Poll:How do you feel about HYBRID snakes?

[Aztec Fred]

Poll: How do you folks here feel about the crossing or hybridization of diffrent types of snakes? Either locality or family.
Examples of some crosses that are being worked on, the majority in the United States:

Burmese PythonXreticulated Python
Anaconda X Argentine Boa constrictor
Anaconda X Brazilian Rainbow boa
Nicaraguan boa XColombian boa(Salmon hypos)
Ball Python X angolan Python
Ball Python x BloodPython
Salmon Hypo Boa X Argentine Boa
Cornsnake X Kingsnake
Gophersnake X Cal. Kingsnake
Sinaloan Milksnake X Cal. Kingsnake
Jungle Carpet PythonXDiamond Python
Bredls Python X jungle Carpet Python
Green tree pythons XCarpet python


These are just a few. Personally I think they truly suck, but that just my opinion. More importantly than what I think..what do YOU think? Please respond.

Thanks,

Fred Albury
(Aztec Reptiles U.S.A.)

[SilverTongue]

both good and bad...lets say the sweet lil corn you broght home and housed in your cage with your other corn till you have everything set up ....you go to get it out and low and behold he ate your other corn.

not into anything king...being bred with anything not king...but everything else is fine by me

[sSNAKESs.com]

I think its fine... Carpondro.. jcp x gtp being my favorite :P

[Linds]

I think it's awful. I am 110% against hybridization. I especially almost came to tears when I saw the pictures of the salmon/argentine cross. These animals wouldn't be crossing themselves in nature for a good reason (as well as most of them wouldn't even encounter eachother since many of them are from different locations). Once an animal is crossed that virtually eliminates any security for that species being a pure species years down the line. I would like to be able to hold an animal an know for certain it is 100% pure, not 98%. Look at what happened with the Burmese and Indian python? And the Red wolf and coyotes? Two species completely extinct due to outcrossing. There are no words for how wrong this practice is.....

[Grant vg]

I'm with fred, linds, and corey......i find it absolutely wrong and quite pathetic....especially for the first time snake keepers who after having there first two snakes (of different species) they come on the forums asking whether they can breed them.......

Quite upsetting IMO.....

Me personally, I would love to breed for the pureness of the species, rather then against it....

I've been on the hybrids forum before, and each and every post is quite discusting to read.....

Those ppl respect snakes as a commodity and not as a animal of nature....IMO

Theres a reason why snakes arn't large like a blood and tame like a ball....its called EVOLUTION>.......and within a matter of a couple decades, everything that has evolved in nature will be diminished in captivity.....and i thought thats exactly what we arn't trying to do....

A big Hip Hip Hooray! goes out to all the purebred breeders out there!:)

[sSNAKESs.com]

Well i see all of your points, but IMO, if you are advertising sales of your Hybrid animals like Dr.Frankenstein, I dont see any problem in it... I just think its silly to think about snakes like this and then own un pure bred animals like cats...

[SilverTongue]

WTG Jeff! I agree!!!!!

I am ok with things like ratsnake and cornsnake, but I personmally think they are the same anyways. I would never even dream to mix a python with a gardersnake. The only thing they have in common is the fact they are snakes. They dont even eat the same things. IMHO

[Quervo]

Well Jeff, I'm afraid I'm going to use your comment against you. Un pure breeds like cats should be the biggest reason NOT to cross snakes. There are too many people that think it's "cool" to come up with something like the sphinx cats. A hairless cat, there's a usefull animal. They just do it because they can.
Cross breeding can give you some very unexpected results, most of them are just not good. What if one of these crosses escapes? Ever hear of killer bees?
Yes, it's tempting to make your own critter, but there are just too many down sides .. and I like them just the way they are thanks. :)

[sSNAKESs.com]

I also have to add, if people are worried about the strength and purity of there animals genes... breeding to achieve hypomelanism and snow animals is damaging to the gene pool, heck even albinism is a sign of weakened genes.. IMO Hybrids are definatly cool, and if we can play god and incubate our animals eggs, why cant we match make for them!! just my 0.2cents

[sSNAKESs.com]

Quervo, i ssee your point :) BUT i was using the cats against people who say they are against hybrids but own mutts and unpure cats! :)

[sSNAKESs.com]

Originally posted by Grant vg
Those ppl respect snakes as a commodity and not as a animal of nature....IMO

I see your point to Grant, but whats worse, breeding a hybrid or having people keep "a animal of nature" in a sweatbox rubbermaid rack on paper towel... I dont see ANYTHING natural about that...

