Venomoids

[SCReptiles]

I am looking for actual information and/or evidence on venomoids, the venomoiding surgery, and health consequences to the animals. As you all know I have been neutral toward this issue in the past, but I may be changing my position. I spoke with Scott on the phone the other day and he tells me that 75% of the snakes die during or directly after the surgery and that another 15% will die from complications steaming from the surgery. If those numbers are accurate then one must kill 9 snakes to get one good void. If my research backs these numbers, then I am definitely joining the anti-void camp. I am not looking for opinions here, I need hard facts, research, and perhaps a contact to someone who actually performs the surgery. Thanks for any help that can be offered.

[stkkts]

I just recently picked up a Neodesha tank from the owner of this company:
http://www.serpentsden.com/

While I was there he had his daughter come out with a rattler (I dont know what kind) around her neck. He assured me it was very docile. Then about 5 minutes later he finally let me in on the fact that it was a venomoid. He told me it was done many years ago by a "snake charmer" and that he was confident that the venom glands hadnt/wouldnt grow back. He stated that the procedure itself is not the problem, but who is doing it, and where and how it is being done. Like untrained people, doing it with "Home venomoid kits" in unsannitary conditions.

I am not trying to present this information in any sort of biased form. Just telling you about the event. Also, the website has a phone number and email. Hopefully you can get more concrete information from the owner directly. He seemed pretty eager to talk.

[Hamster of Borg]

Sorry, I don't have any statistics on the issue, but my question would be, is there even a reptile veterinarian approved standardized surgical procedure? Every surgical procedure generally has a standardized document explaining the process in detail - usually with diagrams showing incision points and what to expect once inside, etc.

I would be willing to bet the statistics you speak of are accurate for the "in house" hack jobs done by people with no surgical training, but the risks should not be so high if done by a professional veterinarian. Though, no matter how you look at it anesthetizing a snake is extremely hard on them and that alone can be fatal. Then the procedure of hacking into their head and removing a large chunk of tissue, which could easily cause shock leading to death... then the post op, where the chance of infection is extremely high unless perfectly sterile conditions are provided. Dunno... I wouldn't put any of my animals through it.

Ham

[Scales Zoo]

http://www.geocities.com/lflank/devenom.html

Having several years of veterinary surgical experience, and owning a boa who underwent surgery to repair a face bitten by a hamster before he was brought to the rescue, I can attest that there is no good medical reason to do this surgery to a venomous snake. The boa was in distress during and after the surgery, and still bears the scars. He is alive and better than he was prior to the surgery (the wound and consequent abcess should have killed him) but he is far from perfect.

It is only my opinion that people considering getting venomoids consider getting something else, like white-lip pythons, or tree boas. No veterinarian should resort to butchering a snake like this. And the person requesting the surgery should have some brains and balls installed.

Just my 2 cents
Sheila

If you can't run with the big dogs, STAY ON THE PORCH!

[SCReptiles]

I have read that page before, I have a link to beginners guide to venomous from my site, however, this page gives no hard facts at all, it is mostly his opinion.

[SCReptiles]

For those who are interested, I found an excellent article today.
http://www.venomousreptiles.org/articles/55?venomsid=62c5be999bad6c409484794fadae28fd

[Scales Zoo]

That is an excellent article, Chuck. The SHHS has a lot of good info, and has an unbiased approach to dispensing it.

[cobraman]

I think the number may be that high when the procedure is done by unqualified people, but I immagine a REAL vet or surgeon would have less mortality rate due to the propper use of both pre and post surgery meds. I still do not think that I could ever recommend a venomoid to anyone other than people using them for educational reasons, or possibly zoos etc. But while I am against venomoids, i will restate that I do not feel that I have the right to dictate to others what they can and can not have, and thank God nobody does that to me.
Be Blessed
Ray Hunter

[Scales Zoo]

I would hope that a REAL vet or surgeon would refuse to perform the procedure.

People who want a gaboon they can just LOOK AT and HANDLE without worry of it biting and envenomating them might just as well be buying a taxidermy specimen.

