How many leos do you have?

[J-Man]

I'm trying to get an idea of about how many leos most people have. I currently have 2 unsexed.... though I'm pretty sure they're 1.1.0.

Oh and also feel free to post pics!

[Samba]

Two at the moment... had three until Darwin died last month. Wish I had pics to post, I would love to show off my Girl!

[drewlowe]

1.6.4 leos i also had one pass away a few months back. But i'm sure that won't stop me getting more in the future.

[wyz]

2.6.32 hoping to get the last number down a bit :)

WYZ

[Repti]

I got 2

[bborysow]

8.12.30 (not counting eggs) Also looking to reduce that last number.

[Siretsap]

4.8.24 leopard geckos

[beth wallbank]

10.65.300+
there abouts anywho

[Pookie]

300 beth? Now that's crazy! What do you do with them all? :)

[beth wallbank]

would love to keep em all but hubby wont let me =(

[J-Man]

my gosh... that's insane. I'm guessing that the people with the higer numbers bred all of their's?

[Pixie]

I only have 0.3 right now. Always looking to add another! :D

Pixie

[Neo]

4 unsexed.. well one of em might be female.. 7.5 inches and no black pores or bulges

[Tim and Julie B]

16.39.81

Had more before, but the little guys sell pretty fast:D

Julie b.

[reptilesalonica]

I keep 1.2.2 and in a few days i will get 0.2.0 more(yellow-ghost morph).
Totaly they will be:
2 speckled
3 yellow-ghost
1 high yellow
1 normal

~Greg~

[Bartman]

i have only 1. But at the september show im getting a male and im gonna start breeding them and try to get into high number like beth :)
heres a pic of my female..Ringo
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1953picture_11.jpg

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1953picture_12.jpg
if anyone has a male for sale PM me :)

[reptilesalonica]

This leo is too fat! Reduce feeding.
~Greg~

[Neo]

he doesnt look too fat to me, looks pretty healthy unless all he's eating is wax worms or something

[JD@reptiles]

i have 1.3

[Sean_.E.]

I only have 1.0 patternless right now but I want to get one or two patterless females for him! ;)

Here is a pic!

http://ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/182anubis_dig1.bmp

[reptilesalonica]

he doesnt look too fat to me, looks pretty healthy unless all he's eating is wax worms or something
This is very strange way of thinking...

You need someone to tell you if that leo is eating waxworms or not?
All you can see is the animal.
Look at the front legs how heavy are!
Leo's front legs are very thin.
~Greg~

[Neo]

well if the gecko was getting it's fat only from wax worms i'd say it's poorly nutritioned, but if the leo's getting fat on a healthy diet it's perfectly fine.. the leo will know when to stop eating on its own, just my opinion.. also the owner plans on breeding this one.. sry lemme rephrase, she does look fat but it's fine in my opinion

[herpnewbie]

0.0.0 :) lol

I am getting one within the next month or so, though :) Just here to learn in advance.

Couldn't tell you if that Leo is too fat, but she's certainly cute!

[Neo]

very exciting!! i remember when i got mine.. i couldnt concentrate in school :-D!

[Clownfishie]

3.13.11 :) Including my 2 new ones on the way... hehe... and a bunch of eggs in the incubator ....

[Tim and Julie B]

So many leos, so little time!:D Cute leos everyone.

This leo is too fat! Reduce feeding.
That leo looks very healthy, not obese. Obesity in leos usually occurs when they are fed high fat foods such as pinkies and wax or butter worms. If kept on a diet of varied insects like crickets, mealies, silkworms, king worms then the risk of obesity is fairly low.
Julie B.

This is a very strange way of thinking. You need someone to tell you if that leo is eating waxworms or not? Leo's front legs are very thin
Why is is strange for someone to inquire about the diet?:confused: Perhaps leos legs are thin in the wild, but in captivity they should be stalkier. It's not enough to say an animal is fat because you have looked at the legs. Maybe a qualified vet could make that judgement at a glance, but not the average hobbiest.
Julie B.

[drewlowe]

I wouldn't say that gecko is fat. You should take a look at a few of mine. If you did you would say they were fat a$$es. LOL. When actually they are all very healthy. They barely ever get waxworms or pinkies (only before and during breeding). If it is a female and he plans on breeding her she needs that extra weight for breeding. Cause they lose a nice size after they lay thier eggs.

I used to have close to 20 more leos until i sold them all. Thank god i was running out of space to put them. lol I still have 4 and some more eggs incubating.

[Colonel SB]

Here is what I have

Loki - Male Super Hypo (adult)
Shadow - Female Super Hypo Pastel (adult)
Amanda - Female Hypo Tangerine (adult)
Angela - Female High Yellow (adult)
Whitey - Female Blizzard (baby)
Flake - Female Blizzard (baby)
Squinty - Female Tremper Albino (baby)
Tang - Male Super Hypo Tangerine (baby)

Thats it for now but soon more albinos then blizzards :)

[drewlowe]

yeah Colonel SB i'm still waiting to see pics of Loki. LOL

[Amiechann]

13 leos for the moment..

2... of my hatchlings left at the moment-normals
1...100% het baby girl
Puck-...Patternless male
Persephone-...Female normal
Psyche-...Female normal het albino
Blizzy-...Female Blizzar
Demona-...Female Albino
Petry-...Albino Male
Winkie-...Female, normal-my first leo.. where the addiction began!
Cupid-...het albino, Hypomelanistic
Weenie-...Hypo tang-Female from Masterpiece gecko
Weiner-...Striped tang male

going to get some more soon!

[Jazzey]

I only have two girls at the moment.
Jazzey

[Bartman]

Havnt been on this thread since my last post. My leopard is not even close to obese. I have never fed it pinkies (they dont interest her) and i also have never fed it waxworms. Her diet consists of mealworms(staple food),silks and sometimes crix. Dont like crix because my mom doesnt want them running around the house by mistake and that already happened. Her weekly diet is, in total, about 10 meal worms and 1 silk every week. Than every 2 weeks i give her about 6 crix instead of the silk. Plus she needs to put on some weight because in september im breeding her so i want her to think that since she is getting a lot of food its breeding time. I also dont think by a picture as blurry as mine :) that you could tell if she is overweight or not. I have seen leopards double the size of mine. I call obese when the leopard is dragging its stomac on the floor and doesnt move.

