Croc Hunter hit a new low!

[BWSmith]

This was talked about on another forum and I figured it need to be shown here.

Croc Hunter went on Oprah recently. Ack!! You can imagine the damage he did this time. (all photos are from www.oprah.com, so she don't sue me :) )


OK, let's bring an 8 foot gator out onto the stage. I don't see no tape on that mouth, but maybe I am missing it.
http://images.oprah.com/tows/slide/20020708/images/slide_20020708_animal04_350.jpg
Oh and Oprah gives it a hug! What I wouldn't give to put a dead chicken around her neck! So old "Stevo" shows the world that anyone can handle an Alligator. Good message there.





And just when you thought it couldn't get worse!
From transcript:
Steve: The best thing to do, Oprah, when you touch her, don't actually grab her. Just let her glide through your hand and she'll actually feel the warmth of your hand. Mate, this would be so big for snake conservation!
Oprah: She's a beaut'. Just a beaut'...wonderful Cleo!
http://images.oprah.com/tows/slide/20020708/images/slide_20020708_animal06_350.jpg
Gee, it's only a huge banded egyptian cobra! This screams "Venomous snakes are EASY! Anyone can do it!"



For years I have had issues about his handling and the message he sends. But this is different. He is putting a layman at risk! He is demonstrating the anyone can do it. It is bad enough when he works without equipment, but now lets get another media icon doing one of the stupidest things I have ever seen. A freaking talkshow host tailing an adult cobra is mroe than I can take. I can't think straight rightnow. More to come.

[marisa]

BWSmith the Croc Hunter will be the end of you dude when it comes to frustration levels. LOL.

Yeah that is very scary. Leave it to those two to make a joke out of some of those most dangerous animals alive.

Marisa

[Ed_r]

In Steves defense here( Yeah I know) The alligator there is Jim Nessie's(sp) He does Reptile fest here. Thats Bubba. Bubba is probably the tamest alligator on this planet. JIm avidly discusses that Alligators do NOT make good pets, and that NO ONE should own one. In all reality I can attest Bubba literally will not hurt a fly.
I did not see the show so i don't know how he was portrayed. Or if Stevo just made it seem like he was the master of all crocadilians.

I do understand the image that brings up. But NO ONE was at risk in the photo.

As far as the cobra... Fire Away!!!

[marisa]

How can you say that? You are talking about a WILD animal. Would you allow yuor young daughter to walk up to this tame croc with some chicken in her hand?

NO croc is "tame" and NO ONE can promise anything when dealing with wild animals.

Think about all those "never hurt anyone" Orcas who have killed trainers after YEARS of calm and placid captivity?

The Elephants who children ride on at the Circus who go on mad rampages one day years after being in captivity?

I can't even believe you would string "NO ONE was at risk" in the same sentence with a croc. When working with these animals crocs or hots SOMEONE is ALWAYS at risk.

IMHO.
Marisa

[enso]

I have to agree with Ed_r about the gator. As for the cobra, most people have a very healthy fear of venomous snakes. If anyone out there in TV land is stupid enough to try this then i say let them. They can suffer the consequences. The planet is overpopulated anyway.

[Ed_r]

NO croc is "tame" and NO ONE can promise anything when dealing with wild animals.
I know Bubba Persoanlly, and yes he is tame. Youcould pet him on the nose handle him pick him up anything you want, he is TAME Trust me on this. Bubba is a 1 in a Billion alligator.

I can't even believe you would string "NO ONE was at risk" in the same sentence with a croc. When working with these animals crocs or hots SOMEONE is ALWAYS at risk.

Bubba encounters tenns of thousands of people on an anual basis. He is used to them and its always on an up close basis. Bubba is always well fed before ANY appearance, and proper precautions are aways made, food oders elimated and such. There really is NO risk with Bubba.

I personally have watched the table with Bubba while jim had to walk away fro a bit, Its intimidating, but he is that placid.

[marisa]

LOL o.k. dude. The fact you are even putting "tame" as a descriptive word with reptiles is wrong IMHO. NO reptile is EVER tame. That's a fact.

If you believe "Bubba" doesn't have the ability to hurt someone, thats on you. But in the end this misconception could kill someone some day. You aren't thinking about FACTS. The fact is NO gator can be "tame" like a dog. Period. Sure he may act that way for 20 years. That means for 20 years he has ACCEPTED being handled and pet. He has NO mental understanding to NOT hurt people, he just accepts it. It's not like a truthworthy dog who knows humans are not to be hurt but protected. It's more like he goes with it. But one day if he doesn't want too, you better believe someone could be missing an arm.

Marisa

[enso]

Only if he was hungry and you were waving that arm in his face. =o

[Ed_r]

YOu keep comparing him to mans best friend being tame yet there are So many dog bites throughout the world. People should be tame yet we kill each other all the time. Is there a true definition or exaple of tame? NO.

There is risk crossing the street.

Anything can bite.

[fatboy]

I have said this before....just because someone sees a person on TV "playing" with a venomous snake it will not start a trend. Who cares....it's entertainment. Most of us don't care for it because we are educated on the subject, but it sells to the general public. If you want to change something buy a spot on TV and make your own "public service" announcement.

[marisa]

You yourself have just said anything can bite so why you would put "tame" in a sentence with a croc I still don't understand. I don't keep comparing him with a dog YOU do by using words like "tame" and "no risk" your are basically telling people this croc behave like a dog and the risk level is the same when CLEARLY it's not the same at all!

Marisa

[BWSmith]

just because someone sees a person on TV "playing" with a venomous snake it will not start a trend.
Try keeping up with the news and the state of the hobby, it already has. This is just more fuel.

[Ed_r]

Sure its the same. As I said Dogs bite all the time, yet they are considered tame. So i say its a similar comparison.

[fatboy]

Originally posted by BWSmith
Try keeping up with the news and the state of the hobby, it already has. This is just more fuel.

Only a few see it that way. You can twist it to see it how you want to. Me and you can argue till we're blue in the face and we'll still see this subject different. :)

[V.hb]

Marisa, i doubt highly you have ever dealt with an american alligator..... They can become quite tame. I wouldn't hug one, but Ive seen quite a few that are incredibly tolerable to human presence.. And obviously the one on Oprah was quite tame.


The Indian cobra is another story.. I like the croc hunter, and I even got annoyed seeing that.

[marisa]

O.k. dude whatever. Your logic is not even staying the same post to post. In your first you say its tame, then you tell me to stop compariing it to a dog, THEN you say you think its a good comparision. I am done. LOL.

Marisa

[enso]

Marisa, this was a gator. There is a MAJOR difference in the base temperment of a croc and a gator. Same order, diff families, diff genus, diff species. =o

[marisa]

VHb Of course I haven't dealt with one, does that mean I would go around telling people they are "tame"

LOL why would ANYONE tell a person who is NOT the keeper of the croc in question its tame I HAVE NO IDEA. That's asking for more accidents and bad press for herps.

But o.k. people. Go ahead and tell whoever you want your crocs are tame. Lets hope someone WON'T pet it like a dog and make more bad news for those who keep them responsibly. I don't feel telling people they are "tame" (which is a word that shouldn't apply to ANY reptile) are keeping the responsibly.

Marisa

[marisa]

croc gator, ITS A WILD ANIMAL.

OMG I can't even beleive I am reading this stuff. You are all advocating telling layman herpers than crocs, gators, whatever are tame? Wow. I can see where problems happen.

Marisa

[enso]

I never said they were tame, just trying to distinguish the difference between a croc and a gator.

[marisa]

I think some of you are not getting what I am saying,

I am NOT argueing that people can hug a gator or croc they own without getting bitten. I am not argueing that some places have them where the public can get a closer look, I AM not agreeing with the label tame. Period. I won't. AndI would never tell anyone any gator or croc is tame enough that a risk doesn't exsist.

How that is wrong I have no clue. But o.k.

Marisa

[BWSmith]

Boy this went off topic in record time.

I think the word that would clear up the argument about gators is "docile" rather than "tame"

Only a few see it that way. You can twist it to see it how you want to.
It is not an opinion or interpretation, it is a fact. I have posted numerous news reports and direct quotes verifying the impact on the general population. As far as the hobby, have you been following the market trends in venomous for the past 5 years? If you have, then it is VERY clear. Not much grey area.

[enso]

But as the number of venomous sold increases do the bite rates skyrocket? Or stay relatively the same? I don't keep hots. And know nothing of the #'s.

