I really hope that's not the case. Any one know?

[MouseKilla]

I know I have insurance that covers the contents of the house up to a certain amount. I don't see why animals wouldn't be included in that. I have receipts for most of them and some accessories so I would expect that the insurance would cover that stuff at least.

[Linds]

Most insurance companies will not provide coverage if they so much as find out you have but one herp, let alone a collection. They consider them to be a fire hazard due to heating and lighting needs.
Marisa is correct in that people have indeed lost coverage on their homes due to this. I've spoken with someone in the past that had this unfortunate incident.
I don't own a house, but when I do I will be looking long and hard to track down one of these places you are talking about! I was unaware they existed. I thought only businesses could be covered for these sort of things.

Originally posted by drewlowe

The also brought up that if you are not coverd by insurance and someone broke into your home and you snake, lizard, or another animal hurt the person you would be liable.


Ugh! This is one law that has never even made the slightest inkling of sense to me. How if someone breaks in to your house, whether it was your dog, you herp, or even you defending yourself, YOU get held responsible! Am I just supposed to just sit there while I get beaten, killed, robbed blind? "Excuse me burglar, would just put your plan on hold and just let me call the cops. Please have a seat until they arrive." Bah!! I don't know how many times I have heard of the person that broke in to the place counter-suing the person for hitting them with a bat or whatnot. Freakin ridiculous! :mad:

[BWSmith]

Call to inquire with a company that you have affiliation with. Your company won't even know.

[gauts28]

I’m fully insured. I pay a little bit more than what I’m suppose to but it was either that or my insurances company would put a statement in my insurance that they wont pay if any thing even remotely appends ‘cause of my herp. But I rather pay extra because if something appends (exp: fire) and you didn’t tell your insurance company and they found out that you ad reptiles they might not pay even if the reptiles were not the cause of the accident. And here in Quebec (I don’t know for the rest of the country or the us) They have to give you insurances if they don’t you just have to go to the insurance consumer protection (don’t remember the name of the place) but they give a order to the company to give you insurances. Or course they going to put something like “reptiles not covered” but it’s better than nothing.

[reptilez]

I dont think i have enough reptiles to be insured

[Wrath]

Oooh THAT kind of insurance. Here I was thinking along the lines of medical insurance. I am going to try to get some for my dog because I know that one day she's going to bust or break something and I wont be able to afford getting her properly fixed.

[Invictus]

Originally posted by cranwill
The other issue I wonder about is coverage with heat tape. I've heard that if there IS a fire and you are using heat tape, you're pretty much screwed. I really hope that's not the case. Any one know?

This is absolutely true. If an electrical or heat-related fire is caused by ANYTHING that is not CSA-Approved (and this includes if you do your own wiring for say, a lamp, and you are not a CSA Certified electrician), you void your insurance. Flexwatt Heat Tape is NOT CSA approved, so if the cause of the fire is determined to be the heat tape, you're up s**t creek without a paddle.

[marisa]

But you are also up a creek with no paddle if you are using the best CSA approved heating elements in all of canada, yet do not have insurance company that knows you have reptiles.

Marisa

[jay76]

Hmmm... I should look at the insurance issue. I rent the basement of a house and wonder if my keeping of herps/herp heating accessories is going to invalidate my landlord's insurance. Anyone know off the top of their head?

[drewlowe]

Jay that would be something you would have to find out through the insurance company. You have to check your policy or your landlords. if it does not then you would have to check into getting an admentment to the clause which would cost extra, but may be well worth it if something were to happen. Which is something i'm going to be checking into myself.

[Piebald Guy]

Hi All,

Just read your policy. Mine (from Allstate) reads.... "all animals" which includes reptiles. As long as it is NOT a business. You are NOT covered if you are conducting business. Yes selling reptiles you breed without a licence is a business (an illegal one). If you are in business then you are charging full 15% PST AND GST

(if you are not in Ontario but buy from it then YOU are responsible for paying your provincial taxes, only GST is REQUIERED, if you are american then you pay NO taxes in Canada.... you will be charged your taxes when it crosses the border for your state and federals)

Point served.... that will void your insurance (fully reserched through many companies including my own which I have documented to solidify any claim should the need arise)

BTW they are also covered under your theft policy without notification (big explaination here but... my entire collection is ensured up to $20000.00 CAD which is about 1000x more than it is worth... it's a standard policy for $200.15 CAD per annum)

Heat tape (or any American approved) as a heat source that is NOT sold in Canada and has no approval. Your in luck... certain HVAC products (categories as noted in CSA approval applications) are grandfathered or have parelled requirements. Flexwatt falls under these categories (as well as Flexall which IS CSA approved but only avialable through Europe.... do a simple search on Google, it pops up). You are covered by your insurance policy (at least mine but mine are pretty commonly writen caviots on a common contract) AS LONG AS YOUR ACTIONS (regarded as negligence if YOU cause the mishap. Meaning you didn't wire it wrong or broke any CSHA rules like open connections) did not cause the mishap (house roast).

Interesting wouldn't you say,

Dave

Pls forgive any spelling mistakes, don't have word installed yet

[Piebald Guy]

Don't think your insurance company is stupid (or the government for that matter). They do not like paying out claims which they feel are winable (meaning they don't payout). They have investigators as do the government. Do you think they don't have an idea what goes on? I got the pinch for not claiming (and it was 4yrs later, from the government which is FAR WORSE than ANY insurance company). I know exactly how they found out, too bad it was after the fact. Came from many people.

Same goes for the government.... as I stated above... DO NOT screw with the government. They DO NOT appricate it. You can commit MANY dispicable crimes and receive far less punishment by court system. Nothing p's them off more then not getting paid (ask anyone who has been audited).

Just a word of advice and warning.

Dave

[burmer]

We don't own now so it's not an issue. I am a little leary about even mentioning it to an insurance company. I've read and heard about so many people being dropped when they mention to an insurance agent they have snakes.

[lordkovacs]

for an insurance broker, reptiles equal many heaters and outlets in use, which equals a greater risk for fire. that'll be tough...
cheers,
MIKE

[sapphire_moon]

I am jumping in without reading anything because this got me. If I'm not insured and someone else breaks INTO MY home.....and my dog/cat/rabbit/snake whatever bites and or injures this person I AM HELD LIABLE. WHAT BULLS**T IS THIS??????? Ok now I'm going to go read what everone else said.....lol

Linds: A way to get the person robbing you/beating you, or worse which I'm not going to say is to........well do the "ultimate" in self defence.......:O

[MAN OF STEEL]

i have tried and still trying. every time i contact a company about it they pretty much laugh at me. bastards

[chas*e]

Insurance companies are scum of the earth(too be polite)...I stay away from telling anyone(government or such) my biz...don't need them......Lucky Luciano, the architect of organized crime, near the end of his life said,"When I see what the insurance companies are doing today(1969) I have been in the wrong business all my life"........get that inta ya.