[LadyHawke]

I have 1.8 leopard geckos
1.5 of them are regular
0.1 is a blizzard
0.1 is a het blizzard
0.1 is a het albino
hoping to get more soon!!
oh and my regular leos laid me my first egg.....only one so far but i am so excited!!

[J-Man]

Yes bartman... Pink Floyd DOES rule

[peregrinefalcon]

I only have my one pretty female but I might get a male in the near future to breed em :D I have had quite a few before though.
Adam

A pic of Ying (http://groups.msn.com/theplatedlizardburrow/leopardgeckos.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=315)

[reptilesalonica]

I believe there's an obvious differense between the leo we are talking about and one female of mine (photo).
Keeping your herps with less food you are many steps closer to health. (Except pre-breeding time)
Much food means many problems...
'
I have seen leopards double the size of mine. I call obese when the leopard is dragging its stomac on the floor and doesnt move.
This is not obesity, this is...do you remember the dead fat guy from the film se7en??...http://www.esoterica.gr/forums/icon_smile_approve.gif
These are corpulent ones.
~Greg~

[reptilesalonica]

...forgot to attach the photo.

[Bartman]

for peregrinefalcon
will you please name your next leopard yang :D

Sorry reptilesalonica but i have never seen that movie. I like to keep my lizards nice and plump and if it, god for bid, ever occurs that one of my lizards has a problem i will take it to the vet..fix the problem, and shake your hand with apology and agree that you were right. But until that happens i will continue to feed my leopard exactly how was recomended to me by other herpers and continue to feed it on her present diet.

and for J-Man

YEAAAAAAA Guy :D

[Neo]

yes there is a difference, but i still believe that a fat leo is a healthy leo.. eh, to each's own

[Bartman]

well said neo. Ill feed my lizards how i like and you how you like. Dont mean to start a argument or fight..no hard feelings :D

[reptilesalonica]

I like to keep my lizards nice and plump and if it, god for bid, ever occurs that one of my lizards has a problem i will take it to the vet..fix the problem,
This answer tells me that the "guys" that teach you about keeping leopards, don't give a damn.
If you are waiting first to see the poor animal sick from fatty liver or other problems related with obesity, then you don't respect the animals you are keeping...
But the worse of all is that you don't accept any other oppinion!
'
'
...Poor animal...

~Greg~

[Neo]

in my way of thinking animals are meant to be fat. The purpose of fat is to store energy for later use. i know there's bad fat like saturated fat and all, but look at an elephant or a hippo or a camel.. they would be considered to be fat but it helps them out in the long run. humans actually dont like fat cause it's "unatractive" or w/e but then again just bout every human on this planet is dehydrated or malnutritioned. i dont mean to rag on u, i mean both bartman's and your geckos look just fine to me i just dont see a negative side to geckos being fat unless the only fat it's carrying isn't storing the proper nutrition in which this case it doesnt sound like it cause she has a good variety diet.

[Bartman]

ok whatever i dont give a ____ anymore. I am not waiting for it to die, OBVIOUSLY. Yes the people on THIS site dont give a crap for there animals because THERE the ones that told me what to do. I was reading a post on someone that fed there leopard maybe 60 meal worms a week and a couple silks and some crix but your exactly right me feeding her 10 and a silk is way to much. Whatever makes you feel better. As neo said to each its own..you wanna feed your leopards 2 mealworms a week go ahead but im gonna keep my girl at a nice size. Oh and about no hard feelings..lets just pretend that i never said that

[reptilesalonica]

My friend Neo,
You cannot compare a small gecko with an elephant, hippo or a camel.
All you have to do is to simply observe the animals you own (not you, generaly :) ). when you don't observe the animals you have and do only what you learn from here and there, then the result is what Bartman said.
He will wait until his leo get sick to take it to a vet...
'
In humans the extra weight is not only unattractive.
Too much food will lead to a series of health problems...
Many people that lived many years, ate very little in their lives.
Food is not satisfaction, is a must to stay alive...
Think of your self for example, think of one time that you ate too much...how heavy and sleepy you felt and then remember one time that you were hungry for some hour but you felt full of energy.
~Greg~

[Bartman]

nope i cant recall that. I am not waiting for it to get sick..did you not HEAR me the first time??? I took info from books, hobiests, and reading caresheets. What do you feed your leopard on a weekly bases? number wise...

[reptilesalonica]

I am not waiting for it to get sick..did you not HEAR me the first time???
she the previous quote...
I like to keep my lizards nice and plump and if it, god for bid, ever occurs that one of my lizards has a problem i will take it to the vet..fix the problem
If you don't understand what YOU are writing then...
'
I feed my juvs with crix every day and twice a week with silkworms.
My adults 2 pinkies each, twice a week (except breedin time)
~Greg~

[Neo]

mine refuse mealies and love the crix.. i'm buying some butters and wax but using sparingly

[reptilesalonica]

That's good Neo, mealies is not healthy food for every herp.
Be careful with the waxworms...sparingly as you've mentioned.
I would suggest you silkworms instead of waxworms.
To me silks are No.1 food! Then crix and then...Chaos :D
~Greg~

[Neo]

i'm only 14 so silkies are a lil tough to get in my budget i hear butters are second to silkies but contain high fat contents ironically

[Bartman]

i said im not waiting for it to get sick because it wont get sick. I have dont my research bud..dont think im some compulsive buyer who gets everything i see and just throw it in cages without caring for it.
So basically you just proved yourself wrong because i feed my leopard even less than that so your either lying or you have a terrible eye for pictures. My picture was so blurry (webcam) that you can barly see the pattern on its back. Ill throw on a better pic and maybe you'll see that its not obese.

