Another one of chondro python's debats

[ReptiZone]

Handeling Reptiles Do you think it is somthing you need to do for the animal to thrive? What are your points and views on this topic?

I say No! I think it is just some Jazz that pet stores sell to ppl so they can pass reptiles of as cute and cudely animals.

Now I don't wana say that ppl should not handel there animals and I also don't wana try and change ppl daily routines.

This is how I see it...

pet stores sell you a reptile and say handel it every day and it will grow to be healthy but in reallity you are not helping your herp cause...

Handeling==> Stress
even if ppl say it is not stressed HE/SHE is "TAME".

But what they don't know is when a animal is so stressed to the point that it will just chose to not move (rendering it handelable OR "TAME") and pray to god we humans don't see it.
That a lactic acid will build up in the muscules and that is actualy verry dangerous to the health to the animal.

stress==> not eating and other physical problems such as RI

Stress can actualy make your herp stop eating and in concequence your animal can develope a rather poor imune Systome well maby not develope....bad chois of words there but it will weeken it that is for sure.

And well negative health and not eating for prolong periouds of time can and may==> DEATH.

Then what do we do we go back to the unforgiving Pet store and buy a new herp 6 monts to a year later and the viciouse circle continues.

well you tell me why handeling 30min a day is beter then 30 min a week.

Oh lets not forget that is a extra 30 min considering the fact that we may spend about 1-2hours a week just cleanung the cage and giving clean water,feeding and spraying and changing light bulbs (maby you just hit a switch like me). And so on and so on!!

Marc Doiron

[burmer]

I don't believe snakes need to have human interaction to thrive. If you handle once or twice a week so the snake is familar with handling, it will make life alot easier. You have to handle sometimes to be able to clean the cages and if they have some interaction they may be less apt to strike. I very rarely handle and I don't have any strikers or agressive snakes.

[ReptiZone]

Ya that is my point like there is a fair amount of interaction in the run of a day that if you do it all correctly you should have to resort to handeling 2-4 times a month just enught to say you did it.

[drewlowe]

My snakes i really don't handle that much at all. So i agree with you on that. But on the other hand i'm almost alway holding my leos and at times beardies. I think they don't mind the occasional handling. I have a leo that will hear my voice then come out of her hide and start walking on air until i either get her out or until she gets tired of trying to get to me. I also have a wild child (leo) that hears the slightest sound and runs as fast as she can. I think she came from a bad home. She is calming down with time, but she's still kinda skittish.

My beardies will come out of their cage and come sit with me on the couch. Usually they sit on the back of the couch and watch tv. They will do that for hours then why i try to put them up they start throwing a little fit.

basicly i agree snakes don't need that much attention but certain lizard on the other hand i don't think mind handling i think some might even enjoy it.

[eyespy]

I agree with drewlowe. Certain lizards, especially igs, beardies and monitors, get downright squirrelly if not provided with stimulation. Tortoises seem to seek out interaction as well. Snakes on the other hand would just as soon be left to their own devices.

[LdyDrgn]

I haven't had any problem with snakes refusing to eat because of too much handling.

Not refuting or agreeing here, just stating my experience. The only non-feeders I have had were stressed from my move here from CA. All are feeding again and doing well. :)

[Jeff_Favelle]

If snakes need to be handled to "thrive" then why aren't all the ones in the wild dying from lack of handling???



:confused:

[Bryce Masuk]

Lol Jeff

[Jayson]

Its been said in here many times that snakes are naturally solitary animals,With the exception of burmation and breeding.
However I believe that if the animals are to be used in educational programs where they are being handled by the general public then regular handling is needed to keep the use to human interaction.
I also believe that captive snakes dont get the excersize they naturally get in the wild, lets face it there food gets handed to the in most cases already dead, and really they have no were to go in a cage

Just my opinion Jason

[sSNAKESs.com]