[sSNAKESs.com]

Originally posted by Quervo
There are too many people that think it's "cool" to come up with something like the sphinx cats. A hairless cat, there's a usefull animal. They just do it because they can.

A hairless cat or a all white snake that used to be black and gold.. If people are against hybrids then they should also be against the support of captive breeding of snakes with MUTATIONS...

[sSNAKESs.com]

Who likes Miniature Pinchers??? or Toy Poodles... and the countless other numbers of species of dogs that were created by breeding 2 differant species together... what about us??? Because someone is a native of indonesia, gives them the right not to be able to have children with a white person from Greenland??? Both Humans, from differant locations... and offspring will be neither... Hybridization is happening everyday in every aspect of live... Feel free to repond, i want to start a heated debate! hehehe

[sSNAKESs.com]

Sorry, but i like this topic... Now as the reptile industry grows... hybridization will become more and more popular! Like differant breeds of dogs... they are having to add new species to the "PURE BRED" category every year... as long as there is a demand for something, it will be done... so before you knock the snake hybridization just think about other hybrids you like and people you know who are not "pure" and dont be so quick to judge! :) now someone argue with me!! im getting sick of talking to myself! LOL

[rattekonigin]

I don't see anything horribly wrong with hybridization, but I personally wouldn't hybridize any of my animals, what would be the point? Usually, when people are breeding an animal, they are trying to achieve purebreds...purebred dogs, for example, have been selectively bred for decades to emphasize certain traits...this is sort of like what people are doing with corns and BP's by making albinos and whatnot. Only problem is that if you're getting a corn snake, how can you be 100% sure it hasn't got some milk or king snake intergrade in it's lineage? With dogs, if you want a REAL purebred, you buy one from a CKC registered breeder, but there's no such organization for herp breeders, so you can't be sure. I think that if you want to create a hybrid snake, fine. Just don't breed it into your other lines, and then market the offspring down the line as something they're not. Hybrids should be a pet-only type deal. IMO

[sSNAKESs.com]

Good point Ratte!! I have to agree with you :)

[RaVeNo888o]

I dont see anything really wrong with hybridization. I think that as long as there are still ppl who breed pure or in the same subspecies than everything is fine. that way there are the pures and the hybrids and you can choose what u like and not have to deal with the other. hybridization is fine within reason of course.

[K-DOG]

Jeff and Correy as well as the rest of you all have vaild points to make on the hot topic hybridization. But it come down to, every-one has a right to thier own opinion. As for me I am still undesided but do entertain the idea of the Amazon X Emerald.

Thanks
Kevin

[reverendsterlin]

Heyas Fred :)
My problem with hybrids is Mr. Joe Bubblegumpopper that buy the hybrid and breeds it, produces it, then sells it to Mr. Whocares and the genetics are lost to the unsuspecting buyer down the road. If they have to breed them they and any buyers should be responsible for id chips, unfortunately down the road someone won't so I'm against hybrids. JMHO
Sterling

[Linds]

Originally posted by Jeff ********
IMO Hybrids are definatly cool, and if we can play god and incubate our animals eggs, why cant we match make for them!! just my 0.2cents

Incubating eggs is NOT playing god, it is simulating nature. Captive breeding programs assist nature in the survival of species. It cannot be compared in any way to creating hybrids. Those are not naturally occurring, hence the term "playing god". And once hybridzation of a species occurs, the threat of its extincition as a pure species is just as real as the extinction of a species due to habitat destruction, overcollection, etc etc.

[Jaylyn]

I admit I don't know the first thing about snakes - when you talk about hybridizing you are talking about breeding two different species?? If you are - then you can't use the cat and/or dog argument. Crossbreeding cats/dogs can be liken to breeding different colour morphs - not breeding two different species. You aren't creating a new species when you breed a poodle and a boxer - just a morph, but still a dog.

I agree with Lindsay - creating hybrids (which is a rarity in the wild) puts a species at risk. If wild populations are decimated and captive ones are hybridized - that species is gone.

Breeding for albinoism/colour may certainly weaken the gene pool - but we also breed for non-agressive behavior and lack of fear. The colours and temperments we are culturing are not for the benefit of the wild animal. Bright red bearded dragons and chameleons that are docile would not survive in the wild. I'm getting a little off topic - but the average keeper cannot expect to produce animals for captive realease. Captive release programs must be closely monitored to produce animals that will thrive in the wild and not put indeginous animals at risk (either through disease and/or behavior). That being said, captive propagation does lessen the strain on wild-caught populations (obviously!).