Looks just like all the other gex ive seen on this site
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1953leopard_desk.jpg

[Reckless]

I have..............

3.4.12 of different morphs.

Great looking Leo Bartman, looks perfectly healthy to me.

[Alicewave]

Murtle-Hot Female Normal
Seneca-Male Normal
Aurora-Female, Abberant...Circleback (mother of the babies)
Luna-Juvie
Gimley-Juvie
Trois-Baby
Quatre-Baby

Chris has Diggy-Father of the babies.

[Alicewave]

Originally posted by reptilesalonica
.
If you are waiting first to see the poor animal sick from fatty liver or other problems related with obesity, then you don't
' respect the animals you are keeping...

'
...Poor animal...

~Greg~

Aren't you the one that feeds all your adults nothing but pinkies? I'd be concerned about the diseases you mentioned if I were you. :/ You also admit silks are the #1 food so why feed nothing but pinkies to the adults. I feel bad for the adults.

Of all the pics shown in this thread, I see no obese Leos here, all look quite healthy.

[drewlowe]

reptilesalonica Your contridicting your self so bad. Your telling bartman he is feeding way to much but he is actually doing a great job with feeding. Your telling him to worry about fatty liver when your feeding yours 2 pinkies a week. You need to check your own feeding first. Giving pinkies are ok as long as you do it sparinly. I only feed pinkies right before and during breeding. I only give them maybe one a month or if they are lucky they will get 2. Not one or 2 a week thats way to many pinkies!!! Just my 2 cents...

[Alicewave]

Add to that Drew he said 2 pinkies twice a week!
Reptilesalonica, your regimen with juvies is great. I don't know why you wouldn't want to provide your adults with the same nutrition? You're lucky to even have access to silkworms. I have been trying to get them for my crew and all the online places seem to be out.

[drewlowe]

ekkkk thats way worse thanks for pointing that out meg.

ok 4 pinkies a week way way way way need i say way bad.

[Colonel SB]

I have to agree with the two girls, leopard geckos are insectavorious, which means the majority of thier diet is made up of incests. If you didn't know but the fat in pinky is very different then that of incests. Thier stomachs have a hard time produceing the amino acids needed break down animal protien, and this leads to liver & kidney problems.

[lilyskip]

mah! alice, i want one of your geckos! stupid dorm room lack of space...in time... :D

[Alicewave]

Hehe well I can save you one but it will be an adult by the time you are ready for it. C'mon...I know you got an empty bookshelf that can fit a 10 gallon. Are you allowed to have reptiles at your college?

[reptilesalonica]

Aren't you the one that feeds all your adults nothing but pinkies? I'd be concerned about the diseases you mentioned if I were you. :/ You also admit silks are the #1 food so why feed nothing but pinkies to the adults. I feel bad for the adults.
Yes, exactly, that was my point.
My adults are thinner than that of Bartman's.
Giving 2 pinkies twice a week you say it's a lot of food??
Then why my adults are thin??? And always alert and active??
Not every time can afford ALL the best food for our animals (silkworms). I believe pinkies is a very good food once you feed it sparingly.
Yourself are feeding corectly?? I don't want to insauhlt you by asking a photo of you...or Drewlove's (full body)...
'
(smart pills getting cheaper...the result?...)
'
Your telling bartman he is feeding way to much but he is actually doing a great job with feeding.
This is your view...go and ask the poor leo...
'
Your telling him to worry about fatty liver when your feeding yours 2 pinkies a week. You need to check your own feeding first.
Thank you for the lesson but i breed leos 4 years and NONE of them ever died.
'
Add to that Drew he said 2 pinkies twice a week!
ekkkk thats way worse thanks for pointing that out meg.
Oh, what we have here? 2 are better than one????...!!!!! You need to have someone on your side to condemn easier?!
I'me happy to be a man, wear trousers and can speak for my own without making allies to condemn others...
'
You're lucky to even have access to silkworms. I have been trying to get them for my crew and all the online places seem to be out.
I breed my own. If you were living here in Greece i could send you some...but they are not cheap...so you cannot feed always with silkworms.
Do you know what "alternative" means?...
'
I have to agree with the two girls, leopard geckos are insectavorious, which means the majority of thier diet is made up of incests. If you didn't know but the fat in pinky is very different then that of incests. Thier stomachs have a hard time produceing the amino acids needed break down animal protien, and this leads to liver & kidney problems.
Colonel SB i couldn't agree with you more, that's why i don't power feed my adults with pinkies.
~Greg~

[Bartman]

Oh, what we have here? 2 are better than one????...!!!!! You need to have someone on your side to condemn easier?!
I'me happy to be a man, wear trousers and can speak for my own without making allies to condemn others...

i dont even know what the hell that was supposed to mean. Pinkies are loaded with fat and even experts say your not suposed to feed them more than 1 a week. I have BOOK right in front of me, and i believe that they have done a little more research before saying that pinkies are ok to feed all the time. To tell you the truth the only thing i could think of, for the reason why your adults are skinny, is your lying because explain to me this. How if i feed my leopards less than you do yours are skinnier? Please let me hear what you have to say.
'
Then why my adults are thin??? And always alert and active??

Mine is EXREMELY alert. The second i drop food into the tank and runs it down and catches anything with out missing...ever. So you can go on and on about my "poor" leopard but to tell you the truth i dont really care for, or need, your opinion. I will get it from people who have bred leopards for 20 years and not someone who has done it for 4 years k bud?

[Alicewave]

They are probably thin because they are not receiving adequate nutrition that they need to be fully healthy. They might also be thin from parasites that are more common in rodents. Tell me do you feed frozen thawed?

Leos are very hardy. just because they haven't died doesn't mean they are as healthy as they could be.

About Comdemning others, you are the one who was condemning Bartman, that is the only reason I bring this up because you're husbandry practices are not any better.

Why not breed mealworms and crickets too and feed those instead. THen you wouldn't even have to buy pinkies.

