Ya My Pacman is eating now! + diet question

[diabolique]

So Chibi Chibi ate his first 2 earthworms today after like 3 months of not eating. It was quite strange actually, when I came into the office after the long weekend (yes, i am allowed to keep him at work) He actually looked liked he was dead. He was kinda floating in the water (front legs splayed, not at all like his usual crouch) and his skin looked kinda waxy and his eyes were closed.

So i called "Chibi... Chibi.. into the cage and ate first nothing happened, and i thought "oh no, he's dead..." then he started doing the heavy breathing thing and i was totally relieved so I left him to it (sleeping, or whatever he was doing).

FFWD to Thursday, I come into work in the morning and there he is sitting on the rocks looking all perky and awake, like he hadn't been asleep for months. I was thrilled.

Friday i brought him some earthworms, and offered them to him with the feeding tongs, he immeadiately went for the worm. It took him about 5 minutes to eat the first worm, which was interesting because he can usually scarf down 6 in that amount of time. Then I feed him a second worm which he immeadiatley went for as well and that also took him 5 minutes to eat.

I left it at that since the guy hasn't eating in like 3 months at least and I didn't want to over do it. I will try again on monday.

I just had a dietary question. He only seems to like earthworms. Occassionally he will eat a pinkie like 2 a year, he will not touch crickets as far as i can tell, they all seem to drown or die weeks later. I have tried waxworms, mealworms and silk worms but the only thing he seems to like is earthworms. is this okay?

I use that calcimize stuff in his water and i change it once a week.
Once in a while he will go crazy and try and escape like 2 or 3 times a year but for the most part the most action he sees in heavy breathing and feeding time, unless he has some sort of secret life at night when the office is closed.

He has been off eating at least once before that i remember, for at least a month or two and he is probably 2 to 3 years old now.

Is there anything I can do to make his life more interesting or stimulating. I am concerned he is bored, bored of his cage and bored of eating earthworms...

thanks,

D

[eyespy]

Please take that frog to the vet, that "going crazy" is called toxing out. When a pacman is trying to escape from its cage, it's because of a buildup of ammonia or other nasties in its environment that are getting absorbed through the skin and slowly poisoning the frog.

A qualified reptile vet can use injections of saline plus medicated salt baths to help reduce the level of toxins accumulating in bloodstream and body tissues, which will often make for a more active frog who is interested in eating a wider variety of prey. You can help the process along by totally disinfecting the cage, with a total substrate change and throwing out any cage furniture that is porous like wood or clay, and thoroughly disinfecting the rest. Unless the frog is burrowed down and estivating, you need to change the water daily, or even more frequently should it be visibly soiled.

Earthworms are one of the more nutritious choices, but the high protein level can cause kidney disease or gout so keep trying as many different feeders as you can. Superworms, feeder roaches, butterworms, hornworms, tomato worms, and grasshoppers are all excellent choicies. But the underlying toxins need to be flushed first. A frog with high ammonia levels doesn't have the muscular strength to chase down active prey.

Get rid of the calcium stuff you add to water. Frogs absorb water through their skins at a much higher rate than almost any other creature and water additives mess with how that water is absorbed by body tissues. They can end up with calcium or other mineral crystals trapped within them where they are not at all bioavailable. Frogs should get their calcium through their digestive system so it can be properly absorbed and processed by the intestines.

Don't worry about inactive pacmen with waxy appearances. That is actually quite normal behavior for them. They will brumate or estivate by producing a hardened mucus layer and doing the big sleep or a lower-key just hanging out version for weeks or even months. Then when atmospheric conditions suit them, they will soak off that coating and become active once more. Pacmen by their nature are relatively inactive frogs except when hunting, it's the hyperactive behavior that is a warning signal that something is wrong.

[Wuntu Menny]

Eyespy may have a point about toxing out. Personally, I wouldn't attribute the frantic behaviour to it as much as the prostrate, near death appearance. I certainly agree about removing the water supplementaion, knock that off right away! Calcium is a vital component of nerve and muscle function. Too much or too little can cause all sorts of motor disfunction.

It is normal for the frog to hunker down for long periods and take on that waxy look, it helps them avoid dehydration. They are, for the most part, stationary ambush hunters. They will lay motionless, buried in the pampas bog up to their eyes, waiting for anything that will fit in their mouths to pass close enough.

I actually opted for the de Vosjoli program of raising Ceratophrys. The diet consists primarily of feeder goldfish. I had very good results following his guidelines.

I would have to suggest following eyespy's regimen of cage maintenance, and the trip to the vet might be a good idea under the circumstances.

WM

[diabolique]

Thank you for the input.

I had a couple of other questions too please:

I tried feeder goldfish in the past and he was uninterested. Perhaps I am not presenting them correctly. What is your technique?

Where can i get the tomato worms, horned worms, etc..? Mail-order? I am in Canada.

As far as his cage setup is concerned I have him in a 10gallon tank. 1/2 is rocks and a fake plant and the other half is a water container with moss that is partially covered by a fake log. There is also a substrate heater.

I used to have him in a a 10gallon with a complete water base and rocks to create and shallow/deep/dry land effect however I found this setup difficult to clean and that is why I switched.

Can anyone reccommend a lower maintence setup that I could use for him so i will be able to change his water daily?

