Purpose of Having Venemous Snakes? [Archive]

BWSmith

08-19-03, 07:55 AM

Why do we keep venomous snakes? That question is not as clear cut as you may think. Venomous snakes are one of the most feared and misunderstood animals on the planet. There is no doubt that they are very dangerous creatures. So are big cats, bears, raptors, sharks, and the list goes on. I think the question would be more suited to say "Why keep them privately?" than "Why keep them in your ouse?". This encompases most of us. But you rarely see these other predators in private care. Why are the snakes kept privately and big cats are not (to the same extreme). The long and short of it is that they CAN. Snakes are much more condusive to private ownership than bears, for example. So now that we have established that the logistics of keeping venomous is much more viable than other "dangerous" animals, it should be easier to understand. There are tousands of people around the world that work with dangerous animals. Yes, some are cocky thrill seekers. But many have a true love and fascination of the creatures. There are people that will spend their entire life studying snails or a plant. I cannot understand the fascination, just like most cannot understand mine. It is difficult to explain. They are so different from nonvenomous. It is like adifferent world. They require a different mindset, discipline, and knowledge. They require you to learn as much as possible. Husbandry is just one small aspect of venomous herpetoculture. Most hot keepers I have met have knowledge of venom and envenomation than a hundred doctors. it is neccessary to safely care for them. Most keepers have probably tousands of dollars worth of specialty caging and equipment. The entire room is generally modified. When you walk into the Hot Room, your mindset has to change. Great knowledge has been gained from private keepers. Private collections boast species that are rarely found in zoos or are disappearing from the wild. Many keepers take every opportunity to educate the public about the beauty and neccessity of venomous snakes. I would venture to say that 90% of venomous displays at nature centers and the like are from private keepers. I display at numerous "Snake Days" each year. It is generally myself and a couple other private keepers. It is not like going to a zoo. Here they get the opportunity to see them closer and actually speak to experienced herpers and ask questions. Far more informaive than any zoo, and far more effective for conservation. We, as venomous keepers, have passion for the animals condemned by society and humanity. We admire their majesty and power. We take the risks we do (and accept those risks) because it is something we feel we have to do.

Venomous herpetoculture is not hobby, it is a way of life.

fatboy

08-19-03, 08:34 AM

BW that almost brought a tear:). Truthfully, well said.

chas*e

08-19-03, 05:26 PM

Venomous animals(snakes) are just another "wonder".... good for some and not others.......most are not any more dangerous than a grown Retic or a Burmese Python .....

Mustangrde1

08-19-03, 06:42 PM

Well i think brian just said it all, what happened to the short post brother.

little_dragon_

08-19-03, 07:38 PM

I understand now, I have loved reptiles my whole life.
They are very misunderstood creatures. And most people are terrified of the unknown.
So what kinds of venemous snakes do you all have?

reptilesalonica

08-20-03, 01:44 AM

I keep a Taylor's cantil and the Greek viper-longnose horned viper "Vipera ammodytes".
Photos on my gallery and more on my website.
Now searching for Atheris squamiger or chloroechis...but...here in Greece it's a daydream... :(
~Greg~

Zoe

08-20-03, 01:48 AM

most are not any more dangerous than a grown Retic or a Burmese Python .....

Really? I find that hard to believe...

T.O-SK8TER

08-20-03, 02:16 AM

Pythons and boas are lythargec and dont usualy defend themselves unless neccessary, most venemous snakes are agile and will attack if thought to be threatened. I may have a chance at stopping a python from constricting me but a bite from a venemous snake would kill me if not treated. Thats why I think pythons are less dangerous!

fatboy

08-20-03, 07:02 AM

Originally posted by little_dragon_
So what kinds of venemous snakes do you all have?

My personal collection is a Black Timber rattlesnake, 2 Pigmy rattlesnakes, Eastern Coral Snake, and a Southern Copperhead.

Gregg M

08-20-03, 07:07 AM

Zoe and T.O.SK8TER, you guys are missing the point....... They can be less dangerous if they are kept by an experianced keeper...... Boas and pythons do not defend theselves... Hahahahaha...... I have seen some huge constrictors that want nothing more then to bite down on anything that gets near it..... Venomous snakes do not attack people........ They defend themselves against stupid people....... And most will put up a huge display before resorting to bitting...... (ie; Rattles, hoods, mouth gapping, hissing, scale rubbing, spitting.......) I love when people who do not know a thing about venomous snakes give facts that are more like fiction......

Samba

08-20-03, 11:10 AM

Well, I'm just gonna skim through the replies here, but speaking for myself... keeping hots, if and because you fancy them as beautiful animals, is no different than keeping a large constrictor or 'dangerous' dog. Any animal has the ability to hurt you, even kill you.

Personally, when I kept the few hots that I've had, it was strictly an interest in the animal itself... it had nothing to do with being venomous... I tend to collect pets that I find attractive and personable. I do agree, however, that keeping hots should be done by experienced persons. These aren't pets for everyone, obviously. There is not a distinction for me. Why keep fish? That's what I want to know! J/K

BWSmith - Another brilliant post! Thank you!

BWSmith

08-20-03, 11:12 AM

Thank you Samba. I actually like when threads like this arise from time to time. It gives everyone a chance to step back and look at themselves and their own driving forces. Often we answer the same questions so many times that they become cookie-cutter answers.

Mustangrde1

08-20-03, 03:32 PM

Ok why keep venomous snakes . venomous dont hunt people, however the big 5 constrictors have been know to attack and even hunt down a human which they interpit as prey. All animals are to some degree dangerous even my Golden retriever who is as dumb as crissy on {three's comapny}. I am sure he can bite if he could only figure out how.Then again he would need to get off the couch and stop watching tv first. Venomous with proper care and caution are just as safe to keep as the big constrictors.The most dangerous animal on earth is Man and yet some of us have teens the most deadly animal know in the universe. Sorry had to add a little light humor to this.

Pixie

08-20-03, 03:58 PM

however the big 5 constrictors have been know to attack and even hunt down a human which they interpit as prey

The only large constrictor ever to have this rep is the green anaconda and it still isn't proven. On the same token, the same was said of one species of venomoid (African I believe) which was also disproved.

Both giant constrictors and venomoids can be deadly. The one big difference I make is that there is a bit more room for error with a giant constrictor. For example, if you get constricted you can have others help you out of the situation. If you get bit by a hot, it doesn't matter if there is a dozen people with you to help, you are in desperate need of medical attention.

Deaths from giant constrictors average 1 human death/year in the U.S. How many die from hot bites??? I'm sure it's more than one.

Pixie

BWSmith

08-20-03, 05:49 PM

Both giant constrictors and venomoids can be deadly.
uhhhhh, I think the word VENOMOUS is the one you were looking for. Unless the surgury is botched ot the glands or ducts grow back.

The only large constrictor ever to have this rep is the green anaconda and it still isn't proven. On the same token, the same was said of one species of venomoid (African I believe) which was also disproved.
I think that you are talking again about venomous. Except there is no hot that is capable or has ever been attributed to consuming a human. But an African Rock Python ate a child last year. Confirmed.

Deaths from giant constrictors average 1 human death/year in the U.S. How many die from hot bites??? I'm sure it's more than one.
About 5 last statistic I saw.

