Ethical...

[Simon]

Due to the lack of time and space that I have right now I am thinking of selling some of my hatchlings without :

1) labelling the parents of the hatchling
2) feeding the hatchlings
3) no gurantees for the hatchlings

The only difference is that I'll be giving at least a 50% discount on all the animals that I will be selling.

What do you all think? Would this be a bit too unethical since I am selling out animals that haven' fed or anything at all and I wont even label it since I am too busy right now. I just got promoted as a MT in BMO and I have 2 other part time jobs. So time is really tight. So I just wanted to know if you think that what I am doing is wrong.....I feel kind of bad..but it's just taking a lot of time and I want to see and hear some opinions...

Thanks~

PS I am only deciding to do this...not doing it yet....

so please be light on the comments....

thanks!!

[Zoe]

Well, I think you should at least feed them. They will have a better chance for survival, and I think that's more important than a few days' advance in selling them.

Zoe

[marisa]

There are these types of babies being sold at almost every show in the states from what I have known, for cheaper at a LOT of breeders tables. So I don't really believe its wrong. As long as things are CLEAR and labelled as non-feeders, its a choice buyers can make. If they don't sell well of course you will care for them. If someone wants to buy them, then why stop them?

I actually planned on taking my sweet time selling my babies, and just enjoying them but now our vacation has been moved to way sooner than I thought. I don't want to leave my pet sitter/roomates with tiny babies to care for, and they don't want me too either LOL..... and the same questions are running through my mind, about trying to sell them fast, is it right, etc, etc. But hey in the end as long as you are willing to keep any that don't sell then I think its alright.

Marisa

[CornBall]

I agree with Zoe, they should be atleast fed so they stay healthy. So it's a 50% cut, I would rather pay double to know that I am getting a good healthy snake than one you have know idea what it will eat let alone if it will at all. Sure you don't have to label who the parents or the sex of it, etc, if you don't want but then you should come down in price as you are selling snakes you don't know are what.
Hey if you are strapped for time and don't have enough time for all the hatchlings, I'll definately come and pick some up and get a few out of your hairfor you, you know to free up some of your time, sound good? Send me a message if you would like me to.

[Invictus]

I personally wouldn't buy them. Corns aren't very expensive, so the 50% doesn't amount to much. I'll pay the extra 50% to get a snake that I know isn't going to die on me the week after I get it. As for it being unethical, well... I say to some degree, yes. Selling anything to someone and saying "It may work, it may not, but I'm maing zero guarantees" is a bad business practice no matter which way you slice it. Now, I've offered to take unestablished animals from breeders that I trust, but that's a little different - that's me, the customer, offering. Selling at 50% off with no guarantee may be too tempting to a novice who won't be able to establish them. If you can't afford time, maybe you should think about liquidating some of your breeding stock, or hiring help.

[lordkovacs]

i would at least feed a couple times. if you've gone to all that effort of breeding and incubating, etc... then why not feed a couple times at least? probably will ease their stress for their new owners too. good luck...
MIKE

[Matt]

simon, as long as you state to people that you havent fed them and they are basically being sold straight out of the egg, i dont see an issue at all.

i would just make sure you do not sell to anyone as their first snake, but only to people with at least a bit of experience.

hell...i would buy some of your more expensive morphs for 50% off....corns are relatively easy to start on food, so as long as you are honest about it, and the buyer knows what she/he is getting into, i see no issue...........as long as the buyer has snake experience, dont sell to kids as their first snake....but Im sure you can find seasoned snake owners that would love do just fine with them......and at a good price

[Colonel SB]

Same here I would jump at the chance & have in the past!

As long as you state that they are NOT feeding and the customer is fully aware of what their getting it's all good.

Well the only acception is if you sell that amber on me :p

[marisa]

I myself also would be more than willing to pick up a couple 50% off non-feeding morphs. Corns ARE easy easy easy to get eating so for most people it won't even be a problem.

Marisa

[Bryce Masuk]

as long as you tell the truth there is no problem Just because the crons are young doesnt mean they are going to just outright die you just need to be more careful so a just born corn wouldnt be the best choice for someone that has never had a snake or reptile before sell them to people who have some experiance and you wont have a problem

[sapphire_moon]

saying this from a "new to the snake biz" point of view.......if a breeder was selling at 50% discount I would think that it was because they had overstock. I wouldn't even think to ask for "papers" and such. In fact I didn't even know snakes had papers until I came to this web site! So they probably wouldn't be able to take care of it very well. I would only offer a deal like that to people that had atleast a little snake expierence (sp???)........

[Simon]

So most people thinks that it is alright to offer this 50% off deal to people IF AND ONLY IF I tell buyers that these hatchlings are right out of egg and are haven't been offered food yet.

Well I have been thinking about this too and I thought that it was alright too.

Since I am telling buyers that I am doing this and that the animals haven't been offered any food yet. So buyers already know that they are taking this risk, if they still take the animal then it's a risk that they should bare.

