absolute min. cage size for 2 beardies??

[sapphire_moon]

My parents.........*rollseyes* they go by one book, and one book only. They have 2 beardies in a cage that is a little smaller than a 40 gall breeder. No heat gradiant, and not even a stick on thermometer.....
One is big, about adult size, the other one is a couple of in. smaller. Even though they are both the same age. The smaller one I noticed is kind of wrinkly....and when lieing flat on her belly is thin....the other one is fat and non wrinkly.....I said to mist them...my parents said "they don't need misting, the book said so." I wanted to slap her stupid. Although I think she already is. I know nothing about beardies so wrinklyness of the skin may be common. Or not. Please tell me what you think....

[eyespy]

Wrinkly skin is definitely not common and is usually a sign of either dehydration or sudden weight loss. Your advice to mist them was very good and they should throw that book away!!

Desert animals get daily "dew baths" when cool night air condenses against the ground every morning as the sun heats it, so they can lap up water every day. Plus Pogona vitticeps are classed as semi-arid animals because the vast majority of them aren't naturally found in true desert conditions. Beardies need water!

I feel that the smallest acceptable cage size is 4x2x2, and that will accomodate 1 or 2 adult dragons that are less than 23 1/2 inches total length. Beardies don't tend to do well in cages that make them curl their tails in order to turn and lie across the narrow side, they either become quite inactive to avoid touching cage walls all the time, or can even develop nerve damage in their tail base from having it compressed all the time (kind of like a carpal tunnel syndrome). Giving them the space to stretch out in full no matter which direction is a bare minimum size in my book.

[sapphire_moon]

Their tails do not curl......as they are not that big yet. The biggest one is about 6-8 in....the smallest one 4-6 in........They don't listen to me. I even said "what about the people I talk to that deal with them and breed them.....they don't care. I don't even go by my "ball python manual".....It is a great begginer book. But I would rather take an experienced herpers advice than a books...whom I don't even know the author of!!!

[eyespy]

I'm glad they are still small enough that the cage isn't too confining yet, and hope your parents will consider that in the long run giving animals room enough to move around, get decent exercise, and have nice large zones at various temperatures means healthier animals with longer lifespans.

Plus a wood, plastic, or melamine cage with sliding glass doors is waaaaaayyyyyy more energy efficient than any glass tank so you can heat a relatively huge cage for around the same electric bill.

[sapphire_moon]

They are in a wood cage with a glass front...(an old snake cage) and they cut the entire middle of the lid out and put screen in.......I hope they listen to me to. They seem to think I know nothing....I feel so bad for the little guys :( .....There is nothing I can do though.......But I am thinking about going in there whenever possible (when they are not home) and misting them.......I don't even know their temps or anything!!!!! Even I, Whom knows NOTHING about beardies knew that the little one is dehydrated or something..............:( poor things!!!

[eyespy]

Yeah, my heart bleeds for that poor little doofus. Seeing as how the big one is so much bigger, there could be starvation going on, too. When the bigger dragon has that much size advantage on a smaller cagemate, the tiny baby often is too afraid to eat for fear of being attacked. Even if nobody sees actual bullying the larger one can be asserting dominance. Ideally they should be separated, but I can just imagine how they'd react to that advice.

I've known kids that have made anonymous calls to their local animal control office to report these situations. Here in PA it's called abuse by neglect when caging conditions are such that injury or illness could result. Fines and/or confiscation are the penalty. It's a harsh step and you might not feel that it would be good to do that in your own situation, but it's an idea to keep in the back of your head should the little one become visibly weak.

[sapphire_moon]

I would. But we don't have anything like that here. Or I would have done it for the dogs to. They insist on feeding table scraps every night......:( .........I know this is off topic. But when I moved and came back, my little asho lapso/dashound's belly was dragging on the floor!!!!! They had been feeding her table scraps every since I had been gone even though I gave them specific instructions not to!!!! But she is getting back in shape, and her belly is way off the floor now....
They don't listen to anyone. I even had my vet talk to them....I believe someone here has a saying on the bottom of their posts that says "Don't buy something you can't afford, it could turn out nasty!" Well thats more than the truth.......and the animals are suffering to when you do something like that!

