Would you be anti-venomoid if.....

[stkkts]

there was another way of doing it?

It seems to me, that making a snake a venomoid is alot like declawing a cat. Its only for the owners benefits, its puts alot of stress on the animal, it changes the animals confidence and attitude, and is just unnecessary.

But there are these little plastic covers you can put of the cats nails. Its non surgical, its much less stressful. It leaves the animal confident, feeling like it can still defend itself, it can walk the same, but it doesnt destroy furniture.

If there was a method like this, something that was much less invasive. Something non surgical, that presented very little to no health risk or stress to the animal, would you still be against it?

Im curious to know if its the procedure to make a snake a venomoid that your are against, or more just the concept of making it a venomoid.

[Scales Zoo]

It is both.

The surgery is unnecessary. Any good vet will refuse to perform un-necessary procedures. If the handler is not prepared to handle full blown hots, then they should not, Period.

The venomoid concept I cannot understand. Why would someone take a perfectly good snake and butcher it? It is like buying the car of your dreams and taking the engine out of it. At least you won't hurt yourself going for a ride!

Those who do it for the thrill without the danger should watch more REAL TV

Sheila

[Bartman]

no im not REALLY against it but if i was i would only not like the fact that its stressful for the animal but if they found another way to be able to surgecly take out the, or block, the venom than i wouldnt see why that would be bad. just my 2 cents.

[Bryce Masuk]

Imo Venomoids could be useful In training people to handle hots. If they maintain the same speed and attitude but I am not sure if they do. for the most part its unnessary but it could help Educate people And save lives

[Gregg M]

I am gonna have to disagree with you there Bryce....... A venomoid would not make a good "practice" snake for the simple fact you will know it is not venomous anymore and you will not respect it the same as you would a truley hot snake....... You can and will take chances with a venomoid that you should never take with a hot snake....... If anything I think a venomoid would instill very bad habbits instead....... I still can not find a good reason to hack up a venomous snake...... You need to be ready and stable in a mental way in order to keep venomous snakes safely and yo will NOT get that from a venomoid....... I dont hate venomoid snakes, just the people that hack them up to make 4 times the money....... And the man that was mentioned above is a person that does venomoid hack jobs in his basement...... The name of his "buisiness" is Snake Charmer........ His name is Frank Buffo I believe........ He is always at the Hamburg PA shows........ I will not even deal with a vendor that sells him snakes at the show..........

[Bryce Masuk]

Your right in the mental aspect But They have the same attitude and speed you still can learn things from a physical aspect

But I understand what your talking about in the mental aspect

[Matt]

people getting into hots need to have a mentor or teacher. the only way venomoids will be useful in learning is if the mentor knows that it is void, but lets the student believe that it is still entirely hot.
that way, the student thinks they are dealing with a dangerous snake, but the mentor knows any slip ups will not result in an envenomation

Im still against venomoids, even for this purpose

[Scales Zoo]

I am with Matt and Gregg on this one...if you do not think you can handle a full blown hot, DONT.

Any vet who would remove the venom glands from a perfectly good snake, should carry on with the surgery to remove the brains and balls of the human paying for the surgery, if he can find any there.

You want to handle a gaboon that wont kill you if it bites you, buy taxidermy.

If you cant run with the big dogs, STAY ON THE PORCH!

Sheila

When it comes to venomous, I'll stay on the porch with a retic.

[Bryce Masuk]

Facts are Voids will continue to exist no matter what .people de-bark dogs and de-claw cats all the time and its perfectly legal.
I can see voids being useful in a few situations. I also see the faults. Another thing to think of is the fact the snake barely knows what has happened. If done correctly I dont see a huge problem with it. If you dont want void's quite simply dont buy void's. I would try to keep a open mind and see it from more then one perspective.

