View Full Version : questionable info on my Rainbow Boa
kay. So I was talking to a guy here in winnipeg who has had a rather extensive history regarding snakes and reptiles in general. He told me that basking lights weren't really necessary for rainbows. He even went so far as to say that a uv light wasn't really necessary as they are primarily nocturnal. He said all that i really needed was an under tank heater to keep part of the tank warm. What are your thoughts on this, cuz i really need to make an informed decision by friday of next week as that is when i am setting up the tank for her(i am getting her on sunday after).
NewLineReptile
08-08-03, 01:24 AM
I Think that he might be right i don't use UV light's on my snakes
just my lizards
Brandon
Stockwell
08-08-03, 01:54 AM
That info is correct! Most snakes need NO light, certainly not boids, as they are nocturnal.
My room is dark most of the time and I use rack systems with no lighting.
If you're talking Brazilian rainbows the biggest concern is humidity.. If they dry out they are dead.
Other Rainbow subspecies, like the common maurus (columbian rainbows) for example can tolerate much drier conditons.
Jeff_Favelle
08-08-03, 02:54 AM
If you use a light bulb in a Rainbow cage, you WILL kill your snake.
Time to read some caresheets. There's about a bazillion of them online.
Ohhhh Jeff, you're scaring me there... :(
I am using a 40w bulb in my tank.
I notice they are never basking under it though, they are mostly allways in their humid box on the cold side. (2 they have a humid box on each side on the tank)
I use a heat mat that's on only at night because it's really warm in my house. But usualy the 40w is on during the day.
Can I get rid of it completly and leave the heat mat on 24/24 ?
Don't they need a certain daylight period ?
Temps under the light don't exceed 85 degrees.
Thanks.
WYZ
Jeff_Favelle
08-08-03, 11:32 AM
Don't use a light bulb, don't use a light bulb, don't use a light bulb.
Yes keep the heat pad on 24/7. Your snake is telling you a million things by always being on the cold end and always being in the moist hide box.
Siretsap
08-08-03, 11:41 AM
Jeff,
I was thinking about building a rack that will contain my rubbermaids with all my snakes in it. At the moment I have 11 cornsnakes and 2 ball pythons. I was thinking of keeping the room temp at 30 celcius (it's always at around 78 to 80 farehneit normally anyways). Would I be able to use the room temp and not put any heatpads or heat tape in the racks? I will eventually buy some rainbows and maybe a jungle carpet.
Christine
08-08-03, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by Stockwell
That info is correct! Most snakes need NO light, certainly not boids, as they are nocturnal.
I wouldn't leave my brazilian in the dark or in dim light all the time. I think it's important for any reptile to have 12 hours of day time to sleep, and 12 hours of night time to be awake. My baby brazilian is currently living on a rack with my boyfriend's chondros, in his snake room, where a full spectrum bulb lights the room for 12 hours, then goes off for 12. When they are in the wild is certainly is not dark all the time - I think the daylight is an important part of trying to keep them comfortable and happy when attempting to mimic their natural environment.
Jeff_Favelle
08-08-03, 07:56 PM
I think it's important for any reptile to have 12 hours of day time to sleep, and 12 hours of night time to be awake.
YOU think its important, or it actually IS important? Because those could be two very very different things.
Jeff_Favelle
08-08-03, 08:01 PM
Jeff,
I was thinking about building a rack that will contain my rubbermaids with all my snakes in it. At the moment I have 11 cornsnakes and 2 ball pythons. I was thinking of keeping the room temp at 30 celcius (it's always at around 78 to 80 farehneit normally anyways). Would I be able to use the room temp and not put any heatpads or heat tape in the racks? I will eventually buy some rainbows and maybe a jungle carpet.
No no no no no no no.
30 Celsius is pretty damn close to the maximum range of temps you want for a BRB. If the room is 30, then the COLDEST spot in the cage is going to be 30!!!! That's no good. BRB's need a refuge of 74-78 on one side of their cage. This is what's known as a THERMAL GRADIENT and, in my opinion, is the single MOST important aspect of snake husbandry.