Like I said before,

If you cant run with the big dogs, STAY ON THE PORCH

Sheila

[shaggybill]

Read the article...I also read the comments after the article and one of them brought up a good point I thought.

Im not saying I agree with the guy, but here it is...

How can you say that taking away their venom is cruel and that "mutilating" their mouth is inhumane when you are keeping them in a dinky little box for the rest of their life. If I was a snake, I would want to be out in the middle of the wilderness, not stuck in a cold piece of tupperware.

Thats what he said in a nutshell. I thought it was a pretty good point. Any comments?

(BTW, I dont like the idea of venomoids, and I dont have anything against you guys who keep snakes.)

[shaggybill]

Shoot, Chuck. I am totally changing the topic of your thread. I didnt even realize it until after I had posted. Maybe we can talk about this somewhere else...

[Gregg M]

Well I know my snakes are not in dinky little boxes....... They have very large cages......... I use 4 foot vision cages for my young ones and as holding cages for my larger ones while I clean out cages......... They have fresh water, food is pretty much handed to them, the get to breed and are kept safe from predators........Ummmm and I dont cut open their faces so I can play with them....... There is no valid reason to keep venomoids or to support the jackasses that butcher them into venomoids.....

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

There is no valid reason to keep venomoids

I'd have to disagree.. Sure, a turtle or a small burm may catch the fancy of a small child but these days speeches that deal in herps don't only cover small children.
We are dealing with adults, adults that dont always care much for turtles or boids of any sort, and to keep the interest of the audience you will have to provide what they are actually interested in and more often than not many want to see venomous, especially the men from teens to adults around here and Im sure many other places. Now, it's just irresponsible to take a hot infront of a large audience, no matter how good and well thought out you or your show is, however to fulfil thier needs show them what they want to see, and I can only substitude many species of hots, such as rattlers with -moids.
Of course with the use of proper handling and techniques noone will suspect it isn't hot but they will not be deprived of thier interest as well. So, there is a need in my book for the all hated section of keeping hots, wheather its liked or not.
Xain - just some rambling.

[Kyle Barker]

We have a little mini show at a park for anyone to come see, held by the university. If they are intersted in seeing a rattlesnake, they can look....through glass. I personally would find it very irresponsible to let some uninformed person(s) to touch one, even if a void. There will always be that one person who doesnt hear the warnings, and goes to pick up the snake they found in the back yard.

I do also think what he said about the housing is a good point, BUT does 2 wrongs make a right?
........Ummmm and I dont cut open their faces so I can play with them.......
:D My thoughts exactly.
To me it is like cutting out the neck muscles in a retic so it cant restrict you. Just my opinions, no offense intended.

Chuck. There is a guy in/by seattle somewhere that comes up here to do the operations on a bunch of ven's(i have nothing to do with it!). I will ask for his name and contact info (if i can get).
There is also a local vet that says he does them, but requires the antivenom for that particular snake. Ill look him up also.

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Though a good idea, not all of us can do a show behind a glass wall/border for many reasons, but something to think about..
As for the touching, ya' missed the statement of treating the
-moid like a hot, thereas no touching or even freehandling. Signs and verbal warnings will do, if one of the veiwers care to pick up an animal after they are told and seen not to, I guess the Human genes may become stronger..
Xain

[Scales Zoo]

I am sure that the popularity of the crocodile huter and the venomoid procedure is part of the reason we are asked if our giant pythons have had their venom removed, or their fangs removed.

We choose to maintain an entirely non-venomous collection. I would not consider keeping v'oids. I keep plenty of pictures on the walls of people bitten by venomous snakes, to show people who wonder why we don't keep venomous. There is no glamour in being in intensive care for weeks, if you are so lucky. And the missing fingers would really mess with daily activities.

If you insist on educating the public with venomous snakes, invest your money in good taxidermy. In the long run, it is kinder to the snake, and there is no FAKE about it.

If you are trying to impress the crowd, try adding sword swallowing or fire breathing to your act. At least it will be genuine. Butchering a perfectly good snake in the spirit of showmanship is completely wrong.