[chas*e]

Insurance companies will gladly take your premiums each month but when it comes time(god forbid) for them to pay..well..I have and seen thousands of snakes in my time but I NEVER seen anything squirm and slide or as slippery as an Insurance company agent...lol.......drive it too them every chance you get because you know they would do/and do the same thing to you in a heartbeat

[Linds]

Piebald Guy,
Thanks for the informative post! I learned a lot :)

[ATR]

Insurance companies view reptiles as a risk-even more so than a vicious dog. If you read some of the policies, it explicity states that the insurance is void if you have reptiles.

As far as the heat tape issue goes, I spoke with an insurance agent that I know and he said the only thing that he could see is that insurance policies are voided if you have an electrical device that was not wired by a certified electrician. Obviously this would also apply to other wiring such as your house, etc.

[C_Ellenzweig]

Insurance companies are scum of the earth (too be polite)...

First of all, I'd like to state that insurance companies are not the "scum of the earth". Ignorant people are the scum of the earth. (to be polite) The type of people who don't know how to use the word "too" in the proper context (don't try to say it's a type-o, you did it in two consecutive posts) are probably the same type of people who launch attacks without having ANY knowledge to back them up.....get that inta ya.

These "scum of the earth" people that you refer to are all around you. They are your friends, family and fellow herp-keepers (including myself). Insurance is one of the largest industries in the country and employs hundreds of thousands of people. There are towns in rural areas that are almost 25% employed by the local insurance broker.

If you think that you're getting ripped off, guess what? Insurance companies pay out more that they take in from premiums. In fact, Canadian insurance companies pay out over $1.01 for every dollar they take in. (You can check this with the Insurance Bureau of Canada) The only way they make money is by investing that large pool of money (In case you didn't notice, the stock markets weren't great over the last couple years). On top of that, insurance companies lose TONS of money on auto policies. There is not one profitable auto line in Canada. Insurace companies receive most of their premiums from commercial policies.


BTW they are also covered under your theft policy without notification (big explaination here but... my entire collection is ensured up to $20000.00 CAD which is about 1000x more than it is worth... it's a standard policy for $200.15 CAD per annum)

Let's put this into perspective. Say you own a house that's worth $150, 000. In that house there is $25,000 in contents. If that house burns down, your insurance company is stuck with a bill for $175,000, plus the cost of the emergency services, a hotel to put you up in, any independent fire investigations, etc... At $200 a year, it would take you 875 years to pay for those damages. Everyone hates the insurance company until they need them.

If you actually knew where your premium dollars went, you would realize that it's not the insurance companies who are ripping you off. It's the people all around you. It's the doctor or lawyer that bills the insurance company $500+ an hour. Or the paralegal who is dragging thier case through the court system as slowly as possible in an attempt to bypass laws that prevent cash payouts before a certain time period expires (these laws deter fraud). It's the physiotherapist or chiropracter who insists you need more treatment when you feel fine. And finally, it's the insured. The person who claims they had a 32" TV instead of a 25", or a $2000 bike instead of the $200 CCM they bought at Canadian Tire. It is estimated that 10-15% of claims contain some degree of fraud (from exagerating what you really had to completely fraudulant claims). There of organized crime rings that include lawyers, paralegals, tow truck drivers, doctors, physio and mechanics. They stage accidents to recieve the benefits, which in turn get paid to others in the ring. (if you do some research, you'll see they are busted regularily) On top of that, there are the people who sue for HUGH amounts of money for soft tissue and other minor injuries.

Don't think your insurance company is stupid (or the government for that matter). They do not like paying out claims which they feel are winable (meaning they don't payout). They have investigators as do the government. Do you think they don't have an idea what goes on?

I assure you insurance companies are not out to get you. There is no such thing as a "winable" claim. There are "questionable" claims and "defenceable" claims. I also assure you that insurance companies are not stupid at all. They know exactly what is going on and if you try to screw them, they'll screw you even harder.

Defenceable claims usually involve one of two situations. First situation: where there is a disagreement in what the payout should be. This usually occurs in injury claims. People expect $15,000 for being off work for two weeks with whiplash. If you didn't notice, this isn't the USA, land of the lawsuit. Insurance is meant to compensate, not reward.

Second: where there are grounds for denial. Either:

a) you breached your contact (the law applies to every contract you sign, not just the ones you feel it should apply to)

or

b) There is enough evidence to support the position that your claim is fraudulent. (in essence, a breach of contract)


Questionable claims are where the investigator comes into play. If there is a "red flag" raised, the claim will be referred to investigations. For example: You claim you had a $5,000 diamond ring that was stolen and you can't find the reciept. (There's the first red flag) You have never had it appraised. (There's the second red flag, as most people with valuable jewellery will have an appraisal for insurance purposes) And to top it all off, you can't produce a single photo of yourself wearing the ring. (#3) Does that not seem questionable to you? Would you hand over $5000, or would you investigate more.

[C_Ellenzweig]

Cont'd....

Basically, what it come down to is this. Insurance companies have to assess risk based on statistics. (How else would they price the product) If you come out and say "Oh, by the way... I have reptiles, will you still insure me?", their first assumption is: If this guy feels that his reptiles are enough risk that he has to mention it specifically, they probably are. They don't know what kind of products are used and probably assume it's a risk. (While often, it is nothing more than a 60w lightbulb) Would you ever come out and say "I have a hamster, will you cover me?" Of course not. A hamster is not a significant risk. If you make it an issue, it will be an issue.

The best advice I can give is:

1) Don't tell your insurance company anything you don't have to. Be honest, but don't offer information.

2) If you have to have an inspection on your house, try to move your animals out temporarily. If that can't be done, be sure your wiring is legal (and neat, not tangled).

3) Your animals are only covered if damage is done by specified perils (causes). I.e. they would replace your animal if it died due to a fire.
There is no coverage for damage done directly by animals (of any kind), but a fire cause by the lamp on your tank would be covered unless it was caused by negligence.

4) If you are determined to ask your insurance company about coverage for herp owners, you don't have to tell them that you are insured with them and you definately don't have to mention your name. Act as if you are looking to purchase coverage.