I consider 4 pinkies a week powerfeeding. Plus you are not feeding them anything else so how could they possibly handle what you're pushing them

Your allies comment: I didn't ask anyone else to post about this. I posted my opinion on the matter. They can speak for themselves on their own if they want to. This is a public forum.

As for a picture:
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/949dcp_1641-med.jpg
THat's Seneca, I'm very proud of him. Look at those healthy fat pockets under his front legs.

[TheRedDragon]

None yet. :(

[Mark]

2.9 right now. Not sure If I'm getting more or selling mine.

[drewlowe]

Here you go contricting yourself again.
My adults 2 pinkies each, twice a week

Pinkies are NOT a stable diet for leos!!!!!! leos are insectovores that means insects crix, mealworms, superworms, silkworms, butterworms, and as a TREAT pinkies and waxworms can be given. Pinkies as a treat not stable deff. not 4 a week never not even during breeding. maybe if you would feed them more insects then they would keep their weight.

Not every time can afford ALL the best food for our animals (silkworms).

Sorry crix and mealworms are not that expensive and easy to breed. In fact easier than silkworms.

I believe pinkies is a very good food once you feed it sparingly.

You say one thing and mean anouther. you say pinkies are ok sparinly but you feed 4 a week to your leos. Thats not sparinly!!!!!!

Oh, what we have here? 2 are better than one????...!!!!! You need to have someone on your side to condemn easier?!

I don't need meg on my side (it's nice having her there) but i don't have to have her any breeder (including myself) that cares for these reptiles will tell you that 4 pinkies a week is waaaaaay to much. I thought you said 2 pinkies a week she just pointed out that you feed 4 a week. And what does being a man have to do with breeding herps. Sorry but just because your a man doesn't make you a better breeder than women.

Colonel SB i couldn't agree with you more, that's why i don't power feed my adults with pinkies.

That's another contridiction how can you not be powerfeeding when you say you feed them 4 a week!!!!!!!!!!

(smart pills getting cheaper...the result?...)

and what in the he!! is that supposed to mean.


sorry to all of you that had to read my post but this person really pissed me off. More than i can say in a post on ssnakess. Normally i don't quote this much or get this upset. eyespy if you read this post will you please explain what 4 pinkies a week will do to his leos since me and meg don't count and we are just teaming up on this person. Since you have vet tech knowledge.

Bartman you are doing a great job and keep it up. And your leo's not in anyway in poor health from the way your feeding it.

[Bartman]

sorry to all of you that had to read my post but this person really pissed me off.


I agree!!!

[Alicewave]

Yup I'm interested in eyespy's comments on this as well. As stubborn as I can be with feeding mealies as a staple, eyespy really opened my eyes and I have started adding crix to their meals and I'm looking into silkworms as well. As soon as the shortage is over. :/ If anyone in the states knows of someone who actually has silkworms in stock, let me know.

[drewlowe]

alicewave check out www.herpfood.com i don't know if they have them right now but they did last week.

[Alicewave]

They are out til 9/1, same with Mulberry farms. Can't even get the eggs.

[reptilesalonica]

I have BOOK right in front of me, and i believe that they have done a little more research before saying that pinkies are ok to feed all the time.
My friend, not all books, either writers are correct.
Most books have written way back in 75 and 80!
Things can and will change though, from that time...
I have no reason to lie!!! Please take it back!
I have no reason lying to anyone.
And my geckos are NOT skinny. They have the normal weight.
I don't know why your gecko is looking fat, maybe the room you keep it is small, maybe you feed more than you say....
'
They are probably thin because they are not receiving adequate nutrition that they need to be fully healthy. They might also be thin from parasites that are more common in rodents. Tell me do you feed frozen thawed?
Alicewave, go and play with your toys...
Have you seen a leopard gecko out in the wild???
Reptiles are NOT mammals that need to eat until they explode (which i see in the photo of your gecko!!!)
Leopard geckos are thin, slender by nature so that they can move fast...
Keeping a leo that fat you don't respect it's ow kind!...
A reason more on these is that the leo don't live in the wild but restricted somewhere, so there's one more reason to keep it thin and NOT skinny.
'
About Comdemning others, you are the one who was condemning Bartman, that is the only reason I bring this up because you're husbandry practices are not any better.
I WAS NOT condemned anyone. I said my oppinion.
There's a major difference between these two...how old are you?
'
Why not breed mealworms and crickets too and feed those instead. THen you wouldn't even have to buy pinkies.
I don't buy neither, i breed them ALL. And i DON't want to feed crickets. Pinkies is a better food for adults.
Go and check my webpage.
~Greg~

[Bartman]

i dont care to argue with you at all..who knows, there is a chance i will learn something but whats the point of being a jack @$$.
Alicewave, go and play with your toys...
Honestly what was the piont of that...your like 30 something and you still try to insult people with lame jokes. :medsly:

[Alicewave]

Wow ok. Take a deep breath man. I'm sorry but the general consensus is that a plump Leo is better than a thin one. In this last post you say your geckos are not skinny but in the one just before it you say they are thin. Contradiction again. Geckos need good fat stores on their tails so they can survive the winter fast and anything else nature might throw their way. Were talking about captive Leos here, not wild ones. All my Leos have plenty of room and get plenty of exercize.

My gecko is fat because he is healthy. I feed him enough and my insects are well dusted and gutloaded.

Your comments about age and toys are uncalled for. They have no purpose in this discussion. I'm not sure which book Drew is referring to but the latest copy of the Leopard Gecko Manual was written in the late 90s so check your facts.

I don't agree that pinkies are better food for adults. I think we need to protect the innocent here from adopting that practice.

I normally don't like to get into people business and challenge hunsbandry practices unless I think their is a threat of death to the animal. If you hadn't accused Bartman of being cruel to his animals when he is exercizing sound husbandry practices, I would have left it alone. It's sad that you had to bring a negative spin to what was a friendly forum.