Mustangrde1

08-20-03, 07:47 PM

Fact Australian Amethestine python has attacked humans and in fact in a well documented attack one came through a window in to a house killed the family dog then attack a young child this was with no doubt to feed. Fact Indian Rock pythons have attacked numerous people walking along trails this animal can and does kill people..Fact retics do also hunt and would concider a human as prey there are numerous reports of this every year.This is not about captive animals but wild ones. I know of numerous attacks by the large constrictors on there keepers.Unfortunately some were fatal.If one of these large animals gets out one night while your sleeping and it is hungry it can and might decide to attack. If it does who you going to call.Dont get me wrong i keep some very large constrictors but i also am fully aware of the dangers and do keep them in locked cages and never work with them alone.

Bryce Masuk

08-21-03, 12:56 AM

With every animal there is a degree of stupidity allowed and vens just dont allow nearly any Personally i am tired of peopleasking this kind of a question for nearly all people the reason will be slightly different what does it really matter what it is

T.O-SK8TER

08-21-03, 01:39 AM

Gregg I love the fact that you think Zoe and I know nothing about venemous snakes. I said a large constrictor will not defend themselves unless nessessary, not that they will not defend themselves at all. I think you took the word attack out of context, I did not meen that venemous snakes hunt humans down. I was saying if you piss them off in any way they will attack. Heve you ever been bitten?

reptilesalonica

08-21-03, 02:40 AM

I will speak for myself. I keep venomous and a small (for now) giant, an albino burm which is 2,20.
I find more difficult to feed my burm than to feed my venomous snakes.
To feed my burm, i have to take him out of his cage and to put him in a large cage, those with plastic bottom for rabbits.
He has learn that when he is in that cage, that will get food and just by opening the door of the rabbit cage, he goes like mad in every movement around him (my hands).
I do every trick i can but sooner or later i'll get that bite...
Consider that he's only 2,20 m long...
Like others said, every animal is dangerous.
Man can find the ways to confrontate every animal, but unfortunately he will difficult could save his own kind.
Mistakes make the humans and not the animals that lives with them...
~Greg~

Zoe

08-21-03, 03:38 AM

Well Gregg that's like saying that ETBs are as easy to keep as BCIs. ETBs are just as easy if you have the right cage, temps, feeding regimen etc. Or that a dog is more dangerous than a tiger, because if you know how to work with a tiger you won't get attacked.

I love when people who do not know a thing about venomous snakes give facts that are more like fiction......
When did I do that? I just said I found it hard to believe that venomous snakes and burms are on the same difficulty level. Is that fiction, or would you say a burm keeper is fully prepared to keep an eyelash viper? Gregg, on occasion I post in the ven forum to ask a question or participate in a debate, you always resort to "i know about hots and you don't so don't even bother posting". I'm not saying you DONT know hots, and that I DO, but there are different ways to discuss than making people like unwanted, inexperienced idiots, and that because you keep hots there is nothing left in the world for you to learn.

Zoe

Bryce Masuk

08-21-03, 04:01 AM

Either way if your stupid with a burm or a ven you will die burms just happen to be logs 90% the time but if it wants to eat you you need to know how to deal with it

I dont think gregg even said you would manage a burm like you would like any hot becuse you dont.... a burm is big and powerful while hots are small fast so if your qualiflyed to manage one you may not be able to do the other. 90% of the people who own burms shouldnt have them but burms are everwhere like rats and hots not so much or at least in canada.

Large boid's IMO are More dangerous then hots because with hots you have anti venom and there is no magic stuff in a vile to fix you after a retic stops your heart from beating. its also much harder to stop a 200+ pound snake from moving at you while most hots are much smaller then that so it takes more caution but less muscle if you know what your doing you will be fine either way

Comparing handling hots and handling Large boid's is stupid they are completely different tasks one is like driving a race car and the other is a dump truck they are no where near the same thing

The reason people dont want to explain about hots is because you have to watch someone handle a hot in front of you before you have a real grasp of what hots really are and they are beyond words

reptilesalonica

08-21-03, 04:27 AM

Comparing handling hots and handling Large boid's is stupid they are completely different tasks one is like driving a race car and the other is a dump truck they are no where near the same thing
I believe comparing is fair because i own both snakes and i had to care for them.
Since i care for them and feed them, i bring my experience with each one. I agree with you about the giant boids. Exactly, when a giant boid is going to bite you then there's nothing you can do.
And NOT always someone has the time to pass by your house and help you with that giant since you have to feed and care for that giant every three days or so. On the other hand, GreggM is right but didn't express it well. All you that you don't own a venomous snake and don't know it's differencies from the non-venomous snakes, simply you DON'T know...and this is the truth.
To me, venomous snakes are just like corn snakes.
Which is easier to keep and care, giant boids or cornsnakes?...
~Greg~

Gregg M

08-21-03, 11:30 AM

Zoe, I was not refering to you in that post....

Zoe

08-21-03, 11:53 AM

Ah... I thought you were, because you started the paragraph with my name.

BurmBaroness

08-21-03, 05:56 PM

I fail to see any comparison between keeping large boids and hots. Now, I don't keep hots, and don't have the desire to do so, but I do have a fairly large burmese, who I realize could hurt me, but it's not the same. Sure, there is antivenin for MOST venomous snakes, but so they have it at the hospital near you? If it has to be flown in, and you were bitten by something with a very fast acting neurotoxin, would it be fast enough?? I personally wouldn't want to have to find out. I'll take the giants anyday, thanks.

Now, to the ven keepers: I highly respect what you do. I know BW Smith, and he is very comitted to education, and the conservation of these awesome animals. I have seen pics of his hot room, and have friends who have been there. He defines a responsible, mature ven keeper, and it IS his way of life. I don't know you other guys, but most of you seen also to have the right reasons for keeping vens. They are (awesome is the only word I can think of) animals, and It's great that these guys keep them for the right reasons. Hats off, guys!

reptilesalonica

08-21-03, 08:39 PM

Very well and clear said BurmBaroness!http://www.esoterica.gr/forums/icon_smile_approve.gif
I love both giants and hots but hots is a deep love!...
The reasons are many.
Hots are far more beautiful than all other non-hot snakes.
Hots has great colors
Hots has large flat heads with corners on their faces and slender necks...i can observe this for many hours because i like very much this characteristic on most venomous snakes :)
Hots have different tactics on prey hunting...observing them doing that you can only thank God that this magnificent creature lives in your home...
That's why all my life was full of animals...i live in an appartment in a city.
Keeping these magnificent creatures there's a nature's part always with me...
This gives me a reason for living...http://www.esoterica.gr/forums/icon_smile_shy.gif
~Greg~

lakeridgekennel

08-21-03, 09:01 PM

i only have one hot and i love her. Don't get me wrong if she had the chance she would take my head off. I still lover her. That hole thing about the proper tools that is so true it's not even funny. i have had my rattle snake for 5 years now and i have never been bit and that's because i have the proper snake hook and i wear gloves you can never be to careful. that's just my two cents

lakeridgekennel

08-21-03, 09:09 PM

I keep a western diamond rattle snake and my dad a 3 and a baby albino cobra and a king cobra and a red spitting cobra. i hate the cobras they are so mean and never give up

Gregg M

08-22-03, 09:21 AM

Cobras are not my thing either....... Just not into them like I am my vipers...... Puff adders can be just as slippery as a cobra and alittle more pissy in my opinion....... My big female is alittle on the nippy side....... She would be cute if she did not have venom glands the size of my thumb in her head....... Nothing fun about having a 4 ft puff striking at you when you open the cage....... She is a handful but she is awsome........