So, by breeding for colour and temperment we can increase the "attractiveness" of CB over WC. Breeding for a new species is not necessay - that kind of activity is up on top of my "scary" list along with cloning. We have no business playing there - it crosses over the line.

If I'm correct in assuming you're talking about breeding two different species - are the offspring fertile? Or is it like breeding donkeys and horses?


Jaylyn

[Jezabel]

I'm only against hybrid when it's done with animal that are rare in captivity (like diamond X jungle or angolan X ball). It seem to me that it's done for some people cause they can't find another one of the same species to breed with so they find another species... and I think it's reason to do so.

They have already hybridyze cats and dog. For exemple, they have cross wulf and dog, cat and african serval or leopard cat)

[Quervo]

A hairless cat or a all white snake that used to be black and gold.. If people are against hybrids then they should also be against the support of captive breeding of snakes with MUTATIONS...

Ahhh .. Jeff, there's the rub. You're absolutely right. It is quite hypocrytical to say "no hybrids" and yet drool over the latest :designer" snake. I guess it's like my offgassing rants. You can't stop all of it, but hopefully you can draw the line somewhere.

I'm like everyone else .. I'd kill for a piebald, I'd probably drool over the emerald X amazon someone mentioned, but I still have a problem with stepping over that line and actually crossing species. I'd like to think that if I was offered the aformentioned (yay .. big words) cross, that I would have the scruples to say no.

[Nicky]

um i'm neutural don't care i'm not into hybreds unless there closeley related

[Aztec Fred]

Jeff ******** and others,

HYBRIDIZATION...in this case the practice of crossing two snakes from the same family but diffrent locales(i.e. Nicaraguan and Colombian Boa constrictors)
OR
Crossing two snakes that are NOT from th e same group, and do not share similar habitats nor geographic ranges(I.e. anaconda andArgentineboa)

Cannot be compared to someone line breeding dogs or cats to create a diffrent look, WHY? Because even in line breeding cats, you are still dealing with Felix domesticus, domestic cats.
NOW if you were to take, lets say a BOBCAT and cross it with a house cat, then that would be hyrbridization.Plain ans simple

WHAT is going on in the herpetocultural community is just this:
You have anumber of breeders, eager for profits and basically either bored or wanting to produce something"NEW" at any cost, who are commited to crossing snakes to get somethingNEW.

Do you think for one minute that they would cross them if they thought that what they produced would look like either parent 100%?What would be the rational behind that?
No..they do so so that they may nake something NEW

The PUBLIC has an insatiable desire and hunger for NEW things.
Witness Reptiles magazine, and the many new morphs(Not hybrids but morphs of non crossbred snakes) that grace the front cover. The PUBLIC eats this up

NOW realize this:

most peole that are new to this hobby, that may be buying these snakes, have NO idea of the natural history of the animal, where they come from, what the area looks like, the temps, the humidity,...NOTHING.
We haver separated the animal from its natural envionment. HOW many of these people have ever gone out or will ever go out to collect snakes in the wild and seee, first hand , what the enviornemt they live in islike, and make the connection.


Answer: NOT MANY

The hybrid crap is basically part of it.We now help create animals which are an abomination, which would never exists in the wild(BallXBlood...please...) and which, when bred tiogether produce genetic hodegpodge

Someone here said it is going to become more popular in the future. I guess then the people that are heavily into it now will be the ones laughing to the bank. But then...........thats what this is all about....................makeing money.....turning a profit..................haveing bragging rights...............
The same thing happedn with pot bellied pigs and brids.....the hobby gets consumed with those that desire to make this their livelyhood, no matterwhat the cost to us all.

I choose not to buy them
You must choose for yourself
Remember, what is NEW today to you
will be old in 3 years time
And no longer the novelty it was


Fred Albury
(Aztec Reptiles)

AS ALWAYS:

NO HYBRIDS

NO IMPORTS

NO I.B.D.

NO MITES

NO LIES

[corrado]

let the genes where they are(NATURES WAY)

[Jeff_Favelle]

Also folks....
Keep in mind that the whole species classification model is man-made. Animals don't always necessarily follow the model to a tee either. I mean, the current definition of a species is "a like organism that can reproduce and produce fertile offspring". Well then, I guess that makes corns and kings the same species! Lamproelaphe I guess?!!

