interesting debate topic

[Aaron_S]

I was surfing some articles on another site and came across one that was talking about a teacher who was going to be feeding some unwanted puppies that were going to be euthenized to a boa during one of his science classes. Needless to say it was stopped after compliants from parents and it has been said some students even cried about the idea.
In the comments that followed the article an interesting debate started up. One side obviously says it's wrong. The other side came from one person saying that he or she didn't condone the act of feeding the puppies to the snake but to show another side to the one track minded people. This person went on to say that majority of people are just being too emotional and hypocritcal about it. That noone does anything for the untrivial number of puppies and kittens being killed by a humane society then their bodies going to waste but flip out when someone is putting their body to use and continuing the circle of life. This person went by the saying "I eat what I kill and I kill what I eat." They were saying we should be putting those bodies to use instead of just wasting. We should be responsible for the lives we take.

I see this persons views and agree with them. I do not condone the pracitce of feeding puppies or kittens to snakes or other reptiles. One reason stated by this person was that herbivores supply better nutrition then carnivores do and that if this type of thing is in the public eye it really puts a negative look on the reptiles and the keepers.

Note: I took this persons arguements and placed them into my words. So if you see the article and the comments and ideas aren't the same that is because I changed them or added or took away from them.

[LurkerAccount]

There shouldn't even be a question about it, if your going to kill it because some a**hole doesn't want the reasponsibility of takeing after it, then atleast put it to use. But don't make it suffer....

[BAZ]

I think that in the West we have a very different way of looking at cats and dogs than people who live in the East. For example, in India there are dogs all over the place roaming the streets... they are quite a nuicance actually and you will see dog road kill like you see groundhogs on the road here in Canada. A dog was hit by a car while I was staying at the Croc Bank and it stumbled into the Croc Bank. Its leg was broken in 2 places. Now no one is going to take it to the vet coz a vet costs money and the average person there does not have the money to pay for these kind of medical bills. Secondly I don't think they want all these dogs around. So the dog was recycled.... it was fed to the crocs that night.

Now I know when I first found out what will happen to the dog I was a bit shocked but when i thought about it I was just being ethnocentric. If I put myself in the shoes of the people there and lived there I would probably have done the same thing.

[Siretsap]

This debate has been around for ages. And did you know, that most of those animals taht are put down by humane societies, do serve as dried food for other pets? So in the end, they still end up as food, so why not feed some reptiles with it?

[Aaron_S]

Well now there is no debate:P somebody go against everyone here.

[Darlene]

This was a huge debate here not too long ago. It turned into such a flame war that the thread was completely deleted. Due to that you may not get too many people who are eagerly to debate this topic again.
BTW...I, too, agree that those animals that are being destroyed should not be wasted.

[Aaron_S]

I think it's possible to have a civil debate if you are careful to not let anything become personal.

[Darlene]

LOL We also had a debate about that at the same time & due to that thread. It most certainly is possible. I had very much been enjoying the other debate on this topic. I was able to really join in for once as the kids were away. I love a good debate !! It was going quite well & strong when I left to go to work. When I came home it was gone. We shall see how it goes this time.

[reverendsterlin]

a dead animal whether mouse or man becomes no more than meat.

[TheRedDragon]

I can see how it may be disturbing to some people, but, the puppy was going to die anyway, may as well provide nutrition for an animal that's staying alive. *shrug*

[Dozer]

Okay fine, for all the dog owners who post "its only meat", when your dog dies, give it to me so i can feed my snakes :)

[red bootz]

mmmmmmmmmm, puppies...

[MouseKilla]

I guess it's a question of whether you believe that certain forms of life are more valuable than others. Is a cat or dog any different than a rat or mouse? Some may not see the difference. Is a mealworm any less alive than any of those? What about an ant or a germ or bacteria for that matter? It's all life right? Well yeah, it is but I think that most of us would have a harder time hitting a cat or dog with a hammer than we would have bonking a mouse and it would be easier still to step on an ant. We don't have the least bit of sympathy for the bacteria we kill with cleansers in our homes. It's all life but we instinctively place different values on different forms of life. It's not a difficult question for most of us whether we should kill a cancer to save a person. Some people would have a hard time killing mice so that their snake can live, others won't. Some of us can whack bunnies all day and may even be able to switch to kittens if we have to. I think most of us would rather kill a "lower" form of life where possible meaning we would rather kill the rat than the kitten. I think that's where people get upset, when they see a more valuable animal being used as feed it seems cruel. Of course if the things are dead in the first place...?