Invictus

08-22-03, 11:17 AM

Ok, I have to call bull$h!t here.

I honestly can't believe what I'm reading in this forum. How can you hot keepers even BEGIN to compare the danger of owning hots to the danger of owning large boids, or even worse, say that the boids are MORE dangerous????? Sure, if a large Afrock decides to constrict you, pray to whatever diety you believe in. But consider the LIKELIHOOD of a boid attack versus the likelihood of a bite from a hot. Boid attacks are VERY rare. In some species like African Rocks, they are more likely than in Boa Constrictors, but are still exceptionally rare. Even with the attacks that do occur, 99.99999% of them are just a bite and release. A boid actually going so far as to constrict and kill a human is extremely rare, and the cases of a boid eating a human are unheard of except for ONE confirmed case.

Secondly, claiming that boids have been proven to pursue humans is a lie. Plain and simple. There is one snake and one snake only on this earth that has been proven to pursue victims, whether that be food or threat, and that is the Black Mamba. BMs have been known to pursue their prey for several kilometers. Boids have NEVER been proven to pursue humans. We are not in their natural diet. They attack when threatened, and that's IT.

If your hots are less dangerous than a large boid, why don't you all free handle them? I can free handle large boids, and do you know why? Because they are FAR less dangerous than hots!

If you free-handle a hot, you are GUARANTEED to get bitten. Thus, hots are more dangerous. PERIOD.

Reptilesalonica, your response pissed me off more than anyone's here. For you to compare hots to cornsnakes is so ignorant it's outright infuriating. I don't need snake hooks to handle my corns. If my corns bite me, I laugh at them. I bet you can't say the same for your hots now, can you? How dare you compare the two. If you've decided you love your hots more than your giants, that's fine. But comparing them to cornsnakes is just plain ignorant.

Attitudes like this are the reason why in many places in Canada, Joe Schmo has been told that his boa constrictor is illegal, while his next door neighbor gets out the snake hooks to clean the cage of his Inland Taipan. This garbage has to stop. Your hots are way more dangerous than the most dangerous boid on earth, and if you don't believe me, go ahead and free handle your venemous. If you're not willing to do this, it must be because they are more dangerous, isn't it?

Sorry if I sounded too harsh here, peeps. I'm not holding any personal grudges here, I just tend to rant very strongly. :)

reptilesalonica

08-22-03, 12:17 PM

Sorry if I sounded too harsh here,
Yeah, you did!
But i'm not holding any personal grudges either, because...
'
All you that you don't own a venomous snake and don't know it's differencies from the non-venomous snakes, simply you DON'T know...and this is the truth.
'
I don't know about Black Mambas. If that is true that pursue humans, someone who is more on Mambas can reply on this.
'
I don't need snake hooks to handle my corns. If my corns bite me, I laugh at them. I bet you can't say the same for your hots now, can you?
If you free-handle a hot, you are GUARANTEED to get bitten. Thus, hots are more dangerous. PERIOD.
Sorry to disapoint you but my hots are tamer than my albino burm. (And i handle him every 3 days).

If you had a giant snake you would know that you cannot handle it like your corns.
The same is with hots and the hooks.

Giants need more than one person to handle.
Hots need a hook to handle

Knowledge is the key to unlock any fear...
~Greg~

Invictus

08-22-03, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by reptilesalonica
If you had a giant snake you would know that you cannot handle it like your corns.
The same is with hots and the hooks.

No, I do not happen to have in my possession a giant snake. I do have a baby that will turn into one, but that's not the point here. You're using pathetic means (the good ol' 'yeah well, you don't own one, so you don't know' B.S.) to justify your standpoint that hots are less dangerous than boids.

Added to which, I have been exposed to large boids my whole life, and have been handling them since I was a child. So don't act like I somehow don't know what I'm doing with large snakes. Especially because, And I'm sorry to say this pal, the ONLY difference with handling is their size. That's IT.

Giants need more than one person to handle.
Hots need a hook to handle

Wrong. Giants shouldn't be handled by one person. I know MANY people who handle their giant snakes alone, and have never been struck at. I don't know anyone who free handles their hots who hasn't been struck at. Why? Because boids are not as dangerous. They are not as aggressive, and the odds of them attacking are slim to none. Prove me wrong.

Knowledge is the key to unlock any fear...

Then how about sharing some knowledge instead of spreading more lies about boids? And as for this quote:

All you that you don't own a venomous snake and don't know it's differencies from the non-venomous snakes, simply you DON'T know...and this is the truth.

Ok, we may not all be experienced hot keepers, but we're not morons either. This quote is just another classic example of hot keeper elitism. You somehow think that just because you have a hot, you're SO much more knowledgable than anyone else who observes from the outside. The bottom line is this: I can free handle my giants. You can't free handle your hots. And you're saying this makes your hots less dangerous? Well, I'm sorry. You're wrong. You free handle, you WILL be bitten. I free handle, there is an extremely small chance that I will be bitten. Ergo, your hots are more dangerous than giants.

As I said above, prove me wrong. And please, do better than "You don't own one, so you don't know."

Ask yourself this. Let's say you had to choose between one of the following:

1) Standing next to a huge bomb that has a one in a million chance of going off or:
2) Standing next to a landmine that is GUARANTEED to go off if you breathe on it wrong,

Which would you say is more dangerous?

I understand and strongly admire the courage of hot keepers. But just because your personal confidence with hots is higher does not mean they are less dangerous. You are letting your personal opinion cloud the FACTS, and the FACT is, hots are far more dangerous, and far more likely to cause you injury or death.

Gregg M

08-22-03, 02:39 PM

Invictus, I cant speak for all, but what I was getting at is........
If the hots are kept by responsible, experianced keeprs, then they are really not as dangerous to keep as some non hot keepers think...... NOT saying that it can be done by anyone that likes reptiles....... Freehandlers do not fall under reponsible keepers in my book and many others....... They are in a league all their own.......