On the Flexwatt topic:

Heat tape (or any American approved) as a heat source that is NOT sold in Canada and has no approval. Your in luck... certain HVAC products (categories as noted in CSA approval applications) are grandfathered or have parelled requirements. Flexwatt falls under these categories (as well as Flexall which IS CSA approved but only avialable through Europe.... do a simple search on Google, it pops up). You are covered by your insurance policy (at least mine but mine are pretty commonly writen caviots on a common contract) AS LONG AS YOUR ACTIONS (regarded as negligence if YOU cause the mishap. Meaning you didn't wire it wrong or broke any CSHA rules like open connections) did not cause the mishap (house roast).

This is correct. It is covered, as it meets comparable requirements and is exempt. (Providing the fire is not caused by negligence)

Chas*e: Sorry if I was a bit aggressive (and defensive) off the start, but you are making an attack from a unknowledgeable position. If you ever saw the industry from the angle I have, you would realize the the problems lie within the legislation and society itself.

[Cruciform]

Informative post :)

If anyone was reading the other thread I started about insurance Pilot has no problem with reptiles in the home. Though they do want to be notified of the size.

They're a good place to insure your car too :) When I was in Toronto on business I parked in the lot at Yonge/Finch where I used to work at the MOH. I figured I'd be back by 6pm no problem. Network issues at the press event we were staging delayed me till 11, and I found my dashboard ripped apart and console demolished by an amateur thief. It cost 800 bucks to fix, with a 100 dollar deductible.
The next time my car insurance renewed I expected to get dinged in a big way. It went down almost 10%.

Paying insurance sucks. Paying taxes suck. But at least I know what's happening with my insurance money. :)

[Tortoise man]

If you all need insurance I Heard that Traders General or Aviva dosen"t give a fuss if you got herps or not.

[C_Ellenzweig]

That is correct. I looked into Aviva's policies today and they do not have any exclusions (as to reptiles). Traders is a division of Aviva, but only deals in group policies (eg, unions, organizations, etc...).

Aviva is a broker based company, so you will have to deal with a broker. Also, they will probably refer you to Pilot, as Pilot is a subsidiary of Aviva. (If in Ontario. Pilot does not operate outside Ontario) Pilot is known as having a "Don't be cheap, the customer comes first." motto when it comes to claims.

Another line you may want to look into is the new Presidents Choice Financial line. I read that it is slowly being rolled out across Ontario this year and the rest of Canada next year. PC insurance will be operated by Aviva's Scottish & York and marketed directly through PC. It will probably be cheaper as well because there is no broker taking a commission.

[Lisa]

Another reason why it's always good to document and keep receits.

[C_Ellenzweig]

Another reason why it's always good to document and keep receits.

Exactly! If you are legitimate, you have nothing to worry about. Even a photo of you with your expensive items will do. You should have some proof of ownership.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Wow Colin, thanks for all the great info. On the other hand, there is quite a bit of misinformation in this thread that I think needs correcting:

If someone breaks into your home, your are allowed to use reasonable force in self defense. Reasonable is always a challenge to define. Generally in Canada the ‘reasonable person’ test is used, i.e. did you act the way any reasonable person would act under similar circumstances. Shooting someone who is threatening you with a gun is reasonable. Shooting someone as they carry out your TV set is not. US law is very different in this area. Also, you are not allowed to set traps, hazards, etc. that would harm trespassers, etc. If a person broke into your house looking for some cash and got bitten by your free-roaming cobra/croc/rottweiler/etc, you could be sued, and you'd probably lose. If the same person broke into your locked cage with a warning label on it and got bitten by your cobra, you could still be sue, but you’ll win. Of course, with legal fees, you could still lose $$$:-(

Electrical stuff- CSA does not certify electricians. CSA certifies products (not just electrical). Some products are not CSA approved for a variety of reasons (not marketed in Canada, low sales volume, and user-modified wiring requirements being a few). Such products CAN be inspected and certified through the Electrical Safety Authority of Ontario (or similar body in other provinces). Companies do this but individuals rarely do because of the cost. There are also 10 other certifying bodies such as ULC and ETL. Electrical work in your own home does not have to be done by a licensed electrician. It can be done by YOU. What does need to be done- you must take out a permit from the ESAO, and have your work inspected. I just had a final inspection done in January for our future classroom, and will be taking out another permit soon for my next phase of work. The permit cost varies with the amount of work you are doing, but expect it to cost around $120. BTW, the number to call for permits is 1-800-ESA-SAFE.

You do not need a business license to breed and sell reptiles! You also are not acting illegally if you don’t charge PST and GST. You don’t need to register for a GST number unless your business activities generate $30,000+ in gross sales. You don’t need to charge PST unless you are buying things and then reselling them for a profit. Reptiles you produce in your basement would not have PST applied. Exception- if you get a PST number so that you can purchase food/supplies PST exempt to produce your reptiles at a cheaper cost, you would need to charge PST on your sales.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[mykee]

Jeff and Colin, I have read a lot of posts and responded to just as many. I have to say that this is, by far, the most informative post I have read on this site to date. Your information, which surprisingly was backed up with fact, not heresay was refreshing to say the least. I commend you both on educated, informative posts. Thank you both kindly.

[HetForHuman]

Well i'll just say that about 2 years ago when i only had 1 snake, i had an incident where my heat lamp fell off of my snakes cage and onto the carpet while i was sleeping. I woke up to an awful burning smell and went to the living room to find the light on the floor and the carpet starting on fire. It burnt all the way down to the the plywood.

Now my father was renting me the house and when i told him what happened he thought we were gonna be screwed.

But he phoned his insurance company and they sent out an adjuster, i told him what happened, and he even seen the snake and everything in the living room. We ended up getting it covered by insurance no problem. Got the whole living room recarpeted and all i had to pay was a $500 deductable.

So i guess there are some out there that will insure you.

[C_Ellenzweig]

Thanks Jeff, you covered some very important points in your last post! I you guys are looking for advice on wiring and electrical code, Jeff seems to be the one to ask.

You do not need a business license to breed and sell reptiles! You also are not acting illegally if you don’t charge PST and GST. You don’t need to register for a GST number unless your business activities generate $30,000+ in gross sales. You don’t need to charge PST unless you are buying things and then reselling them for a profit. Reptiles you produce in your basement would not have PST applied. Exception- if you get a PST number so that you can purchase food/supplies PST exempt to produce your reptiles at a cheaper cost, you would need to charge PST on your sales.

