depated topic???????

[snakehunter]

i have heard some say that hognoses are venomous, but mildley, and i have heard others say that they are not at all. i resently saw reverendsterlin post a pic of what looks to me a hognose (correct me if im wrong), soooo..... whats the scoop are they? thanx
-Jacob

[Wuntu Menny]

Yes, they are mildly venomous. The great debate rages on about relative toxicity, though. The whole issue seems to hinge on the reaction of the individual envenomated by the snake. Some people obviously have worse reactions than others.

There is also a sticking point as to whether all sp of hognose from all locales produce venom of the same potency. The whole thing is difficult to quantify as the snake's venom is only designed to subdue it's amphibian prey of choice.

WM

[Gregg M]

They are only dangerous if you are a toad....LOL..... They are not considered venomous because they are not dangerous to people...... You could have a reaction to the "venom" of a hognose....... You will most likely suffer nothing more than alittle bit of slight swelling and redness at the site of the bite...... That would be an extream case and if you can actually get a hognose to bite you....LOL...... Some people have even had adverse reactions to garter snake bites..... Something to ponder....

[Zoe]

I thought they were poisonous?

Zoe

[Gregg M]

Venomous, not poisonous....... Venom is injected and poison is absorbed....... Dart frogs=poisonous, Rattlesnakes=venomous....

[Delighted2b]

LOL I have a couple of hognose and they are all hiss and no bite! Gregg is right, if you can piss off a hognose enough to bite you the reaction is like a mosquito bite it's practically nothing.

<smile>
Danielle

[reverendsterlin]

The western and southern have parotid glands which some people argue are different than venom glands, however envenomations have also been reported from eastern hognose H. platyrhinos which lacks the parotid glands. Some schools of thought say the snake has a caustic saliva lacking some protiens expected in 'true' venom, others argue the delivery system is wrong because the 'fangs' are enlarged teeth for puncturing swollen frogs and neither hollow nor grooved. Other note toxicity differences and claim them to be an actual poisonous snake absorbing toxins from toads as dart frogs do from insects(plants?). Me, I don't worry about it lol, when the experts decide the facts I'll know for sure.

[Zoe]

Gregg.. there is more to the definition though, isnt there? Because the stuff in platypus claws is injected, but it isn't venom because it isn't used to bring down prey. Lol I think there was big thread about this a while back :)

Zoe

[Gregg M]

Venom can be used soley for defence...... If it is injected into the blood stream its a venom..... If it is absorbed or ingested it is a poison....... Never try to school a long time hot keeper on the difference between venom and poison......LOL.....

[Zoe]

Then you are saying platypus are venomous? As well as Komodo Dragons?

Never try to school a long time hot keeper on the difference between venom and poison
Now then, there other ways to know the definitions than just having kept hots. And at any rate, with hots you only need to know that they are venomous (or at least I hope you know! :D), doesn't have anything to do with poison!

[Mustangrde1]

interesting observation on the Komodo, However as it has no venom or gland or delevery system it would be concidered toxic saliva .To relate this the Gila and beaded lizards have a venom gland and delevery system thus making them venomous.Venom has to be produced and injected via an delevery system.where the komodos chewing much like that of the gila could be termed a delevery system without the actual gland to produce venom i would have to say its a toxic lizard.As to the that wierd animal from down under that just proves mother nature had a since of humor.It is I believe only the male of the species that has the venomous spurr's.From a little research I found out its used for defence and mating battles with other males.But it is truly a venomous mamal as it has a venom gland and delevery system of injection.The Hognose atleast in america i believe is not truly venomous but is toxic .Until someone actually does a true research and milking of these animals to prove if they truly have a working , functional delevery system they remain toxic in my book ,However if anyone can prove the criteria for venom i will change my mind criteria being a fully funtional venom maiking / producing gland, a delevery duct and a means of Injecting it in to a prey etc etc. Now if anyone can come up with a injection IV for coffee please let me know lol.

[Gregg M]

Yes I am saying that a platypus IS the only known VENOMOUS mammal...... Now for the komodo dragon...... I would not say it is venomous because the actual salyva does not kill the the prey, it is the hungreds of living micro organisms that infest the komodos salyva that does the dead...... Plus they have no delivery system..... Would you say bees are poisonous or venomous??? Honey bees do not use their sting to take down prey, but they have a venomous sting........ Got anymore questions for this test??? Look up the definition of the words venomous and the word poisonous and you will get two very different answers..... Like I said, do not try to school me.......LOL.....