[marisa]

THat word WOULD clear up MY whole point. And so would people not saying there is no risk involved. If its not clear that a RISK is involved then I am scared to think who is keeping GATORS and CROCS out there.

And I don't even keep venemous but its clear what bad press does to the hobby in general.

Marisa

[fatboy]

Enso made a good point....put up the numbers.

[Ed_r]

Marisa get the sand out of your craw and quit arguing. BW ok Docile may be a better word for it. LOoks like someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today Geez. Wish some people were more docile.:rolleyes:

[BWSmith]

But as the number of venomous sold increases do the bite rates skyrocket? .
That is where it gets interesting. While the market for true venomous has increased regularly, there was not a sharp spike overnight when Croc Hunter came on the scene. Bites seem to have risen more rapidly than the market. But where it is ver apparent is in the market of Venomoids. Since the airing of Irwin, the demand for voids has incresed over 10 fold virtually overnight.

[BWSmith]

At this moment, 10% of ads on KS hot classifieds are venomoids. That was an easy number to get. Bites of idiots mimicking him are harder to get because news stories come and go and are harder to track down. I will see what I can dig up tonight. Shouldnt be too difficult.

[BAZ]

I think people are too quick to jump on Steve Irwin. First of all crocs and gators have very different personalities and each individual animal is very different. I can handle one of the aligators at the zoo and I don't worry about her mouth being taped but at the same time I would not handle a mugger or nile croc the same way I handle this particular alligator.

As for the cobra thing well I am sure it was under very controlled circumstances. I was in a room with a king cobra last week and it was 3 ft away from me but I felt completely safe because there was an experienced person who was there controlling the situation. Steve Irwin has been handling venemous snakes and crocs and gators all his life.. lets give him a bit of credit on this because I think he knows what he is doing when it comes to these animals. I am positive Oprah was in no danger.

[python_diva_06]

what the f*ck are you all complaining about... have you ever even watched an episode of the Croc Hunter...my god, every two seconds he warns that no one should do what he's about to do...and if anyone watched the Oprah show he more than likely said it on there...and what the hell is wrong with Oprah...I think she's awesome... BWSmith, you shouldn't judge people based on the TV show...my God, you shouldn't judge at all...i think that's it's awesome that Steve went on there, all he's trying to do is teach people about how beautiful these animals are, and if you have a problem with that maybe, just maybe, your in the wrong forum...just throwing my 2 cents in there for Steve and Oprah's defence, im sure im going to take a lot of sh*t for this, but, i really don't care...

[BWSmith]

I felt completely safe because there was an experienced person who was there controlling the situation.
The difference is, how can Steve have ANY control over the snake when he is not touching it? Oprah has it in HER hands. That is the big difference. It would not have been as big of a deal if HE was the one tailing it.

[python_diva_06]

THANK YOU BAZ!!!!!!!!!!! YOU ROCK OUT!!!

[jay72]

Why is that? It seems that I am in the minority when I say that the whole practice of venomoids sickens me. What is the relation between the Croc Hunter and people getting venomoids?

Sloane Russeck

[python_diva_06]

but, they point is he was there making sure everything went smooth...i mean it's not like he was off stage getting something to drink...

[BWSmith]

just throwing my 2 cents in there for Steve and Oprah's defence
That is great. I hate one sided discussions. I love it when people are not intimidated and are willing to offer opinions against the more vocal people. Keep it coming :)

[BWSmith]

Why is that? It seems that I am in the minority when I say that the whole practice of venomoids sickens me. What is the relation between the Croc Hunter and people getting venomoids?

First of all, I and others are VERY vocal against voids. Flip through past threads on venomoids here, they are not hard to find. One in particular gave great opinions from sides. Turned into a great thread.

Relationship? People want them, but don't want the risk. I think someone posted a great correlation between the two (could have been me, can't remember). i will try to dig up that thread and insert a quote from it.

[enso]

Jay, i would guess that if you took a poll on ssnakess you'd find that most here don't agree with venomoids. Personally i find it very, very wrong for a few different reasons.

[python_diva_06]

im a slightly new herper, and don't know a lot of "hot" vocab., but, i'v been wondering for a long time and i think this is a good time to find out...what exactly are venomoids???

[enso]

Snakes with their venom glands surgically removed.

[python_diva_06]

THAT'S JUST WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[enso]

Yes, it goes completely agianst nature.

[The_Omen]

So people don't do what they see on TV and in movies?

Fire. (http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special21/articles/0627burnedboy.html)

A 10-year-old Glendale boy was seriously burned Thursday afternoon when an older friend set him on fire to re- enact a scene from Jackass: The Movie, authorities said

Car. (http://www.channelcincinnati.com/news/740161/detail.html)

More charges could be filed in connection with a stunt -- reportedly inspired by the MTV show "Jackass" ? that went awry and seriously injured a Tri-State teen.

Pool. (http://www.nbc6.net/news/2283622/detail.html)

The 18-year-old who slipped trying to jump into a pool from a five-story condominium while allegedly imitating a stunt from the former MTV television show "Jackass" has been charged with trespassing.

This is from a simple 30 second search for news on the movie.

It quite possibly pales in comparison to the sheer numbers of people worldwide that see the Croc hunter on a weekly basis.


'Life imitates art.'

After the first Harry Potter movie came out a few years ago, a local kid was injured (broken neck if I recall) while jumping from the kitchen counter while trying to fly a broom.

About a year ago, local news had interviews with kids imitating their favorite wrestlers.. Problem is, these kids were getting real injuries from this. (fractured skulls, broken ribs etc.)

Nothing to do with snakes, just an attempt to let the naysayers realize that people DO act out, portray, copy etc. etc. etc. what they see on TV and in movies.

[python_diva_06]

im sorry...but, those people are idiots!!!

[marisa]

Why would I quit argueing when I feel you are wrong in saying there is NO risk when working with wild animals? You just would prefer me to drop it? That's ridiculous. I will drop it but only because I see no reason why ANYONE who cares about this hobby would say "no risk" and it seems you will continue to do so, so have at it. IMO there was most certainly a risk during that show, a small one? Maybe. No risk? Of course there was!

And "waking up on the wrong side of the bed" I don't see how telling someone who believes you are wrong they are just grumpy has ANYTHING to do with the discussion and frankly its rude to assume my opinions only differ with yours because I am "grumpy" which I am not. I just don't agree with telling peoples there is no risk.

I will stop argueing with you, because you just dodge my answers and tell me I am "grumpy" and should stop argueing. This forum IS FOR discussion, not people being quiet because they don't agree with you.

The Omen- Good post. People most definitly monkey see monkey do.

Marisa

[The_Omen]

im sorry...but, those people are idiots!!!

Exactly.
And those idiots might breed if they survive long enough.

That means even more idiots to do even dumber things.

Like copying what they see on TV and movies.


After the Fast and the Furious hit theaters here, there was a marked increase in speed related accidents.
Mainly in the younger drivers.

There was also an increase in graphics kits and spoilers along with loud exhaust tips that coincided with the increase in accidents.

'Life imitates art'

[Pixie]

Wow! This is a very interesting debate! I had viewed the episode when it originally aired and was quite impressed with it.

First one has to look at the target audience of the Oprah show. Not many immature young people watch it!!! lol So to think that people would immitate what they saw on the Oprah show I think is pretty darn hilarious!!!

What I liked about it is that Oprah did get close and touch the animals. How many middle aged women celebrities of her "genre" would do such a thing??? Not many!!! So I like the idea that millions of housewices around the world saw her do those gutsy moves. We are talking about an audience that is very misinformed on reptiles and probably think that they shouldn't even exist. So for them seeing such an episode and learning something out of it I think is a good thing.

Now, there are some shows that induce some young ones to do stupid things. If they had dangerous reptiles on Jackass, I'd be the first to try and stop them!

About the issue of "tame" or "docile" animals, I do believe that there are exceptions to every rule and can believe that a particular animal is more trusted around people than others. I myself have one snake in my collection that is the one I introduce newbies to, I can't be 100% sure that nothing bad will happen but I'm pretty sure and confident that it wont. Of course very careful monitering is essential!

Pixie

[BWSmith]

First one has to look at the target audience of the Oprah show.
Now that is one aspect that I have not thought about. But do you think that with her advertising that Steve was going to be on, there may have been a more diverse demographic watching that day? Just food for thought (since this has been a dead topic LOL)

[The_Omen]

First one has to look at the target audience of the Oprah show. Not many immature young people watch it!!! lol So to think that people would immitate what they saw on the Oprah show I think is pretty darn hilarious!!!