This is kinda a grey area. It's true that you aren't doing anything illegal, but as far as the Insurance Company is concerned, you are running a business. If you are regularly selling any product (animals included) from an insured property, it is an increased risk. The fact that you are dealing with the public increases the risk of liability.

For example: you ship a snake to someone across the country. This animal is carrying a zoonose (disease contracted by humans, from animals). This person gets sick and died. Your insurance company is now liable.

Example 2: You breed boas. A potential customer decided that he want to come see your snakes before purchasing. He arrives with his 5 year old son. You are holding on of the breeders as they are look at the other animals. Suddenly, the 10' snake that you're holding strikes and latches on you the little boy's face. In this situation, the insurance company is also liable.

My advice - if you are anything more then a hobby breeder, I would let your insurance company know. If you are actually making profit, (even under $30,000) you are more than a hobby breeder. Hobbyist sell their animals to pay for their hobby. (either aquire different animals or pay for food, electricity, etc...) They sell to keep their hobby going. It is very difficult to actually turn a profit on reptiles (I'm sure a lot of breeders will agree). There are a lot of expenses involved and the demand is limited. Basically - If you are handing out business cards, booking tables at reptile shows, or even putting up a web site advertising yourself as a breeder you should probably let your insurance company know. However, if you are breeding animals in your basement occasionally posting them on classifieds, you probably don't have much to worry about.



ALSO - I checked again with our underwriting manager here at work and I was told that damage caused by Flexwatt heat tape IS COVERED by all insurance companies. (Provided negligence was not the cause. ie. improper connections, constant exposure to water, etc... As the product is approved by UL (Underwriters labratories) in the US, it is viewed as meeting comparable standards. The same product is sold in Europe under the name FlexAll. (where it also meets all standards) Imagine you moved from the US to Canada. You would probably own numerous products that aren't CSA approved because they aren't sold in Canada. Obviously you wouldn't be forced to stop using those items.

Colin

[Jeff Hathaway]

Good examples, Colin. I wasn't trying to suggest that insurance companies wouldn't be concered about business activities under $30K. They certainly are! I believe it was in the other insurance thread that I said if you are breeding and selling in any major manner, it would be considered a home based business, and most basic homeowner's policies won't cover it. My point was that it isn't against the law to do these things without GST and PST numbers. One thing I forgot to mention- under the Business Names Act, if you carry on business under any name but your own, you need to register said name as a sole proprietorship (or partnership), or you are breaking the law, albeit one that is rarely enforced. So saying you are "Jeff Hathaway" -breeder of reptiles is okay, but calling yourself "Jeff's Jungle", "Hathaway Herps", etc. would not be unless you register.

Thanks for the info on the way companies view Flexwatt!

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[MouseKilla]

Originally posted by C_Ellenzweig
First of all, I'd like to state that insurance companies are not the "scum of the earth".

Oh, come on now, most of us here have auto insurance in Ontario so that's a hard sell!

Insurance is one of the largest industries in the country and employs hundreds of thousands of people.[/B]

Yeah, right... so does cocaine, is that a beneficial industry too?

The only way they make money is by investing that large pool of money (In case you didn't notice, the stock markets weren't great over the last couple years). On top of that, insurance companies lose TONS of money on auto policies. There is not one profitable auto line in Canada.[/B]

Finally an admission from the insurance industry that it was their foolish trust in the market and poor investment choices are what is REALLY driving our auto insurance through the roof. Let me get this straight, you take the money I give you every month and gamble it all away and I get to absorb the lost projected profits? Guess there really is no risk of investing badly when you can slough the losses onto a captive market like the one in Ontario and other places not wise enough to adopt public auto insurance.

[Siretsap]

C_Ellenzweig

I was wondering, I have insurance with Meloche Monnex at the moment, and when I spoke with one of the representatives, they told me it didn't matter if I had reptiles. Now, I don't have a close on my contract saying I have reptiles. Is this ok? I only got a word from a women on the phone everything was ok if I had reptiles. Nothing written. Do you know if this particular (TD Meloche Monnex) will insure you if you have reptiles or not?
Thanks

[C_Ellenzweig]

Finally an admission from the insurance industry that it was their foolish trust in the market and poor investment choices are what is REALLY driving our auto insurance through the roof. Let me get this straight, you take the money I give you every month and gamble it all away and I get to absorb the lost projected profits? Guess there really is no risk of investing badly when you can slough the losses onto a captive market like the one in Ontario and other places not wise enough to adopt public auto insurance.

I fail to see that admission, but I'm sure you think you're pretty clever trying to turn that around. Actually (since you obviously can't grasp the concept) - Insurance companies MAKE money off investments. Insurance companies LOSE money on COR (Combined operating ratio - The cost of operating vs amount of premiums). This means they PAY OUT more then they take in from premiums. If you had any clue how the world works, you would realize that EVERY large company invests their assets. Do you really think any multi-national corporation would hire an investment advisor who they thought was a gamble? (There are LOTS of low and zero risk investments - i.e. governement bonds Good assumption, but you've obviously not too enlightened when it comes to investments) Of course not. The fact is that a few years ago, we were making 11%+ on our investments. Now we are making from 2 - 5%.

If you want to know why your insurance is so much, it's due to fraud and the increasing tort and medical costs. I guess your ignorance makes it easy to point your fingers and blame one industry for the problems created by our society.

Did you drive at all today? There were over 100 accidents in Ontario before 8:30am. Who do you think will pay to fix all those cars? I'll bet those drivers are loving their insurance companies now!

If you really want your insurance lowered, write to your local MP. Tell them that you want legislation that limits medical fees and caps settlements on minor and soft-tissue claims. Until that happens, insurance prices won't drop. We can't lower the price of a product we already lose money on. Look what happened in some areas on the east coast. The insurance companies were forced to lower their rate and most pulled their business out of those areas because they were losing too much money. This left consumers scrambling to find insurance and many had to turn to the "facility association" (a risk-sharing pool). Facility policies are more expensive, as they provide coverage to the people who nobody else will insure.

It is ignorance like this that gives the insurance industry a bad name.

[chas*e]

1) Don't tell your insurance company anything you don't have to. Be honest, but don't offer information.