[Invictus]

I think feeding the puppy to a boa is one thing - the puppy is going to die anyway, so sure, put it to good use. But does a class full of young students REALLY need to see this? Hell no! Yes, we think of dogs and cats differently in the West as Baz said. As such, we should not make kids, who may have puppies themselves, watch the slaughter of a puppy. Just because herpers don't find things like that overly disturbing doesn't mean school kids need to be subjected to it.

[Siretsap]

I agree with Jesus. :-p
Amen

[asphyxia]

I am totally aganst kittens being used to feed snakes.

They are hard enough to find for muskie.

err, umm ya, you are all talking about dead already right?

nevermind

Splash, splash...
Brian

[Aaron_S]

I agree with invictus here.To do it in private is one thing but to do it in front of students I think is wrong. The fact that it shows the general population "evil" in their eyes.

Mousekilla-You say a more valuable life of an animal. But that's just it. People are putting different values on animals that they see more commonly and cause they are "cute and fuzzy." I also believe the fact that reptiles are one if not the only pet that eats whole prey items without it being processed. It was said there is dog in some dog food but noone really notices it.
Look at feral cats and dogs destroying ecosystems..the government if at all is trying to get rid of them in a humane way while maybe the kane toad in australia is being killed out right cause it isn't as loved as a cat or dog,feral or not. If we kill these feral animals I think we should use their bodies aswell to the best of our ability. If we poison them we can't use the meat but maybe the skin or bones.

[drewlowe]

So nobody gets offended NOBODY is talking about putting your loving fido in the snakes belly. It's about dogs that are going to be put to sleep because nobody wants them and they are going to be put to sleep anyway. I personally if i had a snake that big yes i would feed it animals that are going to die any way. Parasite free of course and only if it was nutrietionaly ok for my animal in question. will probly post more tomorrow seeing as it is quitting time for me now.

[SerpentLust]

I like the point MouseKilla brought up about it all goes down to whether you think a cat or dogs life is worth more than say a mealworm, mouse, rat, etc. I personally value all life the same. I've had many pet mice, so it's kind of sad to even feed MICE to my snakes. But all in all, the snake needs to eat. If the cat or dog is going to be euthanised anyways, they don't really have that animals life in high regards anyways, so why not make it useful. Carnivorous animals need to eat, and as the owner of such an animal, I guess it's up to you where to draw the line, whether you think mice and rats are lower beings or less alive is completely up to you. To me, all life is the same but I also respect that the animal needs to eat.

In conclusion...Here kitty kitty kitty

Jenn

[reptilesalonica]

Because our emotions are so strong and deep with the higher class mammal pets, that doesn't mean that they are not meat when they die. I love dogs and cats and all my life i had dogs except the last 7 years (but i will have one soon-a pincher doberman-i cannot live without dogs).
When my Doberman died, 8 years ago, i felt like i lost a good friend, because, we WERE 2 good friends. I was crying that day and i was feeling awful. If that time i had a big snake i could never feed my dead dog to it, nor give it to another person to do that.
Beyond our emotions we must understand nature's ways. We are children of mother earth and father sun and understanding our mother we are closer to our selves.
I think that we humanize a lot many things in our lives, from living beings (names to snakes), to material possesions (cars etc.)
If those dogs were going to die or they were unwanted by anyone then i cannot see anything wrong in feeding them to a snake. In other countries humans eat dogs.
~Greg~

[Darlene]

It is true that where we are in the world & how we value life has alot to do with it. The way we are raised is also a factor. I grew up in the country & have worked on many different types of farms. The slaughter of livestock is something that I am more then used to. Funny thing is though while I can walk out to the coop & dispatch of a chicken for supper without batting an eye; I get so squeamish to whack a mouse that I am tracking down a place to get dry ice instead. Go figure !!

[Siretsap]

In my opinion, all living things are to have equal rights. Just the other day, I picked up a seagul with a broken wing on the side of the road. I called the humane society in my region. Told them I had found a bird with a broken wing and they were willing to come pick it up till I told them it was a seagul. Then the guy told me, oh it's only a seagul, well we won't pick him up......

People don't mind to let animals die when they don't associate with it. But if I would have said I found a night owl, they would have came. Why? Doesn't a seagul deserve as much respect as a night owl?

So in my opinion, if we feed dead rats or mice to our snakes, then I do not see the problem in feeding DEAD pups or kittens.

