View Full Version : Rat kills all of her pups?
One of my rats had her first litter today, of 6 or 7 pups. But she killed all of them! Why would she do this?
Zoe
T.O-SK8TER
08-29-03, 01:43 AM
Wow, I ve never heard of a mother killing her offspring, only heard of males doing this. Sorry to hear!
crucified
08-29-03, 01:45 AM
was it her first litter?
when my ex's mouse had her first litter she killed them all off.. the other ones were fine..
and same with a friends rat.. she killed (the rat) off her first litter.. the other ones turned out dandy..
also if you startle them right after birth that might cause a problem.. i think.. i really dont know... just a guess?
:o
Yikes. Well, two of mine just had their first litters and each had over a dozen babies btw....and I didn't see any signs of them eating the babies :o even the male.
All three were left together and they shared nursing (not the male haha).
Is your cage big enough? Just a thought.
Bj
eating the babies
They weren't eaten, but killed and left in a pile.
And yup, its her first litter.
The cages are pretty big - all the other rats were fine.
So I guess its because its her first litter? One of the babies wasnt quite dead - she bit it in the back but didn't kill it. I put with another female and her litter, thought it might feel better the few more minutes it was alive. Poor pup.
Zoe
snakemann87
08-29-03, 02:16 AM
Yeah I read about that when i looked into breeding my mice. Sorry to hear that Zoe I hope it doesnt happen again. If so would removing the babies and placing them with another female work im curious??
geckoguy157
08-29-03, 02:44 AM
where you handling the babys cause the mother can be protective and if they smeel the scent of your hands on the babys she will think they are intreuders on the nest and kill them thats what ive been told atleast
Originally posted by geckoguy157
where you handling the babys cause the mother can be protective and if they smeel the scent of your hands on the babys she will think they are intreuders on the nest and kill them thats what ive been told atleast
Nope, I didn't touch her babies while they were alive.
Zoe
Sometimes if the litter is weak a female will eat them. I recently had a female eat her litter this week, it happens a few times yearly with me I would say, not often at all, but I can never be sure of the reason as I do not see the babies before they are eaten. No new member we added as well as they had ample food and water. Perhaps another member was harassing her? It's not normal for female rats to eat their first litters as it is for mice. If she makes habit of it its best to do her in :eek: Either she's jsut a horrible mom or she is throwing sick babies.
Originally posted by geckoguy157
where you handling the babys cause the mother can be protective and if they smeel the scent of your hands on the babys she will think they are intreuders on the nest and kill them thats what ive been told atleast
That's an old wives tale ;)
I'm dealing with the exact same thing with my youngest female. She gives birth to a nice litter 12+ but so far maybe 2 have survived out of each at most.
From what I see, it looks like inexperience. When they are born, they are all alive and kicking and then over the next 2-3 days, they start dropping like flies. Some don't seem to have ever gotten a chance to suckle as they look very dehydrated. Other suffer wounds that seem to happen because the mom isn't very careful with her babies. I have fuzzies with scars all over them! And they are bite marks but look like gashes from her sharp nails. Funny cause the other moms have nails as sharp and I have yet to see a booboo on any of their babies.
I'm hoping that she will get better in time!
Pixie
Linds is absolutly correct. the females will eat sick babies
occasionally i will find a new litter of babies and some will be separated from the rest of the litter. If i leave these babies, they will disappear before the next day.
also it is a myth that females will eat babies that are touched by humans. I regularly pick up newborns and never had a problem. I have even had children in to see the rats and let them handle the new born rats and this also did not effect the litter one bit. I have taken newborns from one mother and given them to another mother to raise in situations where one female had 18-20 babies in one litter. (growth is much faster with smaller litters )I also do this if pinkies are not needed.