Im this Jayson on this one... How can a 6 foot snake in a 4 x 2' enclosure get the proper exercise it needs or should be provided if the snake is not taken out and handled?? The snake may look fine, but in all reality if you were 6' and laid down in a 4 x 3' enclosure where you do have enough area to moved around, but lets face it... im willing to bet you would still get cramps, aches and pains from not getting enough exercise no matter which way you look at it... I know with my emerald if I do not take her out to be exercised she will build up feces / urates into a noticable buldge, but if I take her out a few times a week she is alot more regular with bowel movements period... Im not saying she "enjoys" or likes to be out of her enclosure but its obvious that it IS doing her some good in keeping her regular and well exercised. In the wild a snake will move to accomadate for its needs... Seeking heat / cold, food / water and security... they wont move if all of these needs are met... If you are providing your animal with all of these within non moving distances your snake wont move period, and how healthy can something possible be that is made up of muscle, eating / growing but not moving!?!? Just my .02 cents.

[tHeGiNo]

Good points, I agree with Jayson as well. Another good point that is currently being researched by a zoo in Alberta or Manitoba (I think :rolleyes:) that stress for captive animals is good for them as it stimulates their interaction with other animals in the wild.

[Invictus]

Handling=stress my a$$.

Any animal, when raised from a baby, can become accustomed to, even to the point of "liking" certain stimuli if it is part of their routine. When our adult corns hear our voices or sense activity in the herp room, they do this cute little thing where they slither up and put their noses right to the top of the enclosures. We take them out and they get plenty of exercise. Another thing - if we sit on the bed, they will sometimes do everything they can to get every part of their body close to us. And by the way, the herp room is usually around 85 degrees during the summer, so it's not that they need the heat. As an experiment, when Morpheus seemed to be feeling kind of affectionate, I got up and went to the other side of the bed. He came right back up to me, and put as much of himself in contact with me as he could. I went back to the other end - same thing. He followed.

But I can see why you would think this is a stressed reaction! Riiiiiiiiiight.

In some cases, some of our snakes DO get stressed if we DON'T handle them often. Some of the ones in our collection get handled daily, and we have never once had any stress-related problems as a result. They all feed like machines, and will even eat right after being handled for a while.

[reptilesalonica]

Let's not put everything under the same weight.
All snakes are not the same and all snakes do not have the same needs. A corn snake is very different from a GTP or a reticulated python. I will agree with some others' oppinions that snakes need to be handled in order to whittle away stress. All snakes cannot handle every day and cannot handle with the same way.
Most tree dwelling snakes are more aggressive and nervous and they require careful handling. The half of the job is when we are going to pick the snakes from their enclosures. We must do it slowly but decisively. If you won't handle your snakes every now and then, when you must open their cage to clean them they must have a serious problem, they must be very nervous. These snakes are adapted to live by humans cause they were born CB. After all, except a few difficult to feed spp. (balls, tree boas etc.) any other snake won't have feeding difficulties because of handling.
A hatchling after a few handlings, get to know humans and don't care at all. We are grubbing things too much, but to end where?
I will stick to this. Not every spp. has the same needs and we must learn about the snakes' needs BEFORE we buy it.
~Greg~

[Invictus]

I agree with you Greg... not *every* snake can be handled every day, and some not at all. However, the way the argument was presented, it was portraying ALL snakes as being stressed when you handle them. This is simply not the case.

[Pia]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chondro python

pet stores sell you a reptile and say handel it every day and it will grow to be healthy ]

Did a pet store worker actually say that to you!? It's not true. As long as a reptile has a proper sized enclosure, and the right light, heat, humidity, and food, they will be just fine. Many people like to have reptiles they can handle and it's a good idea that any herp is at least used to people so that if they have to be handled to be moved, taken to a vet, etc. they aren't overly stressed, but it's not as if they won't reach their full size, or be somehow unhealthy because they weren't handled lots. I think people tend to humanize reptiles too much.