Sure prezygotic and postzygotic barriers to inter and intra species breeding exist in the wild, but how many of those are also man-made? Mountains may be natural, but vast stretches of urban wasteland isn't. Also, keeping snakes in captivity and breeding them and letting EVERY SINGLE baby survive (including runts and kinks etc etc) isn't very natural either. Promoting weak genes may be more harmful than "hybrids". But that doesn't seem to matter, now does it. Why have a clutch/litter of 20 snakes where only 5 would normally live? That's only 1/4 of the profits!! Better to have all 20 live AT ALL COSTS! Then the profits are much bigger so we can get more snakes to artificially breed in captivity to further perpetuate our "unnatural" hobby.

Just a different side. Do whatever you want to do as long as you treat the animals as you would want to be treated.

[Jotun]

Well here's my 3 cents (yes 3 :) )

I am by far no animal rights activist and I dont love all animals. I can tolerate most but some (ie HAMSTERS) really get under my skin. As far as hybridization, I think it's cruel to the animal and should not be done. We already "play god" via incubation times, breeding times, captive environment etc, but this is fairly harmless if taken repsonsibly. In my opinion, hybridization is just a line that shouldnt be crossed. We [the human race] are already using genetics to our advantage in creating something NEW as Aztec Fred stressed. The list is already rising with new hybrids such as the wolf/german shephard, why add something else? Before you know it we'll be seeing OctoParrots and IguanaRats in the pet stores. Hybridization is just another line that in my opinion should not be crossed.

[Rusty Powers]

Hi all, I just wanted to point something out really quickly... With everyone speaking and comparing on cat and dog purebreds against snakes etc....I have learned through vet work that more purbreed dogs end up sick with disease... I.e Rottwielers (sp?) are more prone to cancer then a shepard X Rotti. Mix breeds of both dogs and cats almost seem healthier. I do realize that this is a very broad statement and doesn't have much to do with topic, But something to think about
Thanks
RUSTY

[gunnerslakeshor]

Well to me honestly think about it at one point and time ALL snakes where wild until someone decided hey i,d like that as a pet and poof it begins.
Well unless you where there to see the parents of those wild babys mate then you really dont know for sure just what you have and over the long haul no one does.
Now sure joebob has a surinam and this is a STANDARD to what you call a surinam nothing more. it very well may have a bit of guyanese in it but if it looks to be what the STANDARD surinam looks like then thats what we call it . In MHO they could all be mixed up .
All i know for sure is i dont knowingly buy the mixed breed snakes , i dont breed them iether.
Sure it sounds messed up but if you think about it maybe is was ment to be ?????
Just my 1 cent worth
Phil

[crimsonking]

Bingo!

[BIG SCOTT]

I think it ir ridiculous uless it happens in nature which i'm sure it ocassionally does. If they are going to breed Boas with other kinds of boas thats seems fine like the Red-tail with the Argintine. But when they start doing crap like anacondas and Brazilian rainbow boas it seems ridiculous not to mention they may look hidious when the results are out. I think what is on the market now is good. when these new snakes come out the prices are going to be so damn high knowone will be able to afford them.

[BeHeMoTh]

i say hybrid all you want but dont do stupid stuff like BIG SCOTT said like anacondas and a gtp



hmmmm i wonder what that would look like

[coltiger]

Originally posted by reverendsterlin
Heyas Fred :)
My problem with hybrids is Mr. Joe Bubblegumpopper that buy the hybrid and breeds it, produces it, then sells it to Mr. Whocares and the genetics are lost to the unsuspecting buyer down the road. If they have to breed them they and any buyers should be responsible for id chips, unfortunately down the road someone won't so I'm against hybrids. JMHO
Sterling


Not meaning to start this up again.

You make a good point but in reality how many of you guys release your hybrid snakes in the wild? None I bet.

Most hybrids would not be able to survive in the wild. An albino burm would be scoffed up by a predator in no time.

If you look at the lion and tiger cross, considered two different species but both are related. Those crosses would not survive in the wild despite there sometimes larger size as most are domesticated.

Humans are one species and are not considered hybrids. A hybrid would be if a human had a kid with an ape.

All the different coloured cornsnakes you guys own are all hybrids. I don't think hybrids are a bad thing, but they should be kept as pets only. The wildcats, lynxs and wild felines in general are in danger because of some jack *** letting out his domesticated cat. It becomes a feral cat and mates with the wild stock, hybrid produced. The Coyote still exists, with few pure bloods. That again is human intervening.

As long as you keep your hybrid snakes and reptiles locked up. And don't send them to their parents homeland and let loose. Then hybrids are cool!