Jason
Invictus
08-29-03, 06:00 PM
In almost all rodents, the mother also knows if she is unable to wean the pups, in other words, if she does not lactate, and she can't feed the babies, she will kill them. Maybe just another possibility to think about.
reverendsterlin
08-29-03, 06:23 PM
first birth's have cannablism as a some what common occurance not often worried about. generally if it continues in the second birth it is considered habitual and those mothers are fed off
Hamster of Borg
08-29-03, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by Invictus
In almost all rodents, the mother also knows if she is unable to wean the pups, in other words, if she does not lactate, and she can't feed the babies, she will kill them. Maybe just another possibility to think about.
Its not just that - stress, inadequate caging, too many rats in a cage, inappropriate substrate... any number of reasons why she would kill the babies. Raising babies takes a lot out of the mother, if her environment and health aren't perfect she has to look out for herself first. The trampled/injured baby rats seems to me like too small of a cage and not enough substrate to make an adequate nest.
Ham
It is uncommon for a mother RAT to kill her babies, mice I've seen many times, which is why I stopped breeding mice. Too much stress. Bottom line, your female may have been a little too young to know what to do. I would give her another chance. However, give her some time off between the end of weaning, and introduction to another male. If she gets preggers too soon, without having the time to put on a little weight, it may happen again. If it does happen again, feed her off. Not worth the trouble in my opinion, she's the exception to the rule when it comes to rats.
The trampled/injured baby rats seems to me like too small of a cage and not enough substrate to make an adequate nest. The babies werent' trampled or injured, they had bites through their backs and necks and legs ripped off with guts coming out. I've checked around, the size is fine and only 1.1 rats live in it (its a giant litter box thing), and they have tons of subtrate.
Zoe
reptilesalonica
08-31-03, 12:54 AM
...*and i was thinking start breeding rats to avoid such problems...* :rolleyes:
~Greg~
If the mother rat is too weak to nurse she will kill them off. what are you feeding her?
They eat a mix of dog food, cheerios and other cereals, peas and beans, some nuts, and rodent mix.
Zoe
reptilesalonica
08-31-03, 09:23 PM
dog food is for dogs. Am i wrong or rodents must not eat so rich food?
~Greg~
what kind of dog food? otherwise the diet looks good. we had problems when we put our rats on mainstay. they weren't as plump, had smaller litters, were dirtier and as well our mice did terrible on the same food (they went canibalistic).
Lisa, it's the brand Linds suggested, I don't remember what it is. It came in a big bag, I think it was red?
Zoe
Originally posted by reptilesalonica
dog food is for dogs. Am i wrong or rodents must not eat so rich food?
~Greg~
here some dog food has NO meat in it. there is a post where i compared the ingreadients of dog food and mazuri rat chow (#6 i think) they were almost identical. Also rats and dogs are omnivores and eat just about anything just like bears and humans.
We give our rats Super C dog food. it's about $11 canadian for a 16kg bag. that's less then $1CAD/kg. feeds about 80 rats and a couple handfuls of mice for 2 weeks or so. if you look at http://rats.lexxdog.ca you can see how big our rats are. one of our biggest is about 720g.
reptilesalonica
08-31-03, 09:49 PM
says The page cannot be found
Dogs are not omnivorous, they are carnivorous. Dogs don't eat fruits or veggies. Mostly meat. They are hunters. Rodents just eat whatever you offer to them, that not means that we must offer them meat. I don't know about those dog cans though...
~Greg~
http://rats.lexxdog.com is the proper URL.
Dogs in the wild eat whole animals, greg, which means they also benefit from the vegetation that their prey (dear, rabbits, whatever) feed on (much different than eating a slab of meat). Besides, fruits and vegetables offers obviously beneficial nutrients and vitamins that aren't necessarily found in meat. Why deprive them of that, because they are carnivores?
No, you don't have to offer a rat meat, but once again, meat has many things (protein and fat, for example) that isn't necessarily found in all fruits and vegetables, so why deprave rats of that?
Same as with leopard geckos... they don't eat from dishes of calcium or eat dusted bugs, but if calcium and vit powders can offer much needed supplements, why feed them bugs alone?