If you stick a BRB in a room that is 30 Celsius, you're gonna have a dead Rainbow. 86-88F on the warm end and 74-78F on the cool end is a PERFECT BRB cage.
Thanks Jeff, most of the care sheets i have seen have said nothing about lighting, if you could refer me to some i would be appreciative. also when you say moist hide box what do you mean. Should i have a hiding spot on both sides of my tank? Should I keep one of them particularly humid. Yes I am unknowledgable but i want to remedy that and I suck at finding relavent info on the web for any topic. It was a fluke that i found this website. Teach sensei for I am your grass hopper...
Jeff_Favelle
08-08-03, 10:17 PM
Yness, you're in good hands at this site!! Unfortunately, I gotta go watch my football game right now! BRB (as in, Be Right Back, LOL!!).
Christine
08-08-03, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
YOU think its important, or it actually IS important? Because those could be two very very different things.
This is true, it's my opinion based on observation and inductive logic. However, it's my induction from observing chondros, not my BRB (as she is very new and I haven't had enough time to watch her behavior yet!) At one point in time my boyfriend did not have a timer for the light in his snake room, so the amount of time they would get with the light on was irregular every day. Some days it just stayed dark. They seemed to get fairly upset and confused, a couple wouldn't eat (they are super picky anyway though, so it could have been another variable that caused that). Them getting upset obviously could have been due to the irregularity of the light, not the absence of it - they just seem to do much better when they have a day/night cycle. Personally, I can't sleep when the sun is up, so I'd be quite upset if it was my day time 24/7!
It's my understanding that snakes (unlike some other herps) do not need exposure to UVA and UVB light, but it's also my understanding that they do best with a normal day/night cycle. I've never read anything that's recommended otherwise.
Jeff - do you keep your snakes on a day/night cycle?
Jeff_Favelle
08-09-03, 04:20 AM
I do have my snakes on a day/night cycle, but not for photoperiod purposes. Just for heat purposes. They will hide when they want to, regardless of the intensity of light.
And BRB's are from very dark, dank, swampy areas. Its probably not too too bright in the middle of the Amazon. I don't think they need the light. I've bred them for 6 years without any extra light. They get indirect light for about 8 hours a day in the room, but that's it. I'll produce a 100 babies this year, so I'm pretty sure it isn't harming them.
ANIMAL5051
08-10-03, 03:16 PM
so if you use no light how are you sopoed to keep the tank or get the tank to 85 degrees i use lights but i never bake my snakes i make sure the temp is 85. i ve had them for over a year no problems yet but if there is some difrent i could do please help so i do no harm to my babys (snakes)
Christine
08-10-03, 03:54 PM
I use heat tape that goes up the whole side of the rack, and heats from one end of each enclosure so each enclosure has a warm and cooler end.
Jeff_Favelle
08-10-03, 05:27 PM
so if you use no light how are you sopoed to keep the tank or get the tank to 85 degrees
I just use heat tape and a thermostat, just like every other snake breeder in the world. Lights are for diurnal lizards. Not snakes.
ANIMAL5051
08-10-03, 09:22 PM
ok jeff that is fine thanks for the info but you do not need to make me look stupid i was only doing it with lights because every pet store i go into uses lights im not a breeder i have only had snakes for a little over a year i came to this site to make sure i give my animals the best possible enviorment and help with any questions i might have but there is no need to make me look dumb once agian i do appricate the info
jim
Jeff_Favelle
08-11-03, 12:55 AM
I didn't try to make you look dumb. I just told the facts. That's all. Sorry to talk the truth, I'll stop.
:D
ANIMAL5051
08-11-03, 06:54 AM
well i guess i took it the wrong way sorry
jim
Jeff_Favelle
08-11-03, 08:12 PM
No worries my man!! Cheers. Its all good.