I didn't really have a overstock....just that I have some personal issues in Asia that I am facing right now and that I might have to leave Canada for around 10 years or more. So thinning out the heard is one way to solve my future problem (better than knowing that I really have to move and then later on I have to sell everything in a month or two's time...)

Secondly I just got promoted to a MT in BMO and I have two part time jobs....so that is why I wanted to get rid of them.

It is much better for the animal since if I don't have that much time to feed them (and I might miss them during feeding since I don't have too much time) then why not give other people who have more time a chance to get some cheap and very nice looking animals.

I think that I have decided to do this. I know some of you thinks that I shouldn't do anything like this but I think that there are more benefits than harm. So I will do this.

Thank you for all the replies and I will be posting my 50% off advertisement soon. (should be up in a few days)

Just to let some of you konw I will have the following for sale:

1) snow
2) anery
3) amel
4) normal
5) amel motley
6) hypo
7) crimson
8) miami
9) banded
10) reverse okeetee
11) flourscent orange
12) sunglow (some amel banded looking)
13) caramel (this is a maybe)
14) ghost
and more

Thanks for everyone that has responded to this thread!!!

[gonesnakee]

I read the first few posted here & just jumped in for my 2 cents worth. I will sell on occassion babies "fresh from the egg" with no guarantees of course. I will only do so to people who have had experience with snakes & most of them are as capable as I & if anything some of them have more time to spend with one or two problem feeders than I do with 40 or 50 (I breed Graybands & Mtn kings DOH LOL!). Life gets pretty crazy when ya go from 80 to hundreds not to mention the weekly mouse bill. If there are worthy herpers out there that want the experience of "establishing" baby snakes on their own, I recommend it. I first started with around 20 baby Corns "unestablished" & it gave me the experience I needed to deal with all the hatchlings I have now. Anyone that is considering breeding should take at least a dozen unestablished babies first & try their hand at it. That way they will hopefully get a chance to work with a problem feeder or 2 (or should I say hopefully not LOL) before they are establishing their own babies. I do however always know which babies are from which clutches etc. & will only sell unestablished babies to seasoned herpers. Mark I.
P.S. anyone out there interested in buying a bunch of unestablished graybands, both sexes from 3 different clutches available & 2 more clutches to hatch out soon.

[Jeff_Favelle]

What do you all think? Would this be a bit too unethical since I am selling out animals that haven' fed or anything at all and I wont even label it since I am too busy right now.

Ethical for the snakes, or ethical as in business practices??

Not sure about the former, but the latter is completely fine as long as you honestly represent your animals. For sure.

[BoidKeeper]

I'm with Jeff. As long as you inform the potential buyer of what they may be getting then as far as ethical business practices is concerned you're covered. However, I think that it is your moral responsibility to give the herps in your care the best possible care you can provide them. That does not mean vision cages or cleaned everyday but it should at least mean the basic standard of care is met. No matter how busy you are they should have fresh clean water at all times and an opertunaty to eat if they want to. They did not ask to live with you and they should not be treated as expendable. If you can sell them all tomrrow to someone then that's great but after they have all shed they should all be given a chance to eat on a regular basis until they are gone.
Trevor

[sapphire_moon]

ok now that I did the "New to the entire snake thing".....I personally would gladly take 2 or 3 of the little one's my self. But I wouldn't sell unestablished babies to the novice keeper....like myself......I have a little expierence with problem feeder snakes, but that was 1 Ball Python. Just be honest to people, and if possible give them a printout of a care sheet or something if they are new to snakes....But like I said, I would gladly take a few unestablished babies.....But right now money and space would be an issue. Good luck getting those babies to good homes...!!!!

[Invictus]

I should amend what I said in my post. I think it's unethical if you would sell them unestablished to just anyone. As most people here have said, if you are honestly representing your animals, the buyer does have the choice to accept the buy or turn it down. As for me personally not buying them, I've been giving it some thought, and I think the reality is, I would if the breeder were reputable, and if the breeder could at least give me info about the parents, ie, make sure I get unrelated pairs if I buy more than one of the same morph. If, for example, 3 clutches were all just lumped together for the pickin', I wouldn't buy them.

[CornBall]