How do you think Oprah got to be popular?
Do you really believe that a mature audience is going to support and watch someone that they do NOT want to emulate?

Hmmm...

Oprah got rich almost overnight.
Everyone desires to be like that.
The ones who watch her will attempt or at least consider being exactly like Oprah in order to get here.


'Life imitates art'

[J-Man]

Pixie,

In the Jackass movie, stevo (ironic, I know) climbs along a tight rope (above crocs) with a peice of meat hanging out of a jock strap.

[daver676]

I think that this type of exposure is good for the herp community. Steve Erwin always advocates conservation and protection of ALL reptiles.

I agree that perhaps letting Oprah handle a venomous snake probably wasn't the best idea, but I don't see any way that this exposure could hurt the herping community, or add fuel to the flames of the "exotic animals as pets" debate.

Dave

[The_Omen]

In the Jackass movie, stevo (ironic, I know) climbs along a tight rope (above crocs) with a peice of meat hanging out of a jock strap.

Wouldn't that have made rated X or sumthin... ;)

[enso]

Agian, it was gators in that clip, some of you need to learn the difference...

[Pixie]

I forgot about the gator scene in the movie... Hmmm, will have to think about that one more! I guess I didn't react as much to that scene because they went to a particular place to do the stunt and didn't get an animal and "play" with it.

As for the Oprah target audience, even if Steve Irwin is on it, I know of very few teens that will tune in to it. They prefer the croc hunter and things of the likes but I could be wrong.

The problem with venomoids in my opinion is the easy access to them and their low cost. If those things were different, it didn't matter on what TV show they would be shown, they would be too hard to get their hands on.

Pixie

[BWSmith]

Returning to this for a moment:

all he's trying to do is teach people about how beautiful these animals are, and if you have a problem with that maybe, just maybe, your in the wrong forum
The issue is not education or conservation, it is technique and irresponsibility.

[enso]

This is true, Steve's cowboy like attitude when dealing with most dangerous animals is disheartening. It's too bad he's not a better example of proper technique.

[crucified]

i saw the show.

he had to convince oprah to hold the snake for a couple seconds..
and the aligator.. well it was like a puppy..
if i recall i think he mentioned they aren't all that calm and this shouldn't be done with all of them.. and same with the snake emphasized the danger of the cobra..
but then i could just be thinking this?
hrmm... interesting show though... should of tied chicken to oprah's neck like it was earlier suggested ;)

[V.hb]

Marisa, I didnt mean to go as far as saying the alligator should be labelled as tame, Sorry if i wasnt clear. However, BAZ worded it perfectly, Crocs and Gators have extremely different personalities, I saw the show in question and even steve said that, and also said he would never have a croc on stage. On the topic of the Cobra, I also agree with BAZ, iam sure he had the animal in a controlled area, and he knew what he was doing.

I still think Steve does a great job showing people that reptiles aren't something to be afraid of, but they are something that deserves respect.

[fatboy]

Omen you are comparing apples and oranges by using Jackass. The only scene was the gator scene but no one got eaten by a gator after the movie. Yeah, people try stupid stuff but no one is gonna grab a cobra by the tail after watching Oprah. You can't prove this point to me, even though BW is about to try :)

[Siretsap]

You know what, you guys are overracting. If it is soo dangerous to do taht, then why do some of you even keep them?

[GI Joe]

I love watching croc hunter but he really frustrates me. He takes too many chances and I believe he is teaching poor handling techniques. I was teaching a reptile Boy Scout merit badge class the other day and asked what to do if you see a snake in the wild. They all said leave him alone until one boy promptly picks up my BP by the tail and said, " If you pick em up this way they can't bite". I nearly LMAO when he jumped a foot as the ball came back up his own body and up the kids arm. Turned out to be a great demo on how dangerous picking up a snake COULD be.

[Siretsap]

Did you ever watch the barefoot bushman?
And it doesn't come down to chances. They act on instinc and are predictable. They do not think, barefoot bushman proves it a lot.

[fatboy]

Originally posted by Siretsap
You know what, you guys are overracting. If it is soo dangerous to do taht, then why do some of you even keep them?


Good point Siretsap, but BW is really just preaching safety....which is honorable. We just don't see eye to eye on monkey-see monkey-do with venomous snakes. BW is very knowledgeable....if that is who your reply was directed at. BTW BW gonna be at Columbia?? Maybe I'll finally get to meet you. Looks like the whole SCR crew will be there.

[shaggybill]

I dunno guys, Im going to have to take Steves side on this.

Look what he probably did. How many thousands and thousands of housewives/gardeners watched this show who kill probably thousands of snakes per year between them out of fear.

When they saw Oprah handling the snake, it probably made them more aware that snakes CAN BE lived with. That you dont have to kill every one of them.

Although it was a deadly snake, do you really think Steve would have let her handle it if he hadnt had the situtation under control?Of course not. He was probably watching that snake like a hawk. There would be no way he would let her hold a grumpy cobra. Thats ******** to even think like that.

I'll just say that Steve is all about conservation. Everybody here knows that for a fact. I DO NOT believe that Steve did this for ratings. And I believe his effort was sincere.

Personally, I'm glad he did exactly what he did. It probably made who knows how many people realize that snakes and gators are not evil demons that must be killed upon sight.

[shaggybill]

Hmm...the bleeped word above was not a cussword. I guess this forum is quite politically correct.

[snakeprincess]

Hi all,

I'm totally new to this website and just loving it to death.

On this subject, I must agree with all the folks who are on Irwin's side. I believe he is very knowledgeable about all his animals (having been around them since his birth). He does take chances on his show, but he always cautions the audience not to try this at home. But no matter what he says, there will always be someone with no brain matter who will do it anyway. There is no way you can save these brainless people.

Thanks for letting me comment. You have a great site and keep up the great debates...............

Suzie

[BWSmith]

BW gonna be at Columbia??
Not this year (for once). I will be on my honeymoon the week before and funds will be too tight. But I will be setting up a venomous disply for the SHHS at Elachee Nature Center that Sat. So it is still a herp weekend and get to hang out with a couple hot herpers.

Look what he probably did. How many thousands and thousands of housewives/gardeners watched this show who kill probably thousands of snakes per year between them out of fear.
This may definately be one of many influences.

do you really think Steve would have let her handle it if he hadnt had the situtation under control?Of course not. He was probably watching that snake like a hawk. There would be no way he would let her hold a grumpy cobra.
No. Personally I do not see how you can have control of a situation without control of the snake. You cannot have control of the snake while someone else is holding it, plain and simple. I am sure the cobra spent some time int he icebox before the "stunt" to make it more lethargic. But under control? I cannot see it. Watching it is one thing, but being able to react from a sudden strike is another. What did he plan to do if it suddenly rode its body up? What if it struck and she freaked out and tossed the snake?

You know what, you guys are overracting. If it is soo dangerous to do taht, then why do some of you even keep them?
It is not a matter of them simply being dangerous. It is all metodology. That is my issue. His efforts may have been sincere, but it was a horrible lapse in judment and a VERY unnessesary risk.

During every episode, he says "I am a professional, don't try this". But he let someone with NO experience in snakes tail a cobra? Now what is his message?

[fatboy]

Elachee?? Where?

[Pixie]

No one knows exactly what security measures were taken when Oprah held the cobra. Of course it doesn't sound too good to let someone inexperienced do that but I have to believe that there were some hefty precautions taken.

We are talking about Oprah Winfrey here! Do you think he would have taken such a big chance with her? It would have been the biggest disaster possible having an accident happen at that moment. Therefore I have to think that there were some extreme safety measures taken even though they weren't necessarily visible to us through the lens of the camera.

Pixie

[python_diva_06]

THANK YOU SHAGGYBILL and SNAKEPRINCESS!!!! that's what i'v been trying to say!!!

[BWSmith]

No one knows exactly what security measures were taken when Oprah held the cobra.
I will grant that perhaps there were measures in place to protect the audience. There are NONE to protect Oprah (unless there was a sniper ready to fire at the slightest twitch of the cobra). How do I know this? Because none are visible. In order to be of any use, precautions have to within reach of the snake at all times. The only precaution is Steve getting bit rather than her if it decided to go awry. Even if by some miricle he WAS able to grab te tail from her mid-strike, the angle that he is at would put the snakes head closer to her when he snatched (which I doubt he could). Anyone who has worked with Cobras are well aware of how quickly they can climb thier body.