Originally posted by ANIMAL5051
i was only doing it with lights because every pet store i go into uses lights
I can't stress the importance of NOT following pet store examples or advice. 99% of pet stores do not know what they are doing when it comes to reptile husbandry. So many animals suffer at the hands of the retail industry because of this. Most stores are only willing to pay minimum wage or close to, hence they have young and inexperienced people.
ANIMAL5051
08-12-03, 06:27 AM
as far as pets stores go i just moved to south florida and i went to a pet store and i got so mad at the way they had all of there reptiles set up.they where all neglected water dish to small for them and many other things. i wish i could have bought them all. LOL i think i will be posting more in here for info instead of following pet stores examples
thanks everyone
jim
Invictus
08-12-03, 05:27 PM
Ok, so it's obvious that snakes don't NEED light bulbs, but is there really any HARM in it? I've yet to read anything about light harming a snake. Light bulbs can be a very cheap heat source. And they are CSA approved. :)
Light bulbs suck because they suck the moisture out of an enclosure like you wouldn't believe.
Marisa
Jeff_Favelle
08-12-03, 08:19 PM
Ok, so it's obvious that snakes don't NEED light bulbs, but is there really any HARM in it? I've yet to read anything about light harming a snake.
Ok man, try putting a light in a Rainbow cage and email me after about 2 weeks with your dead Rainbow. :D :D :D
asphyxia
08-12-03, 08:54 PM
Well, I have a flouresent light fixture in a BRB's enclosure, I turn on when companys over and all is fine, and it looks really cool too.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/985feb_10_brb_lick.jpg
Brian
Christine
08-12-03, 10:04 PM
I've never used a light bulb, but it seems to me that using a bulb for heating would create quite a problem keeping humidity up.
Invictus
08-13-03, 12:26 AM
And how do you all suppose a light bulb differs from any other heat source? (And I'm looking for scientific answers here, people, not just the usual "in my experience" crap.) Technically, evaporation will occur at the same rate depending on temperature, regardless of the source of that heat. And by the way, I do know people who use light bulbs in GTP and Blood enclosures, which I have seen with my own eyes, and they don't have any problems with losing humidity. Isn't that a strange thing....
Well since you don't believe Jeff, who obviously has had large sucess breeding rainbow boas, then there is nothing anyone else can tell you to make you believe.
And "experience" may be crap to you but its the only way to see things work. Go ahead try it out with a high humidity snake in a custom or tank enclosure and see for yourself. If it works so great as you say, wow great for you. But I highly doubt this will change the opinion on lights which is shared by the majority of herpers because they have simply tried it out.
Marisa
Jeff_Favelle
08-13-03, 01:50 AM
(And I'm looking for scientific answers here, people, not just the usual "in my experience" crap.)
Wrong way to go about keeping reptile my man. Science has done jack sh*t for reptile-keeping. Reptile keeping and breeding has evolved and advanced ONLY because of record keeping, observations, and trial and error. NOTHING ELSE. Don't kid yourself. Science is for theory and for hypothesizing. Observation and ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING is what drives reptile husbandry to progress. Do tell, what do all your "science" books say about breeding Boelen's Pythons? I'm dying to know.
Read these two quotes by one of the best in the biz. I hope he doesn't get mad for me posting them here:
Posted by FR on Wed - Jul 23 - 10:46am:
In Reply to: I wonder? posted by Andrew Owen on Tue - Jul 22 - 11:48pm:
Wow, that was a bit revealling for both of us. First you, it seems you thought you actually learn for reading(research?????) I thought you learned from doing(my revealling part). I thought reading was to make you aware of something, not actually to know something. I also thought, research included the actual events of doing as well as reading and other comunications. But then what do I know?
I sometimes get the feeling that a reptile that constantly eats food backwards is one or two blocks shy of a load. But then, I believe most living things are not perfect. It also could be simply because the food item was not big enough to make a difference. Give that individual larger prey and see what happens. Monitors are good at only doing whats necessary.