[drewlowe]

PINKIES are not a stable diet!!!!!!!! get that through your head. Leos are insectivores!!!!!!!

and your wrong leos store fat in their tail for hibernation during the winter and the females for breeding. Leos are not supposed to be thin or skinny like you said yours on a previous post now your saying yours isn't skinny ahhhhhh STOP CONTRIDICTING YOURSELF!!!!!!!!

[Zoe]

Bartman - that leo does not look in the least overweight to me. It looks right in the "healthy bracket"! Your feeding regimen sounds perfect.

And Gregg, your feeding regimen sounds terrible. Do you think leos raid mouse dens in the wild for their staple diet? Of course not, they are INSECTIVORIOUS! Pinkies can help fatten up females prior to/after breeding and laying eggs, but feeding 2 pinkies a week as a leos staple diet is crazy.

Yes, not all information in books is correct, but I think if every care sheet, every book backs what bartman says, and only you think it's okay to feed only pinkies, YOU are wrong. Find me 3 sources where it says "correct diet for an adult leo is 2 pinkies per week."! If anything, your leo looks on the thin side! She looks like a freshly imported leo, if anything. Why not help your leos out, feed 1 pinky a month and give them all the crix/silkies they want?

Zoe

Have you seen a leopard gecko out in the wild??? So your leos live on 2 square acres of land with birds and other predators? I mean, you are keeping CAPTIVE animals! They shouldn't look like wild animals - if they do it means they are sick and malnourished.

[Alicewave]

Better yet, find me a caresheet that says "2 pinkies twice a week"

[reptilesalonica]

It's obvious that i am surounded by small minded little kids here...
Why? :
In this last post you say your geckos are not skinny but in the one just before it you say they are thin. Contradiction again.
Tell me write now, where did i call my leos skinny!!!
Open a lexicon search the meaning of the word "thin" then the meaning of the word "skinny" and then we could talk...
'
So your leos live on 2 square acres of land with birds and other predators? I mean, you are keeping CAPTIVE animals! They shouldn't look like wild animals - if they do it means they are sick and malnourished.
Zoe, That's exactly what i am TRYING to say...
Since our leos don't live out there on 2 squares of land with birds and other predators and they live in CLOSER space, a mind of a 2 year old child could easily think that, they must fed with less food.
If leos were INSECTIVORES than why books talking about pinkies in their diets??...
Leos eat what they manage to eat. Not only insects.
~Greg~

[reptilesalonica]

To straight out a misunderstanding (find it difficult with english) i mean 2 pinkies every week.
~Greg~

[Colonel SB]

The books mention pinky as only part of thier diet not thier sole prey items. I think a diet of only one pery item is not good...Variety is the best for IMHO, so what one prey item lacks it should be made up by the others you feed. So yeas they may come across mice in the wild but it is not thier staple insects are.

[reptilesalonica]

I agree with you Colonel SB.

[reptilesalonica]

...like humans must eat 70% veggies and fruits...
But who does it?
~Greg~

[drewlowe]

It's obvious that i am surounded by small minded little kids here...

I'm sorry i'm not a kid and i'm not closeminded. You show me PROOF that leos are not insectivores!!!!

I have talked to so many breeders and vets and none of them use pinkies as a stable diet NONE of them. You are the ONLY person that i know of that suggests pinkies as a stable diet for adults. any book or caresheet out there or go talk to more breeders and vets and see what they say. They will say leos are INSECTIVORES!!!! Do you know what an insecivore is???? That means they eat INSECTS last time i checked a pinkie is not an insect. Now that isn't to say that sometimes as TREATS they may consume pinkies but as TREATS. Treats that means once in a while. Not 2 times a week!!!!!

If anyone is being close minded it's YOU!!!!!!!

Keep on feeding those adults pinkies and see if they will outlive mine that are feed a good variety of insects and the OCCASIONAL pinkie.

[drewlowe]

if you agree with colonel then you wouldn't feed them 2 pinkies a week. you would feed more insects stop contridicting yourself!!!!

If you were to read colonel agrees with me and alicewave about not feeding that many pinkies and that variety is the key. That means more insects not just pinkies and the occasional silkworm. It means more insects. Crix., mealworms, superworms, waxworms, butterworms, silkworms. That would mean you agree and you obvisily don't.

[drewlowe]

Open a lexicon search the meaning of the word "thin" then the meaning of the word "skinny" and then we could talk...

Here's Webster's Dictionary meaning of the 2 words.

Skinny- Thin, With no superfluous fat...

Thin-(of a person or animal) of slender build, or noticeably lacking fat...

and for people that don't know what superfluous is

Superfluous- Being more than is needed

So those words are pretty much the same.

Here are a few pics of some of my leos that are HEALTHY not fat or obese. they are feed a diet of mealie and crix. with treats of silkworms, butterworms, waxworms and the OCCASIONAL pinkie mouse. Leos need to have built up fat in their tail for hibernation and females during breeding. but if they can barely walk or they are not alert then they may be obese or fat.

http://ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1695healthy_leos_4.jpg
this next pic the one towards the bottom with the striped tail needs to gain more weight if i choose to breed her.
http://ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1695healthy_leos_3.jpg
sorry the last pic is blurry i tried to shrink it too much. but you can still see them clearly.
http://ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1695healthy_leos_1.jpg

And they were all laying down because it is daytime and that's when they are asleep. They come out at night and get plenty of exersise in their 75 gal. home.

[J-Man]

The only thing that you've said, reptilesalonica, that makes ANY sense WHATSOEVER is that they aren't fat in the wild. And even that isn't a good argument... it's just not as far out and insane as your other arguments. How can you argue with them? There are people giving you the chemical breakdowns of pinkies and why it's hard for leos to digest and you just brush it off and call them close minded and childish. That, my friend, is the eppitamy (sp?) of a close minded person.

I'm new to leos... just got 2 juvies about a month ago. And I'm proud to say that one is getting very plump and that he is the one that is getting more active. And the one that is not getting plump is the one that has trouble eating and catching prey. Just get out of your stubborn mood in which you think you have to defend yourself at all costs and be willing to learn from experienced breeders!