[reptilesalonica]

IF the students are not to young, then i don't see why they shouldn't see the killing. First of all the teacher must explain to them the whole situation and the purpose of doing such thing. Must explain that the dog(s) are going to die and that the snake is not a bad creature that loves to kill, but it's just a carnivorous creature that needs to feed. Then, i don't see why the students shouldn't see the killing and they must let to their humanized emotions, continue to imagine theirselves outside of everything that has to do with nature, her ways and the instinct of those animals. It is hard but it is the truth. We shouldn't raise our children so fragile. The real world IS pain among happiness. We ought to show them that part of life but gradually and explaining all their questions.
~Greg~

[Bryce Masuk]

"In my opinion, all living things are to have equal rights."

Really? Including alge Fruit Bacteria and so on?
Not trying to be a Smart *** Im just wondering where you draw the line.

Since no one is really Looking on from Different views what if we changed thos puppys to Unwanted Children that Have no Chance What then? If you see ALL Life as equal Would you have a problem with that?

[Aaron_S]

I see your point reptilesalonica on the students idea. BUT I still don't agree with it. Some of those students might not be able to see our side of the arguement and like I said before it still isn't good for the general public to see this. No matter what...it just makes more hate towards our hobbies and the animals we love. I don't think even if the teacher told them why it was happening they would act differently. They just do not see what we see.

Drewlowe-I am glad you mentioned that we are talking about UNWANTED,on the brink of death by injection puppies or kittens. Not somebodies household pet. But what if that household pet was put in the pound and nobody wanted it? Then what do we do with that body? Just leave it? I say give it to a zoo and feed the crocodillians or large python or anaconda.

[MouseKilla]

Serpentlust,

It's true, I asked that question but I asked it thinking that it had an obvious logical conclusion. That being that it's easy to see that some life forms ARE more valuable than others. Maybe it's hard to decide whether a mouse is any different than a mealworm but it should be easier to decide whether a human baby is more valuable than a piglet of the same weight. The idea that all life is equally valuable is simply ridiculous. Would you have to sit and think about whether to kill a threatening bee who's sting could potentially kill an allergic loved one? Hmmm I really like Mom but ya know that bee has a right to exist too... Ridiculous, you'd squash the bee without even thinking about it because Mom is infinitely more important than the bee. Extreme example, sure but I think it's pretty extreme to say that all life is of equal value. Now I don't have a problem with making use of dead meat, hell when I'm dead go ahead and feed me to whatever, it's all the same to the dead, crocs, snakes or worms and maggots once yer dead yer dead. All I'm saying is it is BETTER to use a mouse than a puppy if it comes down to killing the thing for feed because a mouse is a lower life form than the dog is.

[LurkerAccount]

In my opinion, all living things are to have equal rights.

Tell me Siretsap, have you ever had a piece of bacon? How bout some fried chicken? They are some of the "higher" and moreintelagent animials there, however, there are no animals treated with more cruelty and disrespect in the world, billions are tortured and sluaghterd every year.
Yet people don't give them a second thought.
But an already dead dog, or a cat, heaven forbid!!

[Aaron_S]

aaashrimp-I believe Siretsap said feeding a dead puppy or kitten is ok in his or her books.

Mouskilla-You are doing what all others do...putting dogs and kittens lives on a "higher" plain then a rabbit or possibly a rat of the same size.

Now your bee analogy has a flaw in it and that is Mom could easily go inside or try and get away from the bee without killing it.

[LurkerAccount]

Aaron_S, I am aware that she said feeding a dead puppy or kitten is ok in his or her books.
However, that had absolutly nothing at all to do with what I was saying...

[Siretsap]

Originally posted by Bryce Masuk
"In my opinion, all living things are to have equal rights."

Really? Including alge Fruit Bacteria and so on?
Not trying to be a Smart *** Im just wondering where you draw the line.

Since no one is really Looking on from Different views what if we changed thos puppys to Unwanted Children that Have no Chance What then? If you see ALL Life as equal Would you have a problem with that?

Well if the fruit is an endangered species, then yes, would you be able to live without any strawberries or grapes?... Of course you know what I mean, was talking about the animals, there shouln't be a difference betwen a rat and a cat.

[Aaron_S]

I was going off your last line where it says "But an already dead dog or cat,heaven forbid!!!"

But I do agree with what you have said,nobody thinks of what we eat when talk about feeding snakes this type of prey item. It is society that has done that to us. The animals we eat had a life too but since we were rasied that are nothing just our food we do not care. Where cats and dogs are our pets not food.