2) If you have to have an inspection on your house, try to move your animals out temporarily. If that can't be done, be sure your wiring is legal (and neat, not tangled)


See if your fire claim is covered when they find any anomaly in your contents disclosure....you will be hit with ..THE BIG VOID...
If you don't agree with my, "Uneducated, opinion"..well, it is your prerogative....and I apologize.....charlie

[MouseKilla]

Originally posted by C_Ellenzweig
In fact, Canadian insurance companies pay out over $1.01 for every dollar they take in. (You can check this with the Insurance Bureau of Canada)

Forgot one thing, don't be fooled by the name, the Insurance Bureau of Canada is anything but an objective source for information. For those who don't know it's an organization of insurers, so you can go ahead and believe the thieves when you ask them how much they've stolen if you like. If you want the real score without the industry's self-interested rhetoric just compare rates between the provinces that have public auto insurance and those that don't.

[C_Ellenzweig]

I was wondering, I have insurance with Meloche Monnex at the moment, and when I spoke with one of the representatives, they told me it didn't matter if I had reptiles. Now, I don't have a close on my contract saying I have reptiles. Is this ok? I only got a word from a women on the phone everything was ok if I had reptiles. Nothing written. Do you know if this particular (TD Meloche Monnex) will insure you if you have reptiles or not?

Siretsap - I have heard that Meloche Monnex insures herp owners. If you were told by a rep, I doubt they would misinform you. The best thing you can do is call and ask again. When you do, write down the rep's name, what they tell you and the EXACT date and time you called. This way, if they do contest it after a claim is presented, you have evidence of the conversation.

You don't need any special clause on the contract stating you own reptiles. (Unless you have them as a scheduled item. You would not schedule reptiles unless they were extremely rare and worth several thousand dollars) Scheduled items are those in which you have bought specific coverage for. Eg a $10,000 ring. You would then send a reciept/appraisal to the insurance company to keep on record. If you even had a claim, scheduled items are basically replaced with no questions asked, as the insurance company already has proof of ownership and value.

The only clauses (of this type) you would find on your contract are exclusions. Unless your contact specifically says you are not covered if you own herps, you are covered. However, most policies do exclude any damage cause DIRECTLY by animals. (Therefore a fire caused by a faulty heat lamp is covered, as it was not directly caused by the animal)

[MouseKilla]

Originally posted by C_Ellenzweig


If you really want your insurance lowered, write to your local MP. Tell them that you want legislation that limits medical fees and caps settlements on minor and soft-tissue claims.


Oh no, not trickle down economics!!! AHHHH!!! By that logic if General Motors built their cars in Chinese sweatshops for $5 each I could expect that they would voluntarily drop their prices to proportionately... hmmm a $45 Corvette sounds nice, tell me another one man. The fact is that when business makes money it doesn't kick any back to the consumer but rather continues to soak the customer as much as they can get away with while pocketing any additional cost savings.

Just wondering how long they held your eyelids open and forced you to watch insurance company propaganda vidoes. hahaha

PS. Yes, as a matter of fact I am very clever in my opinion! lol!

[C_Ellenzweig]

Well guess what clever guy... here's a kick in the nuts for ya. Public insurance cost approximately $200 more per policy. If you actually did some research, it probably wouldn't be so easy to make you look stupid. Everything I have said, I have backed up. You on the, other hand have yet to substantiate ANYTHING you'e said. Here is the proof that public insurance is more expensive - produced by the Fraser Institute - The most respected independent body for consumer awareness in Canada. (Not associated with the insurance industry or government in any way)

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=nr&id=561

BTW - You can download the full report from a link in that article. It's actually pretty interesting.

Oh no, not trickle down economics!!! AHHHH!!! By that logic if General Motors built their cars in Chinese sweatshops for $5 each I could expect that they would voluntarily drop their prices to proportionately... hmmm a $45 Corvette sounds nice, tell me another one man.

Wow buddy, you're not even comparing apples and oranges, you're comparing apples and dogs. What does "Trickle down econimics" have to do with the cost of operate a Property Liability Carrier in Canada? What does a $45 chinese corvette have to do with insurance?? I guess you're hoping that B-S will baffle minds. Or maybe you think people will be impressed with your vast (and so far incorrect) knowledge of business and economics. If you were actually as intelligent as you would like people to believe, you would probably have enough money that insurance costs wouldn't concern you. Obviously, that isn't the case.

Insurance premiums are regulated by FSCO (Financial Securities Commission of Ontario). Every year, every insurance company states their earning, cost of operations and intended rate. These rates are either approved or rejected by FSCO, a government organization. There are laws in place that prevent insurance companies from making too much profit on premiums.

You clearly have nothing to back up anything you say. You're doing nothing more than spewing ignorance. You can say whatever you like, but with every post, you lose more and more credibility. Keep it coming. I have access to every insurance related study ever done, more than enough to refute anything you could ever possibly come up with.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Hi Colin,

Here's a question for you, based on your previous statement "...most policies do exclude any damage cause DIRECTLY by animals. (Therefore a fire caused by a faulty heat lamp is covered, as it was not directly caused by the animal)"

What if your free-roaming iguana knocks over a lamp (heat lamp, desk lamp, doesn't matter) which is the cause of the fire that burns down your house?

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Lisa]

And damage caused by wild life? Ie rats chew through your electrical.

As for public insurance being more expensive... my practical experience says otherwise. I currently have basic coverage with rbc. When I was in vancover BC my insurance was 2/3s the cost of what i'm currently paying in Ontario, and bc considered me a new driver due to a glitch with transfering my licence from Ontario. when I moved to saskatchewan i was paying 1/2 of what I pay now and I was getting full coverage with a lower deductable. You can't say it's population density because when I lived in vancouver the population density was higher then where I am now in rural ontario.


I wish I could have kept my Saskatchewan Insurance but that could get stickey.

[C_Ellenzweig]

Hey Jeff,

If your iguana knocked your lamp over, you would be covered. It's an accident - that's what insurance is for. Fire is always covered.

Damage by wildlife is in no way covered. If you have an attic full of racoons, you're screwed.

As for public insurance being cheaper, this is a misconception. Public insurance is actually more expensive, just not on the surface. Who do you think pays the thousands of government employees to run organizations like the ICBC (Insurance Corp. of BC - government insurance) You pay those employees via provincial taxes. Same goes for the other operating expenses. The only thing that your premiums pay for in a public system is claims. On top of that, payout and benefits from public insurance are substantially less.