[reverendsterlin]

voids will continue, but I'll never buy, always complain, and belittle the owners

[BurmBaroness]

OK, I don't keep hots, never want to. That is just not something I aspire to do. However, I know people who do, who I consider friends. I feel very strongly about venomoids, mainly that it is just plain CRUEL. It is not natural, and not necessary. If I'm not mistaken, and please ven-keepers, correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that there are some vens whose venom actually starts the digestive process for the snake. If I am remembering that correctly, then you are distubing the snake's natural body processes as well. I am little dog, I will be very happy on the porch where hots are concerned, but I do not support nor will I any breeder/dealer/keeper of venomoids.

[Scales Zoo]

Bryce, no offense, but from a veterinary point of view, and a herpetologists point of view, I simply cannot agree that venomoids are even remotely a good idea.

Using v'oids for education does nothing to further educate the public. It teaches people who know less than nothing about snakes that there is an "operation" to remove the "fangs" and "venom". Handling venomous snakes in the presence of the public should be reserved for the experts. A venomoid cobra is hardly a cobra anymore, just a sad and sorry specimen that is a shadow of its former glory.

As someone who lacks the reflexes, coordination and discipline required to keep hots, I NEVER considered venomoids. As curator of a reptile zoo, I would love to have a collection of venomous snakes on display, but refuse to do it without the proper training and skill, and refuse to buy a mutilated snake to be put on display.

Out of respect for the true venomous keepers - Matt, Gregg, BW and Ray, I am going to remove myself from this argument, as it is pointless and only serves to test my patience. Void enthusiasts will buy voids, people will drive drunk, and children will be born into situations where they do not belong. It does not mean I dont have an open mind, I just do not agree.

There is no way in hell that you can argue that the snake does not know what happened, until you have been a snake. The venomoid surgery in no way compares to de-barking or declawing, except as a matter of convenience. Any human that alters an animal for their own convenience, does not care about the animal itself, and is that not the purpose of keeping it in the first place?

On the porch,
Sheila

[Gregg M]

Personally I think declawing, debarking, cutting down k9's, cropping ears and tails is all cruel....... So in that aspect they are the same as voids...... It is a shame what some animals have to endure so they can be kept conveniantly..... Sheila, I aplaud your stance on venomoids....... It always souds nicer to me when a person that does not keep venomous has the same views....... To me that shows pure respect for the reptiles....... Your comment are always welcome here Sheila......

[Kyle Barker]

Im with gregg.

people de-bark dogs and de-claw cats all the time and its perfectly legal.

Come on man, you live in BC. You think that because our government makes it legal its right? wait no, i didnt say that. I *try* to keep an open mind. But in my mind it is animal cruelty. Just my thoughts.

[fatboy]

OK, I have yet to chime in on voids so here we go. I don't care for them nor would care to own one. I will not look down on another keeper for keeping one though. Yes, I could see it being beneficial to a new hot keeper to see a void in action.....you say it wouldn't be the same but I am sure no one wants a fang in them still. No, I don't think they could move from void to hot but I still see it beneficial. As for cats and dogs....even if I did care it wouldn't change anything so why waste my time. Same on voids....some want to push to outlaw the practice but that is still bringing unwanted attention to the venomous community. Just my 2 cents....blast me.

[Bryce Masuk]

Kyle what I was trying to show is that people Change animals all the time legally and if They did the same thing to a ven it would be of little difference and if it was legal There would be far less improper surgery done there for less pain for the snakes less snakes die and so on and so on. Personally i will never de-bark a dog or de claw a cat But my friend owns 2 dogs that are de-barked and he loves them both They had to either have the surgery done or the dogs would be put in the pound so they had no choice. I wouldnt own a void either but I can see a few reasons why people would want to own one and illegalizing it would only increase the demand and bring down the quality of surgeons there for causing more problems.
People have unnessary surgery done to themselves as well as animals accept it and it will continue untill the end of time

[Kyle Barker]

ah hok i see your point. I dont have any thoughts on the lagality of it, im just against it... There are always gray areas tho.