I don't even think vegetarians can say anything cause to have fields to grow veggies and fruits farmers would have to cut down more forest and trees and destroy more ecosystems which in turn destroys the environment.

Just like Mousakilla said..our bodies get eaten by worms,maggots and anything else lying in the dirt after we are gone and buried. so in the end it is one vicious circle of life.

[Siretsap]

Originally posted by aaashrimp
Tell me Siretsap, have you ever had a piece of bacon? How bout some fried chicken? They are some of the "higher" and moreintelagent animials there, however, there are no animals treated with more cruelty and disrespect in the world, billions are tortured and sluaghterd every year.
Yet people don't give them a second thought.
But an already dead dog, or a cat, heaven forbid!!

I know what you are talking about. That is what I am trying to explain. People that associate with cats and dog will not be willing to do this. A seagul, now many people run them over withtout pitty?
Chicken, I ahve seen videos of what they do to them when they prepare them for the market...

[LurkerAccount]

don't even think vegetarians can say anything cause to have fields to grow veggies and fruits farmers would have to cut down more forest and trees and destroy more ecosystems which in turn destroys the environment

Wow, never thought about it that way.....

I've seen those videos too, those are mostly the large corperations thoguh, like KFC, those bast*rds, I boycott them and steal there lights.

[Aaron_S]

Sorry forgot to give credit where credit is due. My thought on vegetarians came from a comment from the original article.

[MouseKilla]

Aaron,

I'll admit that it gets a little murky when you compare relatively equal animals, such as a cat and a rabbit. Rabbits are often used as feed where cats aren't. I'm not saying that this is logical, sometimes we are arbitrary about which animals we kill and I won't defend that. What I was trying to illustrate is that sometimes it's obvious that one living thing IS more important. If you don't like the bee analogy how about the cancer one? Is a doctor a murderer for killing the cancer to save the human? Does the cancer have an equal right to exist? Of course it doesn't, that's just stupid. For that reason I think it is OK to eat animals for survival, however it would be better to eat plants if available because while lettuce is technically alive it is of a lower life form than the pig you talked about. The reality is that for one thing to live something else has to die. I think all we can do is kill the least valuable form of life possible. Don't eat people when you can eat beef, don't eat beef when you can eat lettuce.... Man, I'm hungry... Hot dogs aren't made of animals are they?

[LurkerAccount]

I still say you should boycott KFC and steal there lights.

[LurkerAccount]

Does anyone disagree with that??
Anyone??
??

[Aaron_S]

Like I said it is just one vicious circle and you said it again when you stated "The reality is that for one thing to live something else has to die." That is completely true. The cancer analogy does work but since others have said bacteria deserves to live then surely cancer is just an entity that is trying to live its life. If we happen to be it's choice "habitat and food source" then that is that. But like you said for one to survive something needs to die, so we kill it. And that being said if reptiles need to survive is it then ok for prey items such as a cute puppy or kitten to be eaten?

Also I state previously if you want us to live off lettuce we will destroy more land doing that. It can't be done and it can't be done so that we only live off meat. There has to be balance there.

[Aaron_S]

I am not commenting on boycotting KFC. Although stealing their lights is mighty tempting lol

[Siretsap]

Originally posted by aaashrimp
I've seen those videos too, those are mostly the large corperations thoguh, like KFC, those bast*rds, I boycott them and steal there lights.

Ever tought of stealing their big advertisement that is in the form of a kentuky bucket? Taht would be sweet on the top of your car heading down a highway.

[LurkerAccount]

Nope, cause I don't have a car, but I do have grand idea to really really piss them off.... hehe, I wouldn't want to say on this though, just in case....

[Bryce Masuk]

What makes life more valuable then other life? If you See it though Religious eyes is not all life equal? (This isnt my personal Thought) Who gets to judge Which life has more value? Us? What catagorys Are we looking at and why?

My thoughts are Those puppys Are dead Already Why not make use of them. My thoughts on animals that are living are Kill what you want use what you kill Endangered Species Are the Weakest of all species And Those who adapt Will Continue to live And Diverge into new species overtime so who cares

[HeatherRose]

Getting back to the original topic....:P

As much as it sucks for the animals to go to waste, the backlash from parents and the community once their kids told them 'what happened in science class that day' isn't worth it. If the situation was explained fully, I really think only a handful of students would understand, if that.