As far as the calcimize stuff goes i didn't realize that it was bad for him so i will stop using that immeadiately. What is a better way to deliever calcium to him?

I have also been using small abouts of the amphibian skin conditioner stuff from the same line about once a month. It safes safe for all frogs and amphibians on the bottle. Should I stop using this stuff too?

Also now that I have read your message I think he was just trying to soak off that waxy stuff in the water. Unfortunately I wasn't around to witness him going from point A to point B to do so.

Thats why i was kinda freaked out.

Now for my thoughts...

I don't really appreciate the insinnuation that I am a bad owner. I am trying to do the best that i can, when Chibi first came to me (from someone who was like "oh look, a frog i want it") about 2 years ago, i read all of the stuff that i could find on husbandry, i bought a few books. Truthfully I have found those books lacking in many respects. That would explain any blunders I have made. That is also the reason that i have posted questions on this and other forums. However it doesn't make for a welcoming environment when people start dumping on you for small husbandry mistakes.

The people who post questions here are obviously concerned for the welfare of thier pets, otherwise they wouldn't bother trying to fill the gaps in the knowledge that is out there. But when the responses that they get are bordering on hostile I think that this is causing people not to post here at all, either that or thay wait until things get really bad.

Therefore I understand your concern about the animals, but I think that the delievery of your information may be causing more harm than good, by causing people to feel intimidated, they look at the forums as a last resource when instead it should be a first resource.

There are huge gaps in the knowledge of reptile and amphibian husbandry out there. You people who post regularly have alot of valuble first-hand knowledge and experience to share. So you have 2 things that you should take under consideration.

First is that perhaps you should write a book in the husbandry area of your specialty, because the books out there (especailly in the case of these frogs) are not comprehensive in the least.
Secondly, on the forums please disseminate your information a little more gently, for the sake of everyone involved including the animals.

These are my thoughts and my questions.

Thanks
d

[eyespy]

diabolique, I do apologize for giving you the impression that I was calling you a bad keeper, I never meant to do so. I am very sorry. The look of escaping did alarm me though because I used to see a few dozen of these frogs come into the vet hospital every week. I'm afraid I came across too harshly while trying to stress that point and again I apologize.

Most of the pacmen found in the pet trade have high ammonia levels already from being shipped and stored in deli cups and the like, and so a toxed out frog isn't a sign that the keeper is a bad one. It's a deeper symptom of the fact that animals are kept in abysmal conditions so that the right profit margins are maintained as these frogs go from breeder, to jobber or distributor and then finally to the pet store. Many frogs are also poisoned from the high levels of hormones routinely injected into its parents to stimulate breeding. It's very rare to find a pacman that doesn't have alarmingly high ammonia or nitrate levels in its bloodstream anywhere in the pet trade.

When a frog toxes out, it gets very strong convulsions in its hind legs that make it look like it's jumping and trying to get out of its cage, when really it's in severe medical distress.

Should you ever see him do that again, it is a veterinary emergency. Kidney damage builds up every time toxins get that high, and it is irreversible. The best that can be done is to keep the frog well-hydrated so that the kidneys have the best possible support while using salt to try and draw enough fluids out of the body to take some of the toxins along with them. Fortunately kidneys are a very tough organ and can continue functioning relatively normally until a high level of damage occurs so many of these frogs are able to live a good long while.

I've always kept larger "land frogs" like pacmen, tomato, African bullfrogs, etc. in good plain dirt. Topsoil with no added pesticides, fertilizers, fungicides, etc. can be found at most plant nurseries or garden centers, or you can dig up your own from a remote location. Organic substrates with a decent level of protein and a low acid content help to support the growth of beneficial bactieria that will break down waste products so that you only have to do a total substrate change 3 or 4 times a year as long as you remove a good-sized "divot" around any fecal matter as needed. Then I add a water container about 3 or 4 times bigger than the frog and deep enough to hold an inch or two of water.

I've never really tried pushing horned frogs into goldfish because the quality of the feeder fish in the northeastern US is just dreadful. Goldfish are so loaded with parasites, fungus and ammonia that they aren't worth bothering with, they tend to cause more harm than good. I've spent lots of time picking flukes out of herps fed on goldfish hereabouts. Yet my friends in the southeastern or western states have pretty good luck with them. Even so, many pacmen never really get in the habit of eating fish. It's not a natural part of their diet and I've found that if a goldfish flopping around in his water dish doesn't stimulate his prey drive right from the start it usually never really latches on to them as a food source.

My favorite pacman, Captain Crunch, would take one hopper mouse on the first of the month and not need to eat again until the next month. For variety I'd give feeder insects the following month but mice were always his strong preference. He was an adult when I got him, and I had him for 26 years.

If you have a local herp society they might be able to help you find sources for the more exotic worms in your area. Fishermen can be helpful as well, as some of them breed their own bait and hornworms are becoming very popular with trout fishermen.

A shop-vac is an invaluable tool for frog keepers, you can vacuum out the water daily with very little effort. Or just have 2 water containers so you can easily switch them out. Most of the pacmen I've known prefer water that is only a couple of inches deep so you don't need anything that would be too heavy to change easily. Just use a little moss as an accent near the water that the frog can use as a hide, they far prefer burrowing down into dirt when given the chance.