Invictus

08-22-03, 02:55 PM

I couldn't agree more, Gregg. And I have every confidence in the world that most of the hot keepers on this site have a VERY good idea of what they are doing, and that keeping hots if done responsibly is less dangerous than non-hotkeepers think... but to say that hots are less dangerous than boids is foolishness. It's statements like this that make people go out and get hots because they say "Oh well, person X says they're less dangerous than boids, so it must be ok!" You guys can't afford this kinda publicity when the aforementioned hypothetical person gets tagged and dies.

reptilesalonica

08-22-03, 03:01 PM

I know MANY people who handle their giant snakes alone, and have never been struck at. I don't know anyone who free handles their hots who hasn't been struck at. Why? Because boids are not as dangerous. They are not as aggressive, and the odds of them attacking are slim to none. Prove me wrong.
Of course you are wrong, because one that handles alone his giant Boid, doesn't mean that this giant cannot harm him...
On the other hand (like GreggM replied) these hot keepers that risk their lives by freehandling their hots are on their own!...
And these people are not far away from those you mentioned that they handle their giants alone!
This is irrisponsible.
'
This quote is just another classic example of hot keeper elitism. You somehow think that just because you have a hot, you're SO much more knowledgable than anyone else who observes from the outside.
I never claim that! Sorry but i don't belong to that class.
All i want is to go with the FACTS.
You never own a Hot~You don't know how it feels like KEEPING and not HEARING from here and then about hots. Then, we couldn't speak in the same level.
Btw you didn't read what i was saying previously in this topic
I don't want to pet any ears and make it sounds like it's easy owning venomous snakes. It's not and venomous snakes are not for everyone-not claiming, on the other hand that i am something special, but i see irresponsible people a lot
It's simple man.
'
The bottom line is this: I can free handle my giants. You can't free handle your hots. And you're saying this makes your hots less dangerous? Well, I'm sorry. You're wrong. You free handle, you WILL be bitten. I free handle, there is an extremely small chance that I will be bitten. Ergo, your hots are more dangerous than giants.
Funny how easily jump to conclusions! :D
No, maybe you want to get over it easy but your thought is not "the bottom line".
I have wrote previously the reasons for handling giants and hots.
~Greg~

Mustangrde1

08-22-03, 03:29 PM

The point is with precautions and tools and trainning and EDUCATION that keeping hots is realitively safe. However freehandling is not a safe practice by any means. The comparring of Hots to large boides was as an illistration that i beleive was taken out of context. Any animal can be safely handled with all the afore mentioned Knowledge.Granted there are still risk no matter how many precations you take and lets face it , If it has a mouth it will bite.

Show me one hot keeper that has a better than everyone attitude and i will be more than happy to rip him /her a new one.NOONE ABSOLUTELY NOONE IS An expert of all mighty status.Anyone who thinks they are has a serious ego check needed.I myself no matter how much i know or learn would call myself an expert I like to think of myself as a student with bright eyes and a wonderful world in front of me to learn from ,and at times teach others.

Zoe

08-22-03, 11:33 PM

Greg (greek guy), what Invictus is saying is that yes, its recommended you handle giant boids with another person (or more), and its also recommended that you handle hots with hooks. Would you agree?
Okay, so now you have two people. First guy handles his 13ft burm by himself. The second free handles his rattle snake. Bottom line, the second guy is at a bigger risk than the first guy of being seriously injured, would you agree?. Lets say now that both these snakes decide to bite. The first guy suffers a helluva bite that hurts like mad. The burm may let go, he may strike repeatedly, or he may hold on, in which case the guy needs to go dunk the snake's head under water. The second guy gets bitten, and if he doesn't have quick access to antivenom, thats it for him. Would you agree? Yes, its possible the burm decides to CONSTRICT the guy, too. Not very likely, but possible. In which case he has a chance to pull the snake off him, but he's probably in for it, too. Right?
So what's the conclusion this modest, non-hot keeping herp lover has reached? That both snakes are dangerous, but a venomous snake is more so if they are both keeping kept by not-so-knowledgeable people.

Now should I get started on how your corn snake / hot comparison is very invalid? lol, nah ;)

Zoe

T.O-SK8TER

08-23-03, 01:17 AM

I think it is better to compare the way they kill there prey. What is more lethal venoum or constriction, we must take anti-venoum and C.P.R out of the scenario, once the venoum is in you it is in you thats it! Constricting you have less than 2 minutes to get the snake off you, kill it, alcahol, water etc. The fact is the venoum you have no time to get COMPLETELY out of with out the anti-venoum and with the constricting a little under 2 minutes to do at least something.

Bryce Masuk

08-23-03, 01:40 AM

"under 2 minutes" go educate yourself not ALL venom is the same not all species have a neurotoxin based venom
If you know what your doing in both cases a Large boid is more dangerous then a hot. keeping a hot away from you with a hook is much easyer then keeping a 200+ pound snake away from you even with 2 people is no easy task un wrapping it from someone is insanely hard facts are hots kill inexperianced people or idiots hot defend themselves when needed How much of the news from countrys where people live in the bushes is going to get on tv not much or none but when a kid in florida picks ups a pygmy rattler and gets bit is it going on tv you better belive it
Large boids can kill experianced handlers a hot will not bite you if maintain correct handling procedures many dont and they die because of it

keeping a diamond back away from you with a hook is much different then a 20 ft retic personally i would rather have the diamond back at me because you can keep it off and a way with a stick or a hook try that with a retic even with two people its no easy task

T.O-SK8TER

08-23-03, 01:58 AM

Hey Bryce learn to comprehend literature, 2 minutes L.O.L. I said you have this amount of time untill you die from constricion NOT THE VENOUM please read carefully what people write and next time you might not be so quick to jump on my *** telling me to go educate myself. What I wrote was completely logical and I have lots of educational movies to back me up. Another thing I was discussing what happens if you are attacked not how experienced you are it is irrelevent in the discussion on how dangerous these animals are.

Bryce Masuk

08-23-03, 02:13 AM

Sorry I blended this into it "once the venoum is in you it is in you thats it!" no its not Many people have been biten and not died. no one has been constricted and magicly came back alive. getting a snake off someone isnt easy in two minutes either. not everyone carrys a knife (I do though :) ) alchol doesnt always work water nearly never does the most viable option is to remove the snakes head or break its spine

"I was discussing what happens if you are attacked not how experienced you are it is irrelevent in the discussion on how dangerous these animals are."
True you were but if you dont act like a idiot the chances are with a hot that you can stop them from biting you
while stopping a Large boid is much harder
and removing them is even harder
I was talking about stopping the "attacker" IMO it is relevent because if you can stop the "attacker" you wont have a problem in the first place

Edited to add a large boid can also break your bones during constriction causing a rib to punture your lung then death is nearly guarented
and people can hold there breath for up to 6 minutes while 2-4 is more common and you heart continues to beat for another 2 or so miniutes after that

Zoe

08-23-03, 02:31 AM

Bryce - ah, but being killed a constrictor is extremely rare! In fact, I believe more people are killed by venomous snakes than by giants.

Also, your brain can go without air for about 3 1/2 minutes (and since the constriction would force any air out of your lungs, there would be no oxygen reserve to rely on even for a few seconds). After that you start to die. And yes, a boid can break a rib, but even IF it goes into your lung death is not nearly guaranteed. Not even close, many people recover from punctured lungs. Of course, they recover if they haven't been been killed by something else already.

And no, not all venom kills in 2 minutes, but if you're alone, get bit, and don't have fast access to a phone a/o anti venom, or if there is no anti venom at the nearest hospital, you can kiss your butt goodbye.

Zoe

T.O-SK8TER

08-23-03, 02:34 AM

BRYCE: Acually constrictors can not break bones and this is fact because the preasure is sread out all over the body, the way you would die is your blood would stop circulating. It does not matter how long you can hold your breath, you will be unconscious in a little under 2 minutes, please dont asume what happens when a boid kills, you are giving others faulse info. LOL I had to edit this so it was made out to Bryce cause Zoe snuck a thread in there before I was done writing mine!

Zoe- I read that your brain works for a little over an hour after you die, is this true?