On the topic of animal equality...certain animals have been domesticated because they appeal to us, as pets and companions.... others dont ....a lot of people prefer the more appealing fuzzy forms of life than the not.

This might not make sense......but if someone you loved died, how would you feel about them being put to 'good use' ie. organ donation, etc, before they were put into the ground? I think it's the same...even if it wasn't their pet, fuzzy animal lovers might just not like the idea of it, regardless.....but I understand we're not talking about using people's pets here.

[MouseKilla]

Aaron,
I'm actually not suggesting that we live on lettuce and you gave a good reason why it may actually do more harm to try, though the same damage is done when factory farms supplying McDonalds clear cut rain forests for grazing as would be done through agriculture but that's all a different debate. I guess my point is that we should attempt to do the least amount of harm. I think it is less harmfull, overall, to kill the mouse than the cat just as it's better to kill the cancer than the man. That being said, if there were no other food source then I guess a cat would work and if it was already dead then all the better.

As for the KFC, I'm down with boycotting it but not cuz I care about chickens. I boycott it already cuz it tastes like sh*t. If you want to boycott a company for inhumane activity then boycott all the fast food places plus Walmart and Nike for their inhumane treatment of their employees.

[Aaron_S]

I understand what you are saying with the Mcdonald's. I didn't say that was right to clearcut rainforest for grazing. But most people see that but don't see the same thing with vegetables. There is only one way to cut back on that type of clearcutting. That is to stop eating at fast food places. They probably use more beef then anyone.

[Aaron_S]

Heather, I agree with the part on the backlash it just isn't worth setting the hobby back a little bit when it is avoidable.

Dogs and cats were used as hunters and mouse catchers long before they were pets and it just grew like that.

I would actually feel better if I happened to die and someone put me to good use. Feed me to the crocs at the zoo. Might aswell let my body be with what I love then in the ground.

[MouseKilla]

Bryce,
Is it really that difficult to see how some creatures are more valuable than others? It's useless to compare cats and rabbits because they are basically equivalent. The cancer and the person are not. The cat and bunny are not equal to lettuce either. These are simple comparisons that we don't have to think about. The distinction is of one organism being of a more complex and therefore higher order. There is a very real natural heirarchy that has many levels. Some creatures share a level with others (cats and dogs..) and some are far above others (humans vs. fruit flies). If you think all living things have equal rights to exist then I must wonder what it is you eat.

[LurkerAccount]

If you want to boycott a company for inhumane activity then boycott all the fast food places plus Walmart and Nike for their inhumane treatment of their employees.

Already done man, exept for WAl-Mart, whats wroung with them..
I Boycott all that, Bootlager, Bluenotes, Brodey.... I Buy close at thrift shops or army surplus, I don't eat fastfood anymore.

You don't care about the chickens? Watch this, http://www.meetyourmeat.com/
You dont have to pay, just click the thing on th top right that says "Watch it"
www.meetyourmeat.com
www.meetyourmeat.com
www.meetyourmeat.com

[Aaron_S]

that's an interesting video. But I don't like PETA so I am not going to their site again.

[reptilesalonica]

Who gets to judge Which life has more value? Us?
Everything that is alive, belongs to the pyramid of life. The pyramid of life has the fewer beings on top and the most beings on bottom. This means that the one that is on the top (humans) can and will (eventualy) judge which life has more value as far as their leverage allow. The only thing that humans cannot kill (if they hasn't do it already in their mind) is God or Creator. For some it maybe heard selfish but this is what is happening. Top of us we have only the Creator. HE will eventually exterminate us like we are doing uppon other living beigns on the pyramid of life below us.
When the man understand that, then he will stop raping his mother (earth). Until then he will always find excuses and he will act as senseless as he is acting now, by killing everything near him for no apparent reason.
~Greg~

[Aaron_S]

The pyramid of life us humans made up. So you are saying we put value on ones life. Also what do you mean fewer being on top and most being on bottom? I don't get that.

[Bryce Masuk]

Mouse I didnt Say that was MY Train of thought I was saying SOME people see it that way

I Eat Meat I Hunt I have Bought Stingray skin and Will later buy snake skin for Knife Sheaths. I have Mammoth Ivory in the mail And I own a Ivory Crocodlie. as well as knives with Ivory From many of India's Finest Horned animals. So you can tell I dont have a problem with killing any animal But some people Belive animals have souls so inturn Bacteria must have a soul if we do But i dont think anything has a soul.