Zoe
paul_le_snake
08-31-03, 10:17 PM
whatever ppl think rats should be fed or not. i have seen many females kill their pups. the only thing i have noted is that it only happens in the summer when room and cage temps can get too hot. some females i work with have litters of 15-20. some produce hairless. some dont produce any. the only thing i feed mine is a lab quality chow, just for rodents. it has everything in it that the rats need.
cheers
paul
reptilesalonica
09-01-03, 12:21 AM
Dear Zoe,
Dogs in the wild eat whole animals as you said, eat meat.
Veggies or fruits are not beneficial when they are not eaten fresh AND with the peel (for the fruits). All vitamins and minerals are in the peel. Throwing the peel we throw all the vitamins away. With that logic, cows don't have to eat grass, they can eat meat...
Btw, giving meat to rodents their poops smell realy bad.
~Greg~
I said they eat whole animals, which is far different than eating a steak. They are eating, in essence, half digested plant matter.
So you're saying a piece of dried has aboslutely NO nutritional value whatso ever? And what rice, which is great for dogs, along with eggs and other vegetables.
With that logic, cows don't have to eat grass, they can eat meat... I don't see how you came up with that? Wolves are made to eat meat just as they are made to eat the innards of their prey (half digested vegetable matter). If they ate muscle matter only, don't you think they'd be lacking?
I'm sure vegetarian human feces don't smell as strongly, but that doesn't mean its as healthy as eating meat (in proportion, of course).
Zoe
reptilesalonica
09-01-03, 02:03 AM
I said they eat whole animals, which is far different than eating a steak. They are eating, in essence, half digested plant matter.
Half diggested plant matter as you say, is NOT plant or veggie.
As i said B4 veggies & fruits are beneficial ONLY when they are eaten fresh.
'
And what rice, which is great for dogs, along with eggs and other vegetables.
Now you are telling me that eggs are veggies...!...!
rice is good for them but conducted with meat. Dogs cannot live healthy by eating only rice, whereas, eating only meat they can live healthy.
If they ate muscle matter only, don't you think they'd be lacking?
NO, they don't dear zoe...cause they are MADE to eat basicaly MEAT....
'
I'm sure vegetarian human feces don't smell as strongly, but that doesn't mean its as healthy as eating meat (in proportion, of course).
Ok...please poop and leave it in your room...
If the next hour don't that smell drop you unconsious, then don't reply to this message...
Because you-me-they-all, use the flusher it doesn't mean that ours don't smell bad...they hell a LOT smell bad!
~Greg~
Half diggested plant matter as you say, is NOT plant or veggie. Well, it isn't meat, either. It is still the fiber of the grass or whatever the animal ate, which IS plant matter. It certainly isn't meat or rock or wood.
Now you are telling me that eggs are veggies...!...! No I didn't. I mean OTHER vegetables, as in other than RICE. Bad wording, perhaps, but why point out something so obvious?
NO, they don't dear zoe...cause they are MADE to eat basicaly MEAT.... Greg please don't call me dear. So a wolf or dog would survive without calcium?
Ok...please poop and leave it in your room...
If the next hour don't that smell drop you unconsious, then don't reply to this message...
Because you-me-they-all, use the flusher it doesn't mean that ours don't smell bad...they hell a LOT smell bad! I'm not sure I understand the relevance? I didn't say vegetarian feces smelled good, but that I doubt they smell as bad as of those who eat a lot of meat?
rice is good for them but conducted with meat. Dogs cannot live healthy by eating only rice What do you mean by conducted with meat? Obviously, Greg, dogs aren't going to survive eating apples and rice. But you are saying that they pull NO benifit, WHATSOEVER by eating anything other than muscle meat.