Zoe

08-23-03, 02:49 AM

Yes, there are still active neurons in your brain for quite a long time after you die. it doesn't mean that are you alive, or can be revived, though.

I think a giant boid probably COULD break a bone, but I don't think it happens too often. i mean when is the last time you heard "crunch crunch" when you feed a mouse to a snake?

But yep, you are right. Your brain stops recieving blood and air when you are being constricted, and it has nothing to do with how long you can hold your breath.

Zoe

T.O-SK8TER

08-23-03, 02:58 AM

So do you think we can use are brain when we are dead, for example knowing in your mind you are dead or thinking about loved ones etc.?

Bryce Masuk

08-23-03, 03:04 AM

Being killed by a Large constictor is Rare AS FAR as you know are there any Native Large species of constictor in The us or canada
nope are there any native vens Damn right there is how many people are bitten there homes by pets not too many how many are bitten by wild snakes most of them do they have any hot experiance or any snake experiance at all for the most part no

Holding your breath is nearly the same thing because the oxygen is consumed in a short period of time especailly when your heart rate rises

And MANY people have been bitten in the middle of nowhere with no anti venom and lived people I have talked to have also been biten by snakes that have no anti venom that person is still alive
People have been bitten by black mamba's with no anti venom and lived

And a smart hot keeper keeps anti-venom on hand no matter what
so that problem isnt a problem

Puntured lungs often kill pending if it goes completely though both sides of the lung and the person it happens to. and puntured lungs are rare from constriction

unconscious and dead are two differnent things you cant set a time on someones death because ALL bodys are different
Constictors CAN break bones I have seen it before and i dont doubt i will see it again

Imo A Smart hot keeper is far safer then a Smart large boid keeper but a dumb hot keeper is dead while the large boid keeper may escape

T.O-SK8TER

08-23-03, 03:10 AM

So you what dissected the rat after the snake killed it, come on man this is pure myth. I have seen X-ray footage of what happens when a boid kills.

T.O-SK8TER

08-23-03, 03:12 AM

The man bitten by the Black Mamba had a pump I would not count it.

Bryce Masuk

08-23-03, 03:20 AM

Actually it was a mouse and I first heard a crunch then blood poured out of its mouth and some of its organs were sent out of its mouth

not in this case he had no pump however he did take a belt and cut the circulation off from his arm to his body

T.O-SK8TER

08-23-03, 03:28 AM

Was it a f/t mouse or p/k?

Zoe

08-23-03, 03:44 AM

Holding your breath is nearly the same thing Well, not really. If you are holding your breath your blood can still circulate, still become oxygenized by the alveolae in your lungs (until the oxygen runs out). When you are being constricted, there is no more blood circulation, either.

And MANY people have been bitten in the middle of nowhere with no anti venom and lived people I have talked to have also been biten by snakes that have no anti venom that person is still alive
People have been bitten by black mamba's with no anti venom and lived Sure, and people have been bitten by giants and lived, have been constricted and lived. Heck, people have fallen out of planes and lived. Doesn't mean its safe.

And a smart hot keeper keeps anti-venom on hand no matter what so that problem isnt a problem It's easier to say that, than to do it. Yes, most hot keepers keep a/v, but not all of them. And if noot, kapoot! Or if you are incapacited for whatever reason.

Puntured lungs often kill pending if it goes completely though both sides of the lung and the person it happens to. You went from almost guaranteed to often. Anyway, pneumothorax (punctured/collapsed lung) is far from often fatal. Some people can have it and not even know until they go to the doctor for shortness of breath and painful breathing and are diagnosed. Those cases are usually the lungs being torn by blunt trama (say, being in a car crash), or in weak and frail smokers. In the case of penetration (of a knife or rib, say), because a lung is like a sponge, once the object is removed the lung can reexpand. Sometimes surgery is needed. Forgive the bio lesson :D I just would not want "if you get a punctured lung you will die for sure" to go around :).

unconscious and dead are two differnent things you cant set a time on someones death because ALL bodys are different Yup, you do have a point. But it's safe to say that "Bob will live for 5 minutes without air, and Linda will live for 15 minutes without hair" is illogical. Those trained can obviously survive longer without air. But when it comes to constriction, there is no blood - and thus no oxygen - going to the brain. And your brain can't survive more than 3 1/2 minutes, 4 TOPS, without oxygen.

Imo A Smart hot keeper is far safer then a Smart large boid keeper but a dumb hot keeper is dead while the large boid keeper may escape Yup, probably. That's what I was saying earlier with my whole "guy a. is holding a burm, guy b. is holding a hot" bla bla bla :D

Zoe

SCReptiles

08-23-03, 12:17 PM

Little Dragon
You post strengthens an argument that I have been making for quite sometime. The general herp population sees venomous keepers as taking too great of a risk and we can not justify what we do to them, however, we understand fully why we do it. The general public feels the same about you, that you feel about venomous keepers. They just can not understand why you would want to keep reptiles at all, but you understand perfectly why you do it. Venomous keepers like Smith just can’t seem to understand why I free hand, but I understand perfectly why I do it.

Invictus
I am researching an article that I am writing on man-eaters. There are documented cases of large constrictors taking man as prey. Classic case was a rock python a few years back. It completely devoured a Shepard boy before regurgitating the meal after he was stoned by villagers.

I would be the first, well probably second after Smith, to admit there is an err of danger in keeping venomous, but based solely on numbers, large constrictors seem to be more dangerous. I keep both, just to assure that I am as close to death as possible. =) According to reptiles magazine, Burmese alone are killing 2 people per year in the United States. That does not account for the Anacondas, Retics, and Rocks. On average about 5 people a year die in the US from venomous snake bites, but virtually all are encounters with wild specimens. (And usually when people are trying to capture of kill them.) There was the recent death of the guy in OH who was tagged by his Rhino viper, but that was the first death from a captive venomous that I have heard of in a long time.

While the numbers support the point that constrictors are more dangerous then venomous, I think they are misleading. I believe the numbers are such because of the way keepers deal with the animals. We take liberties with the pythons, we would never take with the rattlers. I have never been bitten by a venomous snake, but I have been bitten more times then I can count by the pythons. I don’t think that fact has anything to do with the snakes, moreover, I think it is the way I treat the snakes.

reptilesalonica

08-23-03, 01:34 PM

Well said Bryce! Because as i see Zoe don't want to understand what i'm sayin.
ps. to Zoe, I'm not "the Greek guy" i am Reptilesalonica or Greg
Here is what i have stated many posts ago...
Giants need more than one person to handle.
Hots need a hook to handle
'
Beyond that, people who want to free handle their hot snake or handle alone their giant, they are on their own.
I respect SCReptiles' level of knowledge in Herps, but my oppinion is that if SCReptiles, if you my friend, free handle your hots then sooner or later you get tagged and from the other hand, i understand the herp community also, because IF something happened to you {knock!knock! on wood! :)} they don't want to participate, because they don't accept free handling as a safe method for handling hots as pets.
Bottom line is hot herpers or not, or those who have both, they are under the public eye...
What do they wait for? They wait for mistakes by herpers to
stack us to the wall and our beloved herps.
~Greg~

Zoe

08-23-03, 01:37 PM

Greg you say that everytime. I do understand what you're saying, do you even bother to read what I'm saying?