[Colonel SB]

I think there is a big differenve between messing around with what is already there only hidden like albanism. Hybrids are a problem in the hobby because at some point in the cycle either through ignoance or miss-represention they will be passed off as pure animals. And no matter how many times you out cross that animal there is still a hybrid. So I'm 1000000% against hybrids.

[PetCrazy]

As herpers is it not our responsibility to investigate, study, and maintain our animals properly. To house the species under conditions as close as possible to their natural environment, and treat them with utmost respect?
If this is true (which I believe it is), one should try to maintain the purity of the line from which the animal came from and the species as is. Not cross it with something it wouldn’t naturally select itself if it could possibly come across it in the wild.
This is maintaining the species as is, and respecting it for what centuries of evolution and natural selection had brought it to in the wild.

One of the main problems with hybridization is that it's all just for CASH FLOW. A guy bought one snake, and some friend dumped another snake on him...not the same species at all. But HEY if he could get them to breed, gosh darn it, he just might be able to squeeze some cash out of these snakes, and perhaps even a ton of it if it's something unique! WOW.

In this case, we can clearly see this wasn't a true herper, not someone who really cares about the animal or is in the hobby for the fact that they are intrigued by reptiles. But merely because it's something "Cool", an impulse, and then...a possible source of cash.

"You have no idea how many times a day I get some ignorant idiot calling me about how to breed some animal they JUST purchased...wants to buy a boy and a girl to breed before they even know the first thing about animal care. This to me, is one of the first signs of a bad potential pet parent. And in these cases I can see why people are trying to ban exotic animals...though this happens with dogs and cats too...but who is going to ban Fluffy and Scruffy?...."

[enso]

As long as they're sterile and can't produce offspring go for it. Other than that they are just polluting the gene pool of said species. I'm not for it. Off with their heads!

[Andy_G]

I plan on producing jungle corns two times in the future, so I can get a normal, and then breed back a het albino to get an albino. I will be selling the babies but I will be telling people what they are buying. I don't really see much of a problem with it. Slander me if you want folks! :)

[SerpentLust]

Ok time for my diplomatic opinion ;)

I'm moreso on the against side, however, there is just one thing that makes me slightly ok with hybridization.

My only thing that makes my slightly ok with it is that we have the chance to take two beautiful things and make a new beautiful creature. We, as humans, I feel we enjoy playing God so to speak. We like controlling everything and this is just one more way to get satisfaction...

However, I'm still mostly against because of all of the facts that everyone has brought up. I liked Grant's comment the best about "Those ppl respect snakes as a commodity and not as a animal of nature....IMO" However, i feel that all that needed to be said has been said for the case against hybrids, so I won't get into it :)

Jenn

[MouseKilla]

When we're talking about crossing a blood and a BP or a JCP and GTP are we really talking about something that is scientifically possible? If you can produce these crosses are the offspring fertile? I know if you manage to cross animals that are too different genetically, like a horse and a donkey, the offspring are sterile and therefore cannot damage the gene pool of either animal. It's almost like a genetic safety feature. Seems the real God has a handle on this stuff no matter how much we like to flatter ourselves.

Oh and someone brought up the Sphinx. Just thought I would clarify that they are a naturally occuring mutation (like albinism) not a man made freak. They are ugly as hell though and I think we should eradicate them. With shovels. LOL!

[gauts28]

When I first saw this thread, I ad mix feelings but I started thinking. Jeff (administrator) made a few really good points. How many of us have dogs, cats or whatever other pets that have been mix in one time or another? Some people are going to say, “Well it’s not the same” or is it? To give an example, I own 2 teams of sled dogs (20dogs total) and 15 of them are what we call “Alaskan huskies” which is not even a recognized breed. A Alaskan is a mix of deferent dogs breeds put together to give one super dog that will run faster and longer than the regular Siberian husky. We all have reason why we cross breed, but if the animal is to be kept in captivity, why not cross breed them? What so different with snakes that we can’t Hybrid them? There are hybrids even in the wild. I love fishing, more then all fishing for pikes. But there are pikes x muskies in the wild we call that tiger muskies. So if Mother Nature allows it in the wild why not in captivity? That’s one example in probably millions and I know that it’s rare in the wild but it still happens.

But (there is always a but) even if I don’t condemn hybrid snakes I would not by one. Because I don’t want it to become like dogs or cats that even if they say “pure breed” if you don’t have papers, it’s probably not. Maybe there should be an organization like the AKC or CCC for the snake that would give a proof of the purity of the snake. Then cross breeding would be as bad because will know what’s mixed and what’s not.