Yea, monitors are a case of the more you see the less you know. They don't do the same research we do, they just go by their book. Frank
You see, animals are living things that are dynamic and ever-changing. Whether or not a light bulb dries out a cage at the exact same rate that a heat pad does is irrelevant. Heck, its not even important, at least not to me. I only care about breeding reptiles and selling the babies. That's it. So I do what has been proven to work and I avoid the things that have been PROVEN to NOT work. How hard can that be?
And a light bulb will dry out a cage faster because it heats the air (ambient). An UTH just heats the ground in a particular spot within a cage. A light bulb heats up the WHOLE cage (yikes).
And GTP's and Bloods are NOT Rainbows. Both those snakes like it hotter and GTP's like it warmer. GTP's are just green Carpet pythons. Nothing more. They aren't delicate like everyone thinks they are.
How's that for science?
Stockwell
08-13-03, 02:28 AM
OH yes, nothing like a "Frank" quote Jeff!(;o)
There seems to be a bit of an attitude developing on this thread, so I'll play my usual role of
devils advocate here.
Different people keep and have success with animals different ways.
I have produced hundreds of Brazilians myself in the 80's and 90's back when very few were in Canada.
I kept mine on WET peat moss.. Jeff and many other good breeders have success with damp newspaper.
I kept my snakes in near darkness. Jeff has some lighting as a heat source only..but advocates darkness as well
The important technical scientific things here are that Brazilians need humid if not wet environments, with cooler temps than many boids. They dessicate quickly, and I've killed a few myself by accidentally allowing them to dry out.
Dehydration and death is also why Brazilians maintained a price of $225 US for 20 years...
It's only recently that people are keeping them alive, and don't need replacements the year after.
I have had lights on Brazilians,years back,
as I recall I tossed some in my old Ball Python breeding cages, and those cages had COMPACT FLUORESCENTS!!! some of the first ones on the market in fact. Compact fluoresents produce tons of light while consumming much less power then incandescent bulbs.
These cages however also had subterranial retreats which where jumbo kitty litter pans full of wet peat moss, and these were under the cages, accessible through a hole in the cage floor(The applegate technique)The snakes would usually go there if the lights were on
The whole key to Brazilians is keeping them cool and keeping them wet...Light bulbs tend to work against both these key husbandry requirements
In general herpers hear "light bulbs" and stick in 60 or 100 watters not realizing the how many degress above ambient that will raise a cage with restricted air flow, which is required to keep the moisture up.
Jeff's advice to NOT use light bulbs is Damn good advice, because more times than not, the snake will end up over heated, dried out and toast!
If you absolutely want light go with low wattage compact Fluorescents or a small normal Fluorescent but you have to wire the ballast outside the cage.
I have done this, but I work with electricity every day. Fluorescent ballasts create more heat then the bulb... Leave the ballast outside..
put a switch on the bulbs and I recommend turning them on for viewing only unless you're absolutely sure they wont heat the cage above 85F on a hot summer day.
Jeff and I are just trying to help...Repeat business is always welcome! (;o)
Jeff_Favelle
08-13-03, 10:59 AM
Exactly what Roy said. Isn't that the way it usually is though?? LOL!!
Excellent post. That should be an FAQ for Rainbows posted permanently here somewhere!! :D
Invictus
08-13-03, 03:04 PM
I was not for one minute disputing the husbandry of rainbow boas. I know as well as anyone else what they require. What I was disputing was the science of heat and evaporation, not the science of reptile care.
Secondly, my post was one part genuine curiosity (seeing if anyone could actually explain this miraculous loss of humidity scientifically), one part attempting to dispel was I felt was a myth, and one part being devil's advocate for the purposes of sparking some interesting conversation.
All too often on this forum, I have seen GROSS exaggerations. Like how this and that is a "death trap" or how you will end up with a "dead snake" just because your husbandry is less than ideal. I've seen too much of that around here, and I was in part trying to see if anyone had some science to back up their opinions. Evidently no one does.