Zoe
Tim and Julie B
09-01-03, 02:35 AM
Hmm, then why do our dogs like to pick apples for themselves? Why do dogs eat grass all of the time, if not for the roughage? Dogs do eat veggies and fruits, even in the wild. It is necessary for them, aiding in proper digestion. Rodents need some form of roughage also, in order to digest their meals. I've seen plenty of rats eat corn, peas and beans even when they have other food sources available. There is no problem in adding dog food to their diets either as long as you can read and compare the food value to most commercial rodent foods.
Julie B
lol julie! My cat is weird too, she eats pees, brocolli, pasta, corn, etc etc etc. It's really funny to hold her like a baby and feed her pees!
Zoe
T.O-SK8TER
09-01-03, 03:06 AM
Hey Greg, my dog s eats brocalie, carrots, cheese, celary, garlic, eggs, and chicken all together, for every meal. Why do you say dear so much it s realy rude, show some respect!
If the dog food in question is so close to being the same as mazuri 6f, then why does it turn the mice cannibalistic??? Just a thought
Jason
sometimes if rats parents get scared they freak out and kill thier young. that is why snakes and humans are the smartest and that is also why snakes eat rats and mice. one of the only rodents that i like is chinchillas. i have a 8 month old male he is so funny!
I don't think that mice are turned cannibalistic through food, I believe it is their nature to eat their own sometimes?
I could be wrong!
Zoe
I really dont know either Zoe lol. I was Just going buy what others have said in this thread and other threads in the past.
Jason
Watched a documentary on mice, one of the things that I remembered about that show for some reason:rolleyes:, is that mice when under heavy stress, in the show’s case a cat constantly hanging around the den, will kill & consume the young and them flee the danger. Some weird way of protecting the young or the species, eh?
Originally posted by T.O-SK8TER
Hey Greg, my dog s eats brocalie, carrots, cheese, celary, garlic, eggs, and chicken all together, for every meal. Why do you say dear so much it s realy rude, show some respect!
T.O just to point out in your part of the world it may be rude but in his part this may not be the case, Zoe I think you handled that very well “Kudos to you” ;)
Bruce
T.O-SK8TER
09-06-03, 02:52 AM
I was just simply pointing out that he was talking down to her, Zoe is a very intellegent person and does not deserve that kind of recognition.
T.O,
I did not mean to be rude or insulting to you, I agree 100% about Zoe, I was just pointing out what I see as one of the big problems we are bound to run into with the net. We use words and phrases that we see as perfectly acceptable that in other areas but are considered rude and unacceptable in other area of the world and vice versa, especially if English is not the first language of either party. If we look at these wordings from only our perceptive it is very easy to become upset or insulted. I know quite a few people who use the word dear a lot, and while from some it can be very annoying, it is very seldom meant as rude. The problem I believe is called semantics. I am a Christian and this is one of the biggest problems I see internally within the church, and in most other institutions for that matter, someone says something meaning one thing and other individuals hear the words but interpret them totally differently. That or everybody has a different understanding of the meaning of a word, no matter how slight, than those around them. This one is the big one with in the church itself.
Anyhow I am rambling and getting off topic, please accept my apologies if I have insulted you that was not my intent at all.
Thanks,
Bruce
reptilesalonica
09-06-03, 09:26 PM
Batdad do you know the meaning of the word "Babel" buddy?
Well, i am doing my best to break down that wall, while "others" doing their best to rebuild that wall...different worlds, different cultures, different perception...
Some say that is rude to call someone "loveable" and they don't see their rude self, not respecting the fact that somehow i am a guest. Here in my country we respect and welcome our guests.
But as i said...different worlds...different cultures...
~Greg~
AymKing
09-06-03, 09:44 PM
Sorry to hear about your rat babies Zoe, I feed mine Mazuri sp?? I feel it's the best. I've had rats kill babies before as well, I'd give her one more chance then if she did it again (if she were mine), she'll be invited for dinner at Snakeseat4freeatAyms LOL
oh unless it was said already I didn't read all 3 pages I always touch my rat pups to count them and rats don't kill their pups for that reason =o)
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