One thing I have just thought of this second as i was about to hit SUBMIT. Perhaps old Steve decided to use a venomoid this time. No proof or even rumors one way or the other, just throwing out a thought.

[enso]

LOL! BW Smith, i was thinking sniper when i read Pixie's post. The venomoid is damn possible.

[LadyHawke]

i do reptile shows for adults and children, i have had lots of children say to me that Steve says that you shouldn't touch wild/dangerous animals.
also would like to make this very clear, the media will not print stories that say "well Steve said it was dangerous so i wont touch it", they will print what sells, and those are the idiots that think they can without any prior knowledge.
so for every 100 who do touch cause they think they can, they will get press time....there are probably triple that or more then that who say leave it alone and are completely ignored. Stats are never acurate as they only report the ones that are endangered or hurt, and not the smart people. i am quite sure there is way more people that were in a situation with an animal and walked away because of Steve Irwin, but they go completely unrecognized

[BWSmith]

But would the idiots have still done it if Steve never got his own show?

But you are right about the media. That is why we have talked about numbers, not statistics. I want to see theheadline "Man keeps Venomous Snakes for 20 years without incident and educates thousands"

BTW: Good job on education. It is very rewarding.

[LadyHawke]

you get copy cats in everything!!
from books, tv movies and murderers!!
there is always gonna be someone who thinks they are superman, Indian Jones or even Patrick Purdy (heaven forbide....but he was copycatted as well)

yes i finally found my true calling......always knew it was with animals. and i love it so much, its not even like work, and i even do a lot of shows for free just to get the awareness out

[BWSmith]

But if you know that you are being mimicked, would it not be responsible to modify your methods?

[unBOAlievable]

but I have to believe that there were some hefty precautions taken.
Therefore I have to think that there were some extreme safety measures taken even though they weren't necessarily visible to us through the lens of the camera.

If he did take safety precautions, then why not show them instead of letting children think it is ok. yes I said children. Go to a school and do a reptile presentation every child there say's, are you like Steve Erwin. The majority of his shows are targeted to children, The adults only watch to see if he will get bit.

I do not believe children are stupid because they do not listen to the part "do not try this at home" they are kids and they are impressionable and Steve is a Role model, he is on lunch boxes to valentine cards. You just can't expect kids not to mimic t.v. This is not like common sense stuff for them, it is merely finding a snake in the yard, so how do you think they will pick it up.

just my way of looking at it

[LadyHawke]

what one person deems as responsible another would think he was crazy

[BWSmith]

But if safer methods are there, why not take precautions to lessen the danger, if not for you, then for those that emmulate you?

And yes, I get called crazy all the time for keeping hots ;)

Go to a school and do a reptile presentation every child there say's, are you like Steve Erwin

You are 100% correct. Happens every time.

[fatboy]

Tony-my brother. Someone always has to bring up kids. If they get bit their parents are responsible not Steve Irwin.

[fatboy]

Another thing right quick....on the Oprah "incident".....how many children watch Oprah. LOL :)

[LadyHawke]

To blame someone else for your own child's action is unbelievable!! Steve Irwin has one child that i am aware of that he is responsible for....and I have my own. if my son gets bit by a venomous snake that is my own bad parenting at fault and nothing else, all too often bad parents love to pass the buck so they cant be at fault.
moral is YOUR child YOUR responsibility

[BWSmith]

Noone is arguing that. I think the point is how much influence he has. And using that as an illustration.




I was trying to bring a specific Irwin situation to light and discuss it. But this is turning into the same old thing that we have all been through a dozen times. :mad:

[fatboy]

Can we agree that is a bad illustration?

[BWSmith]

no, I think it is very feasible.

[Pixie]

I will grant that perhaps there were measures in place to protect the audience. There are NONE to protect Oprah (unless there was a sniper ready to fire at the slightest twitch of the cobra). How do I know this? Because none are visible.

I am amazed that you are so sure that there weren't any security measures for Oprah. Just because they aren't the security measures YOU choose to imply with your animals, does not mean there weren't none in place.

Just because they weren't visible on camera doesn't mean they weren't in place. Also, I seriously doubt that Steve was the only person there to do animal safety and security, there must have been a few people of Steve's entourage there for that purpose alone.

As I said before, no one knows what security measures where taken unless they have contacted the Oprah show directly or Steve Irwin's crew.

I cannot conceive of no security measures being taken with Oprah herself! She is the richest woman in America and extremely popular, I doubt any risks were taken. If it wasn't on Steve's side, I can assure you that Oprah's producers or whoever made sure she wouldn't be in danger.

With that said, I will not deny the possibility of something having gone wrong. But I'm sure the program was carefully planned out when it came to the animals and people's safety.

As for education purposes, this is a touchy subject for me. People mentionned kids and how easily they are impressionable. Very true, I wont dispute that. But does that mean that every mention of reptiles on TV needs to be accompanied with the entire list of precautions? That would make a few nature programs pretty boring, IMO for some.

When it comes to child responsability, it always comes back to the parents IMO. If you're crazy enough to let your kid bring in a snake in the house without knowing what it is and it being potentially dangerous, I think the parents have the responsability over a show that showed someone with a dangerous reptile.

Pixie

[LadyHawke]

i agree with Pixie

[BWSmith]

I am amazed that you are so sure that there weren't any security measures for Oprah. Just because they aren't the security measures YOU choose to imply with your animals, does not mean there weren't none in place.
For her personal safety, if they are off camera they are usless. Plain and simple. If you know of safety precaution for preventing a bite to the person holding an adult elapid that can be done from 10 feet away, it would be great knowledge to share. I am unaware of any. Steve is the only thing there within reach of the snake. And I have already explained the logistical problems with that scenerio.

[unBOAlievable]

I do not think blame should be put on anybody. I teach my children that they have choices and that they are responsible for them. But kids are kids and most of the time they do not think of the outcome. What would it hurt if if steve used a hook and let them crawl across him a little less. I think it is great that he is showing people venomous snakes aren't out to kill you but sometimes you run across ones that aren't as passive.

My son spends nearly every day in detention, is it the teachers fault? No. is it my fault? No. It is his fault and he pays the price. We have showed him right from wrong and he chose to do the wrong thing, but he knew the difference.

Steve only shows one way, true he uses his disclaimer, but kids do not always listen and sometimes do the wrong thing. The kid is at fault if he/she handles a snake that way but the penalty could be death and children do not understand that.

[Pixie]

I understood what you said. I just find it a bit bold of you to assume that there weren't any proper security measures taken.

Like I said, just because they aren't the precautions you choose to imply with your animals doesn't mean there weren't any in place. Have you heard from the Oprah show or Steve to find out exactly what measures were taken????

Unless you did, I find it useless to judge what you saw on camera. In every show there is tons that happens out of view and is edited out.

Pixie

[Pixie]

Steve only shows one way, true he uses his disclaimer, but kids do not always listen and sometimes do the wrong thing. The kid is at fault if he/she handles a snake that way but the penalty could be death and children do not understand that.

WOW, I don't even know where to start with that one!!! So if my 9 year old got bit by a hot, I have no responsability in it???

That is unbelievable!!! Isn't it up to the parent to know where there kid is and what is he/she doing? I wouldn't let a child of mine or anyone else near a situation where he could potentially be bit by a hot. If he wants to see them that bad, that's what zoos are for.

We can't control every thing in our kids life but we do have control over who they hang with and where they go. Anyone that says otherwise needs to spend more time keeping tabs on their kid! I myself was quite a wild one when young and my mom hounded me constantly. I thank her IMMENSELY for the wonderful job she did keeping me out of trouble.

Pixie


__________________

[BWSmith]

Bottom line, due to the field of vision of the camera (neccessary to get Oprah, steve AND the entire snake in there), if it is off camera, it is useless in a strike to the handler. No grey area. No exceptions. It is very simple. If ANY seasoned hot keepers can tell me a method that would work from 10 feet away for a cobra turning on an inexperienced handler I will retract that statement (but I would be suprised).

[BWSmith]

I wouldn't let a child of mine or anyone else near a situation where he could potentially be bit by a hot.
Unfortunately you can only protect them so much. Acciedents do happen and they easy to overlook. We had a 5 year old die last year here in GA from an Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake in his grandparants back yard. Just an aside that you can't control everything :)

[Pixie]

Well, obviously if you live in an area where there are native venomoids it is a bit different! Parent's cannot prevent all accidents.