[XxRachxX]

i only handle mind like twice a week, once for feeding, once for cleaning him out.
i think that handling not only benefits the snake but benefits the owner too. The owner has to be used to handling the snake, know how to handle it, knowing its "personality" and how it reacts to certain things. that way the handler will know if it has a tendency to bite them or it may slither off under the floorboards, stuff like that. i know that after not handling any of the larger species for a while, i was quite nervous when i had to handle some of the big snakes at work a few weeks ago.
i also think that it provides them with some other sort of stimuli, instead of: log, newspaper, waterbowl, hide... just my 2p:)

[LdyDrgn]

Not all tree boas are that sensitive, either. We can handle our two males right before feeding and they still won't hesitate to eat. Granted they are captive bred and used to much handling. When you try to put them back in their enclosure they look around, look at us, then climb right back up an arm, LOL! Friendly lil boogers :D

[Neo]

when you say reptiles ur being very very general.. this could be snakes, lizards, turtles, etc

neway, i have leos and me handling them acts as a heating pad to an otherwise heat lamped environment. when ever i pick mine up they know their gonna get some belly heat.

[jay76]

I enjoy handling my reptiles, but I can't vouch for them. Certainlly all reptiles behave and react differently. My two female leos hiss and try to bite my fingers until they're on my hand, then they're little angels (not sure if I should leave 'em be or try to get them used to me). The male has actually walked onto my hand while it was in the tank spot cleaning. My kingsnake has actually eaten while being handled - until I started putting him in the feeding box before his mouse anyways. It was kind of neat having him dangle from my finger while he chowed down, but it kind of limits what cleaning I can do during feeding time. So I'm going to side with the handling isn't inherently bad group... if your snake or lizard doesn't freak, and it gets needed exercise and stimulation, how can it be bad?

[elevation24]

It's not so much a matter of handling but rather how often you are handling and for how long.

It's really funny that you mention this because I just got through handling my female ball python a bit and when I put her away I thought to myself how much she <i>seems</i> to enjoy being out and about. I take her out 2-3 times a week for maybe 10-15 minutes at a time and she seems to enjoy it. Perhaps enjoyment is a difficult emotion to detect in a snake but she absolutely does not sit still and hope that I don't see her. She goes everywhere, inspects everything, and she doesn't seem to have a problem with being handled. I don't take my male out so much yet because he's very nippy as I haven't even had him for a month yet. Last night was the first time I handled him much at all and it was for less than 10 minutes, some of which was spent weighing him (this was the reason I took him out in the first place). He was acting very defensive for a few minutes but he seemed to "calm down" soon and I sat down for a few minutes with him and he began exploring my desk.

But of course they don't need human intervention. If they can live in the wild without it they can certainly live captive without it. But you must remember that the conditions they live in in the wild are much different than in captivity, especially the amount of space in which they can move.

I handle my snakes because they are "pets". I am not a breeder or a huge collector or anything else, I don't have them so they can be on display or any other reason except that I have them because I enjoy them, I enjoy caring for them, and to enjoy them even more I'd like to be able to take them out every so often for short periods of time. Whether they actually like it or not is not something you can say for sure. You can say that they are stressed, and maybe they are, I really don't know but because they all eat fine, shed fine, and everything else, all signs would have to point to no, they are not stressed.

[Jeff_Favelle]

When our adult corns hear our voices or sense activity in the herp room,


You must have some seriously magical snakes man because even with the little that I know about them, I know that snakes don't have ears and they can't hear. But if your corns can hear you, then so be it..................

[BoidKeeper]

Now Jeff he did say sense too. They will know he's there because of him walking on the floor. Kinda like Pavloves dogs.
Then again I'm not conveninced he's not Satan and maybe the snakes, since they are the spawn of the devil can hear him, who knows???
Cheers,
Trevor

[Jeff_Favelle]

Now Jeff he did say sense too.

That doesn't matter Trev! If I said I could fly AND said I could run really really fast, does that mean I never said I could fly?

Exactly.......