[Gregg M]

People have unnessisary surgery........ That is true but it is that person who chooses to have it........ Hey Bryce, would you want someone giving you breast implants against your will???? I am gonna guess your answer is no........ Do you think that dog does not want to bark or that cat didnt want its claws anymore or that snake wanted to get rid of the venom glands incase it bit itself during feeding, or even worse, bit the person that owns it..... Again venomoids are useless and are just another way for man to tame the wild....... Hey if a venomoid was rescued from someone that was not careing for it, I would not turn it away because it was a void...... I will just never buy one and support these butchers....

[stkkts]

Like I initially asked, what if the procedure was non-surgical, and did not cause any stress.

How about this, lets say harry potter came along, did a little magic, and the animal was not venomous anymore.

How would you feel about the venomoids then? Because alot of people are bringing the argument back to the surgery, and the procedure, and how bad it is. But I want to know if you are actually against a venomoid, or against what they have to endure to become a venomoid.

[Matt]

HUH?
people are bringing the argument back to the surguery because tats how it done.....
how do you expect to have an intelligent discussion on the basis of Harry Potter Flew along and made them all non-venomous.....
i dont follow what you want to say here at ALL!

People are usually against venomoids BECAUSE of the cruelty of the procedure and because of the death rate associated with it.

BUT, if you want hypothetical......I WOULD STILL BE AGAINST VENOMOIDS.
one reason, that is how the animal naturally is and was intended to be. We have no right to change that just to meet our needs, especially for people that KNOW they dont have what it takes to keep hots, but they still want to look big and bad, so they alter the original state of the animal to accomplish this.....still ridiculous

[Mustangrde1]

A venomoid is a snake who has been surgically altered. No hypothetical about it. I do not know of any venomous snakes born without the glands,ducts,fangs.To my knowledge the only way a venomous becomes a venomoid is by mans hands.

A venomoid is more of a danger than a true "KNOWN" hot. The reason is simple, If you have a "KNOWN" hot then you take all the needed precautions to ensure your safety. With a venomoid people will take chances, they will freehandle them. Now if this snake does regenerate its glands, ducts, it can then bite and inject venom killing its handler and possibly innocent bystanders.

Are there good reasons for having a void. I have thought long and hard on this issue and come to only two possible reasons for having one. First is for Educational shows for the public. Second is for film work. They do add a security measure for safty. However I feal that the surgery should only be performed by a qualified and licensed Vet.

As there are numerous Laws regarding the surgical standards required for a surgery I find it very difficult to believe that the back yard butchers can maintain a facility that adheres to these laws and codes. Also How do they get prescription narcotics needed to anesthetize the animals or the antibiotics to needed for post operative care.

It is the surgery I am against and the people who perform it. Given that they purchase these animals for the soul purpose of altering an animal for the purpose of higher profits, It is by no means ethical or moral. Bottom line is the great and mighty dollar.

[Kyle Barker]

I wonder how many poeple who are against venemoids have a spayed/nuetered pet? Just throwing it out there...

[stkkts]

I wasnt trying to become illogical by talking about magic, I was just trying to illustrate my point. I understand, that right now, the way you make an animal a venomoid is by intrusive dangerous surgical procedures. But my question was, if there was a safe, way to make an animal a venomoid, would you still be against it.

[Mustangrde1]

Absolutely Not.
It takes away from what the animal is.The animal was born hot man alterring the animal takes away the thing you saw in that first picture or movie shot.

These animals should be loved and admired for what they look like in nature, not what man has done to them.Altering their head stucture takes away the beauty of the animal.Even if the do implants it still never looks the same.

[Scales Zoo]

There is a non-surgical process that will provide you with a non-venomous snake - BUY A CORNSNAKE!

My nephew is afraid of the dentist, perhaps we should pull all of his teeth now and get him some dentures to avoid any further trauma from visits for cavities?

Arguments for spay/neuter are lame, these procedures are carried out to prevent reproduction. There is no alternative, as most animals are born with sex organs. There are however, snakes born/hatched without venom glands, so there is no good reason to butcher a snake by venomoid surgery when there are hundreds of non-venomous snakes to choose from.