I realize that is what you're written. I even mentionned it many times. Like I said, those are SAFETY PROCEDURES. If they are ignored, the hot keeper is at greater risk. If they are followed, the giant keeper is probably at great risk. Do YOU understand THAT?

Oh, I specified "Greek Guy" (arent you greek?!) because I wanted to GregM to know I wasn't speaking to him.

little_dragon_

08-23-03, 01:53 PM

Boy I really hit you guys with a good discussion, lol.
I watched a few documentaries, Scrub Pythons, Retics, Rock Pythons, Anaconda's have all been known to take Smal Adults and children. On the Set of Anna and the king a man was attacked by a large python, probably a retic, being Thialand/maylasia.

I know I will hit another spark but I think Large Boa's Pythons, such as Rock, Retics, Anacondas, Scrubs should not be allowed to be sold to the general public.

Zoe

08-23-03, 02:01 PM

I pretty much agree with you there. I've seen too many rescue burms, that I don't think they should be kept by the average herper. And in most place, they aren't even legal anyway.
Boas, however, I think are fine. They get to be 7-10 feet, nothing near giant size. Also, yellow anacondas don't get very big at all, it's the green condas that are dangerous.

Zoe

SCReptiles

08-23-03, 02:26 PM

I do not attempt to convert anyone to free handling. I understand full well why most venomous keepers do not do it, however, I feel free handlers have as much right to exist as the non-free handing keepers. My point is that the general herp community says the same things about hot keepers as they say about us. Its all just a cycle.

Zoe

08-23-03, 02:33 PM

Have you ever been invenomated, Chuck? I'm not asking in a smart *** way, I'm just curious :)

Zoe

SCReptiles

08-23-03, 03:01 PM

Zoe, never. I have about 15 years experience in hots and I have never been bitten. Further more, no one I have ever trained has been bitten. I love being able to say that and I fully intend to keep it that way.

Bryce Masuk

08-23-03, 03:23 PM

"Like I said, those are SAFETY PROCEDURES. If they are ignored, the hot keeper is at greater risk. If they are followed, the giant keeper is probably at great risk."

That's what I was trying to get across glad I did
Hots are amazing but not for 99% of people From the first time I saw someone handle a Hot in person I was hooked When i am ready I will keep them but not till then

Invictus

08-23-03, 05:35 PM

You are still being foolish by saying that giants are more dangerous. Maybe a giant, once it has decided to kill you, is more dangerous than a hot that has decided to kill you, but again, consider the LIKELIHOOD. Also consider the PER CAPITA cases of people dying from hots vs people dying from burms. Sorry Chuck, but saying X number of people died from this snake and X number of people died from that snake is completely invalid, and actually proves my point. HOTS ARE MORE DANGEROUS. Consider the ratio of burm owners who have been attacked by their burms. It's probably one in 10,000 or less. But Chuck, I bet you've been attacked by hots, haven't you? Maybe not tagged, but don't tell me your hots haven't tried.

Hots are hundreds of times more likely to attack you than boids, and that is a FACT. You use hooks to handle hots because they are more dangerous than boids, and that is also a FACT. You people who are claiming otherwise are very good at dodging the issue. If your hots are safer than my giants, you'd be able to free handle them, but you can't, ergo, your hots are more dangerous. FACT.

Little Dragon - I can't say I agree with you, but apparently Alberta Fish & Wildlife does. Burms, scrubs, retics, anacondas, afrocks, ALL illegal in Alberta. I hate it. I am a responsible keeper, and would like to be able to keep some of these giants.

KrokadilyanGuy3

08-23-03, 06:59 PM

Eh, you can free hand hots I as well as others I know have. Not that its a constent practice but I've had to prove points several times such as the pic in Kingsnake. Im sure most have seen it in the galleries..

Hots are hundreds of times more likely to attack you than boids, and that is a FACT. .

[FONT=times new roman]

Attack. Such a fun word.. The hots I have and all the hots I've had can prove you wrong on that. (Except atrox, fun animals)
I bet boid keepers have been bitten 10 times more than hot keepers..

You use hooks to handle hots because they are more dangerous than boids, and that is also a FACT

We use hooks to handle our animals because when our animals decide to go into defense the bite we get is more than just a few holes. Not persay more dangerous.

Evryone seems to think just because they are venomous means that they are dangerous, thing is we know our animals will bite and we know what our animals can do, so why tempt it?

Gregg M

08-23-03, 07:05 PM

Actually both venomous and large constrictors can be very dangerous in the wrong hands....... That should be the bottom line here....... T.O.SKATER, to answer your question, NO I have never been envenomated or bitten by a venomous snake and I have been at this for a looooooooong time........ That is something I am very proud of....... I hope to keep this perfect record for as long as I keep hots......... Invictus, You have many valid points here........ I do agree with Chuck about the numbers of deaths due to constrictors....... And if you check the numbers of hots to the number of constictors, there are way more hots in the states, wild and captive........ You do the math.......

cobraman

08-23-03, 07:45 PM

"NO I have never been envenomated or bitten by a venomous snake and I have been at this for a looooooooong time........ "

Me either, Gregg!!!! (OH, OH!!!

Gregg M

08-23-03, 07:50 PM

Right...... Hey Ray, I have a bridge that goes from Brooklyn to Manhattan to sell....... Wanna buy it???? LOL......

cobraman

08-23-03, 08:53 PM

let me check my funds.........I'm a little short of cash because of the last hospital bill that was not another snakebite. Take a check?
Ray

Bryce Masuk

08-23-03, 10:07 PM

lol Ray "it didnt bite me I fell on it and my hand went in its mouth and you figure it outttttt...........

Aaron_S

08-23-03, 10:12 PM

Invictus,You say your friends can handle their large boids alone, now are these CBB animals or fresh WC animals? Let's see you're friends free handle a WC sulawesi retic. Come on it's not gonna kill you.

Bryce Masuk

08-23-03, 10:17 PM

Invictus you can Yell FACT all you want but it still means jack

What do you think is more dangerous in a situation a snake of 5lbs at the end of a hook.or a 200 pound snake forcing its way towards you as the hook you have does JACK? if you treat a hot the way it Should be treated you will be fine if you take the time to educate yourself and work with a hot keeper for a good amount of time. i cant say the same for the 2 guys with the af rock pushing towards them because a 200 pound afrock is about as strong as 4-6 people and the determination is beyond comperention

BWSmith

08-23-03, 10:18 PM

OK, I don't know what happened to this thread. I put in my 2 cents worth in the beginning and now we are in a hot vs. giant debate? My god, I just can't leave you crazy kids to play alone can I? :D :D

Well, I have already addressed the original issue, so i guess I can throw out my opinion on this (I know it is hard to drag an opinion out of me :p ) But first I want to address a little tidbit mentioned earlier.

Ok, we may not all be experienced hot keepers, but we're not morons either. This quote is just another classic example of hot keeper elitism.