[The_Omen]

Yes I am saying that a platypus IS the only known VENOMOUS mammal

Sure?


The Solenodon (http://www.scs.ryerson.ca/aferworn/research/Solenodon.html) and at least one species of shrew, possibly several, are classified as venomous mammals.


Exerpt - Like some of the shrews which they resemble, although they are not closely related to them, they have a poisonous saliva. The second incisor on each side in the lower jaw is grooved. Indeed, solenodon means grooved tooth. At the base of each of these incisors is a gland from which the poison runs along the groove in each tooth. When solenodons fight in captivity the light wounds inflicted are fatal.

[reverendsterlin]

yep there was a thread on this several months ago and we'll again hit the argument that the shrews(and others{6?]) are poisonous not venomous because of lacking a delievery system. Still, I think we have determined that with the hognose there just hasn't been enough specific research to determine whether it is poisonous or venomous (note to self lol next time put the hoggy under general forum not venomous forum).

[The_Omen]

yep there was a thread on this several months ago and we'll again hit the argument that the shrews(and others{6?]) are poisonous not venomous because of lacking a delievery system.

I am not sure exactly how many species of the shrew actually are 'hot' or what their delivery system actually is, whether chewed in saliva, or what.
But the solenodon, has grooved teeth and the glands which is a delivery system. Their name means grooved teeth.

[shaggybill]

Speaking of chewing to deliver venom, I read recently that coral snakes do NOT have to chew to envenomate, is this true? I always thought that they did have to chew to a certain degree.

[reverendsterlin]

corals have a pair of small, fixed, hollow fangs in the anterior aspect of the mouth through which the snake conducts venom via a chewing motion, but this is not a necessary condition they can envenomate without chewing. As a hot keeper I'll state the most venomous snakes that are not strike and release chew and that on occassion even strike and release species do as well. My female gaboon has bitten down (chewed) so hard on occassion the her whole neck and head shake from the effort. My crots sometimes will hang on and work their jaws as well.

[Zoe]

Look up the definition of the words venomous and the word poisonous and you will get two very different answers.....

I did look it up - it says "poisonous" means "venomous". Good dictionary, huh? I would say bees are poisonous, yes. "Venom" seems to imply a predator, don't you think?

Like I said, do not try to school me

Well, I don't suppose you need to read what I write if you don't want to, but I don't think it is fair for you to be dismissive of what others say on the base that you have kept venomous snakes and I haven't.

Zoe

[Gregg M]

Zoe, I believe we can all learn from everyone....... When I said dont try to school me. I was saying it in a joking manner..... I forgot to put the LOL at the end........ And your post are worth reading........ If they werent I would not reply...... Sorry if you took me wrong...... Animals can be venomous without being predatory..... And bees are VENOMOUS..... :P.....LOL

[eyespy]

Originally posted by Gregg M
They are only dangerous if you are a toad....LOL..... They are not considered venomous because they are not dangerous to people...... You could have a reaction to the "venom" of a hognose....... You will most likely suffer nothing more than alittle bit of slight swelling and redness at the site of the bite...... That would be an extream case and if you can actually get a hognose to bite you....LOL...... Some people have even had adverse reactions to garter snake bites..... Something to ponder....

The National Institute of Health has given Dr. Stephen Mackessy a grant to research colubrid venoms and he has found that allergic reactions and reactions to the toxins in colubrid venoms are two entirely separate things. Many of the reactions that were called allergic reactions in the past have failed to meet the criteria for allergic reaction and so the current thinking is that there is a greater possibility of toxicity than previously thought.

A true allergic reaction produces 3 chemicals that can be easily found in the bloodstream, histamine, tryptase and immunoglobulins. A fair number of the bite victims tested did not produce these chemicals, and so they did not have an allergic reaction. It is very easy to visually inspect angioedemic reactions and decide that it's an allergy, but bloodwork has failed to back up a number of those diagnoses. Angioedema can also be caused by the hemotoxins present in Duvernoy's gland secretions.

[Gregg M]

Thanks for that bit of info Eyespy....... I think I have read a report pertaining to to what you mentioned........ I will have to dig through some files this weekend to see what I can dig up...... This is great stuff.......