Jeff, your comment about how a light bulb heats ambiently as opposed to a focused area is at least MORE scientific than many of the reposnses you get to some scientific questions 'round here. I personally hypothesize that a focused heat source will drain the humidity MUCH faster than an ambient one, ie, an undertank heater will cause MORE evaporation than a light bulb, since it is directly heating the moistened source. I haven't proven this yet, so it is merely a hypothesis based on what I know of simple science. I very well could be wrong.
Roy, as for your comment about 60 or 100 watt bulbs. That's crazy. Of course that will overheat a snake. I've never recommended anything more than a 40 if the bulb is inside the viv, 60 if it is elevated outside the viv. So you're right, in a case like that, you're formulating a disaster.
On the other hand, I'd be VERY skeptical about even a 100 watt bulb being able to drain the humidity from a viv with restricted air flow IF the substrate was misted once a day.
So my point here is this: Using a light bulb will not kill a BRB. Using a light bulb and not moistening the substrate enough will kill a BRB. Not keeping the humidity up will kill a BRB. Frying a BRB will kill a BRB. Using a light bulb in a viv, if used at the right wattage and humidity levels monitored, will NOT kill a BRB. See my point guys?
Buy why even attempt to use something that A. takes a perfect wattage to make sure its not too hot, B. Takes even MORE misting, and C. causes you to have to restrict airflow to the point that none is going in just to keep humiditiy?
I just don't understand why you would want to use it when heating pads are proven to work better with many species. If you think a heating pad evaps more water than a bulb, then go ahead and try it. I can tell you I switch 8 snakes from bulbs to heating pads and tape and haven't had a humidity issue since. For most it didn't matter but I cannot even imagine my BP using a light. The humidity would be fluctuating all over the place and only be high enough (during shed time) when I mist.
I am no boa expert AT ALL. But IMHO its just too plain simple to see why heating pads should almost always be used over bulbs.
Marisa
Invictus
08-13-03, 03:50 PM
I'm also not disputing that a heating pad might be better. I was disputing that people around here are prone to gross exaggeration and saying that one way is a "death trap" when the FACT of the matter is, it will work just fine, but there may be a better way. You have to remember, there are a lot of people who are new here and take our word as gospel truth. I want to make sure we are giving them the truth. That's all.
Now as for the air flow thing, snakes do not require a lot of air flow. The gap between the sliding glass doors will introduce more than enough new air into the terrarium. Besides, if you open it up every couple of days, be it for cleaning, handling, misting, or whatever, you're introducing plenty of new air.
Now as for the whole light bulb debate goes in general, here's something else that works: Shine a light bulb down right over a tub of water. Not only do you get the heat in the terrarium, but you cause the water to evaporate and cause humidity. I know someone who does this with his chondros, and you'd be amazed at how successful the results are. (Easy 90% humidity with no loss, and he does have a vent on the side.)
Originally posted by Invictus
Ihere. I personally hypothesize that a focused heat source will drain the humidity MUCH faster than an ambient one, ie, an undertank heater will cause MORE evaporation than a light bulb, since it is directly heating the moistened source. I haven't proven this yet, so it is merely a hypothesis based on what I know of simple science.
Gonna have to disagree with your theory. All too often UTH are used to *increase* the humidity due to the fact that they cause the moisture to evaporate in to the air thus increasing the humidity. When you have a light, perhaps the susbtrate may stay moister longer, but it dries out the air, decreasing the humidity, and defeating the purpose in keeping BRB*
Invictus
08-13-03, 11:50 PM
So are you telling me that the sun (which would be a great representation of a light bulb), which heats the city of Houston, TX up to 115 degrees dries the air? LOL.. the average 110% humidity they get there would pretty much dispel that theory. An overhead heat source does NOT dry the air. The only thing that can dry the air is if the moisture moves somewhere else. Water doesn't disappear. It may go up (evaporation) but cannot disappear. It will simply move to an area of less concentration. (Diffusion). If it goes up and cannot move anywhere, you get condensation. And anyone who has ever built or used an airtight incubator can vouch for this.