[RaVeNo888o]

just curious...why do they have these beardies?? do they like them? if they do, then I would think they would take their best interest in mind and find out some more info..even if they dont believe you, if they cared for thier animals, they could at least prove you wrong or something. If they care, they should seek out other info, since one sourse is never enough.
And if they dont like them..then they should be keeping them..

i hope you knew what i meant lol

[eyespy]

Sure you do! I looked up Kansas animal cruelty laws, and yours are easier to work with than here in PA. In my state reptiles and birds aren't given the same protection as domesticated animals or farm animals.

It looks like all you have to do is talk to the police, county public health officers, animal control officers on county or city levels, or even a willing veterinarian to report animal cruelty.

Not that I'm recommending this is what you do, it's a very harsh measure that can cause a rift in the family. But alerting your parents as to what is illegal in your state might make for a more open discussion as to what constitutes cruelty.

http://www.accesskansas.org/kahd/didyouknow.html

[sapphire_moon]

Why do most people get reps? Because they are either "cute" or "cool looking".......well this one was because "they are cute"......They wouldn't listen to me even if I had the fbi standing right there.........Why do you think I can't wait to get out of here????It's not just the weather........the people suck to.

[Pia]

I don't know what book your parents bought but they need to get a new one. I recommend "The Bearded Dragon Manual". It is available at many pet stores and online. Bearded dragons can grow up to 2 ft in length although the average is 18"-20". What they are in now will be way too small in a couple of months. Although they are not overly active, they do need room to move and climb to maintain muscle tone and psychological well being. The absolute smallest enclosure for 2 adult beardies would be 4'x2'x2', and this is only for a male and female or two females - two males should never be housed together for aggression reasons. They need a heat source as well as full spectrum lighting (bulbs from a pet store specifically for reptiles not those from a hardware store) and they should be changed every 6-8 months because although they still give off light, the UV rays diminish over time. This lighting and diet is crucial for proper developement.They are big eaters and need lots of food - crickets, worms, and lots of vegetables as well as calcium and vitamin supplemements. They do need to be misted daily and have a fresh, shallow dish of water in their enclosure as well as places to hide and rest. It sounds like the one is dehydrated and is being bullied and not getting it's share of food. It will die a slow and horrible death. Your parents may have a very old book, since reptile keeping is relatively new and new discoveries in husbandry techniques are being developed frequently (meaning what was thought to be correct 5 yrs ago has now been proved wrong). I'm starting to ramble here so I will try to wrap it up quickly. Bottom line - if your parents aren't willing to educate themselves and spend the time and money required to care for them properly, these beardies should be confiscated. It's a drastic measure, but perhaps a call to a humane organization is required. This may prompt them to take proper care of them or give them to someone who will. I applaud you for taking the steps you have, hopefully it will have an effect. Let us know how things progress. Hope I didn't sound too harsh.

[sapphire_moon]

Actually they have "The Bearded Dragon Manual". And we just found out today that the biggest one is the female....and the smaller one a male. And the male has weak back legs......they know nothing, and now they want to attempt to breed them!!!!!!! I don't know what I'm going to do with them.....they have no clue what they are doing!

[Pia]

To my knowledge, there is only one bearded dragon manual available. It is written by Phillipe de Vosjoli, Robert Mailloux, Susan Donaghue, Roger Klingenberg and Jerry Cole. If this is the book they have, then they need to read it again. Are they positive it is male and female? For a beginner it can be tricky to tell at that size. To be sure, you can have a vet probe them. As far as breeding goes, there are many issues that need to be addressed before they even think about that. They are nowhere near the right size/age for breeding and are certainly not in good enough health. Is there a reptile veterinarian in your area or a breeder you could talk to that may be willing to look at the dragons and go over requirements with your parents?

[eyespy]

There are 3 versions of that book. The Bearded Dragon Manual was the first edition and is quite old for herp husbandry, it was written sometime in the 1980's. I believe that was just Robert Mailloux and Phillipe de Vosjoli but don't have a copy of that version handy to double check.

They did a rewrite called General Care and Maintenance of the Bearded Dragon that came out in 1997 and had brand new sections on nutrition, disease and parasitology. It was an extensive rewrite and I'm told there are big differences in husbandry information between the 2 books.

Now there's a third edition availabe, and the title went back to The Bearded Dragon Manual which came out in 2001. It's mainly a cosmetic change from the 1997 edition except the addition of Jerry Cole's part.

