Vine snakes

[spikella]

I'm looking for some additional info about these guys, as I'm guilty of somewhat of an impluse buy today.

Now before anyone starts yelling at me, i have been researching these guys for the past 2 years and i haven't seen any available in Canada to this date. So when I saw one for $30 at the Expo today I snatched him/her up. I believe I have a pretty good setup going... hopefully you guys can confirm this or spank me if i'm wrong.

-20 gallon tank, metal screen lid, many fake plants, one hide box, water bowl, basking light (regular bulb: 83 degrees, room temp for rest of tank), spraying twice daily and ate one brown anole today.

what do you think? anything I need to add/take away?

also some questions for keepers...
what type of venom do these guys have? how should I handle myself if I am bitten? I know its a 'mild' venom, but never having owned one of these, i don't know what that means...

any non-probing method of sexing?
is a once a week feeding schedule sufficient?

thanks in advance for all advice/answers

http://members.rogers.com/starbatz/vine3.jpg

[mk-ultra]

well i own an adult your setup seems right i give mine 3 anole a week lots of spraying as for the venom i did some research and it says it can cause local pain and headack for couple of weeks at the worst . mine kills an anole in like 5 or sometimes 10 min and sometimes its still alive when he starts to eat it i keep it in a 33 gallon with lots of branches and fake plants thats about it

[Invictus]

SWEET. Those look great. Who did you buy it from?

[spikella]

thanks for the info, mk...
3 anoles once a week, eh... hmm not sure how to judge with this guy. Seems a little small to take that many, but i don't really know how to tell.

i should probobly start breeding anoles if i'm going to be buying that many!

And what's the typical going rate for these snakes? i really had no idea (having never seen them for sale) but i would have thought them more pricey than what I paid. Jeez most corns run more $$ than this!

Invictus: I got him/her from a Montreal breeder's table... I wish i knew who they were, but i was so enraptured i snatched him up and took off!

[Lisa]

Cool find, they're on my wanted list too.

[LdyDrgn]

Just to warn you: that one was more than likely WC. WC cost a lot less than CB. A majority of WC vine snakes do NOT live long in captivity. I sincerely hope that this one does well for you.

Sometime ago someone posted a link to a good vine snake page. You may have seen it, but incase you hadn't:

Asian Vine Snakes (http://members.aol.com/asianvinesnake/)

Good luck :) They are on my wishlist, too, but ONLY CB (like Mandarin ratsnakes, heh)

[herpetological]

This species is notorious for parasites. Likely an import. Try to obtain Flagell or Metronidazole. Comes in tablet form. No more than 50 Mg. Protozoans are a problem in particular due to the lizard feeding habits. You may be able to get it to take scented pinkies or hoppers. The best bet if you are feeding lizards is to freeze the lizards first to kill protozoans or other parasites. Otherwise you are fighting a loosing battle since you will only re-introduce parasites from the lizards. They will not utilize a hide box. Best bet is a 20 gallon hi minimum size tank. Temps in the 80's during the day. Night can drop into the low 60's with no ill effects. Humidity in the 80% or better range. Feed 3-5 anoles every two weeks at least or same on pinkies. If you need any more info just ask. Ray G. HBR

[spikella]

LdyDrgn: thanks for the link... I hadn't thought of the WC cost factor. that makes me feel really awful/guilty :(

I guess i took the fact that 99% of all the reptiles i see up here are CB...


Ray: you think I should medicate first, or do a fecal? Are these guys good about taking F/T food?

and he seems really small to take 3 anoles... the one i gave him made a good dent in him

[Hamster of Borg]

Vine snakes hunt mainly by vision, chances are, if the prey doesn't move they won't even try to eat it. I've been attempting thawed for mine on and off for the better part of a year now with no luck - the tongs seem to threaten her, and she won't touch anything not moving on its own. They do have a pretty high metabolism and need a good amount of food. :)

I've not seen vine snakes for more than 30-40 dollars USD. They're not a high dollar animal because they are pretty much guaranteed to be wild caught and are just so hard to keep alive. Lizard feeders are a put off for most people.

I was bitten by mine trying to extract her from my stereo cabling when she accidentally went wandering once, they are -incredibly- fast when they want to be and very hard to hook. It caused redness where the punctures were, a very slight amount of localized swelling, and the area felt hot for about 6 hours. No headache, no other pain or noticable symptoms. Not to say you should be careless, but I would not consider them to be dangerous unless you had allergies.