[reptilesalonica]

This is the pyramid of life my friend. The law of life in Cosmos.
Level 1: Creator (God or Cosmos energy)
Level 2: Humans
Level 3: Large predators (tigers, lions, etc.)
Level 4: Smaller predators (babuins, wild cats, wild dogs etc.)
Level 5: Large herbivores (elephants, rhinos, etc.)
'
'
and the storie goes on and on...
~Greg~

[Aaron_S]

ahhh but who made that up? Us right...so we placed value on each of those types of animals lives.

[reptilesalonica]

Me neither Bryce (who is the mouse?) all are energy...I don't believe in recarnation. If you see in life around you, near or far, you (everyone) will see that all are energy. From the minor to the major...all are energy.
And the first law of thermodynamics says it clear energy cannot be destroyed, neither created. It is all around and transmutates in other kind of energy
when you put the cheese in the ova, then it will melt. When we will die, our type of energy that keep us alive, will be transmutated into another type of energie to fill the empty spot (brick) on the wall of Cosmos.
~Greg~

[reptilesalonica]

Originally posted by Aaron_S
ahhh but who made that up? Us right...so we placed value on each of those types of animals lives.
Read again the pre-previous post.
When the man understand that, then he will stop raping his mother (earth). Until then he will always find excuses and he will act as senseless as he is acting now, by killing everything near him for no apparent reason.
Man can live in harmony with all other creatures and kill only what he wants to feed and to wear. But the lack of knowledge brought him to this state of situation.
~Greg~

[Bryce Masuk]

You could also Base The pyramid Though man's Eyes And say the most Important Animals are the ones he cant conquer What i am saying is Who gets to Choose And why is each animal there? If you said The Strongest animals are based upon what they eat Then vegitarian People would be down there with the elephants and Fruit eating monitors are in the same boat Even though there body and mind's are quite simular to those Who eat meat

[reptilesalonica]

Vegetarian people are a minority among the human beings. Vegetarian people do not represent Homo sapiens. Homo sapiens is omnivorous.
~Greg~

[Aaron_S]

Bryce brings a good point. Why is that a lion is higher then an elephant? An adult elephant could easily kill a lion or the same with a rhino. It could kill a full grown adult lion. Large hippos would charge a human and could easily kill a large predator. Crocs don't go near them as they know they will be done for if they mess with an adult hippo.

[reptilesalonica]

I was not eating meat for 10 years in the distant past. I was wrong for 10 years.
~Greg~

[reptilesalonica]

Crocs don't go hear them as they know they will be done for if they mess with an adult hippo.
That's why humans don't do the same thing unless they are armed :)
Lions can kill a small elephant but 5 adult elephants can kill an adult lion...
It goes with the power...Humans has another kind of power that keeps them on top...brain.
~Greg~

[Aaron_S]

what are you saying? Vegetarians are wrong in what they do?

[lordkovacs]

we had this debate with feeding cats...and I assume this will go much the same way.

[Aaron_S]

Ahhh it isn't brains anymore..it is gunpowder. Without it we would be at the bottom of the food chain.

This has gotten off topic lol

[reptilesalonica]

not only gunpowder, we use our brain to make cars to run faster, to escape from other creatures that run faster than us. We can light up a fire, we can build something in a higher level to prevent a danger. We can make a bridge to go somewhere...we do so many things by using our brain...Yes, it went off topic :)
I got to go now...cya 2morrow.
~Greg~

[Aaron_S]

Ok does anybody else want to get back on topic of this? about snakes eating unwated puppies or kittens? I feel like debating

[MouseKilla]

Alright, fine. Just for fun I will argue a point that I don't even believe in (probably). I will defend the position that urban animal control vehicles should all be re-routed to willing large reptile owners houses for the purpose of feeding stray cats and dogs to their animals. I will argue that it will save money and prevent the spread of disease. I think that's provocative enough for now but I'm sure I can come up with more. Ok, your turn, tell me I'm wrong and why. GO! LOL!

[Aaron_S]

well then this is taking the other side aswell lol.

That is not a good thing. These are furry little creatures that are above reptiles and deserve to have a chance at adoption. To have a loving family like you love your giant reptiles. Is it fair to end an animals life without evening giving it a chance to have one?

[Gary D.]

Back on topic here. To quote (heck I don't remember who)" we will only save what we love, we will only love what we understand, and we only understand what we have been taught."