J-man

P.S. I'm gonna be seperating the two leos soon so the smaller one has a chance to eat... so it can get nice and FAT.

[GTPman4]

But the worse of all is that you don't accept any other oppinion!
It sounds to me like your the one who is not accepting anyone elses opinion,Reptilesalonica. I thought part of the reason for these forums is to gain others' knowledge in reptile husbandry so that we can better care for our herps!

P.S. I have 2 normal males. Nice looking leos everyone!!:D

[Darlene]

Well, well, well......how about a schooled & educated opinion then ? I have my pre-vet papers, animal health tech papers, animal science degree & a lifetime of husbandry behind me that includes many, many common & exotic species of many shapes & sizes. I will admit that I do not have a leo at the moment but a homeless one is arriving in two days. I do know for a fact that a leo is an insectivore. I also know that insectivore means eater of insects. I have many very up to date books right here now; including all my college/university texts. They all say that a pinkie is a baby mouse which is a mammal; not an insect. Leos; as has been stated over & over in this thread; are INSECTIVORES !!!!

[reptilesalonica]

drewlove on the last photo, the yellow one is ok, has normal weight. The other one next to it, is very obese and the one that is in front (the first) is a little more obese than normal.
Agree about the variety of food but, you don't know how a normal Leopard gecko is looking like.
Every creature at the time of birth has the right weight.
Follow the link, to see how NORMAL Leopard geckos look like when they are babies and at the end of the page se the 2 adults (hypo golden and hypo tang) to see the differencies between a leo in normal weight and a leo that is obese.

beth's website (http://www.mountaingeckos.freeservers.com/photo.html)
~Greg~

[Tim and Julie B]

Wow, talk about off-topic! But I can't resist adding my two cents.
This whole discussion is pointless. Why? Because no matter is said no one will change their feeding habits anyways. Everyone will remain on the defensive about what they practice. Everyone is convinced that they are doing what should be done to maintain their geckos health. The truth of the matter is that no one keeping leos in captivity is providing the correct diet. Why? Because we cannot commercially buy the same insects that they eat in the wild. Basically the species has adapted itself to a captive life because we have forced it to. As far as looking a leo and determining health, it cannot be done. Could you walk into a doctor's office with a bad case of fatty liver disease and have your doctor properly diagnose you? Not even a vet would make that kind of assumption based on little more than appearance. The reason leos are thinner in the wild is because they are riddled with parasites. I cannot remember anyone saying that a wild caught specimen was parasite free and perfectly healthy. It does not happen. EVER!!!!! As for feeding pinkies-only someone with a severe lack of principal and no understanding of reptile health, would feed their leos so many pinkies so often. The only reason for this is to help thin ones gain weight for breeding or if they are not maintaining weight. If pinkies are being fed almost exclusively and the leos aren't gaining weight then there is an underlying problem, most likely a harmful parasite, and in which case you should take your leo to the vet asap. INSECTS are what leos eat, not red meat prey items, they are NOT like snakes and to feed them like such is blatently cruel and unproffessional.

Gotta go cause now we are DEFINATELY evacuated because of the fire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bye guys, talk again soon, I hope.

Julie B.

[reptilesalonica]

Ok now i got the point. Wild geckos is something abnormal while fat household Leos are healthy.
What we keep far away from it's main residence is normal and what is nature's birth is abnormal...
Now i'm done...
I remain to what i stated bedore...thin reptiles are healthier than obese ones...ask any breeder about power feeding...
~Greg~

[drewlowe]

it's DREWLOWE not LOVE

i'm not arguing with you anymore. All my females are completly 100% healthy. Not fat but healthy.

Because no matter what we say your NEVER going to listen. so keep on feeding them pinkies as a stable diet.

LOL babies don't have the perfect weight. I've hatched out enough leos to be able to tell you that.

Damn and i said i wasn't going to argue. anything you even say, i'm not going to listen. Why waste my time.

[reptilesalonica]

LOL babies don't have the perfect weight. I've hatched out enough leos to be able to tell you that.
YOU are not the one who will tell me anything. WHO are you?
Nature tells us, to all of us...that all babies of aaaall species in aaaall the animalia kingdom, at the birth time they have the right weight...but who listens???
I don't expect from people who has food as an enjoyment in their lives, anything different....
They learn to eat much, they will give much food to their children and pets...
If i am wrong giving only pinkies to my adult leos then you are double wrong, power-feeding your herps.
Suddenly the judge and the court set up for the trial??????
Against whom and for what?!?!
First you must learn to feed yourselves!
~Greg~

[Amiechann]

Here's a few pics of some of my gekkers
http://geckoisland.com/modules/gallery/albums/album78/psyche1.sized.jpg

http://geckoisland.com/modules/gallery/albums/album78/persephone02.sized.jpg

http://geckoisland.com/modules/gallery/albums/album78/cupid02.sized.jpg

[Darlene]

Does this include all those who are born too early ?

[reptilesalonica]

No, of course not Darlene.
Ammichann, congrats! cute faces, amazing colours, great shape! :D :thumbsup:
~Greg~

[Zoe]

If leos were INSECTIVORES than why books talking about pinkies in their diets?? Because an OCCASIONAL pinky is good for a preggo mother! More contractions, anyway, Gregg. First you say never to listen to anything a book a says, and now you are trying to use a feeble, book-based argument. Congratulations.

Leos eat what they manage to eat. Not only insects. So in the wild, leos manage to eat 2 pinkies a week?

Everyone will remain on the defensive about what they practice. Not a good herper! A good herper that loves their animals will look at everything for every point of view, and then based on logic and facts will choose the best method. Greg isn't doing that.
Maybe the whole world is against him? I mean, it's entirely possible that everyone on this site, every book and caresheet and research paper ever written were wrong, right? And that Greg, the one person in the world who feeds his poor leos 2 pinkies a week? (that was sarcasm, btw)

ask any breeder about power feeding...
Another contradiction, Greg! You say to consult a breeder, but do you not understand that many people in this thread do breed leos?