Ham

[NewLineReptile]

Ask Jordan (AkA JD@Reptiles) he would be able to help you out with what you want to know

Brandon

[herpetological]

Spikella,
It would be a good idea to treat with Flagell(Metronidazole) for protozoans. A fecal would be a plus. As far as feeding ......they are as mentioned sight/movement response feeders. There are some tricks. Try tying a anole (thawed)to a (natural) thin thread and moving it along.(No need for tongs) Catgut would be optional. Tie it so that the knot will release upon pressure.(Prey item taken) It wont hurt if a little is ingested. Just a trick. Sounds like a lot of work but. worth it for a healthy specimen. We have gotten them on pinks by skinning a lizard and placing the skin on pinkies.(Scenting over) Sound gross but, you do what you have to. Hope that helps? Feel free with any other questions.

[spikella]

Hamster: thank you, thank you, thank you! I was dying (no pun intended) to hear a real-life account of what happens from a bite

Ray: absolutely, helps me tons! For the Flagyl (that's how they spell it up here) do you medicate them yourself? if so, can you give me some tips for doing so? Also, what visible signs of parasites can i look out for...

anybody know about sexing these guys? preferably without probing... (although I imagine that's quite impossible, but thought i'd ask)

[herpetological]

If you can get a pic of the ventral/anal area with a complete tail shot I can give you a fairly accurate sexual determination. As to treatment.... They are usually about 250 mg. break the tablet up into approximately 6 equal pieces. If it's a little over it's not a problem....dissolve in water and administer orally. Males are always smaller than females as adults. (Great if you have a huge one?)Easy to sex the big females. Hope that helps. By the way they are live bearers. We had 11 born this year. See our site for pics of a big female. She's about 6 ft. Thanks Ray G. HBR

[Dr. Bryan Fry]

Hi Spikella,

I've been bitten by these guys a few times and it typically just stings and swells a bit. I did have one bite though where my hand ached deeply for about a day and a half. I'd rate them as a fairly trivial bite.

We had a look at this venom in our latest paper
http://www.venomdoc.com/downloads/BGF_Colubroidea_RCMS.pdf

All the best
B

[spikella]

thanks for the info Dr. Fry!
...actually that's exactly what I was looking for (personal accounts of venom reactions)

I'm wondering if you might be able to help me solve a debate i'm having with my spouse (who wants me to get rid of this little beauty). He's concerned that myself, my son or him may have an aggravated "allergic" reaction to this snakes venom (much like how some individuals have reactions to bee stings). Is this possible with these snakes?

[Dr. Bryan Fry]

>thanks for the info Dr. Fry!

No worries at all ;-)

>..actually that's exactly what I was looking for (personal accounts of venom reactions)

I'm good for that for a pretty wide array of species, having had the dubious distinction of being nailed by just about everything under the sun (the sea snake bite truly sucked!)

>I'm wondering if you might be able to help me solve a debate i'm having with my spouse (who wants me to get rid of this little beauty). He's concerned that myself, my son or him may have an aggravated "allergic" reaction to this snakes venom (much like how some individuals have reactions to bee stings). Is this possible with these snakes?

Of course its possible, but its possible to peanuts as well. Snake venom allergy is really only developed by people who work with large quantities of freeze dried venom (anyone from Serpentarium workers to lab scientists). Its evil stuff that way. From working with huge quantites of venom (and being a dipshit and not wearing a good particulate filter mask) I've developed an allergy to just about every elapid and this is of major concern. I've gone into anaphylactic shock the first time I've been envenomated by a species but having worked with the venom in the lab for a couple years. For the average person, its of low likelihood. The ironic thing is that the allergic reactions to various 'colubrids' over the years were actually cases of envenomation not allergy.

Vine snakes make fine pets but are known to be a bit snappy. Venom or no venom, you wouldn't be willingly letting it bite you anyway since they possess some rather long, sharp teeth used for snatching lizards off branches. Just hook it out or use light gloves.

Tell your spouse the vine snake is fine and it'll be gone once that mamba you ordered arrives ;-p

Cheers
B

[Dr. Bryan Fry]

PS

The allergy in bees, hornets, wasps, ants, etc. is actually due to a nuance in the venom. Its too widespread to be coincidental and rather I think its a deliberate effect of the venom and an evolved strategy. Allergy is certainly an effective kill mechanism and in the least magnifies the unpleasentness of the venom.

Cheers
B

[Yve]

no advice here...no tips....:)....just wanted to say you've got yourself a pretty snake!:)

[spikella]

Thanks so much, Bryan...

I've convinced my bf thanks to you :D

and thanks Yvonne