[BoidKeeper]

Exactly.......
LOL!
You know sometimes Jeff there's just no arguing with you.
Cheers Yoda,
Trevor

[Invictus]

http://www.anapsid.org/torrey.html

http://www.richland.lib.sc.us/archive/quest1102.htm

Quote from the above link:


Q. Do snakes hear?

A. Although they do not have external ears and do not hear in the same manner as humans or other reptiles with eardrums, snakes do hear sounds transmitted through the air. According to the book, Snakes in Question, sounds are transmitted to a snake through the skin located over the temporal region of its skull to its jaw muscle and then to its quadrate bone. A snake’s ear bone is adjacent to its quadrate bone and the ear bone picks up the sound and transmits the vibrations to the snake’s inner ear. The inner ear contains cells that are sound-sensitive. Snakes hear low frequency sounds best. For further information on hearing or other senses in snakes, see Snakes in Question.


There are a million other links on the net containing this same info, but I figure 2 links will suffice.

Even my daughter's grade 4 class learned about how snakes don't have external ears, but they do still have bones inside their head that can detect airborne sounds.

*flips the bird to Jeff*

:D

And Trevor, I am Satan. :devil: Mwahahahaha!

[Jeff_Favelle]

But Invictus, the real question is, do they say "hi, how are you doing" when you walk in??


:D

[lordkovacs]

snakes don't NEED handling. however, to prevent future undue stress and aggression, it is necessary when they are young.

[NewLineReptile]

I agree with Invictus about handling i handle all my snake and have no problems when it is time to feed

Brandon

[Mr.Lizard]

My feelings are that if the individual/species is an inquisitive and active one,then yes handling is probably a good thing for them.
Otherwise the stress of boredom is worse than that of being picked up and handled occasionally.
I give my monitor PK mice so she doesn't risk being bitten but I tug-o-war with the mouse to give her a little excercise and stimulation...I really think she enjoys it. Occasionally I handfeed her crickets too,I think it helps to socialize her a bit because she is definitely calmer with me the more frequently I handle her.
If I don't handle her for a while she gets a bit wild and nippy and I don't think an aggressive animal is a happy one.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Do snakes get bored?

[ReptiZone]

I dont think so. snakes just wana be snakes we dont need to intervean with there daily lives. I see alot of your guy's point but I was refering to handeling it every day like 2 hours a day I have seen ppl take out there ball python for an hour then put it back and affter super when they do there home work or watch tv they take it out for another 2-3 hours that is the needles handeling I am reffering to.

[C.Marshell]

Do snakes get bored?

I believe they do..mine seem to like to kick back with a good book once and a while:D

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/3131-3130_IMG-med.jpg

[ReptiZone]

lol good one chris I love that pic.

[Amiechann]

Me and my husband have many snakes, and hardly handle them. We have a couple of favorites that we end up handling more than others... We both just work to often to have much "personal" interaction time with them. As far as handling stressing the snake out, I think it depends on its personality. We do have a couple of ball pythons that eat much better when they are not messed with.. but overall everyone else eats like a pig regardless.

[Neo]

c.marshell

lol boa porn! ahh

sry.. im sick

[Jeff_Favelle]

I dont think so. snakes just wana be snakes we dont need to intervean with there daily lives.

I totally agree! Exactly!



We do have a couple of ball pythons that eat much better when they are not messed with

And exactly again. I concur.

[OttawaChris]

I think its just human nature to want to interact with their pet. Mostly all the responces here have been trying to put human emotions with the reptiles when thats just not the way it is. We would love to think our reptiles love us... but there is no real way to prove or disprove it. I say its best left up to each individual (I can also vouch for corn snakes and leos knowing your voice though... my voice stimulates almost all of my pets in fact... both the vertebrates and invertebrates)

Does a reptile NEED to be handled... no way. Does a reptile LIKE to be handled? Hard to say... I haven't learned how to talk to the animals yet ;)

BUT When I handle a snake and its not heaving for breath or acting frightened (ie. biting, hissing, trying to run away from me) I interpret that as the snake TOLERATING me. I do think they enjoy the body warmth... I have worn a ball python like a bracelet for the span of 2 or 3 hours (granted, this was a very placid and well-behaved specimen)

The only time I would say handling is MANDATORY is if you are trying to keep a specimen "friendly" (educational shows, zoos, etc.) We all know that they become accustomed to being handled and seem to no longer see us as a threat. Even my ultra-hostile texas rat snake has calmed down now and let me handle him without a fuss when I had to move him to his new tank (this was a snake that used to strike madly at me anytime I was within 6 feet of his cage!)