You also mentionned that humans are supposed to eat a certain amount of meat. You are right, not everyone eats well. But who do you know that eats 2 steaks a week, and only that?
I also agree that some leos are obese - but all the leos I've seen here were completely healthy (though some were borderline chubby ;).

Anyway Greg, swallow your pride and do whats right for your leos. You can't possibly believe that you are the one person in the world who does it correctly? Everyone makes mistakes, and lots of people get defensive when their methods are questionned, but there is much dignity in admitting a mistake and fixing the problem. If you won't even see things from another point of view, well, there is little respect to be given to a person like that.

Zoe

[reptilesalonica]

Zoe,
I mentioned TWO times that i agree with the variety of food but the 2/3 of your post is to condemn ME for feeding only pinkies to my adults...
You are talking about swallowing the pride but you do your best to not let anyone to change his ways (pinkies)...
You wanna play it THE judge here or the Teacher??http://www.esoterica.gr/forums/icon_smile_evil.gif
'
Another contradiction, Greg! You say to consult a breeder, but do you not understand that many people in this thread do breed leos?
(She's playing with words now)...Someone who breeds LEOS isn't a serious breeder...
2 year old children can breed leos...What i mean (i have to say it letter by letter) is go and ask a big breeder with lot of experience...
(unless you DON'T want to understand what i'm saying...)
'
But who do you know that eats 2 steaks a week, and only that?
Humans are not reptiles, must eat every day.
'
Everyone makes mistakes, and lots of people get defensive when their methods are questionned, but there is much dignity in admitting a mistake and fixing the problem. If you won't even see things from another point of view, well, there is little respect to be given to a person like that.
:D...You have a big heart!...(that was sarcasm)
If someone cannot understand what i'm saying then i don't need his respect...http://www.esoterica.gr/forums/icon_smile_evil.gif
Have a nice day!http://www.esoterica.gr/forums/icon_smile_kisses.gif
~Greg~

[Zoe]

Originally posted by reptilesalonica
[B]Zoe,
You are talking about swallowing the pride but you do your best to not let anyone to change his ways (pinkies)...
huh? Greg, I would assure you if pinkies were the correct staple diet for leos, that is what I would be feeding mine.


2 year old children can breed leos...What i mean (i have to say it letter by letter) is go and ask a big breeder with lot of experience...
Very well... I'll e-mail Albey, Tremper, Gecko Corral etc. I'll ask them if 2 pinkies/week is the correct diet of a leo. Okay?
And 2 year old kids can breed leos, huh? That's neat - wearing diapers and breeding leos!

Humans are not reptiles, must eat every day. Ahh but my point is the same. Okay, 2 steaks per DAY?[/QUOTE]

No Greg, I understand. You feed 2 pinkies to your adult leos because you think they should look skinny and unhealthy like they do in the wild. You think all books, caresheets, research papers, vets, big breeders, everyone on this site etc are incorrect, and that you, and you alone, feed your leos perfectly. Right? Or am I missing something? And you refuse to feed insects because though leos are insectivorious, they SOMETIMES eat pinkies in the wild, so that means they should eat ONLY pinkies in captivity, too. I think that covers it.

Zoe

[Alicewave]

Well guys it is clear we aren't going to get through to him. A good thing is that this discussion provides Leo keepers with some excellent info to for new keepers to make an educated decision on what to feed their leos. I could go on and on pointing out reptilesalonica's contradictions but it is futile to try to educate someone who doesn't want to learn how to better care for their geckos for the sake of their ego. Hopefully, others who question what to feed their Leos can read this thread and gain some valuable info.

[peregrinefalcon]

Amiechann, those leos are adorable!!! Especially the one with the black marking on the face :D Could you post a closer pic of her?
Adam

[Amiechann]

The one with the black spot is Cupid. It's the only black spot on his entire body. I've never seen another leo like him. The only problem is that he has a partial tail regrow from an incident that happened with a previous owner. I'll get some more pics of him to show off though :D

Thanks for the compliment Greg!

[reptilesalonica]

If i am wrong giving only pinkies to my adult leos then you are double wrong, power-feeding your herps.

[Zoe]

Oh! I forget to say what I had! I have 2.2 right now, and one 0.0.1. 1.1 are reduced pattern/hy, 0.1 is a giant tremper albino and 0.0.1 is an almost-super hypo tang! ;) lol. They are really cute, I love them!

And yup Alicewave I do agree. It was a nice discussion though - very fun except for a part of it! I just wish ignorance didn't result in unhealthy herps :\

Zoe

[reptilesalonica]

I just wish ignorance didn't result in unhealthy herps
We made the same wish ;)
~Greg~

[Mike177]

1.0.2 and looking to sell the 0.0.2

[Dark_Angel_x322]

I have 2 leos and my sister has 2.
I think both mine are females but I'm not sure what her's are though. For some reason I think both of her's are males but sometimes they both look female and sometimes one of each... it gets confusing.
My sister's have been housed together for the past month and a half with only one "fight" (her albino bit at her normal's neck and actually bit onto its tail, but no damage. that was a few days ago.) and once in a while the albino will horde the food. (The normal is larger than the albino and does not look like it is not getting enough to eat.) Then during the day they will sleep by or on each other. So that confuses me even more. My sister's albino also started stalking my one leo when i had them visiting yesterday. Of course my hand was between the leos as soon as i seen it. So any suggestions? Does it sound like she may have a bossy male or a hot female?

Sorry for the long post but i figure this would kind of fit here instead of making a new thread.

Pictures!
Baby (Mine)
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/265826/Baby0504.jpg
Amazon (Mine)
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/511/2479amazon0500.jpg
Mystic (Sister's; Older picture)
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/265826/Mystic11.jpg
Treasure (Sister's; Older picture)
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/265826/Treasure08.jpg

[Zoe]

It sounds like that might be an agressive male, yup.

Also, their tails look very thin, so that could a problem too. Provide them as much food as they can possibly eat and some of those aggression problems should go away.