[lordkovacs]

I will never buy another hybrid again. I have 2 corns, but at the time I didn't understand genetics. I wouldn't buy another again...

[chas*e]

Hybridization is ethically wrong....nothing should be done in Captivity that couldn't/wouldn't be done in the wild....you might as well be into Genetic Engineering of reptiles(corn x burm) ..why not...how far do you want to take it.. there must be some sort of boundry.....

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Ok, I wasn't going to post to this thread because it's been done several times already and whats been said was said. However, I must put in a word or two.. I didn't see this said, so I will, forgive me if it's already been reveiwed..

There are many visible differences between the breeds of domesticated dogs however, they are all in one species, Canis familiaris. This is the main reason why we call Dog types "breeds" and not species, so saying you have crossed a Rot and a Shepard isn't a valid argument, as for they are the same species.. Pure bred dogs have so many problems because they are insanely inbred and in fact are nothing but a mixture of multiple "Projects", and when they find a type they want they inbreed the animals and so forth and so on which happens to be another argument..
Xain

[Gary D.]

Ok, I don't have a lot to add, just my views. Firstly I am against hybridization of species or even subspecies. Locale is a touchy area, because you are often dealing with the same subspecies, althought often they should be reclassified (ie.Hogg isle. boa), and then there's localles which are arguable the same (guyana, and surinamme B.c.c.) but Burm/retic, B.c.i./B.c.c. jungle corns, etc. I am against.

Now as Gauts pointed out, wouldn't it be nice if there were a national database for breeders to track genetic lineage of animals(pure and morph) ? Well there are, they're the Canadian Boid Database and the American Boa Registery. But guess what, reptile keepers are a lot of talk and that's about it. Myself and others have heard the people saying "this would be great if..." and we have invested a lot of our time on making them happen, but when it comes down to it, the participation numbers are a joke. I will keep opperating the CDN boid database (out of stubbornness), but I think the american registery has folded due to lack of support.

If you really are concerned about the future of the hobby, about keeping bloodlines sorted, or morph breeders tracking het traits, then step up. It's also free, so you have no excuses. Check out the info and registeration forms at the link in my signature.

GD

[marisa]

Personally I can't decide what side I am on. I am not sure if I am against it, or if not being against it will be part of a huge mistake people might be making in the hobby by making hybrids. Not sure.

I think personally for me I will continue reading all these great debates, and then one day maybe I will just feel the way I feel is right.

Marisa

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Ok, I just reread everything and it's turned out that the stuff I said was pretty much covered already by the guy who gave the cat analogy, so can someone delete my posts?
Thanks,

MouseKilla, Balls and Bloods have been produced but I dont think any are of age to reproduce.
Xain

[viridix]

I don't mind hybrids. In fact, some of the most beautiful snakes are hybrids. For example: a cross between Crotalus molossus and Crotalus atrox. A cross between a snake and a goat is one thing, but as long as the animals involved are related, there shouldn't be any problems. I wouldn't mind trying to cross a ball python with a blood python myself. I love the colors of a blood python but they get too big. If I could have the colors of a blood python on a pattern of a ball python, with the docile attitude and short length of a ball python, damn, that would be one hell of a snake!

[Piers]

how would you feel if you paid big bucks for a Dimond python only to find out down the road that it was a mutt?
The problem with hybrids people get sloppy, or the people they sell to don't understand what you've sold them and then breed them to normals or sell them as normals
just look to the Indian python for your lession
Piers

[Aztec Fred]

Hi Guus,

I havent posted here in so long I cant remeber when.

Heres how I feel about hybrids.


Hybrids are popular.....Brittany Spears is popular.......
George W. Bush is popular.......Bell bottem pants are popular..


Proof that popular things arent ALWAYS good things.

Bottem line, people tend to follow *trends* , certainly I have been suspect of this, whatever *NEW* snake morph is out there, or whatever snake is popular AT THE MOMENT, people tend to jump on the bandwagon. I have done so and regretted it. Not to say that people cant keep something they like, even if it is popular, but when your whoel collection is focused on whats hot NOW...your either a breeder trying to capitilize on the market, or a person that wants to keep up with the Joneses. I understand the first one, but dont understand the second.

Hybrids are popular...therefore, I tend to avoid them like the plaque. I disdain things that are overly popular, mainstream music, clothes and especially politically. so, I CHOOSE, for the most part, not to keep anything in my collection that is a hybrid. I DO LIKE some of the morhs that are produced(Color) but dont necessarily keep them if they are indeed crosses.


