Beardies toxic to uros? interesting question needs answers....

[Cas]

Okay... so I've been hearing from a uromastyx mailing list that bearded dragons have something in their normal gut flora that can be fatal to uromastyx species (yet another reson not to mix these two species!). But... no one can tell me what it is! Now, does anyone out there happen to know anything about this or have any references? Or, does anyone have access to a good herp vet who might know about this?

I'd <b>love</b> to be able to tell people this when they ask if these two species can live together (you can beat people over the head with stress and different temps/environment and some still won't listen... "but, they both live in the desert!" :p ), but I don't want to be passing around something that's innacurate.

So, let me know if you've heard this too, or know of references (internet, book, paper, or person). :D

Thanks
Dawn

[eyespy]

I don't know the specific strains of bacteria involved, but the vet newsgroups like Veterinary Information Network are full of cases of mixed reptile species in an enclosure killing off the beneficial gut bacteria in all the inhabitants. Beardies and uros are frequently described as so many folks think they are both desert species and try to pair them up. Similar reports are often found with people trying to mix cages of South American boas with pythons from Africa or Asia.

Unless reptiles are in the same genus an also have overlapping territories in their natural environments in the wild, you can be fairly sure that the beneficial strains of bacteria carried by each species are not going to be compatible. Since beardies and uros come from different continents, the bacteria each carry has had millions of years to evolve and change and so it's quite likely that they are now totally incompatible.

When enough beneficial bacteria dies, or an incompatible strain takes over, animals cannot digest their food properly and can literally starve to death no matter how much you feed them. In less severe cases you end up with malabsorption syndrome where they are able to digest and absorb enough nutrients to survive but they don't thrive and grow as they should.

I've rescued literally hundreds of bearded dragons that were considered "runts" and just keeping them in a separate cage and giving them some acidophilus supplements to put back some form of beneficial bacteria got them right back on track. I've also had a large number of cases where intervention was just too late and there was too much intestinal damage to save them.

[V.hb]

Ive heard Beardies carry higher amounts of coccidia in their droppings than any other reptile, and it can be quite harmful to other lizards if ingested.

[eyespy]

I've heard that too but after I started doing my own fecals on every animal that comes through my door I've noticed that beardies are no more likely to carry coccidia than uros are. It's a frequent find in either of them.

[Tara Garratt]

Can the coccidia be reduced or eliminated, or do the animals need to keep it for some reason?

Tara Garratt

[V.hb]

eyespy, have you seen any other species carrying high levels of coccidia on a regular basis?

[eyespy]

Most of the "petshop populars" as we call them in medical slang, carry various strains of Eimeria, one type of coccidia. Cornsnakes, ball pythons, veiled chameleons, uros, beardies, leopard, crested, marble or tokay geckos. I'm not meaning to smear petshops here, but it's so easy to handle an animal, get distracted, and forget to wash up before handling the next animal that any creature you purchase from a pet shop should be considered suspect, and you should always have fecals done and use proper quarantine procedures when you bring home a new animal.

It's interesting to me that beardies get the bad rep for carrying the coccidia, but the genus they normally carry, Isospora, doesn't usually transfer to other species. The Eimerias can really run amok.

Yes, Tara, coccidia can be treated and while some folks think it'sa fairly normal gut flora, it hasn't shown to be a true symbiote that helps the animals' digestion. Many people treat whenever there's a slight sign of coccidia, and many others wait until an animal is symptomatic before treating and it's highly debated which is best.

I have a bias towards treating, as that was the philosophy at Penn where I was taught and coccidia is no longer anywhere near as common find in bearded dragons bred in our area because most of the breeding stock has been successfully treated. We still see a lot of it because most of the beardies sold around here were bred elsewhere, but nothing like we used to see in the mid-1990s.

[V.hb]

I suppose breeding beardies in an unsterile enviroment would cause this problem as well? Lots of pet stores keep large colonys of juvis in small tanks with lots of defecation, I guess its all just a breeding spot for coccidia and worse.