Also, I'm not sure how long ago you moved to Ontario, but over the last couple years, the price of insurance from the public sector has risen steeply. They have realized that their product was underpriced and now are under-reserved. (Reserves are money set aside for potential payouts. When you file a claim, the insurance company will set reserves, effectively locking up that money. As new info comes in [medical reports, repair estimates, etc...], the reserves are adjusted accordingly. This is to ensure the company can afford to pay all their claimants)

Honestly, there is no way I can explain it in this forum. If you truly are interested, check out the "Fraser Institute Report". In the article, there is a link to the full report. You seem like a pretty smart guy. I'm sure you'll have no trouble following it. I will post the link again.

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/shared/readmore.asp?sNav=nr&id=561

[C_Ellenzweig]

And also, you gotta remember that there is a lot less to hit in Sask!

[marisa]

Thanks for all this information. Especially about the heat tape thing....many people have told me that if heat tape causes a fire, you are basically screwed. But apparently (if i read this correctly) that is not always the case.

Anyways thanks for all that info.
Marisa

[chas*e]

You can try whatever you want when it comes to receiving liability/fire insurance compensation for claimed damages...you can cry and jump up and down and jump through all the hoops they want you to jump through..but if they can find a way NOT to pay they will NOT PAY..PERIOD....an agent will say whatever he has to say to get his commission. If there is a person or people out there that can say whatever they want about the ethical and legal aspect to the GOOD in Insurance Companies... they are laughable. Liability insurance is government backed theivery...nuf said.....oh ya If you believe that I am moron to state this..I am loving it moronically...lol

[Lisa]

Originally posted by C_Ellenzweig
And also, you gotta remember that there is a lot less to hit in Sask!

Yes but there's alot more to hit in vancouver. and that's not commenting on the other drivers abilities.

[Cruciform]

If we start to see a trend of ridiculously high claim amounts like the US, I really dread to see what it will do to rates.
We're currently plaintiffs in a lawsuit, and I wouldn't even consider asking for 6 digits, let alone the 7 or 8 digit payouts that get approved in civil courts down south.

[C_Ellenzweig]

You can try whatever you want when it comes to receiving liability/fire insurance compensation for claimed damages...you can cry and jump up and down and jump through all the hoops they want you to jump through..but if they can find a way NOT to pay they will NOT PAY..PERIOD....an agent will say whatever he has to say to get his commission.

Once again Chas*e, you've demonstrated your complete ignorance and lack of knowledge. Insurance brokers are the ones who make commission. They sell insurance. Claims adjusters handle claims. They are paid salary, not commission. Adjusters make the same amount whether they payout or deny a claim. Their job is in no way to "screw you". Their job is to reach a fair settlement. If you try to screw us, we will win. But otherwise claims are usually settled fairly.Your broker has no say at all. Brokers do not work for the insurance company. They get paid for sales, not low claim records. Adjusters DO NOT look for a way not to pay, but they also investigate questionable claims.

In fact, as a Claims Audit Analyst, I participate in claims reviews regularily. In a recent study, we found a few files that we felt were underpaid for various reasons (out of several hundred). We immediately sent the insureds cheques (for a total of a few thousand $$) for what we felt was fair. These claims were all closed for a long period of time. The insureds were in no way expecting OR requesting any money for us. So, Chas*e, if that's thievery, sign me up to be a victim.

When it comes down to it, you are probably bitter because you tried to inflate a claim and got denied. Either that, or you are just one of those paranoid people who believes that everyone is out to get them. Either way, nobody needs to hear your constant senseless babbling. You don't know what you're talking about. Period.

Spend some time looking at Claims Satisfation Ratings and you'll quickly realize that most people who have filed claims in Canada and happy with their settlements.

Oh and by the way, there is no such thing as liability/fire insurance. They are two seperate lines. Do you even understand the definition of "liability"? Obviously not, so here you go:

liability: The state of being liable

liable: Bound or obliged in law or equity; *responsible; answerable*; as, the surety is liable for the debt of his principal.

What does that have to do with a fire in your own home. Liability applies to damage you cause to others. Once again - you have no clue at all.

[C_Ellenzweig]

If we start to see a trend of ridiculously high claim amounts like the US, I really dread to see what it will do to rates.

That is exactly what is happening in Ontario. The court are issueing higher and higher rewards. The legislation that was put in place to reduce benefit payouts (bill 198) has become so "watered-down" that it is actually doing the opposite. We need legislation that puts a cap on pain & suffering payouts and soft tissue injuries.

We're currently plaintiffs in a lawsuit, and I wouldn't even consider asking for 6 digits, let alone the 7 or 8 digit payouts that get approved in civil courts down south.

I'm not saying that nobody falls through the cracks. There are people out there who are entitled to compensation and have not recieved it. (You very well may be one of them, I don't the specifics of your case) There are avenues available to pursue this compensation. (Ombudsman, courts, mediation, arbitration, etc...) I'm glad to see that you are being realistic with your figures. I hate how people feel they should be rewarded because of an unfortunate incident. The insurance company didn't injure them in any way, yet they feel it should be rewarded. (even though it costs all insureds in the end)

Best of luck to you and I truly hope you recieve any money you are entitled to.

Colin

[MouseKilla]

Insurance dude,

It's fitting that the same person that would point to a study done by the HEAVILY right wing biased Fraser Institute (isn't a guy named Mike Harris somehow associated with them? Need I say more about the "institute"?) would equate wealth with intellect? Consider for a second that some intelligent people may choose to put their minds toward something productive and beneficial to society rather than toward their own greed.

Point to all the skewed studies done by the greedheads at right wing think tanks and the lies told by the industry itself you like, it won't change the simple fact that a public system is cheaper for the driver because it isn't designed to bilk the captive consumer.

The bottom line is that all companies are designed for a single purpose and that is to generate profit for their investors. If it were true that insurance companies weren't raking in profits then it begs the question: Why are haven't they gone bankrupt and left town? Is this charity work they're doing?

I won't spout insults back at you though because I understand that why you're getting so upset. If the truth gets out about the racket you're in you'll likely all be rounded up and thrown in prison and if I were the one filling my pockets on the backs of people with real jobs I wouldn't want that to happen to me. Then you would all have to work for a living and what could be worse than that?lol!

[chas*e]

To C. Ellenzweig ..OK.. I am not going to sit by and be called a thief by some jerk like yourself...I have never inflated an insurance claim..you moron...I am not going to listen/read your diluted brainwashed crap any longer from an ******* such as yourself...ps..If you want to see bitter..give me a phone call or better yet meet me somewhere..I am sure there will be an insurance claim there somewhere...charlie..1-905-571-6090....

[MouseKilla]

Easy there Chuck, remember you're dealing with organized crime here... you don't want some goons from the Fraser Institute showing up at your house. LOL!! The Fraser Institute ahahahahaha I'm still laughing about that one...