Zoe

[Dark_Angel_x322]

All the leos or just the bottom two pictures? the pictures of my sister's leos (bottom ones) are older pictures so their tails have filled out a bit since then. I will try to get a couple of new ones later. I always thought that Mystic was a male but I have also never sexed leos before so I kind of second guess myself.

Thanks!

[damzookeeper]

I have 70+ leos at the moment.
And Bartman your leo looks like it is in good health but really imo only a few tests can tell this for sure.
Not trying to start something here, just out of concern...
Greg, I could be wrong but your leo's tail looks like a rescue leo's tail I got a while back that had parasites so I would seriously think of getting a fecal. Espcially if it is that thin when feeding 2 pinkies a week. Also, I was often told by big breeders that feeding pinkies to my beardies could cause them to have parasties, now wouldn't that do the same for leos? I have never had eithor get parasites from pinkies that I know of but I'm assuming it is possible. I feed my leos crickets and mealworms and silkies when I can get them although not all of them will take the mealies or the silkies. I also feed occasional pinkies but this is only about one every 2-3 months, with fecals every 6 months.
And yes, say what you want but I have a few males that are nearing 70 grams and a couple females that are nearing 60-65. They have been to the vet and she said they were parasite free and healthy. They do not drag on the ground and they are very alert and love to come out and explore.
Here is one of my males.
http://www.reptilerascals.com/leo2003-05-27louie.jpg

and a breeding female.
http://www.reptilerascals.com/leo2003-03-03lovieside.JPG

[damzookeeper]

Originally posted by Dark_Angel_x322
All the leos or just the bottom two pictures? the pictures of my sister's leos (bottom ones) are older pictures so their tails have filled out a bit since then. I will try to get a couple of new ones later. I always thought that Mystic was a male but I have also never sexed leos before so I kind of second guess myself.

Thanks!

actually their tails look pretty normal to me. They were very young in those pictures right? They look like hatchlings to me, if I"m right then it is normal for them to have such small tails, after a month or two they start getting the storage in the tail so you can see the difference. How old are they now? It is quite possible you have a male as well.
Also if you want to check their sex you can visit my site and click on the link that says sexing a herp, go to leopard gecko and there are some good pictures there to help you. You can usually tell quite acurately at 6 months but I have been able to tell as young as 3-4 months.

[Linds]

I have 3 girls, my sister has 2.2... I don't want to get a huge amount of leos, snakes are more my thing, so my girls have access to her boys whenever ;)

[Emily-Fisher]

I've only got three.

Tafkap, my female super hypo tangerine carrottail (She is now much more orange, has a much bigger carrottail and has no more body spots) from Tarzet's.<br><img src="http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/511/1248tafkap3.jpg"><br>*****<br>Stitch, my male orange banded tremper albino from BigDan. Has much more orange now than in this pic.<br><img src="http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/511/1248stitch1.jpg"><br>*****<br>And last but DEFINATELY not least... SMEAGOL! My little stripey boy from HQR :D<br><img src="http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1248smeagol1-med.gif">

[J-Man]

Emily, tafkap is gorgeous! Especially if you say she's even more orange and lost all of her spots! You should be proud.

[Colonel SB]

I like Smeagol :) looks so cute in that pic.

[Dark_Angel_x322]

They were very young in those pictures right? They look like hatchlings to me, if I"m right then it is normal for them to have such small tails, after a month or two they start getting the storage in the tail so you can see the difference. How old are they now?

I am guessing they are about 3 months old, i know mine are about 5" & 5.5" but i haven't measured my sister's. Oh i was curious where did everyone get the scales they use to weigh their leos?

[reptilesalonica]

damzookeeper they are not WC. I keep them 4 years from a friends' clutch.
~Greg~

[Linds]

I wanted to stay out of it, but I can't help myself but backup everyone on this issue...

Rodents are not the natural staple diet of leos. They need a lot more roughage in their diet, they get this from insects. Pinkies are fine as an <I>occassional</I> treat, to aid in fattening up thin geckos, and to aid in maintaining the weight of breeding females. Pinkies are too high in fat to be fed as a staple. It has been <I>proven</I> that a diet too high in fat leads to fatty liver disease in geckos. Although many lizards, frogs, and even some herp-eating snakes may voraciously take rodents, this is not to say that it is the best thing for them. It may take years and years for symptoms to show as well, and by then the damage can be too severe, as well as the life span will have been indefinitely shortened :( I agree with drewlowe, hopefully eyespy will reply to this thread, as she has more first-hand experience with this issue, hence can put up a better play :) Nobody is condemning anyone, and if thats anyones intent then they can quit now. This is a herp-lovers site, everyone is just concerned with the well-being of their herps as well as everyone elses, no ill intent ;)

[damzookeeper]

Originally posted by reptilesalonica
damzookeeper they are not WC. I keep them 4 years from a friends' clutch.
~Greg~

Greg, I never said your's were WC. I said the tail looked as skinny as a recue I got a while back that had parasites. They don't have to be WC to have parasites, this one sertainly wasn't a wild caught. Even her parents were CB.
But they can get parasites from many things. These are also not meant for you but for anyone in general...
Running over their fecus, infested crickets or rodents, touching an animal at a pet store that has parasites and then coming home to your own animal and picking him/her up without washing your hands inbetween. Any of the factors above topped with stress can cause a higher level of parasite presence.
It is sometimes hard to read a persons attitude or personality throught words on the net. I am not trying to condem you or put you down. I just thought you might want to get a fecal run to rule out parasites.

[Emily-Fisher]

Thanks Colonel_SB, thanks J-Man!! tafkap is also bigger now Than she is in that pic but not by much!! Smeagol's stripe is no longer solid but you can still see it!! Only now it's a stripe made out of spots :) I bought Tafkap and Stitch as breeders and pets but I bought Smeagol just as a pet so I'm not dissapointed about his stripe one bit :) However, from the looks of it, Smeagol will be breeding much sooner than Tafkap or Stitch because this spring, he's going to be paired up with Nala, one of Pixie's leos!! :D