For this reason I could see a pet shop owner telling their employees that its important to handle the reptiles... after all, its a lot harder to sell a beardie that hisses and bites than it is to sell a beardie that sits in your hand and smiles right?

[marisa]

I agree with Chris's post entirely.

A lot of times snake owners would love to say "Oh look my BP is sitting still on me, he MUST love being held and love me!" When in reality they are just attaching their own emotions to a snake that has no emotions as we do and was trying to get warm or hide (not moving is a defense mechanisim sometimes!)

Again I agree with Chris mentioning TOLERATE. There is a huge differance between "oh my snake loves handling" and a snake tolerating handling. If snakes were emotional and needed human companionship I believe they would seek it out and show behaviours that agree with this in the wild. But most snakes do not even enjoy spending time with their own species, let alone people. Snakes had NO reason to develop emotions the way humans have them. They need to eat, drink, breed and sleep. Period. Emotions and relationships are not developed in animals when they would get in the way. Snakes are killers, hunters and breeders to propogate their species, but most are solitary.

Do I think its important to handle them? No. We hold a couple of our snakes because they are favorites and WE enjoy handling them, they do tolerate us well. But a few of my snakes get handled less, like maybe twice per month during cleaning. It doens't affect them either way, and they aren't dying of lonely broken hearts because they would prefer me to leave them alone in the first place.

The only other reason I can see to handle other than human enjoyment is that sometimes exercise in gravid female corns helps out a lot I have heard with avoiding egg binding. But we have a large exercise cage for this.

Marisa

[marisa]

Also- My snakes ALL come out when they hear me whacking mice. I do not believe this means we have a special relationship or that they will listen next time I need a shoulder to cry on. It means they have become conditioned to the sound and vibrations coming from the whacking area/board and know food is soon coming. It's not a miracle or some special relationship. It's a simply a conditioned behaviour that any snake can develop.

Marisa

[Christina]

This morning i went out herping and found about 12-15 snakes mostly waters and garters, one thing that all the findings had in common was every finding found two or more specimens together. In one spot i found four northern waters. Now before today i also thought that snakes were solitary animals. But when i think back over the summer and all the snakes i found basking and flipping rock, logs and tins I remember that many times more then one snake would be found under the same hide these spiecies include Northern waters, ribbons, red bellies, garters, milks, fox, and northern browns snakes. So i have to question weather snakes are naturally as solitary as we all think?? It could be possible that snakes in general are slightly more social then we give them credit for. Also note that these observations took place all summer long with findings of as many as 2 hundred snakes this summer.

Jason

.

[ReptiZone]

I realy like the way this debat is turning.it is stuff like this that puls the best out of ppl and we can realy see who has ben doing this for some time now.

I personaly find it hard to debate with ppl that have just a feew years under there bet I say this meaning less then 5. Simply cause they are still in the my snake loves me stage of the herp world. witch is fine we have all started there even I thaught my snakes loved me B4 then I learnd the painfull truth.

I think it is just harder because both types of herpers are strong set on there point. But as we noticed when the experience steped it the debate took a turn for the best cause the isue was discused in a maner that envolves no emotin just facts and the pros and cons.

You see it is importen that the experienced herpers participat in the everyday debat be cause we need to keep in mind that there is all was some one lookig for knowlege and most likly wil read our debats.

A big thank's to every one that participated.

to all older ssnakessmembers is it just me or do you see or debates being more clean and informative then in the past. MAN this site rules.