[chas*e]

Hey ..screw this goof...I PMed him to meet me for a nice Hot cup of coffee...the wimp will not show up ..he is stuck to his computer terminal from the porn he orders...cant see his credit card number too much K-Y on it.....man, that jerk got me going...lol

[C_Ellenzweig]

Wow! You're pretty defensive! I never called you a thief. (Although, you may have a guilty conscience, I don't know what you've done in your life) I suggested that you may be bitter OR you may be paranoid that everyone is out to get you. Do you honestly think that the insurance industry somehow rounded up tens of thousands of cruel, immoral people to bilk you out of your money?!? That's rediculous!!

I am being completely honest with you. I have nothing to gain from lying. I don't care if you have insurance. I haven't even mentioned who I work for, so it's not like I am trying to promote my company. In fact, I have supported checking out several of our competitors in this forum.

I have to pay for insurance too. It's not cheap for me either. I have one at-fault rear-ender a year and a half ago (doesn't matter how much damage is done, rate goes up the same amount) and it costs me $3500 a year and that's with a 20% employee discount. So, don't think it doesn't affect me. I would love to be paying half of that.

The fact of the matter is that you are doing nothing more than pointing fingers. If you want you be proactive, I have already mentioned the direction you should take. Write to your local MP and demand legislation that caps payouts. The reason insurance is so expensive is because with the current bill, people often get $20,000 for whiplash. Two weeks off work and a new boat. Paralegels screw us every way possible. As of recent, they will finally be governed by the Law Society of Upper Canada. Hopefully, that will help reduce fraud - thus reducing premiums.
Paralegals aren't the only problem. Fraud is widespread. You know those tapes on Real TV. The ones where they record a guy who claims he can't work, moving a fridge. Our investigation department has a whole room of tapes like that. As I've said before, 10% or more of claims contain some element of fraud.

Once again, I have nothing to gain by lying to you. A few years ago I felt the same as you did about insurance companies. Now after working in the industry for a few companies, I have had a chance to observe their practices. Believe me, the insurance industry is made up of thousands of caring people. They do not want to screw you. They have friends and family who have been through the claims process. The employees in my company donate close to a hundred grand to United Way every year, out of their own pockets. (which the company matches) That's well over $500 per employee. As well, they are constantly organizing charity events. These people obviously care about about others, yet you don't hesitate to call them (and myself) thieves without actually knowing what you are talking about. Then, after calling myself and my co-worker thieves, you have the audacity to get defensive when I suggest that you MAY be bitter towards an insurance company. Maybe a friend of yours tried to get something extra out of their claim and got caught. I don't know, but you seem pretty bitter, considering you claim to have never had filed claim. And then you actually imply a threat. That's real mature buddy!

For anyone out there that appreciates the advice from someone in the industry who actually cares, I'm happy to provide to. (Even though again, I have nothing to gain at all) For anyone else who is closed-minded and determind to prove that we are getting screwed by the insurance companies, I'm no longer going to bother wasting my time with you. I started off trying to help, but obviously there is no point with some people.

[MouseKilla]

It's easier to believe that corporate greed is at play here than it is to believe that fraud and litigation costs are the reason many Ontario drivers have seen their premiums double or triple in the last two years. Right, there has been that much more fraud and litigation in that short time span. If you're going to tell a lie at least make it a plausible one.

As for how you gain from regurgitating skewed and biased "studies" and statistics to explain away this shameless gouging, only you would know that info.

I'm still shaking my head about you referencing the corrupt and biased Fraser Institute.... This is the same bunch that has been spreading lies on behalf of corporate interests across the country not just biased in favour of private auto insurance. They did fake, junk science so-called "studies" in favour of private electricity, private health care and private education. Anyone else see a theme here? Corporate Canada wants to make money off any and all public assets they can get their greedy little fingers into. They dress up their lies with talk of "consumer choice" and lower taxes but in the end we have seen with auto insurance gouging, and the collosal failure of electricity privatization that it's really all about greed.

[Swampwalker]

This has got to be one of the most informative and interesting threads that I have read in a long time. Thanks Jeff and Colin for all the usefull and practical information.

[Cruciform]

I, for one, would like to thank C_Ellenzweig for the useful info that was provided.

chas*e on the other hand, is being a serious dumbass. Somehow they took a thread seeking answers people could use, and turned it into a bitchfest against insurance, and then a name calling contest. Grow up.

I don't like having to be forced to pay insurance by government decree. I think that stifles competition, which in turn allows lawyers to say "Everyone has insurance, let's get the biggest payouts we can for our 30% cut." Without the laws that say I need car insurance though, I'd still buy it. During my commute each week in the winter I usually manage to avoid at least 2 major accidents. Drivers eating, talking on cell phones, or using bald all seasons during a snowstorm pop out of parking lots or drift into oncoming traffic without a care in the world. If I'm going to lose my car or my livelihood because of some idiot, I can at least count on my family to be supported during any downtime or, worst case, death.

If you have a big objection to insurance, try this. Don't buy it and stay off the road, since car insurance is the only obligatory insurance purchase needed.

I pay $1000 a year for a '99 Honda Civic 2 door, with a previous claim of $800 dollars for vandalism from a thief. The entire console had to be replaced. Insurance went DOWN the next year.

Home insurance is $20 dollars a month for $25,000 coverage. That would easily cover my electronics and computer equipment (which with the way prices drop due to technological progress would cost even less now). Furniture, good hardwood stuff, can be found very cheaply if you know where to go.

So if you have issues with your insurance company take it up with them. Not with someone who posts here to help other users understand coverage for reptile owners.

[PortCreditPets]

This is Chas*e....I Pm ed this collin jerk to say that a differance of opinion didn't mean anything and no hard feelings but NO he had to go on about whatever with rude PMs to myself...anyways..screw you and him...same to you...don't worry you will not hear from me on this stupid topic again...thanks for the support from this site and it's members....I have never been anything but helpful to all reptile owners and the reptile community...I have never seen this guy be anything period on any aspect of herpetocultue...how many groups or societies did you or colin start or support...anyways ..goodbye...charlie

[UpscaleBoas]

sorry..thinking about ....had to erase my post..could get me introuble....professionally

[mykee]

Is this charade finally over? Anyways, thanks again to those of you who imparted information into this topic, the first half of this thread was informative.

[Cruciform]

If they were rude PMs you didn't need to bring them into this conversation between several people.

What does KY-Jelly and porn have to do with people comparing notes on their insurance?