Ethical? hmmm I have given this post alot more thought and, yes if a breeder lists these snakes as right out of the egg, no guarantees, not feeding, parental stock are unknown, then they do cover themselves for anything. Of course these snakes should only be let purchased by people that know how to deal with non-feeders, only people who have personnaly dealt with this situation by themselves and know what to do. Getting a non-feeder that is right out of the egg is a little frustrating, especially if you are new to snkaes or have offered it many different prey items, even to seasoned veterans in this hobby. I am sure even Rich Z,and Kathy Love get frustrated when a hatchling just will not eat, no matter what.
I have thought that I would purchase hatchlings OUT OF THE EGG but that is only because I know what to expect and what not to expect through personnal experience dealing with hatchlings. I am with Invictus on the note that if I was to purchase out of egg snakes it would only be from a reputable breeder
I still think that if a breeder breeds their adults to get hatchlings, you are responsible for them and they should all be taken into the best care a breeder can give them. Sure they might come right out of the egg but still need water and a clean enclosure, and if you've dealt with hatchlings before you know how messy they can be. This takes time out of your day especially if a breeder is doing this on such a large scale, but a pinkie only takes a few minutes to thaw out and only has to be done once a week. So while you are cleaning and giving it fresh water throw a pinkie in, it's not to hard and isn't very time consuming. I find that before you're done cleaning the hatchlings enclosures the pinkies are thawed and just need to be tossed in to the enclosure. Sure this might take an extra hour to thaw and throw a pink into an enclosure, but only needs to be done once a week, I'm sure many people can find an hour a week. Leave the pink over night and check to make sure it was eaten when you wake up (does not take long to check a deli cup or hatchling size rubbermaid), if the pinks still there just toss it.
Also if a breeder is going to sell right out of the egg for less than what it is worth, why not feed it 3 pinks (about $1) then sell and make double the profit for one whole dollar and say about 4 extra hours in three weeks. So for $1 and 4 hours you make double on a 3 week basis, sounds good to me. That would mean you would be able to pay for more feeders and more snakes.
Of course this is a base on about 50 snakes at one point (nothing to your numbers Simon).
Now to throw a curve ball into this (sorry I must say this), What happens if you are not able to sell your hatchlings right out of the egg?? are you just not going to feed the snake at all?? Say you still have these out of eggers a month from when they hatched, they've never eaten and just happen to be non-feeders, they eventually die and you are the only one that could help save it. I'm sure anyone would want to kick themselves in the head for letting that happen. I'm pretty sure trying to move 500+ hatchlings won't happen in one week, I'm also pretty sure you will have hatchlings left over for yourself down th road.

I am not directing this at you Simon but to every breeder of snake, gecko, or whatever it may be around the globe.

So is it Ethical? Business wise, I would say it is as you are covering everything the buyer needs to know when purchasing.
But I still do not see it as being the right choice either, for the sake of the hatchling.

Simon though I have never dealt with you, I know many people who have and I have only heard good things. If you do do this out of egg deal and you possibly have something I am interested in, you can be sure I'd get in touch with you. BUT I would still want to know the parental stock of the hatchling (for my own records). If selling out of the egg means, you will not sex the snake or would you? would it be possible for the buyer to sex it themselves?
sorry for the long post, I hope this came out as I hoped it would (no bashing intended)
Just my 2 cents

[Simon]

CornBall,

Great comment. I totally understand your point of view and I do agree 100%.

One point that I have to make and state clearly is that I will continue and try to feed these hatchlings as much as possible. So once a hatchling eats I will take them off the non-feeding (not offered food) list and I will wait until they have eaten at least 3 meals before I sell them out.

This is what usually happens (or what normally happens)
I will sex the snake by both poping and probing to make sure the sex of the snake. I do this especially for females (males just poping is accurate but then sometimes some females have hemipenes too but without blood vessiles.)

Once I make sure the sex of the snake, I feed them at least 3 times before I sell them out. Usually I even feed them so that they eat 3 times in a row before I let them go. (Sometimes hatchlings just want to eat once and then stop eating for a few weeks. So I start all over with the feeding thing and make sure that they eat 3 meals in a row before letting them go)

Once they have at least 3 meals and that the sex is definately sure. I will post them out for sale. Once sold I will also have a 7 days healthy animal gurantee. If for any reason the snake is sick, kinked, buyer doesn't like it, or wrong sex I will make either 1) Full refund of the value of the animal 2) exchange for another animal that has the same value. If less than original value I will refund the money. If more than original value buyer has to pay the difference.

So once I get these hatchlings eating I will definately take them off my 50% off sale list. This list is only here for experienced herps only and that there are no gurantees, no refund, no information about parents.

This 50% off thing is only a chance for some experienced herpers to get some great herps with low price.

Even though I have offered these snakes at 50% off, the sex of the snakes have all been checked and double checked. Even though feeding doesn't take too much money and time from me and that feeding them and selling them that way makes the hatchling worth much more, I don't have too much time to handle and feed 6-700 animals (including adutls and yearlings) at a time. So feeding's time and expense is quite high for me.

But in my advertisement I will definately tell buyers that these haven't been offereed any food yet.

For the hatchling's sake I will try my best to take care of them. Once they are eating on their own I may still offer a discount but maybe only 25% off or something like that.

Thanks for all the comments again. I really liked your post Cornball. Thanks so much!

[silke]

it is widely known when hatchling snakes should eat
it is unethical to underfeed in order to save costs (ie - once every 3-4 weeks)
if the snake is sold within a short period of time after hatching that would be fine but the snake should be fed if kept for longer than a week after the first shed

[honduranfreekk]

Simon I would have 2 agrea with CornBall 100% and since you are being 100% strait up with people there is nothing wrong with what you are doing.
Just my 2 cents