[LdyDrgn]

word of the day: anthropomorphism - Attribution of human motivation, characteristics, or behavior to inanimate objects, animals, or natural phenomena

;)

[ReptiZone]

Thank you I can never rember that word when I need it now I am wrighting it down thank's again

[Aaron_S]

Invictus-I believe your snake comming to you at the end of the bed as a hide not as it's owner which it enjoys to be around. On a made bed it is wide open. So if your snake sees you in at the other end it goes towards you to hide and feel secure. It tried to put as much of its body against yours cause you should know snakes prefer close quarters and close hides so they can feel something on all sides. So I think you just misinterperted(sp?) your snakes natural instinct to hide for emotion.

Christina-You finding more then 1 snake under the same hide doesn't mean they are exactly social. Maybe it was just the best hide around or for body heat during the cool times in the moring?

[Invictus]

Originally posted by OttawaChris
We would love to think our reptiles love us... but there is no real way to prove or disprove it.

Well, I won't speak for anyone else's posts, but I never personally said anything about my snakes loving me. I said that any animal, when raised from birth, can become accustomed to, to the point of "liking" certain stimuli. I don't think they are capable of love. I do think a snake knows when it is content though.

[quote]Does a reptile NEED to be handled... no way. Does a reptile LIKE to be handled? Hard to say... I haven't learned how to talk to the animals yet ;)

This is probably the most intelligent thing anyone has said so far. The bottom line is, even those of you who are saying that snakes only TOLERATE handling are pi$$ing in the wind just as much as the people who are saying their snakes "love" them. None of us have any imperical scientific data to support or deny any claim. This much can be said scientifically though - if you handle them more, most species will become less likely to bite. So, like Chris said, it's a personal choice. When I see some hard data from behavioral studies under scientific conditions, I will say definitively whether I believe snakes can feel affection.

However, I am reminded of an hour long Discovery Channel special where a guy proved that even Tiger Sharks can show an actual liking towards human stumuli. And it was done in the wild, so don't try to say the sharks were trained. They weren't. Did the sharks "love" this scientist? I seriously doubt it. Did they enjoy the stimuli he was provding? Absolutely. I'd say the same could probably be said for snakes.

[Invictus]

Originally posted by Aaron_S
[B]Invictus-I believe your snake comming to you at the end of the bed as a hide not as it's owner which it enjoys to be around. On a made bed it is wide open. So if your snake sees you in at the other end it goes towards you to hide and feel secure.

Who said the bed was made? He had plenty of places and opportunities to hide. I should also note that he came up and placed his head on top of my lap, not beside it. That doesn't look to me too much like he was interested in hiding.

It tried to put as much of its body against yours cause you should know snakes prefer close quarters and close hides so they can feel something on all sides.

Last I checked, corn snakes were commonly found in open fields in the wild. I'd say they're pretty used to open spaces.

So I think you just misinterperted(sp?) your snakes natural instinct to hide for emotion.

I never once insinuated that he was feeling emotion. I said he appears to like human contact. That doesn't mean he loves me. It means he finds good stimulation in being around something so large and complex or even just as warm as humans. As for my misinterpretation, you very well could be right. I won't deny that for a second. The bottom line is, as I said above, not one person here is an expert in snake behavior. We all have our own theories that stem from our own observances and our own experiences. :)

[Linds]

Its all up to the person whether they need to handle their snake or not. For the snake, the less handling the better off they are. This may not suit a person however, for instance one that does educational work most certainly does not want a snake that is nervous when handled. It can also be useful in terms of safety to acclimate any of the larger snakes such as burms or retics to being handled while they are still a manageable size so that they are easier to work with when they are giants. I personally don't handle any of my snakes other than for general maintenance or photography.

Originally posted by Invictus
However, the way the argument was presented, it was portraying ALL snakes as being stressed when you handle them. This is simply not the case.

I'm going to have to disagree. No snakes enjoy being handled, hence it present -some- level of stress on them. Not all snakes are highly stessed by it, and some tolerate it extremely well, but it is not something they enjoy, hence it must cause -some- level of stress, though not apparently evident. Snakes have to be highly stressed before the exhibit signs of it.

[Invictus]

Originally posted by chondro python
[B]I personaly find it hard to debate with ppl that have just a feew years under there bet I say this meaning less then 5. Simply cause they are still in the my snake loves me stage of the herp world. witch is fine we have all started there even I thaught my snakes loved me B4 then I learnd the painfull truth.