This is something that I see often. The "Sacred Priesthood" of hot-keeping. I think that alot of it stems from the time and effort that most of have put into our endeavor. We don't just have to learn husbandry requirements. We have to know specifics about each species, what type of venom, how the venom works, protocol, handling, specific caging, strict room requirements, personal safety and public safety. Not to mention that we are persecuted and subject to more legislation to most herpers. I am in no way saying that we put more research or experience into keeping hots than someone who breeds Mandarin Ratsnakes for example. But many of us have taught ourselves a great deal about not only the items I mentioned, but a basic understanding of toxinology and antivenin (some more advanced training than others). So it seems that hot keepers (many) often must learn not only a great deal of information and keep up with research, but it touches on a wide spectrum of disciplines. Additionally, the hands-on experience offers more knowledge that can be contained in any book. A book cannot teach you how they move, strike, ride a hook or a thousand other specific behaviors. I am in no way condoning the elitism behavior. I have found MANY herpers that know more about boids or colubrids or venomous than I can ever hope to know. I simply wanted to address this so that non hot keepers may understand a bit. There are those that feel that they are above nonven keepers. I will not deny that. But that is not always the case. Often times (not referring to this thread), someone with no experience in hots will make a bold statement about handling or the like. This is like someone who has kept only lizards telling you how to work with an 18' retic when you have spent years working with them. One of the distinct disadvantages to an online community is that most of the time, everyone is just handle. Generally, you have little idea what experience the person yo are talking to has. I will never forget someone spewing out info on Black Mamba care, and he turned out to be a 14 year old kid. Many of the hot keepers that have been in this for a while (at least online) are jaded by the KS venomous forums. Thus most of it I would not lable at elitism, rather scepticism. This was not related to posts int his thread, but it is somethign that I felt needed clarification since the ven forum seems to be growing and is frequented by many nonven only keepers. You will ahve to forgive me if I did not explaine it as elequently as I could, but it is late and I had a back breaking day.

Because of that, I have exhausted my energy on that point rather than what I intended. I may revisit ven vs. giant tomorrow. But hopefully I offered a little enlightenment and food for thought.

Zoe

08-23-03, 10:36 PM

Very good points BW! I do understand why a hot keeper might consider himself above the rest, especially when a kid with a leopard gecko and a corn snake is telling him how to handle his snakes. But I do see a lot of "I've kept hot for years so don't try and tell me anything because I already know it" on the ven forum and I find it a bummer because they are closing themselves to interesting debate, even when it comes to not-ven-specific subjects.

As for hot / giant, I think the general consensus was that if two idiots are keeping hots and giants ,the hot keeper is at greater risk, but if two good keepers are keeping hots and giants, the giant keeper is at greater risk.

Zoe

reptilesalonica

08-24-03, 01:27 AM

Good points father (BWSmith) :D :thumbsup:
'
Zoe, hmmmm....you cannot say that a good keeper is at greater risk, because IF he is a good keeper he won't do mistakes by handling alone his giants....
You can say though that giants since they are so, when they decide something, can move faster and because they are bigger, they can reach the handler(s) easier and do what they want to do...
A giant can move ahead 3 meters in 1 sec, while a hot in 10 secs...plus the size of each...
Idiots with hots and idiots with giants, yes, here i agree that idiots can make more mistakes with hots.
But a good, experienced hot keeper, know his limits and the snakes' reaction and EVEN if the snake decides to attack, the snake cannot do much, since it's on the hook.
Good point that of BWSmith for those times that a hot rides the hook. Why won't we have a 2nd hook aside?
This way every danger is limited to zero.
~Greg~

Zoe

08-24-03, 01:00 PM

because IF he is a good keeper he won't do mistakes by handling alone his giants.... There is always a risk of danger. It's not like any one keeper can say "i am not at any risk and never will be". No, because there is always that chance that something might happen. Its unfortunate, but it's true.

A giant can move ahead 3 meters in 1 sec, while a hot in 10 secs plus the size of each Is that a stat? If so where are you getting it from? I would like to see a 20 foot snake move 30 feet in one second.

Zoe

Mustangrde1

08-24-03, 01:26 PM

Well after cleaning up the coffee i spit all over the monitor after reading rays post and by the way I too have a bridge for sale.Debate is a great thing it is how you learn or possibly have your eyes opened to knew theories.As to eleiteism I will say it again show me an self proclaimed expert I will show you a fool.Herpetology is a constant evolving science where no one person is a expert.Just when you think you know it something changes.

BWSmith

08-24-03, 02:16 PM

yup, the day you think you know everything is the day to sell all your herps and start with fish ;) They day you don't learn something new, is a wasted day.

BurmBaroness

08-24-03, 03:20 PM

Still don't see the comparison between giants and hots. They are nothing alike. Sure, there can be danger with each, and either COULD kill you. I do not handle my large burm alone, and haven't since she passed the 8ft mark. Why? Cause even tho she has never so much as hissed at us, the potential is there. I have lemon juice and a good sharp knife on hand whenever she is out, because if she does constrict me, There is the possibility for serious consequences. I do not think it is safe to handle a large boid alone for any reason, altho I know it's tempting when the cage needs to be cleaned, etc. I just wait for my boys to come home and work with her then. Also, there is the whole mindset. In the back of my mind, even tho I am in no way afraid of nor intimidated by her, I have to remember her potential. not to do so would be stupid and irresponsible. But I think the mindset would be different with a ven. You can't keep it in the back of your mind, it has to be right up front at all times, because it only takes a second, and you can't just unwrap a hot and say," boy, I sure hope that was a dry bite!" Irresponsible keepers of vens and boids have more risk of getting hurt or killed, but responsible ones do minimize their risks greatly.

reptilesalonica

08-24-03, 08:20 PM

Is that a stat? If so where are you getting it from? I would like to see a 20 foot snake move 30 feet in one second.
You should see it hu(a)ngry! :D
'
They day you don't learn something new, is a wasted day.
So very true! :thumbsup:
'
Here is an article i found on Melissa Kaplan's site

A Fatal Attack on a Teenage Boy by a Captive Burmese Python (Python molurus bivittatus) in Colorado