There are plenty of people out there breeding and selling hybrids, they dont need me todo it to, so I dont, I am not a purist in the sense, but things that are overly popular give me a headache.

Sincerely,


Fred Albury
Aztec Reptiles

[crazyboy]

i am ok with it as long as the snakes are found in the same habitat but if you take one snake from the south and one from way up north im a gainst that

[Steele]

not a fan of hybreds but a anaconda that looked like a brb would be cool to see

[Siretsap]

Well I don't think bush being popular is a good thing :-p

I am against hybrids. Why try to breed different localities if you know chances are slight to none they would actually do it in the wild.

A cross betwen a jungle and a diamond is beautiful but am still against it. Once you start playing with the genes, it can never be undone.

[Aztec Fred]

Another thing that disturbs me is that when people actually DO sell hybrids, they do so saying that they HONESTLY represented them. Which may well be true, but DOES NOT insure that future breeders that buy them will CONTINUE to HONESTLY represent them. I find that people will represent them as whatever is most MARKETABLE at that moment, i.e. if they look more like diamonds, they will sell them as diamonds, if they look bizarre and pretty, they may represent them as crosses, because crosses are selling well at that time,. In short, once the initial pair leaves the breeders hands.....all bets are off.

Which is why you see so many diamonds that are really crosses nowadays, why you see so many Colombian boas that have argentine or hogg island boa(Isla de los cochinos) bloods in them. ONCE they leave the original breeder, theres no telling what those snakes will be bred with, or if they will be represented honestly, or even KNOWINGLY


Its kind of like buying hets, unless you KNOW the seller personally, or their reputation WITH THAT PARTICULAR SNAKE preceeds them, then you are gambling, with odds against you


Just my opinion,


Fred Albury
AZTEC REPTILES

[wyz]

Hybrids just don't have a right to exist.

Nature didn't created them, there is a reason, they aren't needed so let's not play GOD.

WYZ

[Siretsap]

Originally posted by wyz
Hybrids just don't have a right to exist.

Nature didn't created them, there is a reason, they aren't needed so let's not play GOD.

WYZ

Actually there is a hybrid Iguana on the Golapagos islands. The fist hybrid reptile from our time. Part marin and part terrestrial.

But am still against hybrids taht we purpously do.

[Andy_G]

CornxCal Kings and JCPxDiamonds are found in the wild once in a while wyz, so wouldn't that be saying that they are a part of nature because they sometimes do naturally occur? I also believe that every hybrid does have a right to live.

[Aztec Fred]

Very True statement,

But as time goes on, less and less Diamonds and JCP's will be found in the wild, with the only potentially remaining populations being captive ones. If the captive ones are hopelessly crossed and hybridized, then what you have is an extinction of a particluar type of snake. So, hybridization in the wild doesnrt support doing it in captivity, esp with the encroachent of mankind ino their habitats

Fred
Aztec Reptiles

[wyz]

Andy.. let's not make this a case by case thread...

Sure odd things can be found in nature, doesn't mean it's natural..

These crosses are accident, they aren't there for a purpose.

BUT ! If they are, to serve a purpose (i.e. hybrid iguana) what so ever well that's another story. Maybe she crossed so that a specie can survive on this island because of some disturbance in their habitat.
But we can't really speculate nor discuss about this at this time.. maybe in a couple of million years. :)

[viridix]

Survival of the fittest.

[TheRedDragon]

Personally, I'm on the fence about hybrids. I do believe that we shouldn't mess with nature that way, but, I also feel that some really neat specimens are produced from cross breeding, and I honestly think some of them are neat enough that I'd buy one.

[gauts28]

Sure odd things can be found in nature, doesn't mean it's natural.. These crosses are accident, they aren't there for a purpose

Who are you to say that? If it’s found in nature without any human interventions there for it is NATURAL. You should know that every living thing on earth it a hybrid of some sort and it all started by accident. Sure there was no human intervention in the beginning, but now it’s one other thing. Nobody is talking about crossing a pig and a snake. If it were so against nature, nature wouldn’t allow it. We are not talking about hybrids made in labs, where they slice genes together to make transgenic snake. It’s like mixing different races of dogs, is that a mistake? How do you think we evolved to be what we are? It took a lot of crosses.

What different purposes a ball python and a corn snake have? They are snakes they serve the same purpose. We are not talking about releasing the hybrids in the wild, we choose to keep reptiles in captivity, and in a way we changed their purpose.