But if a kid got bit by a captive hot???

Pixie

[fatboy]

Originally posted by unBOAlievable
I do not think blame should be put on anybody. I teach my children that they have choices and that they are responsible for them.
My son spends nearly every day in detention, is it the teachers fault? No. is it my fault? No. It is his fault and he pays the price. We have showed him right from wrong and he chose to do the wrong thing, but he knew the difference.

The kid is at fault if he/she handles a snake that way but the penalty could be death and children do not understand that.

I like you Tony so I will be nice and just say this seems contradictory to me.

[Mustangrde1]

First of all I appologise to those who know me but after reading all this and seeing the pictures.I am about to go off. First to the subject that most sickens me{ VENOMOIDS} THIS IS A PURE ABOBINATION AND MUTILATION of wonderful animals Surgery preformed not by vets but backyard butchers. According to research im still performing 75% mortality durring surgery with 15% more withen 90 days post surgery.Yes I am still very much working on that law to outlaw them and gainning alot of support.Now On to the Gator I have to say sorry Brian but I have handled them saftly fresh wild but I do have experiance with large lizards and do understand them.Would I ever allow a person to get near one like Steve did NO WAY IN ******* HELL. It does not matter how tame/docile/placid an animal is especially an appex predator it can kill or mame what he did was irresponcible at best.As to Steve allowing her to free handle a cobra.She is inexperianced and no matter how fast Steve may have reacted he could not have prevent her being bit if that cobra had wanted to nail her. With all the good the Irwins have done for conservation and education what he did could have all been destroyed had Ophra been killed or severly injured.His actions were very irresponcible at best and his judgement in allowing someone with NO experiance in venomous reptiles to handle one was plain and simple stupid.I do not know what he was thinking but had an accident occured ALL reptile keepers would be looking at tougher more restrictive laws past on us.

[unBOAlievable]

I like you Tony
Was that a pickup line lol
I do not think blame should be put on anybody.
T his was refering to, if a child is bitten it is not Steves fault the child picked it up outside in the yard.
The kid is at fault if he/she handles a snake that way but the penalty could be death and children do not understand that.
Steve only shows one side of handeling venomous, kids have no idea what really happens if they are bitten and what the outcome could be.

and anyone that knows me knows my children never get near my venomous and they are in a seperate sealed facility

[fatboy]

No, sorry to crush your life long dreams but that for sure was not a pick-up line. LOL :) AND what venomous? That old copper won't hurt no one :)

[fatboy]

((Disclaimer)) Copperheads are very dangerous venomous snakes. Kids do not attempt to apprehend or handle them.

[BWSmith]

Well, obviously if you live in an area where there are native venomoids
uhhhh. THere is no such thing Pixie. It is VENOMOUS, Venomoid is a VERY different thing.


sorry Brian but I have handled them saftly fresh wild
Yup. Me too. I never claimed they were not often docile. I was not in the Gator/Croc debate :D

[zero_point_one]

Anyway, on the original topic. It really doesn't matter what show that Irwin went on and had the host handle a venomous snake. The host is not trained in the proper handling of hots. By doing such, Irwin is saying that anyone can go out there and handle them without incident. It is not proper education. If Irwin was in it for the purpose of education, he would not have let Oprah anywhere near the cobra. Everyone always says that he is out there for education and conservation, but all we see is the entertainment factors that he produces. There is very little education on his shows. He may be saying, "I am a trained professional and this should not be done at home," but what everyone is hearing is, "This is the most exciting experience of my life." Trained professional, my tushie. Irwin does not use proper handling techniques when he is on his show or any other. It doesn't matter who went on national tv and tailed a cobra, that should not be shown on tv.

As for the whole kids issue. My mother is terrified of both snakes and spiders. Would it be her fault if I was bitten by either? She certainly didn't keep them in the house and did everything she could to instill the fear into her children. That didn't stop me from going out and catching snakes. Would it be her fault if one that I caught was a cottonmouth and I sustained a bite? Kids do things regardless of what their parents teach them. Kids will mimic what they see on tv and they are mimicing Irwin on a regular basis. You don't hear stories about kids running out and buying a snake hook to be "Just like Jeff Corwin."

Irwin may be a trained professional, but he is not setting a good example. People do not mimic what they hear, but what they see.

[Gregg M]

Hey FatBoy...... I am glad you have such high regards for humanity, because I sure dont....... Most people are stupid..... The majority of snake bites are to the hand....... That tells me that alot of idiots try to pick up rattlesnakes......And to Siretsap, These animals are predictable huh???? Just wondering, do you keep venomous snakes????? I am guessing you do not...... So what do you know???? Like I said in another post...... I love when people that know nothing about hots, spit out false info about them...... Now I see how so many idiots get bit......

[Gregg M]

And about the precautions........ Like BW said if it is not in view it is useless...... Heck IMO if its not in your hand it is useless..... Hooks and grabbers are standard tools for handling venomous snakes and are used by huge majority handlers.......

[The_Omen]

Omen you are comparing apples and oranges by using Jackass

Nope.
Disproving your views that people do NOT do as they see in the many available forms of media.

They do.
'Life imitates art'

And Brian,
The only precaution I can think of from 10 feet away is to use a rubber snake to begin with cause even a scattergun in the hands of a pro is not a garauntee.

[Mustangrde1]

What was the topic originally about. I seem to have forgot with all the mudslinging and the I know more than you do comments.Instead of that whisch I careless about.How about getting back to the facts that a untrained , Unqualified person was put at risk in front of NATIONAL/ INTERNATIONAL audiance by a person who despite how anyone feals does influance millions of people.NONE OF US KNOW IT ALL OR ARE EXPERTS IN IT ALL.So lets get back to the topic at hand and try to educate and aid people instead of looking like children on a playground.

[fatboy]

I'll beat you to the swing:). Just kidding. I am done with this one.

[rwg]

Originally posted by BWSmith
But would the idiots have still done it if Steve never got his own show?


In my opinion some would. There are billions of people in the world. The VAST majority do not do incredibly stupid things. In this age of instantaneous global communication we hear about the handfull of idiots that do. Just do a search on "Darwin Awrds". People do stupid things with or without inspiration from television.

My daughter who is almost 4 years old watches Steve. She loves all the animals. She knows some are dangerous. She knows Steve is very good at his job, and that other people shouldn't do it. She knows that some snakes are venomous, and unless you know the difference you should leave all snakes alone. She's no rocket scientist, and yet she knows all this. If my 4 year old can be responsible in this respect why cant we start blaming the idiots for not having the sense of a 4 year old instead of blaming everyone else?

Many rational people think Steve is a nutjob. They will think Oprah was off her rocker to put her life in Steve's hands. They may even admire her nerve in doing so. They are not likley to find the nearest hot and grab it. This is my opinion.

rg

[SCReptiles]

We have taken up this issue before and I have been stead fast in my convictions of personal responsibility. But this case forces personal responsibility back on Steve in my opinion. If Oprah watched Steve handle a cobra and then she goes and tries it, I think Steve has no liability if she takes a bite. However, if Steve hands her the snake and she is bitten, I think he has to assume some of that liability. Let’s take electricity for example. I am very ignorant to electricity. If I watch an electrician do something, then I give it a try on my own, is that electrician responsible is I get shocked? Of course not! Now, if he tells me its safe and go ahead, and I get shocked…if I live I would turn this size 14 boot sideways and shove it directly up his rectum. What Steve did here was foolish. I am sure the snake was cooled, but that still does not neutralize the treat of that animal. If you have not worked cobras before, you can not understand the speed, strength, and agility of these snakes. In just a fraction of a second they can come over their body, with a lot of force. And take note of the studio audience. The front row does not appear to be more then 5 feet from this snake and I do not see any barriers between them. I know that I would not be sitting ideally by with an inexperienced handler working a snake of this size. Steve has the right to risk his own life and I defend that right, here even I feel he crossed the line.

[Mustangrde1]

Chuck first i would like to say it was a pleasure meeting you in Daytona. You appear to be a very educated person as well as extremely polite.Now back to Steve I am just curious what everyone thinks would have happened had that cobra managed to get loose from Ophra and in to the Audiance. Pretty much i would guarantee at least one bite if not multiple.He was not using common since or safty.