I see the public out cry based on two points.
First, simply look towards the media and entertainment industry to see how the average population view the world. A good example is our favourite whipping boy, fear factor. The ignorant masses do not view reptiles to have much more worth than insects. Even the Calgary zoo on a recent radio commercial for Destination Africa said "all the animals and reptiles too". As long as society does not understand reptiles it will place less value on them.

Second. Man kind have had a close relationship with dogs and cats since before recorded history , and as such we have taken them out of the food chain and anthropomorphisized them into our place on the food chain. The thought of feeding an animal which we view as an equal an animal we view as a lower life form is deemed barbaric.

The arguement "they were going to die anyway, why not introduce the base protiens and amino acids back into the food chain where they can be useful" is an arguement based on logic. Where as the "that's inhumane " camp bases it's arguement in psychology and emotion.

GD

PS And all married men know that you can not argue emotion with logic and win, no matter how right you are. hehe.

[Aaron_S]

First thing Gary do not say Fear factor or any other show like that. I am pretty sure they see any of these forums bad mouth them they start lawsuits saying the site slandered them.

Now to the topic at hand....

I see you are correct with the logic vs. emotion and in the world today emotion wins. Even tho logic is the better way in this discussion.

THe media puts a lot of fear into people and show them reptiles are evil and their lives are not to be valued. I just think it would be better if the circle of life just continued on like it should. No exceptions for dogs,cats or even humans.

[Colonel SB]

I have to agree with Baz on this one. So this guy should have expected that reaction.

[DarkHunter]

wow...intresting topic...
Well...ill put in my $0.02...I agree with most of you by saying if the puppy was going to die either way...feeding it to something is alot better then putting it 6ft under...i mean if a snake can benifit from it, why not? I totaly disagree with making students watch this, as it could be very disturbing to people. I know adults that would have a hard time watching this let alone younger children!!

[jay76]

Hmmmm, well, seeing as my father made me dispose of a few litters of kittens we couldn't get rid of any other way, I'd say I'm biased towards one end of the argument. Before anyone starts calling me a monster or anything keep in mind that when you live on a farm things are different than when you find a litter of kittens in a townhouse. There's nothing wrong with reusing the bodies (maybe keeping them out of hotdogs is a good thing???) but to do it in a classroom isn't the brightest idea. Had they been euthanized before hand it still wouldn't be right, since depending on age some kids still don't understand (and wait for poochie to 'wake up').

With the sentiments attached to "man's best friends" if it's going to be done it shouldn't be in public. So yeah I'm all for it. Just remember to take the collars off first.... :o

[MouseKilla]

Hmm ok well what if it was a human baby that was going to be aborted anyway? There, that should stir the pot. Now who wants to say that all forms of life are equal? Baby, rat it's all the same right?

Aaron,
It's not just logic vs. emotion, it's a moral question. That's why it's not something that is about things science can measure like weight or even intellegence, it's about right and wrong. The reason people get angry about this question is that it is obvious that a higher form of life than is necessary is being killed for food. It's easy to see that it's wrong to kill cats and dogs when rats and mice are available. Even though human flesh is likely very nutritious we don't eat the dead now do we? Do you wonder why not??? Does the fact that they're already dead change anything? Not unless your plane has crashed in the Andes. Which reminds me, I ate a flight attendant once, but she survived. LOL! snoogins!

[LISA127]

We had this debate before, only concerning kittens instead of puppies.
Therefore, all I am going to contribute to this is -
I have always been a reptile lover, always have been, always will be. However, when this topic is brought up is the only time I am ashamed to be classified with other reptile lovers.

[snakemann87]

That is a very unnatural food source for a snake. And anything that may eat meat isnt a good diet for a snake i think?

No i do not agree with it at all. I wonder if he had the schools consent?

[OttawaChris]

I have very mixed emotions about this one... dogs and cats are pets that most of us were raised with. Many pets become another member of the family. My best friend in the whole world is my cat... would I ever let him be fed to something? HELL NO!! Seeing a cat being fed to something would really bother me too... but I don't think it should be illegal. If a person has the stomach for it then by all means go for it. Just dont make others watch (expecially children who have to go home and look at fluffy)

The animals that are killed off in shelters (another thing I have issues with by the way) are dead anyway. We might as well feed them to something that can use it. Why breed more mice just to die when there is already a viable food source?

I requested that I be fed to a tiger or something when I die... I figure that I am done with my body so it might as well go to use... but I doubt my family will honour that request LOL

[unknownclown]

maybe they shouldnt be wasted but I certainly wouldnt want my kid to witness that as a school project!