Well, I find it hard to debate with someone who has the spelling and grammar level of a 5 year old. It's called a spell checker, chondro. Look into it.

That said, this is the most pompous and arrogant drivel I have ever seen spew forth from you. (And people say I'm bad!) All of a sudden, you're a godlike being of knowledge, and you find it hard to debate with people who have less than a certain amount of experience which you, the almighty lord of snake behavior knowledge, has arbitrarily decided is enough knowledge and experience to keep up with you in a debate? And you are the keeper of the "painful truth"? Well show me the painful truth, oh god of knowledge. And back it up with a behavioral study.

By the way, I know people who have been herp keeers for 6 months who know more about herps than some people I've known who have been raising them for decades. So don't assume that because you've decided that 5 years is the magical time for people to keep up with you in a debate, that they don't know something that maybe you don't.

Now before you jump down my throat about being pompous here, I was proving a point; you are still learning too, I guarantee it. You have no more right to say that your opinion in this matter is fact than anyone else who thinks snakes are capable of love. You don't have proof, and neither do they. But then again, I don't have the magical 5 years of experience, so I guess I just have to take your word for it.

Sorry if this post seems hostile. I felt yours was hostile. I tend to fight fire with fire, especially in a debate. I look forward to your reply.

[Jayson]

Aaron You oviously did not read my entire post. Because it was not one snake under one rock it has been many snakes under many rocks and today they were not even under rocks they were all out sunning them selves in the open.

P.S I was posting under the wifes nic this morning. Forgot to switch log ins sorry for the confusion

Jason

[reptilesalonica]

I tend to fight fire with fire....
The fire won't put off with fire my friend, the fire will put off with water or dirt. Fire brings fire, unless you want to bring more fire. ;)
~Greg~

[marisa]

Although we cannot talk to animals people HAVE done studies on this and I believe it was Eyespy (forgive me if I am wrong please Eyespy) who brought up the fact that the just don't seem to have ABILITY or "brain parts" to even make love or emotion. I found this single qoute on an animal website and I believe it is along the lines of what Eyespy had mentioned in another thread:

"The snake's brain (in structure) is very similar to a bird's brain but the snakes lacks the enlarged cerebral hemispheres found in birds and mammals. The cerebral is the part of the brain, which contains the learning. Sine the absence of the cerebral hemispheres, it is correct to say that snakes aren't very intelligent. But they can learn a fair amount. Some snakes have learnt when their feeding times are and often the owner will find them waiting. "


If the brain needed to make love and other emotions, or other learning processes isn't there, how can people argue and say it is?

Some interesting articles:
http://www.cs.rochester.edu/users/faculty/dana/csc240_Fall97/***5/Gabriel_Potter.html
http://www.lasuerte.org/omesnakes.htm
http://www.myiguana.com/emandphyl.html


Some of these articles are for the point they may feel some are against I guess, some have nothing to do with the topic but are interesting anyways. LOL. Reading is good! :D

I honestly don't KNOW if they can feel or not. But I do feel that sometimes over estimating their feelings can be a bad husbandry practice because frankly some snakes ARE stressed out by handling and low levels of constant stress (which if a snake has they may still feed and act normal, doesnt mean the low levels aren't there) has been known to cause problems in many species of animals. So lets say a person buys a snake and "loves" it so much it ends up stressing out and eventually not eating and dying? I would think the safest thing to tell people is that snakes are solitary and handling is fine, but not like your dog or gerbil.

Anyways good topic folks. As for me? I prefer to leave them alone for the most part, and handle only when needed basically. They do fine without it and so far I haven't heard evidence to suggest they NEED it, so they go without it from me. :D

Marisa

[LdyDrgn]

Of course they do not need it, but what if the desire is there?