[SCReptiles]

Was also nice to meet you Scott. I see what you are saying on the audience. I would not want to be near if that thing got lose!

[Mustangrde1]

oh now come on we would all want to be there , after all whats that law again , I find it or i catch it i get to keep it lol

[Gregg M]

Yeah well I dont mess with cobras anymore........ So I would have hooked it to you Scott........LOL...... Like Chuck said you cant tell just how fast and strong they are........ Its like trying to hook a wet noodle with muscles........

[Aaron_S]

Pixie, why do you assume extra precaution was taken for Oprah by her staff? They are probably mis-led by Steve's show anyways and figured "Steve's there,she will be ok." Also maybe the producers WANTED Steve to let her handle the snake to get better rating that she did it.

[Bartman]

I dont think he did anything wrong at all. He probably loves reptiles and all animals for that matter more than all of us put together..i dont mean to speak for everyone here but his entire life revolves around the care of animals. All he ever does is make sure animal life is stable..he owns a zoo. I agree that it was pretty dumb to let her free handle a hot but im sure he knew what he was doing. Hes not some careless guy who doesnt know what hes doing. Yes i know, even if you know what your doing there could always be a mistake made (expecially with a hot) but im sure that oprahs staff was already informed on what could happen if she got bitten. I im sure they had antivenom, JUST incase anything happened. As aaron said it was forsure all done just to get ratings up even more.

[Mustangrde1]

He didnt do anything wrong ..... Holy **** He allowed an untrainned uneducated person to handle a very vast very deadly animal. No matter how many precautions he or the staff could have took,If that egyptian were to get loose it would have done damage. say it bit 3 people do you have a clue how much antivenom would be needed.He placed everyone at risk.What Steve does on camera in the wild is his bussiness if he wants to risk his life. However anytime you put the life or lives of others at risk that is stupid and criminal. I dont know ONE hot keeper that would allow a student they are teaching to work with any cobra without some time under their belts its called responcibility.Elapids are very fast very agile and very deadly I dont know how big that egyptian was but from the looks probably a 6 to 7 footer and it could bite and envenomate with every blow if it chose.

[SCReptiles]

I dont know ONE hot keeper that would allow a student they are teaching to work with any cobra without some time under their belts its called responcibility.
Yep, ask Joe Bradley what happened the first time he worked a cobra. Even after about a year of working with pit vipers. =)

[sapphire_moon]

There is always risk with wild animals.......ALWAYS
Leave the hots to the expierenced/ or in training people
Leave the large reptiles (crocs, gators, etc...etc...)
I can't help it if Steve Irins (sp?) tactics in dealing with hots, crocs and gatos differs from yours, so why down him because he deal with them difrently.
I'm sure oprah could have sued him if she WAS bit.
And yes steve irwin does always say "don't do this at home" etc...etc....infact I watched an episode the other day when one of his staff members got bit by a venomus snake and he moved him from hots to something else....infact he said that the rules were that if you got bit by a hot you got fired....but the guy didn't get fired he got.......de promoted I guess you would call it....

And again.........There is ALWAYS a risk with wild animals, no matter how tame, docile, or loving they seem to be.....as someone pointed out, dogs were once wild to. They turn on their owners just as much as gatos, crocs and snakes do......So there is always a risk, no matter the animal.

P.S......I do not mean to down any hot keeper, on this site or any where else. I have GREAT RESPECT and admiration for all RESPONSIBLE Venomos (sp???) keepers. I would never have the nerve to do what you do....

[SCReptiles]

so why down him because he deal with them difrently.
Because what he does affects us. New laws are going into effect all over the place. I believe venomous keepers are on borrowed time as it is and I want this time to last as long as possible. Many believe Steve is responsible if someone watches his show, then gets bit imitating him. I do not buy that for a second, but in this case if that cobra had spazed out, she would have dropped him and he would have been in the crowd. It would have been a public relations nightmare and served as fuel to the anti-venomous campaign. That is why we care!

[sapphire_moon]

I never said don't care.......I was responding to someone that said something about his handling techniques (sp?) on his own show...something about not using the proper equipment...I can't say I understand because I don't own venomous snakes. I do see how it affects keepers and I do agree that irresponsible handling of any snakes is what gets them banned....

[SCReptiles]

It is not an opinion or interpretation, it is a fact. I have posted numerous news reports and direct quotes verifying the impact on the general population. As far as the hobby, have you been following the market trends in venomous for the past 5 years? If you have, then it is VERY clear. Not much grey area.
Alright Smith, I am forced to call this one out for debate. Your claim is that venomous snake sells are at an all time high because of the Croc Hunter. I am not sure I agree with you. I can’t argue that the increased television exposure doesn’t help, but I don’t think it is the driving force. My minor was in economics and I fascinated by the field. There is an economic theory that says supply creates its own demand. I think the supply is higher now then it has ever been and that is the reason demand is the highest. You mentioned the figure of 5 years, if you start at 1998 that is about the time the internet became readily available to most people. Aspiring hot keepers had access to a supply for the first time. Basically before that, unless you happened upon a Glade’s or Gulf Coast list somewhere, you couldn’t buy hots even if you wanted to. So in 1998 the general public had a means to buy them, now 5 years later these people are breeding and producing more hots for the market. I doubt I can find research to back up my theory, but I think I can debunk yours. If your theory is true and there is increased demand for venomous snakes over the past 5 years because of Steve, then the demand for crocodiles would have also increased at the same rate. Based on my limited research and experience, I would say that the demand for crocs has gone down since the 1990’s. I would appreciate more input from people in this field. Has anyone noticed trends in the crocodile market? And has anyone seen the same results I have based on internet availability of venomous?

[BWSmith]

Good point Chuck. I defiantely will not hold any one factor responsible for the increase in hot keepers. But I definately think that he one of the major contributing factors. Availability is another HUGE one. I have noticed the same trend in crocs as well (of course I don't really deal with them so it hard to say for certain). Perhaps one reason is because people can keep a hot in a small room, a croc takes a much larger undertaking. I would be interesting to get some numbers from hot dealers on increased sales in the last 5 years.

Going back to the original topic. I just got on very reliable authority that Steve uses all venomoids for his presentations. I will email the source and ask if I can quote him.

[BlkMambaVenom]

Personally I dont think they would even allow Bubba on Oprah if they could not trust the croc. I do not think that Steve Irwin would put her life in jeopardy or anything. He may put his own life in jeopardy but not somebody else's. I just dont think he is that shallow. On the last episode of Croc Hunter, a guy got bit by a venomous snake...and it turned out to be a dry bite.... Once the guy returned back to work , Steve demoted him for not properly handeling the snake and getting bit. The guy now has to prove he can handle venomous snakes again. So, I doubt Steve would let Oprah be near a croc, if he knew the croc would go after her.
Brittany

[BlkMambaVenom]

In my reply I called it a Croc... sorry...Gator...lol... Sometimes i get them messed up.
Brittany

[SCReptiles]

I do not think that Steve Irwin would put her life in jeopardy or anything. He may put his own life in jeopardy but not somebody else's.
OK Brittany, take a look at the picture of Oprah holding that cobra. Now you tell me what happens if that snake comes over its body after her? Which that species can do in the blink of an eye. You tell me what happened if that snake starts thrashing and she lets go of the tail? It could be in the first row in less then a second. I normally defend the croc hunter with Brian goes after him, but hey, in this case old BW is right. That was ridiculously unsafe. He put his life, Oprah’s life, and the lives of the audience at risk here.

[Mustangrde1]

Did my eyes just see what I THINK THEY SAW. Did chuck agree with Brian lol. Chuck now BW will truly need to be under gaurded care.1st your tell him about a free handling article now you agree with him.OMG whats next cats and dogs living together.LOL.In all honesty I have to agree with Chuck as well and add this.No matter how docile you think an animal is,it has a mouth and it can bite.The day you take any wild animal for granted is the day your asking for major problems.

[Mustangrde1]

After much soul searching and deleberation and speaking with a friend on this issue I am about to post two seperate pictures of exactly what can and did happen with a cobra in a blink of an eye.As most Know I do not ever condone free handling and please make note of the hook in my hand BRIAN.

[Mustangrde1]

And this was in a blink of an eye after . now tell me how much danger was ophra not in and the audiance.