Staying on the porch,
Sheila

[Zoe]

A little off topic, but my cat doesn't know she's been declawed - she still tries to sharpen her claws. I got her that way, but seeing the damage she WOULD be doing to the furniture and speakers... lol

But yeah, voids bad.

Zoe

[BlkMambaVenom]

I must say that declawing a cat is waayyy different! I mean if that cat is inside and being taken care of it doesnt need its claws to survive.... where the snake needs its venom to kill its food. I have declawed cats and i dont feel that they are stressed out in anyway being they are taken care of and fed so they have nothing to worry about and no need for the claws. Outside cats need the claws (eventhough i dont think they belong outside) for survival and territorial reasons. Thats my theory and 2 cents worth.
Brittany

[Bryce Masuk]

Brittney your argument Can actually help the pro-venomoid argument the snake lives in captivity It is fed F/T food it has no Predetors It doesnt Need venom to survive anymore It doesnt Know its no longer Venomous You can have more of a safety factor While still keeping the same species
The snake Doesnt Need a choice it doesnt understand what a choice is So its no matter to it
Keep a open mind What need to be done is qualifyed people need to be doing the surgery instead of backyard bozo's

[Scales Zoo]

Originally posted by Bryce Masuk
The snake Doesnt Need a choice it doesnt understand what a choice is So its no matter to it
Keep a open mind What need to be done is qualifyed people need to be doing the surgery instead of backyard bozo's [/B]

I was dismissed for the day when arguing with a professor in biology about whether dogs and cats were color blind or see in black and white. I wondered how he knew for a fact that dogs and cats were color blind if he had never been a cat. He ejected me from the class for being a smart ***, but it is impossible to say that a snake does not know or understand what a choice is. Or what pain is. Or suffering.

I have watched our boa recover from mouth and facial surgery intended to save his life, and let me tell you up front, this snake knew Exactly what was going on. The surgery was delicately performed by a reptile veterinary specialist at the College of Veterinary medicine.It makes me sick to think someone would do this on purpose, let alone in their basement.

Infants and small children do not know or understand choices either, but it is not an excuse to mutilate or abuse them, is it?

In keeping an open mind, remember that there are plenty of non-venomous snakes to choose from. If you cannot assume the risks and responsibilities of keeping venomous, buy something else. It is selfish and senseless to mutilate anything for personal gratification. It is this type of behavior that made me abandon my veterinary career. As much as I loved the animals, I completely underestimated human stupidity.

Sheila

[RevMojo]

I don't keep hots, but am morally opposed to voids, for a number of reasons, most of which you've already given

[jtpRUGGER]

I'm going to spare this thread my rantings and ravings about venomoids. Instead, I will just say this: I love my cat. She likes to scratch stuff. I bought her a scratching post. I love my reptiles. Some of them have fangs and venom. I bought lockable cages and hooks and tongs....If you dont want your furniture scratched, DONT GET A CAT. If you dont want to take the time to properly learn how to deal with venomous reptiles, DONT GET A HOT!

No, if there was a way to "magically" remove the venom glands from my hots I would NEVER have it done. They are true marvels of nature, and the development of venom, and an effective way to use that venom to feed itself, are integral parts of why it is a marvel of nature.

[eyespy]

Putting an animal through the risks of surgery and anesthesia simply because it's more convenient for the owners to deal with a void is just a nasty way of thinking in my opinion. The animals gain nothing, and that's the only time I feel it's an acceptable risk.


I do spay or neuter my mammals because they do better in captivity without strong reproductive urges and creating a horde of offspring that will end up being euthanized in shelters. That's an acceptable tradeoff to me. It's the only elective surgery I've ever had done on any animal.

Voiding a snake isn't an acceptable tradeoff in my opinion. What benefits to the snake are there?

If you can't handle the hots learn to love a different reptile on its own merits.