I have no issue with posts in any other threads I've seen you post to. But if you think that bringing up groups or societies you've started or supported absolves you from any responsibilty to treat others with respect within a public forum, then some serious re-evaluation is needed.

If someone is out of line in their posts, I'll call them on it. Its not a popularity contest. If you get your temper up, wait a bit before posting and try something constructive. Especially since you're representing a business when you post in here.

Also, please refer to your own signature.

[C_Ellenzweig]

I, for one, would like to thank C_Ellenzweig for the useful info that was provided.

You're welcome, I'm happy to help!

chas*e on the other hand, is being a serious dumbass. Somehow they took a thread seeking answers people could use, and turned it into a bitchfest against insurance, and then a name calling contest. Grow up.

Can you believe that, after straight-out calling myself and all of my co-workers theives and "the scum of the earth", this guy gets defensive when I imply that he may be bitter towards insurance companies. He even goes as far as to call me on (even posting his phone number) and send me email implying threats. That's real mature tough guy!

This is Chas*e....I Pm ed this collin jerk to say that a differance of opinion didn't mean anything and no hard feelings but NO he had to go on about whatever with rude PMs to myself...anyways..screw you and him...same to you...don't worry you will not hear from me on this stupid topic again...thanks for the support from this site and it's members....I have never been anything but helpful to all reptile owners and the reptile community...I have never seen this guy be anything period on any aspect of herpetocultue...how many groups or societies did you or colin start or support...anyways ..goodbye...charlie

This is simply a lie. The only private message I received that an email. I would post it, but it would show up as mostly ***'s. Honestly buddy, look at the posts. You don't have much support on this thread. The people here want to know if their property is covered, not if you can quickly make up some BS about a topic you know nothing about.

Do starting a snake group in your mom's garage make you a herpetologist? Does it actually have anything to do with your experience? If you are so experienced and connected, why are you emailing me looking for hot reptiles? You obviously aren't too well known amongst Canadian herp keepers, or you would have lots of connections.

Hey ..screw this goof...I PMed him to meet me for a nice Hot cup of coffee...the wimp will not show up ..he is stuck to his computer terminal from the porn he orders...cant see his credit card number too much K-Y on it.....man, that jerk got me going...lol

If you don't have anything intelligent to say... don't say anything at all.

If anyone else has any insurance questions, PM me & I'll do my best to answer them. Obviously there it's an issue to post them in public forums.

Colin

[C_Ellenzweig]

This is simply a lie. The only private message I received that an email. I would post it, but it would show up as mostly ***'s. Honestly buddy, look at the posts. You don't have much support on this thread. The people here want to know if their property is covered, not if you can quickly make up some BS about a topic you know nothing about.

I have to apologize about this. Chas*e did send me a PM trying to clear things up. I just didn't recieve the email announcing it, as my inbox was full.

Colin

[Vengeance]

Sorry to resurrect this thread but I have a question based on the information I gathered from this thread.

My questions is this, ok so some house insurance companies will cover reptiles as part of the policy and some won't. What about in cases where the animals are illegal to own in a particular municipality?

Common sense makes me think that if a by-law states the animal is illegal to own then no insurance company, even if they have a policy that doesn't exclude reptiles, would not cover reptiles in this instance. Also possibly because it is illegal to own said reptile would any equipment used or any accident's pertaining to that reptile void the house insurance?

Thanks

[Lisa]

you hit it right on the head vengeance. no coverage.

[Vengeance]

See now here is the Grey area I'm kinda confused about. According to what was said in this thread, if a light or heat pad malfunctions by no fault of my own or my reptile then the house insurance should still be valid. But if the reptile is the reason for the fire then I'm not covered. But because the reptile being illegal it obviously wouldn't be covered for the fire no matter what, but in the case of an accident where the equipment was being used properly but being used for heating an illegal animal would I still be covered or would the insurance company go with the logic, if I wasn't keeping illegal animlas then the fire wouldn't have started, so no coverage.

I've just bought a new house and I'd hate to think that if the place ever caught fire I would lose everything I invested because I own reptiles so I'm just trying to get everything straight. Going to call an insurance company and see what they have to say, without giving my name ofcourse.

[C_Ellenzweig]

Good thinking - give em a call. That situation is a tricky one that I don't know the answer to. The fact that it's a bylaw makes it questionable. If it was a criminal act, it would definately void the policy - but it isn't.

[Vengeance]

C_Ellenzweig you sound as if you work for an insurance company, if that is the case does your company say it's ok to have snakes? I just went through 8 diffrent insurance brokers, none of them would insure me because of the fact I had snakes. I'm affraid to mention the fact they are illegal because of the by-law. MY current insurance company that we have on our apt gave us the ok, but I went to 8 major insurance companies and the second I mentioned snakes there was no way they would insure me.

[Nicki]

Just wanted to say "Good Work" to Colin, and an excellent post, Jeff.

I also work in insurance, and everything Colin has said is correct.

It's not easy to interpret policies. Trust me! The company is not trying to screw anyone. But if they don't know ahead of time the risk they are taking, they don't look lightly on it. For example, if we issue a house policy, and later learn they have a welding business from their garage, they may refuse a fire claim due to the welding. The insureds should have told the company they were doing this, and obtained the correct coverage for this type of risk, which SHOULD cost more, because it's more of a risk than a regular homeowner would be.

Claims are paid to place you in the same situation you were before your loss. You are not allowed to profit/make money from a claim, you may only recoupe your losses.

It is a form of fraud to not disclose pertinent info to your insurance agent. Our application include a question asking if you have wild animals. If I'd said no, and my heat lamp burned my house down, I can see that they may refuse my claim, because they didn't know the risk they were taking with my policy.

However, as far as I can tell, the company is most concerned with liability. They just want to know that your little milksnake is not going to strangle your next-door neighbour! And like it or not, herps are not something the general public knows ANYTHING about! So, you must do your best to educate people in a professional way, if you want them to understand enough to give you a chance.

[Cruciform]

Vengeance,

I previously asked Pilot Insurance if they had an issue with reptiles, and they said they would want to know the size but otherwise have no policy against them in effect.

Since I haven't actually insured my animals, I don't know if this would change if I were to actually try and insure them.

But if you are insured elsewhere you could always inquire with Pilot, and see what results you get.

[bidden]

first 3 pages of this was great info, thanks all. I'm thinking I might give the old insurance company a call(concidering I live @ my parents place now) wouldn't want to screw them over later on if something were to happen.