If his parents have the old one, they probably are following the book to the letter. It was written so long ago that much of the information in the following 2 editions wasn't yet common knowledge outside of Australia.

Even now, we keepers in Europe and North America are all expressing astonishment at a recent study of the gut contents of bearded dragons in Australia. They find almost all plant-based foods and very little animal-based foods. Quite contrary to our conventional wisdom.

Things are constantly changing! :D

[sapphire_moon]

Yes they just had them sexed. And the little male's back leg muscles aren't as strong as they should be. Nope, no one around here that is "certified" that they will listen to. only people that WANT them to breed them so they will sell them to them so they can sell them for money......you know, a pet shop..:( I think the little male is going to die anyways. Simply because I think the female hogs the food.....but I don't get listened to!

[sapphire_moon]

And they feed crickets and lettuce,and sometimes carrots....

[Pia]

That's a good start. There are many other vegetable and some fruits they can have as well. Mealworms are also a good addition to the diet. These foods should be coupled with full spectrum lighting, vitamin and calcium supplements, and proper humidity and temperature. I have the the most recent edition of The Bearded Dragon Manual, but as eyespy pointed out, there are two older editions. If they have the first one, the info will be different. Do what you can for the beardies and keep working on your parents, hopefully they will come around and things will work out. Keep us posted. :-)

[eyespy]

I wouldn't give mealies to the guy with the hind leg problem. They have about 9 times as much phosphorus as they do calcium and can make muscle, bone or joint problems worse. They are also fairly hard to digest and would further dehydrate these poor little ones.

[sapphire_moon]

I'm trying.......I think I have them looking for another cage to seperate them. But I'm not sure.......:( People never listen to me? Believe me, before I got with my partner and was taught by her, I had absolutely no idea how to properly take care of a dog, much less something more temp/humid specific than a snake!!

[sapphire_moon]

Well bad news........:( They don't plan on ever seperating them........ :( Should I hit them over the head with a baseball bat? They refuse to listen to me at all...I can't even call the humane society(or aspca or someone like them) because (off topic) I had to leave my dog here when I left before. I came back and her belly was hitting the ground! :( it's not now......but she is still pretty overweight because no one will listen to me or my partner about not feeding them scraps (people food) And I'm afraid they will fine me or take away my dogs!

[Pia]

Sorry to hear that saphire moon. I'm fresh out of ideas :-( You tried and like I said, do what you can for them when you are there. Take care.

[sapphire_moon]

Ya, which isn't much. They have their room locked. So I can only sneak in there every so often........:( Poor things........They can't even take care of their outside dog, much less something that has more specific set of requirements to it!!!!!!!! :( :( :( :(

[J-Man]

That's horrible. Especially the fact that they keep the door locked... almost like they don't want them the be happy. I've seen this in a lot of parents, something as joyful as a pet (or 2) can turn into a means of power.

Well if I were you I would definitely have the beardies taken away. But that's only because I'm hard as a rock when it comes to issues starting "rifts" in the family... that's what having a mom who acts like you don't exist will do to you. I'd say screw it, if they're going to be unreasonable, irresponsible, bad role models and CRIMINALS than I would NOT feel awkward or uncomfortable in the slightest bit.

[sapphire_moon]

I wouldn't feel bad in getting them taken away either. Except for the fact that when I was gone they WAY OVER FEED my dog, and made her extremly obese..:( and I would get my dog taken away as well. And believe me, if I had the money to get out of here..........I would. Thats why me and my partner are saving to move........out of state! And believe me, my mother is just like that to.......... And my grandmother likes to try and buy me off.......

[Rich]

Hello,
Just wanted to clarify something that Pia had written. When using the term "full spectrum" lighting, there should be some clarification. "Full spectrum" does not mean that the light necessarily emitts uva and uvb rays. These are the rays most important to the bearded dragon. It can also mean,and often does, that the bulb emits a "full spectrum" of light. This would be in regards to the spectrum of color that light produces and has no reference to uv rays.
Flourescent tubes and merc. bulbs emit uv rays in the highest amounts. Normal "full spectrum" bulbs do not deliver enough uv output,if any!

[Pia]

Good point Rich. Perhaps specialty flourescent reptile light would have been a better way to put it. Use one from a pet store such as Zoo Med Repti sun or Reptiglo 8.0 from Hagen, not the ones from hardware stores that say they are for reptile use They don't have the proper percentage of uva/uvb rays.