[The_Omen]

I have to ask..
Is that droplets of venom or did a total loss off control happen? :D

[cobraman]

Thats snake ca ca
Ray

[cobraman]

Actuall it is king cobra ca ca

[Mustangrde1]

If your reffering to my pants that was a king cobra that we had to probe andd it decided to s*** on me to show it disapproval

[krrc]

I dont know if anyone said this (I dident read all nine pages) but I talked to jim personaly and have met bubba personaly on two occations. Truse me if you dident know for a fact he was a live you could easly mistake him for stuffed. also jim told me that at one reptile show a man walked up and punched him in the face, hard. jim kicked the guy out but the croc dident move a musle. thats tame, a dog wouldnt let you get away with that. yet other than that steve was dumb.

[The_Omen]

hahaha, hard to tell with the graininess of the pic.
It looks like a spray of something, so I wasn't sure.

(didnt notice it in the first pic.....)

[Mustangrde1]

Ya kings do big poooo pooo you should have seen Rays flip flops.

[cobraman]

Having sold snakes to Steve for U.S. tv shows, I can tell you with near certainty that the cobra is probably a venomoid. ***NOTE- for the record, I no longer deal with venomoids)
Blessings
Ray Hunter

[krrc]

your saying steve has used venomoids?

[cobraman]

I know for a FACT that he purchased a venomoid King Cobra for a talk show in CA, then backed out and bought a hot one from us when the venomoid seller leaked the details on the internet. I know a couple of other trade secrets of his, but lets just leave it at that.
Ray

[Mustangrde1]

Krrc not only that but he likes to use an icechest to cool them down first before handling , They showed him actually doing that on the making of his Croc Hunter Movie

[krrc]

wow I use to have respect for him.. :(

[The_Omen]

Having sold snakes to Steve for U.S. tv shows, I can tell you with near certainty that the cobra is probably a venomoid.

Hmmm...
Still irresponsible to have shown the world the handling of and passing off to Oprah without stating 'This is an altered animal, it has been cooled to slow it down, please do not attempt this ever'

Or something along those lines.

And the voids issue is one that has crossed many minds when thinking of the Croc Hunter.

Also Ray, thanks for getting away from altered animals!

[cobraman]

Sorry to shatter your illusions :)

[cobraman]

It was NEVER my wish to deal with venomoids. It was part of a trade deal that I had very little to do with.
Ray

[The_Omen]

Yes, I know some of the details.
But it takes a lot to tell the boss you aint gonna do it anymore.

[Mustangrde1]

Omen are you saying you work for steve irwin?

[The_Omen]

Hehe.. no..
I meant Ray and his stance on voids and business.

Besides.. SI wouldn't want heated cobras or kraits tossed at him in the night... :D

[Al Cohallic]

Mustangrde1 is that monocled a venomoid? It sure looks like one when I blow that photo up!:confused:

[The_Omen]

As in how Al?
The pics way too grainy for that.
or do you have X-Ray glasses and see a duct job under all that snake?

[Mustangrde1]

No it was not . Ray took the picture and the snake took offence to his mug.

[The_Omen]

Hmmm...
My troll detector went off when Al had 4 posts under his wings...

[Al Cohallic]

Omen,
Do you really think somebody that is that f#@$ing stupid to free hand a Cobra with a hand that close to the head and take a pic of his stupidity?If you look at the 1st pic you can see sunken sides of the head where the glands sould be!!!!!!!!!!

[cobraman]

Omen, Obviously a fan of Scotts

[The_Omen]

Must be that Ray..
Do a search on his posts and you will see that the majority have been following Scott around just to attempt to give grief and start arguments...

Scott, who ya ticked off lately that's an AOLer?

It can't possibly be the free handling issue as Al wanted top see more free handling pics,

Quote -
Ray please post more freehandling pics.I need to inprove my technic.

From -
http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23976

[Al Cohallic]

My posts are not attempts to give Scott grief or anyone else for that matter.I just don't like when people LIE and misrepresent a animal.Sorry if all the Scott fans are sadden by this venomoid.You guys don't believe everthing you see on the web do you?I think we are all smarter than that.That pic just makes me question the truth.

[The_Omen]

Well, I blew it up as well, but as I said earlier, too grainy to tell.

[SCReptiles]

Do you really think somebody that is that f#@$ing stupid to free hand a Cobra with a hand that close to the head and take a pic of his stupidity?
Wrong, as usual, there are a plethora of pictures of people free handling cobras. How many pictures would you like to see?

[Mustangrde1]

Well, let me make this as simple as can possibly be. AL obviously has some sort of personal grudge against me. Personally I find it very humorous that someone would take the time to HARASS someone to this extent. It is no way bothering me However as it is clear Harassment AND A VIOLATION OF THIS SITES TERMS OF SERVICE. Best thing is to alert the moderators and allow them to do what is correct. I do believe with this Persons History trail of apparently coming after me on every possible chance it is a clear case of harassment. Then again what can you expect from an Alcoholic from Uranus. Please gentleman and Ladies I thank you for your support but giving this type of person any acknowledgment just fuels their fire and is nothing more than school yard games. So if we ignore him or her it will be gone, I am also sure that the moderators will make certain of that.

[SCReptiles]

But you seem to forget, I love this kinda stuff. You can puss out if you like and cry to the mods, in the meantime I’ll keep his feet to fire. Ha ha ha ha ha ha

[Mustangrde1]

Now back to the picture for anyone new please excuse the drunken ramblings that went on by a certain name and look at what the picture is .It is a demonstration to show how fast a cobra can come back upon itself and if wanting can bite.I was very lucky and i know it,apperently the man upstairs was letting me know I had gone to far and to remember these are dangerous animals.As you can see the hook was wraped by the snakes tail.Now i am experianced with cobras and that took me by complete suprise .So imagine if the big sgyptian ophra was holding decided to dso that I am certain she would not have been able to maintain her calm and may have flipped it in the audiance or herself paniced and been bit.Speaking of the audiance had that animal got loose wonder how many would have been trampled running for a exit.

[SCReptiles]

wonder how many would have been trampled running for a exit.
I hadn’t considered that! You are right, imagine a few people the size of BW getting trampled by a few the size of fatboy. I would rather take my chances with the snake. Ha ha

[Mustangrde1]

Chuck, who was it that was building those cages up by you.My wife and I are looking to start building some of our own and I would love to get some advice on how to make your own.

[SCReptiles]

His name is Anthony Gay. He is quite the craftsmen and also a venomous keeper, so knows what is needed. He had a website, but he took it down for some reason. I don’t want to post his person email of phone number on there, but I don’t think he would mind you having it. I’ll PM it to you. Getting him to return calls is like pulling teeth. Ha ha!

[Mustangrde1]

Thanks Chuck.

[BannedAlCoholic]

My Last post before being banned again for not being in the "WE LOVE SCOTT" click.

Look at the difference of how Bud is holding the King Cobra, and how Scott is....The King's mouth is not one inch from his hand. With Scott's venomoid that does not make a difference, but when he is pretending it is hot, it does. If Chuck or Ray would have posted that same pic they would have been ragged on by all of you. Instead you cry to the mods and get me kicked off for posting an objective view. There have been a lot more offensive posts than mine, and they were not booted off. Whatever!!! Enjoy Scotts mother goose tails ya'll

[BannedAlCoholic]

OK, I promise, last post!!!
Scott, Help me understand.... You say it is a hot cobra, not a venomoid (as your stance on venomoids is clearly noted), yet, you do not have a venomous permit to have a hot cobra, yet you posted that Ray does not allow others to handle carelessly or free handle at his facility, so it could not be that you are at Ray's handling a real hot. Hmmm, Something is missing here. You and Ray both have gone on record as saying that Ray lets NOBODY handle his venomous, and certainly not free handling an unaltered cobra. Ray, please correct me if I am in error here. So something just does not add up here. Help me understand this so I can apologize to everyone, and start eating my "Crow" sandwitch.
Before you all start just slamming me for pointing this out, please read this with an objective mind, and encourage Scott to give his answer instead of just evading the questions. You all be the judge of his lies. It is haed to explain his claim to have all these hot snakes in Florida without even having the license. He may be working with Ray to get his hours for the permit, but Ray and Scott say that Ray does not allow ANYONE to free handle at his place, so either he is breaking the law, or lying again.
Sorry to piss on your parade, but I can't stand a liar.

Banned for not buying Scott's B.S.