"The recent Colorado case of a human death caused by a Burmese python (Python molurus bivittatus; 20 July 1993) resulted in considerable sensational media coverage as well as widely varying estimates of the snake's length and weight. In the interest of scientific accuracy, we sought and received the cooperation of the Commerce City Police Department in acquiring detailed information regarding both the victim and the snake so that correct data could be placed on record.
"The victim was a 15-year-old male, 152 cm [5'] tall, weighing 43 kg [95lb]. While in bed, naked except for briefs, he was bitten on the right instep, with maxillary and palatine-pterygoid tooth marks clearly visible on the dorsal surface of the foot and dentary tooth marks clearly visible on the plantar surface. Numerous tooth impressions were present on the fingers of both hands, but only on their palmar surfaces, indicating that the hands had tried to pry open the snake's jaws from around the instep. The fingers and the foot bled profusely. Autopsy photographs revealed scleral ecchymotic hemorrhage, and venous congestion in the cerebrum (petechial and ecchymotic hemorrhage both present), all being signs of agonal breathing consistent with a diagnosis of suffocation as a cause of death. No attempt was made during autopsy to distinguish between suffocation and circulatory arrest (Hardy, 1993) as causes of death; however, in subsequent correspondence the pathologist hypothesized that circulatory arrest would more likely be the cause of death of smaller prey, whereas suffocation would be more likely with larger victims. Although blood was present on the victim's face, hands arms and legs, there was no blood present on the neck or on the middle of the torso, suggesting that the snake's coils had been wrapped around this area. Bruising of the victim's skin, consistent with this hypothesis, was visible in the photographs. There was no evidence that the snake had attempted to swallow any part of the victim.
"The snake was 336 cm [11'2"] total length, and weighed 24 kg [53lb]. Incidentally, almost all estimates of the snake's weight presented by the media were above 27 kg and ranged as high as 54 kg. The only accurate weight had been recorded by Officer Steven Paxton soon after the fatality, but few news writers quoted him, preferring to use the larger, exaggerated numbers. Circumference at the thickest part of the body was 38cm [15"]. The snake had not been fed for 10 days prior to taking the measurements reported here (19 September 1993) and the most recent meal had already been digested and passed. Thus, the digestive system was probably empty. We did not probe the snake's cloaca, but the short tail and diminutive pelvic spurs strongly suggest that it is a female. This animal had been raised since hatching by a close relative of the victim, and at the time of the attack the snake was not confined to a cage, but had freedom to move about the house. The victim was long familiar with the snake.
"...This raises the question of why the snake killed so large a victim. Although any answer that we can put forward would be conjectural, it is known that pythons and certain other constrictors will sometimes attack prey that cannot be ingested (Branch and Hacke, 1980; Fritts et al., 1990), whether through misinterpretation of size or through presence on the victim of chemical or other cues that are associated with normal prey.
"Perhaps the most significant point to emerge from this Colorado case is the fact that a 24kg python, modest in size by comparison with full grown specimens of this and several other species, was able to kill a healthy 43kg adolescent human. This will come as no surprise to experienced herpetologists, but it might be startling to people who have grown unjustifiably complacent with their now mature pythons that have been raised since hatching."
Through years of meeting people--especially teenage boys and young male adults--who want or have just bought Burmese and reticulated pythons, I have found that they really do not understand just how big their snakes will get, and even if they do, being "cool" tends to override common sense. Many men (and woefully ill-educated pet store owners and employees) recommend Burmese as "good starter snakes" instead of Ball pythons (P. regius) because of their docility and hearty appetite (failing to recognize that the initial nervousness and reticence to feed are traits common in wild-caught Ball pythons, not in captive bred ones).
I recently met two people who have a deep-seated fear of snakes, both due to encounters with large, loose pythons. The first is a woman whose infant niece was killed by the parent's python which had been kept in an insecure enclosure. The second is a young man who, while sleeping at a friend's house, was awakened by the friend's Burmese python which was in the process of wrapping itself around the young man. When he had gone to bed, the snake was on top of the refrigerator, its owner not wanting to "disturb" it by getting it down and putting it safely away.
What must be remembered is that, no matter how tame and friendly the snake, it is and always will be a wild animal, and as such, subject to what appears to the owner to be unpredictable behavior. No matter how many years one has had a snake, no matter how familiar the snake is with its owner-family, hunger, fear, unease and other factors can trigger instinctual behaviors. Good examples of this were published in the February 1994 issue of Reptiles (Pssst...wanna see my pet snake?and in the general press in 1996 (NY Teen Killed by Pet Burmese).
Another misconception about giant pythons (and giant iguanid and varanid lizards) is that when they get "too" big, they can just be given to zoos and wild animal parks. NOT! Zoos and wild animal parks have all the giant reptiles that they can handle. Zoos should not, even if they could afford to spare the resources, become a repository of cast-off pets.
The giant pythons are beautiful, awesome animals. There is something breathtaking about seeing a snake with a girth the size of a telephone pole, coiled up contentedly in its basking area. But there are some animals that are not suitable as common pets for some people due to the amount of space and other resources that must be committed to that animal for its entire life, one that may span two or three decades.

~Greg~

BWSmith

08-24-03, 08:25 PM

Mellissa Kaplan wants to see all herps banned. Just FYI.

reptilesalonica

08-24-03, 08:28 PM

I didn't knew that, but this is just an article.
~Greg~

Lisa

08-25-03, 12:03 AM

Well I don't keep hots currently (unless you count a western hognose). Mainly cause we don't have a safe place for them. One species I'd love to have is a eastern massasauga.

rwg

08-26-03, 08:42 PM

Alright, I'm barely a keeper of anything, but I want to point out a trend. When some newbie comes on the ven forum and says "I dont know much about snakes...which hot should I get first", you all jump on him (and rightly so) pointing out that handling will be necessary, and even momentary lapses in concentration can kill you. You advise years of non-ven handling, and you advise mentoring under experienced keepers. All good advice.

When someone jumps on the giant forum and says "I wanna get a snake, and the bigger the better. Which one should I get?" he gets the old " do you know how many burms end up in rescues" speech. It is often pointed out that it requires more than one person to handle, and it is even frequently pointed out that a giant snake can kill you. Generally the responses dont recomend years of colubrid experience, and I have never seen anyone recomend a mentor to learn the ropes of burm handling.

You can claim that hots are less dangerous than giants, and some hots (copperheads?) may actually be less dangerous than some giants (annacondas?), but the collective community behaves as though the reverse were true in general.

MontyPython

08-27-03, 10:01 AM

You can claim that hots are less dangerous than giants, and some hots (copperheads?) may actually be less dangerous than some giants (annacondas?), but the collective community behaves as though the reverse were true in general.

Was that saying the same thing twice? Or do i need to get some more sleep?

rwg

08-27-03, 02:38 PM

What I (hope) I said is: Some people are claiming hots are less dangerous than giants. People posting on the giant and venomous forums act as though hots are MORE dangerous than giants in the advice that they give. This is somewhat contradictory.

reptilesalonica

08-31-03, 08:54 PM

A strike of a 6 meter Boid can be aggressive because the large size of the Boid gives him enough confidence to chase and strike even a human.
A strike of 1 meter venomous snake is aggressive to the prey item that wants to eat, but when it has to be human, then its' strike is only defensive and only if it feels threatened.
~Greg~

Scales Zoo

09-17-03, 09:39 AM

Having read through these threads again, I have come to this.

We keep giant pythons, and I work with them, feed them and maintain their cages. Each snake is different in its attitude and acceptance of my presence. The anaconda and african rock need to be boxed - regardless of their demeanor on any given day. Pandora the 20 foot retic can be let out to be supervised (not handled) while the cage is cleaned. The other 20+ foot retic, affectionately known as BOOTS for good reason, needs to be captured and contained. This involves calling our biggest, strongest, unafraid friend for assistance practising our bad language. The burms for the most part are pssycats, until feeding time, then they are panthers.

We live and work amongst a huge population of prairie rattlers. I kid you not when I say I would rather find a rattler in the laundry room, than Boots out of his cage.

In my conversations with several hot keepers, I have discovered that some species are more temper - mental (yes, 2 words) than others. Same goes for our pythons and boas.

It requires skill and discipline to learn the behaviors of each individual animal, regardless of species, to work with them safely.

Both are equally dangerous in seperate ways, as hots at feeding time are bent on biting and envenomating, and boids are bent on constriction. Accidents with both are not uncommon, but it is usually more of an issue with hots when the media gets wind of it.
Responsible hot and giant keepers know their snakes, and use appropriate safety precautions to prevent accidents. It would be foolish, in my opinion, to treat either without due respect.

Sheila