If one did not want to be bothered by human interaction then they would slither off into the opposite direction. I have a couple that do just that. Surprisingly enough however, one of my most stubborn feeders as of late was taken to the herp society meeting last night for a presentation. She was handled quite a bit, passed around from person to person because they had never seen a Savu python in person before. And what do you know, she STILL ate later that evening.

We have snakes that lift their bodies and climb up without even wanting them to, LOL. Morti will go to straighten the pvc perches in MacBeth's (the male Moluccan) enclosure and he will come straight out to Morti instead of going sideways and behind the enclosure and tv.

Need? Certainly not. Want? Could be, it seems (I said SEEMS!!) that many enjoy it. As soon as they discontinue to view a human as a threat, one would imagine that they 'enjoy' the exercise we offer them.

I would also like to add the behaviour of some snakes around certain people. The previous keeper of MacBeth swore up and down about the vileness of the animal. How he had bit him in the face several times. Morti has had MacBeth for over a year now and has not been bitten once. What does that say? That Morti is a better handler? Well, yes, I think he is, but then I'm partial, hehe. But I do think that some snakes have preferences, like birds do, for certain people. Why does my Irian Jaya always strain to get back to me if someone else is holding her? Many behaviour characteristics are present but not quite explainable because of their inability to communicate on a level we can understand, or vice versa.

:)

[marisa]

It could say they were underfeeding it.

Not that I am saying he hasn't changed but alot of behaviours are taken as something else. A sick snake will appear to newbies as "tame and friendly" when in reality it is just weak....sometimes...or a snake kept too cold will also be super "friendly" because everytime people handle him its his only chance to get warm....etc etc...My male snow loki always WANTS to come out but that doesn't mean he can express or even feel love. Enjoyment of stimui? Maybe. Hoping the person who ALWAYS brings him food is going to have more food? Most likely.

I honestly do not believe they strive for human interaction. Why? Because snakes in the wild would display some behavior suggesting they need companionship. Sure garters do but they are not the majority of snakes, and have specilized brumation habits. Birds do require human interaction, and crave it. But this is because they display a need for companionship in the wild as well, if not more so.

My personal thoughts are this, its all well and good to feel like they love us, but I almost promise that the most friendly, human craving snake in the world could easily go on living alone if heating and food opportunities presented themselves, never seeking out another human. In the end these animals evolved to be hunters and killers, not pack animals and not companion animals.

Not to say they can't be, but I think this says alot about what we expect from them now. We would all love to think they love us back but in reality they are living off insticnt IMHO and the same one that's our best friend could just as easily live in the wild assuming other factors don't count (i.e. knowing how to hunt etc) So in some aspects they do depend and need us, but I think in general they could care less.

IMHO. :D

Marisa

[tHeGiNo]

Its all up to the person whether they need to handle their snake or not. For the snake, the less handling the better off they are.

I don't mean to be rude or anything. Rather I am just asking a question. How exactly do you know this? I mean of course snakes can't talk.

I'm going to have to disagree. No snakes enjoy being handled, hence it present -some- level of stress on them. Not all snakes are highly stessed by it, and some tolerate it extremely well, but it is not something they enjoy, hence it must cause -some- level of stress, though not apparently evident.

Again, I don't know if there is enough information to present that as a fact. Also, I've heard and seen on the discovery channel that a little bit of stress in captive animals is good for them. This is due to the fact that it keeps them active and aware of their surroundings as they would be in the while, or something of the like.

[tHeGiNo]

Also, I would like someone to prove my way of thinking wrong. I am not saying this in a way where my opinion is king of all opinions. I am saying this is how I see it and would like to know where I am wrong to improve my way of thinking. I feel that occassional handling is good for the snake. Becoming 'acclimated' to the presence of human beings, in my opinion, is essential. I mean contact at one point or the other is inevitable. Moving cages, cleaning cages, feeding if you remove them to a feed box, or even opening the enclosure for feeding. Human interaction is not limited to this only, however these are just instances of interaction that come to mind and the time being. Now wouldn't you think that if a snake is already acclimated to you, these occassions would be much easier on them? Seeing the human as not being a threat would also remove any fear when they fear, smell, or see you coming, would it not?