Forgive my strong opinion, but the only Cobra or Viper I intend to impress people with will be parked in the garage, they are really nice cars.

I guess we are in a fortunate position, if we want to show someone a venomous snake, we travel a few miles from our front door and visit the densites of croatalus viridis.

I will stick to the giant pythons, as they also have the power and potential to kill. So did the dozens of horses I owned over the years.

Gregg, Matt, BW and Mr Hunter - I admire your discipline and conviction when it comes to venomous snakes - there really is nothing like the REAL thing, is there?

Sheila

[SCReptiles]

Here is an interesting piece on voids written by Hank Molt. As with most void writings, its all conjecture and no hard facts. But he makes some interesting points on how voids can negatively effect the entire community.
http://www.globalherp.com/id44.htm

[SCReptiles]

Here is a pro-void piece written by Rick Kellner.
http://www.efn.org/~ore_herp/archive/m97.html

[Kyle Barker]

Gregg, BW and Mr Hunter - I admire your discipline and conviction when it comes to venomous snakes - there really is nothing like the REAL thing, is there

I agree, good stuff!.

Very interesting articles chuck. I still think the pro void argument is pretty weak. So many better reasons not to, i think.

Xain, i understand it cant always be done, if not a physical barrier at least a distance barrier. But i have seen people allow little children to hold void rattlers. It just seems like a moronic thing to do. Not everyone will realize the true danger of the real thing.

Not to start another croc hunter thread but, he always says its dangerous or dont muck with them etc... But people still want to be him.

[Gregg M]

Chuck.... Thanks for posting those...... Like kyle said the venomoid argument is a weak one in my opinion....... Sheila, I will be sure to visit your zoo when I am out there....... I would love to check it out....... I hear it is pretty good and the reptiles are very well taken care of.......... You should think of displaying venomous there at some point........ All you need is a good experianced keeper to maintain the displays...... If there is a job opening maybe I will become a Canadian....LOL......

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

I'm by no means trying to change anyones veiw of their opinions, I am just putting that their are reasons for the doings, whether you surrport it or not really dosen't bother me, it's a no win issue unless stricter laws are passed on the whole hot ordeal. I personally do not keep -moids but I'm not gonna limit my mind that it should only go one way about this or that..
As for the boundary ordeal good idea, but being you have an audience will distract you more often than not with all the commotion and the such so even with a border an accident can happen, and as I've said, people want to see hots, Maybe not in your area and the whole boid gig is over done and most I know of dont care to see one.. I get people coming over wantig to see the crocs and hots (When I have more than two hots) Not the turtles, nor any boid I have kept.. Plus, a pic can be shown anywhere, and not many people care, but if you show the animal and add the pictures I bet the image will progress further.. But this is what I know on a personal experience, It may be different up north, or wherever you care to be.. And for the record, I don't agree to any redneck or hotshot to having one..





Like kyle said the venomoid argument is a weak one in my opinion

I agree, I'm just adding why not to be so shotfaced on a topic..
Kyle, anyone who would allow a venomous species to be touched - moid or not should be shot, unless it was properly contained, such as being tubed, and explain the isk factors and reasoning its being done and the proper and common routine of hots in general, nothing wrong in my mind with it.. Noone will know the snake is a -moid if they are not told, and they shouldnt be told.. Any person willing to pick up a snake after being told the dangers and risks are at their own fult and I will feel no pity for them.. I think Chuck had the good terminology on the whole electrician thing, and I liked it.
People who want to be like Irwin, are morons (not saying Irwin is) but these people need lives and realize everyone are their own persons..
But this is all personal opinions and observations.. Figured Id share whether its agreed or not..
Xain

[Kyle Barker]

I totally agree. Just a little hard headed on my stance against certain procedures t animals... Even so i think they do have their uses, although IMO not too many. Keep in mind i have never owned a hot so my opinion probably isnt worth much, but there ya have it.

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Little purpose they do have but they have none the less. And according to your last post I am on the same boat, Im just not blind and the whole whatknot, and yours opinion is just as valid as any others here, being they are just that. And thats that in a nutshell.
Xain