[Aaron_S]

snakemann87-No he did not have the schools consent. Once complaints were put against him by parents the school asked him not to do it. This wasn't the first time the students would have been shown the snake eating. The teacher had fed it rats before in front of the students.

Chris-We never said your pet cat...we had stated unwanted.
Mice is for the smaller snakes...I don't think a baby corn could take a kitten down.lol. It would try and be thinking "I think I can,I think I can."

[Darlene]

A couple other scenarious to ponder here :
1)Many highschools watch "wildlife videos" which contain scenes of large predators such as lions & crocodiles tearing apart prey such as gazelles. The gazelles or other prey are still alive.
2)Most large reptiles & other such predators in captivity that would be capable of eating cats & dogs do not have rats & mice as their alternative food source. To make a proper comparison one must have in mind that they would be fed goats, sheep, lambs, calves & various members of the 'deer' family that can be 'farmed' for them.
3)There was a recent news article about a lady (tho I forget where she was from) who had willed that she be fed to her beloved lions when she passed away. When her demise did come to pass her family was horrified at having to do it & went to court to fight it. They won & her dying wish was not honored even tho she had taken all proper steps to make it so.
4)Pet cemetarys are available for animals who have lived their lives with families. Never ask your veterinarians what happens to bodies of animals that they have "put to sleep" & been left with.
5)Picture in your mind the beloved 4-H calf or Pony Club mount; then visit a livestock auction or; if you are brave enough; a slaughter house. Try to find out where all "unusable parts" go.

[ReptiZone]

Well Aaron you did good man you made a real debat sucsefull.

This is my stand....
First off why would any one put a cat or dog above a reptile when they have ben around longer if not double there life time. Lets get passed equility for a second and look at reality.

If I hade a huge reptile fecility and I was called every friday and was told ok Marc we put down 20 of this weeks strays chimical free for you how many will you need next week that would be apropriat for me. Did you know that a stray that is picked up off the streets has 4 days to be claimed WHY you may ask they need to make room for the folowing week's worth of animals that will be braught in. so why not have a good number (if not all) put down chimical free and then frozen for big zoos or facilitys.

Now I am not saying lets all get into breeder kitys. But if it's ther lets use it why breed somthing just to kill it when hundreds of prey items are being incenarated or placed in to veggie burgers J/K LOL.

Now should the teacher show frist, second or third graders. But if we are talking about his/her grade 11 and 12 biology class well then I am all for it. also I would nat show how it kills simply becaus I am not all about live feeding but if the teacher can get still born pigs for disection why not a few kittens or puppys.

In all reality put your self in these shoes you have 300 + animals to feed and the humain sociaty will donat for free 30%-40% of your pray items tellm me that is not areciated whne that gives you the extra cash to worry about vet bills, water filters, new cage linings, replacement bulbs for over 150 cages in over stock just so you have them when you need them. these sort of savings can make a big diffrence in a big reptile collection.

well I said me pice for now.

Marc Doiron.

P.s. Snakeman87 a snake eating prey that eats meat is not a bad thing Anacondas can and do eat jags in the wild along with your occasional caiman and just about anything that they can catch. Large constrictors are oportunistic hunters in other words if they have not eatin in a few monts and then they find a dead lion what is gona stop them from eating it eaven if it wasent dead if they acn get close enugh to a sleeping lion what is there to stop them. now I am done.

[Aaron_S]

Marc,From you view it would be convient to feed kittens and puppies for a large collection. BUT the human society wouldn't do that. THey sooner put down that 30-40% of animals and throw the bodies away or do whatever it is they do. ( I wouldn't put it past them buring them,which puts toxins from the smoke into the atomosphere and that helps global warming and in return that would kill the animals they love,once again vicious circle)
Also people put dogs and cats above an animal that has lived for millions and years more then cats or dogs but they are cute and cuddly and they have been domesticated. They show feelings and love to their owners. So people prefer them. It's like how people treat sharks...they have been around longer then reptiles and well since they occasionally MISTAKE us for food and yet people hate them. Just because of their natural instinct. We go into their habitat and they continue what they do best and we out right destroy them.

Darlene-The videos they may watch might show all that stuff but to see it in real life is different. It just might shock them...although if they have watched a rat being killed..I don't see the tears that should follow with this. Maybe the teacher should have stuck them in front of those homeless puppies being killed cause noone wanted them. THen do this experiemnt..they might think of it differently. See the biology and the way the animal kingdom truely works.

[MAN OF STEEL]

im with rob zombie (invictus) !