Thus, even if the air did dry out, if you have a light bulb over a tub of water, the rate of evaporation will likely far exceed the rate of diffusion. Thus, there will be an ample supply of moisture in the air which will move to any area of lesser concentration.
Did I mention light bulbs are also CSA approved? :)
Jeff_Favelle
08-14-03, 01:50 AM
Did I mention light bulbs are also CSA approved?
My BBQ is CSA approved. So is my blow torch. What the hell does that have to do with anything? I'm surely not going to heat my Rainbow cages with them.
You are not understanding Rainbow husbandry. Rainbows are from a relatively cool, dark place in South America. They love nothing more than to sit in a pool of coolish water that is dark and not much happens. Now, you want to introduce a light source over top of that water dish? The snake won't like it. Simple. Its evolved to sit in rotting logs, under wet leaves, and in muck in the bottom of a rainforest. And now you want to use a light bulb because YOU think its better and YOU think its easier to accomplish the things that YOU want in a cage?
This is where reptile husbandry goes wrong. This is why monitors have only been bred in the last 8-10 years. This is why Boeleni are still not bred at all. This is why people are having trouble with Diamonds. People telling snakes what they think they should want.
Now, as for your heat question. There are 3 types of heat transfer and we are talking about 2 in our little discussion. You, my friend, are advocating "radiant" heat. That is, heat transfered by objects that are NOT touching. A light bulb, in this case, heats EVERYTHING in the cage, including the ambient air. I am talking about "conductive" heat transfer. That is, heat transfered by objects that are touching. Like my heat pad. It sits under the wood, heats the wood, the snake sits on the wood and heats itself up to a desired temperature, and then moves. That's how its supposed to work. What's more effective/efficient? A wood stove to heat up a room, or a reclining chair with heat cables that you can sit in and warm up? Answer: too obvious to mention. Not what would dry out the room faster? Still obvious, but for those who don't know, I've never seen a heated chair dry out a room! RADIANT HEAT WILL DRY OUT AIR FASTER THAN CONDUCTIVE HEAT!!!! Why is that? Because radiant heat travels through the air! Conductive doesn't.
As for Texas being 110% humidity (how's that possible), many many many many many other factors are at play other than the damn sun in the sky! LOL!
Moral is? Who cares what science says? I care about how many babies I get a year and how healthy my animals are for the least amount of work. And actually, its not even about less work. Its about having a setup that allows myself to make the most mistakes, and still get away with it. That way, things don't die.
Jeff_Favelle
08-14-03, 01:54 AM
And I'm not saying light bulbs don't work. In fact, I use TWO 200W light bulbs in my dwarf monitor cages. And there is constantly condensation on the sides. Its not about condensation though. Its about the heat source accomplishing things and allowing the animal to do what its designed to do. Light bulbs don't allow Rainbows to do that. Just because it works with one snake, doesn't mean it will work with all snakes. Why would you think that? If I kept my Ball Pythons as moist as my Rainbows, they'd surely suffer. But if my Rainbows can deal with the moisture, why can't the Ball Pythons? Because they have evolved differently. And Rainbows have evolved to not like light bulbs in their cages. Try it and find out. I'll have replacement babies waiting here for you. $400 for unrelated pairs.
:D
Stockwell
08-14-03, 02:05 AM
Light bulbs might be CSA approved but they still cause more herp fires than any other heat source. Just ask Ryan and Shiela of Scales.
I'm aware of 2 herp fires in the last couple of years, both the result of light bulbs.
Flexwatt isn't CSA approved but there is politics behind that and to start with there is currently no standard for carbon film heaters in Canada.(pers conv, with Calorique last year)
Even if submitted for an LR file, the product cannot be approved until there is an applicable standard.
This is slightly off the original topic, but the dangers of light bulbs are worth mentioning here. It really worries me seeing herpers Viv and room pics full of light bulbs on clamp supports with reflectors... Those are "DEATH TRAPS"
There Invictus!(;o) Is that what you mean?.. LOL
I'm serious though.. People need to be much more cautious about using Bulbs because they cause fires , if they fall on substrate, floor, or on wooden cages.