Even if people are against hybrids, it doesn’t change the fact that hybrids have always been there and will always be there no matter what we might think. Is it a good thing that we help Mother Nature? I don’t know (we’ll talk about that in a100 years), but one thing is sure, even without our help nature will always find a way, these years more then ever.

[Yve]

nope....I don't agree with hybridization.......some greedy quacks personal science project....who cares that the outcome may be bad....its sooo much fun....whiipppieee!!...more money......whatever!...there have been many good strong points expressed against it but none that were for it seemed reasonable enough for me to consider..IMHO. Funny thing....my rank....really annoys me!!!!gggrrrrrrrrr.....I can't post fast enough to get to the next one!lol

[Ritchie]

I am a cross.
And so are most of you.

I am a cross between a Filipino, a Spanish and a German.

Why are they crosses? Because man said they are crosses?
Man said they were different subspecies. Whether you cross them or not......you are already playing God

People say do not play God and cross things.
Well we are playing God already by deciding what species should not be crossed with what.

People say it is unatural to cross things...............that is true.
Then again so is keeping your pure locality boas in a 2x4 cage.

Jungle x Diamond is bad bad bad. So let us put a fence in between their homes so they do not mix with each other.

surinam boa x guyana boa is bad bad bad.
So someone build a fence....HURRY

Sure odd things can be found in nature, doesn't mean it's natural.. YUP....do not play god by crossing things.
But please do play god when you decide what is natural and what is not.

These crosses are accident, they aren't there for a purpose. Jungle x Diamond does not have a purpose. It does not eat rodents like a pure jungle or a pure diamond would.
Surinam boa x Guyana boa does not have a purpose. So kill them all.


The way I see it. Snakes of the same species can be mixed.
They are the same species. It was man who decided they were different.
A person from Canada is still the same species as the person from France and Spain etc etc etc.
If man decides to separate the species into subspecies depending on looks........Then man should also separate hmself into subspecies.

I am Homo sapien phillipinnese x with homo sapien germanese x with homo sapien spanishese

[Lisa]

Dogs may all be one species but who's to say they aren't sub species amongst each other, which gives them their distinct look. like take a look at all rat snakes. they're all elaphe. thus they're all the same species, just different sub species which man has designated. i don't see the difference between crossing dogs or cats and crossing snakes or other reptiles.

Hybrids do occur in nature (such as ratsnakes and kings crossing), and locality species do not pay attention to borders so who knows if it's what people say it is.

[mk-ultra]

who here actually breeds for reintroduction in the wild ?

Everyone is in for their own pleasure or to make money . the only thing that will destroy a species for good is keeping them all in captivity . By doing that we all encourage the destruction of all the species since more and more animals are being taken in the wild because all of us are advertising that reptiles are fun to keep as pets .

From our point its really wrong to kill tigers for medicinal products because there are just a few left . So are we waiting until there is only a hundred gtp left in the nature to start thinking it might be time to illegalize them in captivity so mr whoknowswho stops picking them up in nature because there are no more buyers . We all bring business to these people and are encouraging them to continu their work and god knows how much specimens dont survive the trip here . Keep in mind that probably 5 or 10 or more have died so you can have your PURE surinam and how much of these captive bred giant pythons makes it to adulthood ??? s much are sold but just a few have them big and fat what happens to the rest of them ???

So please cut the bullsh*t about trying to save a species by not hybridizing them when you are the first inline to help the destruction of a species by keeping it as pets and advertising them as "cool" pets and dont start saying but mine comes from captive born parents bla bla bla in the beginning they were taken in the natures and they are still taken there . We all keep them we all participate . Welcome to the human race . You wanna save them then instead of selling your babies have no contact at all with them and as soon as they are born put em in a box and ship it where its from so someone can put em back where they belong otherwise dont say you are trying to save them because you are not .

I know probably a lot will hate me for this post at at least im not hiding.

and btw a lots of hybrids looks really cool

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

but who's to say they aren't sub species amongst each other

Good point. Excludig the facts that Domesticated dogs are techinically nothing but muts, like say M. f. testaceaus x M. f. flagellum were to be bred together you get a mut. Not a species. You get a new name like a Chain-link cornsnake, but it doesnt have a ssp. name all to its self. This is the reason domesticated dogs and cats are like they are with Breeds and not species or ssp. Domesticated dogs and cats were man made, and scientifically speaking man cannot make a new species, or ssp. We can make youre everyday freak, sure but no ssp. I have more to say but it really is my bed time and I will wait to add more to this. Its pretty much self explainatory after this though.. Good day
Xain