[SCReptiles]

As for the permit, under FL law I do not think a distinction is drawn between a hot and void snake. I do not think you can keep a void w/o the permit. I was under the impression Scott was permitted, but I actually am not sure on that one. And don’t get confused, he and I disagree more then we agree. I just happen to think you were wrong in this issue. Quit dicking around and get yourself un-banned and we’ll finish the debate!

[truth]

Chuck under FL state law to possess a venomoid you must have a permit. Venomoids are considered the same as venomous in most states.
I hope to stay un=banned this time, so I will leave out you-know-who's name. I am not trying to be a jerk, but the whole thing just did not make any sense to me, and instead of helping me understand, he just gets the mods to kick me off. As I said, I have seen a lot worse posts that did not result in the poster getting banned. I can't see what I wrote that was so bad that I get bumped off. And the mods never posted anything like a warning to me, they just bumped me at his request, I guess. I am not trying to start trouble, or trolling. There is a lot worse written about Steve Irwin by many people (including "him") yet thier posts are not deleted, and those expressing thier views are not bumped off this site. Seems like an unfair judgement to me. I am not going to stir up any trouble this time, so lets see if he has me bumped again. Hopefully the mods will read this and be more fair (let me know if I am in violation of any rules, and I will correct these violations). The point I was making was simply that the snake MUST have been a venomoid, or he would not have been handling it in that mannor, and let it get that close to his hand. There is nothing wrong with having a venomoid, if he so chooses, but it was ironic to see him holding one after he posted so strongly against venomoids. Regardless, it must not even be his animal, because Tallahassee claimes he does not have a permit to have venomous snakes in Florida. His point about the snake being able to strike back quickly, was a good point, and would have been effectively demonstrated with the pic regadless of if it is a hot cobra or a venomoid. There was no need to lie about the cobra being hot, the point was a good one, and well demonstrated in his pic. since he is obviously not going to explain himself, we can just let it go, and people can form thier own opinions, or believe whatever they want. I just wanted him to clearify for us. No hard feelings, all.

[truth]

I just wanted him to clearify for us

If anyone has a opinion on this matter. please don't be afraid to vocie your opinions.Iwould like to hear them.I'm the only one who gets kicked off for doing that.

[Matt]

Originally posted by truth
I'm the only one who gets kicked off for doing that.

so, your a banned member that had re-registered?

[Shane Tesser]

the "Truth" is you have been banned from the site from harassment, twice. I advise you to read the TOS because your unwanted posts are now considered spam. Drop the subject, nowone cares but you. If you want to post feel free, if you wish to continue to harass, then we can take this a step further.

[SCReptiles]

In the interest of simplification, let’s keep this debate centered in the Venomoid thread Truth started.
http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24194

[truth]

Chuck, Please check out my Home Page by clicking on "WEBSITE" button above in this post. That is me holding a super tame green mamba.

[The_Omen]

Odd...

I clicked on the site link and I found what appears to be either Mustangrde1s' site, a site thrown together with 'borrowed' pics or that Al/BannedAl/Truth and M1 are one and the same....

For Truth, ya really don't have many straight answers.

[Scales Zoo]

I have been disappointed in the croc hunter, to the point of being annoyed at the shows, and have stopped watching it.

A cousin of mine is the John Deere International representative in Australia. He has been to the Australia Zoo to watch the croc presentation, and said it is like the WWF wrestling in the USA, but toss a croc or 2 into the mix to add to the excitement.

Whenever I hear Steve say "I am a professional" I finish the sentence for him by saying "JACKASS!"

Too bad that title was already taken when he made his movie

Sheila

[SCReptiles]

AL, Banded, Truth, looks like they nailed you again. Sorry to see you go a third time, I still would have liked to get to the bottom of your problem with Scott, but oh well. So, back to what started this all, from Scott’s pics, Brittany, can you see how it is very dangerous to let an inexperienced handler hold a cobra by the tail?

[Scales Zoo]

A woman from Australia who is visiting in Canada met with us at the Red Deer show. She held the burmese python, and shared some info on her collection of diamon and jungle carpet pythons, as well as taipans and king browns. She was interested in attending our fall snake count, and expressed her desires to pick up a rattlesnake in her bare hands.

I am not sure how much she knows about pit vipers, but should she attend this event and reach for a rattler with her bare hands, I will personally smash her knuckes with a snake hook.

Sheila

[cobraman]

Omen, That IS Scott's site, and Truth had no authorization to post it, nor did he have my permission to post my cobra pic (with mouth open) from a kingsnake ad of mine. Scott has been advised to refrain from any posting untill further notice. The green mamba on his site is a venomoid that he bought for educational reasons. He does work with me in my venomous room, and is qualified to do so. Posting that site of Scott's was a lame way of trying to embarrass Scott because of Scott's current stance on venomoids.
Blessings all,
Ray Hunter

[cobraman]

ADDENDUM TO ABOVE POST


Scott no longer has ANY venomoids, they were sold to other people for educational purposes. He is still working on legislation to ban venomoids.

ps to Chuck- Scott says he is a Republican

[SCReptiles]

Whatever he has to tell himself! Ha ha. As I have stated before: “for the children” is the Democrat battle cry!

[Dozer]

SC,

C'mon man, whenever you're gonna kick the **** outta anyone... not mentioning any names... at Daytona... or where ever... dude, video tape it, your huge :D

Best regards...

Mike

[Mustagrd2]

Hey,What the hell happen to my thread?

[cobraman]

I'm sure it is with the others!

[Mustagrd2]

I'm getting the feeling people don't like my free handling on my "WEBSTITE"

[cobraman]

Looks like someone elses website to me!!!

[cobraman]

Why don't yu and I go into the chat room and discuss this a bit?

[Mustagrd2]

I wanted to show my 1987 4cyl mustang,but I have to many free handling pics!

[cobraman]

I guess not, Huh?

[Mustagrd2]

I don't do chats,Ray

[Mustagrd2]

If you want to have a free handling contest. I will win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[cobraman]

you gotta be kidding!!!

[Mustagrd2]

Remember I know the trade secrects.

[Mustagrd2]

"TRADE SECRETS"when I take pics of venomoids it almost look real!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mustagrd2]

If I buy a venomoid king corbra will people be able to tell?

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

BWSMITH:

Nice post there. I love Steve but man he makes things look really at times......lol.

Cya...

Tony

[Mustagrd2]

I would like to use the king for my shows.

[cobraman]

I thought you did not like chats..... what do you call this childishness??? What is your point to all this stuff????

[cobraman]

Jason, take this to the chat room instead of ruining a good thread with all this silly crap of yours

[Mustagrd2]

Well,I'm trying to show my trade secrets.So people know that Steve is being safe around Opra.

[cobraman]

I see. Well that point was made by myself quite a few pages ago on this thread. Do you really feel the need to copy me (not to mention pics I posted on one of my Kingsnake ads), or Scott and his home page???

[Mustagrd2]

What are you talking about Ray?You took the pics!!!

[cobraman]

My point exactly! I took the pic of the monocle cobra with it's mouth open, and posted it on a kingsnake ad of mine, and you copied it and posted it to get at Scott. Then you posted his home page as if it is yours, to make fun of him because he has pics of himself holding venomoids. Everyone is on to your game. Grow up, and start posting productive posts.

[Mustagrd2]

They wear really venomoids?I had no idea that they wear.Was the monocled a venomoid also?

[cobraman]

nice try!

[Mustagrd2]

So I will take that as a yes.I need to go feed my venomoids.When they are hungry they can become very dangerous!

[Mustagrd2]

DO NOT try to free hand them when hungry.Again be safe Do not for any reason free hand them at this time!

[cobraman]

Dude, GROW UP!!!!

[cobraman]

Either go to the chat room, call me , or just knock it off. You are going to ruin a good thread (like you care). I'm out of here.... finish this in the chat room, or just forget it. Either way, GROW UP!

[Scales Zoo]

I think we may need a private argument forum, this thread WAS about Steve Irwin.

Just about the time I think we may get a discussion about Steve, it turns into personal bickering. Whats up with that???

Just a suggestion, but could we try to stay on the subject of Steve Irwin, regardless of our opinions of him, or pick up the phone or go to private email to resolve your personal disputes?

I thought this forum was intended to teach us about captive venomous keeping, not how to bitch and banter.

My 2 cents,
Sheila

[Matt]

well guys....with over 2 hundred replies, this thread has been pretty prolific. However, its turned into something it wasnt intended to be, bickering brought on by a member banned a number of times.....so Im going to close it to any further replies, sorry!

thxs for participating!