Light bulbs in reflector sockets should never simply be placed on cage tops, as they fall when cats and dogs bump them, or get moved to unsafe places when lids are lifted, then not put back..
They need permanent protected installation!
Roy you are right about that warning.
I use a 60 watt bulb in a metal reflector in my Golden Geckos cage. It's in my reptile room, its also attached with a clamp and in a place I thought was sturdy...my roomates Green Iguana busted through his cage one morning really early...
I got up to check on the herps and saw Jub Jub (iguana) out and the metal reflector with bulb on sitting "face" down on the floor. I ran over and it was burning the carpet. If I had slept in or not checked on the herps in the morning my house could have burnt down. I am left with a huge black burnt spot, and some cage changes for the iguana and a lesson learned.
Marisa
Invictus
08-14-03, 09:48 AM
I agree with the metal reflectors. I do have one on my BCI, but that's because he's in a corner of the house that no one ventures, and I have no free-roaming animals in the house. That thing gets HOT... even hotter than the heat bulb in it. I'd never use one if there were ANY risk of it falling on the floor and lighting the carpet on fire.
(I'll bet my life that half of you just now imagined a flaming JCP!) hehehe
Stockwell
08-14-03, 10:02 AM
Marisa, it happens alot...Herpers should never use those clamp on
lights.. The clamps don't hold and The danger is real
Use fluorescents when ever possible, and as I previsously mentioned, those new small spiral compact fluorescents will screw into a normal light socket, produce tons of light while using much less power, hardly get hot, and last many times longer than normal bulbs. They even produce some UV
I've got them throughout my house now and they make a difference on the old hydro bill.
There is only one disadvantage, which is minor, but please be aware that..... Like any fluorescent, they cannot be dimmed!!
Invictus
08-14-03, 10:21 AM
Jeff - A few points here. One is, heat CANNOT DRY OUT AIR. It is simply not possible. The only way to dry out air is to A) Turn the moisture into vapor, which, as anyone knows, means raising it to boiling point, or B) Find a way to move the moisture to an area of lower concentration. (ie, a room dehumidifier). Heat, be it radiant or conductive, does not turn moisture into vapor. It simply causes it to move up. Once it cannot evaporate any further, it will condense until it cools, then it will fall. So tell me, where does the moisture go if you heat air with a light bulb, hmmm?
And again, Jeff... I'm not disputing reptile care with you. You probably have more knowledge in your little finger than I have in my whole body about BRBs.
My point about light bulbs being CSA approved is this - if I use flexwatt in my house and it causes a fire, not only to I void my tenant's insurance, but I void my landlord's house and proerty insurance as well. That's a bill I can't afford.
So I'll concede that for BRB's SPECIFICALLY, a light bulb is probably not a good idea. I will not concede, however, that it is a bad idea for all snakes, or even most snakes. And I most certainly will not concede to light bulbs being able to dry out air, because that is simply the most preposterous thing I have ever heard on this forum, and it completely defies simple science.
RueThee
08-14-03, 04:26 PM
you use a UTH (under tank heater). My BRB tank is lighted with a 9" under the counter flourescent fixture. The light has a cover which keeps it from being very bright.
RueThee
08-14-03, 04:31 PM
record keeping, observations, and trial and error
That IS science.
As "preposterous" as it may be, it has been my experience that light bulbs dry out air. Its not the light bulb itself, but the heat. Heat dries... (people use it to dry out foods in ovens, to dry their hair, etc). If you are just heating the surface, the surface is the thing that will dry... if you heat the air, it will dry that out much faster than it would naturally. As for Texas, is it not incredibly dry there? I don't know about Dallas, but I used to have a friend in El Paso and she said it was hot and dry. Same with friends that live right next door in Arizona... hot and dry. Of course if you put heat over water it will evaporate in to the air, no disputing that, however it will dry out at a much quicker rate than if it was the heat below making it evaporate.
Jeff_Favelle
08-16-03, 01:51 AM
That's the problem Invictus. Its not dry air. Its the fact that warm air carries more moisture than cooler air. THAT'S SCIENCE. If the air is warmer, then it has the capacity to take moisture from other parts of the cage (substrate, water dishes, the ANIMAL ITSELF!). I don't care if you have 200% relative humidity (RH). It's not about humidity. That's why I don't measure it. I'm not raising airborn water droplets. I raise snakes. If the air is hot enough, it can suck the water right out of the cage. Air escapes from the cage, substrate and water dishes don't. So if the warm, moist air is escaping the cage, where does the moisture go? OUTSIDE OF THE CAGE! And what happens to the cage? IT DRIES OUT!
Don't believe me? Try this. Put 2 cages of equal size with paper towel in the bottom. Put a 40W, 60W, 100W (whatever) light bulb in ONE cage. Wet the paper towel and turn the light on. See which cage gets drier faster. Now why is that? Heat can't make the air dry??
So simple its aggravating. Now, if that's hard to rationalize, and believe me, to some people it is, then now don't you see where past people's trial-and-error and hard work and observations and and and and and come in to play?
I do.
Cheerio...........
:D
Invictus
08-16-03, 12:21 PM
Linds - Houston is right on the seaboard, so the humidity there is absolutely killer. (I have a lot of friends there, and they constantly complain about the humidity). Dallas is further away and at a higher elevation, so yes, it's pretty dry there. Funny how that works, eh?
Jeff - Again, what you're talking about is simple evaporation. And yes, if the top of your cage is open, of course you're going to lose way more moisture than you will if the cage has very little in the way of air exchange. My point was this:
- Putting a light bulb over top of a tub of water is an AWESOME way of getting a constant supply of moisture into the cage. I know many people who do this, and I'm sorry Jeff, but IT WORKS. For chondros as well as BRBs, and I'm sorry Jeff, but you are not the only BRB breeder out there. I know several. They use light bulbs. They have healthy, happy BRBs.
- I currently have a tub of water in my BCI cage right under the heat lamp. Yes, a lot of the humidity is escaping, but not all of it. His substrate is actually damp to the touch. (He's shedding right now, btw).
- Regardless of how much humidity you are losing, it's a matter of replacing it. If you keep the substrate moistened, the light bulb will cause that moisture to evaporate. So you re-moisten it. Problem solved.
You are still denying science here Jeff, not explaining it. What you are talking about in your little experiment up there is a no-brainer. You're talking about draining humidity without replacing it. Well DUH! Of course the paper towel will dry out! So why don't you try this:
Cage 1 - Open screen top with light bulb shining down on moistened substrate (Aspen.)
Cage 2 - Open screen top with light bulb shining down on a tub of water with moistened substrate. (Also aspen)
You'll get about 4-5 days of constant humidity, even with the light bulb on it, as long as there is a supply of water to heat up and thus cause evaporation. Cage 1 has nothing to replace its humidity, so of course it will dry out.
You still have not convinced me that light bulbs are dangerous to snakes. Keep trying though. :D
Jeff_Favelle
08-17-03, 04:23 PM
4-5 days? That sucks. I have over 90 ADULT snakes. I don't have time to muck around changing the humidity dishes 2x a week. I spray a Rainbow cage once, and its good for 2 weeks.
I don't care if there are other Rainbow breeders out there and I am ALWAYS the first guy to tell you that there are a million ways to do things. Big deal. The question is, what's the easiest way? After that, the question is, what's the easiest way for your experience level(s). I always give advice with the knowledge that the person receiving the advice is going to screw up. Screwing up with light bulbs is fatal almoat always. So I don't advise people to use them. Its simple.
I could breed Komodo Dragons outdoors in the Arctic with enough heat lamps and the proper setup. But why would I? Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean a damn thing. What matters is what you can do the most efficiently and what setup allows you to make the most mistakes. Because 99% of the keepers here will make mistakes.
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