Just Realized I Have a Moral Problem with Feeding Live [Archive]

Ladyhawk

08-04-03, 03:08 AM

When I picked up my female Louisiana milksnake, the breeder gave me a live pinkie to feed to her when I got home. When I was younger, I wouldn't have had a problem with this, but I am growing softer with age. I understand that life feeds on life, but I would prefer humanely-killed thawed food, or even those snake steak sausages that are new on the market. I doubt dog and cat owners like to think about exactly what is in their pets' bowls. And some of us don't like to think about exactly what is in that Big Mac with extra cheese.

Anyway, the yearling milksnake did a pretty pathetic job of constriction and tried to eat the pinkie tail-first. She couldn't quite swallow it. After she wrestled with it for a long time, I couldn't stand it anymore. On the one hand I was concerned about the snake because I could see she was going into contortions, trying to force a breech-feed into her stomach. On the other hand, I hated seeing the mouse suffer. As it went further and further into the snake's mouth, it had a harder and harder time breathing. Finally I couldn't stand watching any longer. The snake wasn't making any progress. The pinkie was suffering.

I don't know if I did the right thing or not, but I held onto the pinkie until the snake spat it out. After that, the snake was stressed and didn't feel like trying again. That poor little mouse lived through the whole ordeal, though its skin had been torn by the snake's small teeth. With no mother here and its skin torn, I figured the pinkie was done for, so I washed it in warm water and fed it to Bayou to put it out of its misery.

I didn't like watching that. Not one bit.

Now the female Arizona Mt. King isn't feeding. I don't know how much of it to chalk up to her being in new surroundings and how much to chalk up to her not liking frozen mice. I would really rather not feed live if I can help it.

I was raised in an environment where people considered animals mere tools for enjoyment. So, even though it tugged at my heart strings, I stuffed it down deep when my family and their friends purposely hurt animals.

When I was a teenager, I actually ended up with a pet rat one of my snakes didn't eat and it was one of the best pets I've ever had. Rats are intelligent and make great pets, much better pets than hamsters, btw.

I just don't get my jollies watching rodents suffer long, fearful deaths in the coils of a snake. I didn't have problems feeding humanely-killed snake food. I just hate to see an animal in pain and fear.

In a perfect world, life wouldn't feed on life, but we don't live in a perfect world.

Back in November, I saw a killer whale eat a yearling sea lion. This kind of thing happens in huge numbers, every day, all over the world. Sometimes I wish it were otherwise. But this is nature's way and it cannot be changed. Carnivores can't be forced to accept a vegetarian diet. They cannot digest vegetation properly. If we forced our carnivorous pets onto a strict vegetarian diet, they would suffer and die. The best we can do is make sure the "circle of life" process is as painless as possible.

In our modern world, humans are very much removed from the circle of life. Most of us don't hunt our own meat; therefore, many of us are either too sensitive to the "circle of life" process or completely desensitized because we don't think about where meat, dog food, cat food, snake food (etc.) comes from.

I've seen and felt both extremes. I watched my father, brother and their friends purposely torture animals for amusement. When the animals were dead, they had no further use for them. Once I grew up and decided for myself that this is wrong, I've found myself almost too sensitive. It's up to all of us to find a balance. Deliberately causing suffering is wrong. But so is not realizing that the world is what it is: life feeds on life. The best we can do (as I've said) is to make the process as painless as possible.

Some people are so distressed by the idea of eating meat they become vegetarians. I respect this choice and I've toyed with the idea myself. However, true carnivores can never become vegetarians. Our carnivorous companion animals would sicken and die if not fed a proper diet.

As a highly sensitive person (probably too sensitive), this realization is sometimes very hard for me.

What is this about a CO2 machine for dispatching rodents? I may need one...although I hope not.

Bryce Masuk

08-04-03, 03:56 AM

IMO what you did was One of the stupidest things I have heard A herper do

But I am all calm now that pinkie was raised as food. do you feel sorry for the cow you may have eaten? or even the Corn or rice you have eaten in the past. I wouldnt either way living things DIE to keep us alive if its a corn stock or cow its all the same they all live. feed your snake F/T from now on then again most pet stores dont humanely kill them either. they have whats called "wacking duty" and it is what it sounds.
And I HATE when people use the word "humane" human's rarely are what this word means. we brutally murder each other every ever hour evey day every week since when the first human existed till now. ( keep in mind I have No personal problem with you your actions were stupid IMO) and I formally applogize if I offended you

Ladyhawk

08-04-03, 04:18 AM

If you had bothered to actually read my whole post, you would realize that I know life feeds on life. Your response makes it obvious you did not read the whole thing.

I know everything dies. I know it firsthand. I literally watched the life drain out of my father in his last minutes. I have had to euthanize animals. When I was younger, I hunted with a gun. I don't do the latter anymore because all the hunters I know are poaching morons who enjoy torturing animals.

Perhaps I don't know the right things to do when a snake is stuck and can't swallow a live prey item halfway down its throat. She was going into contortions and thrashing. What would you have done?

Again, I am relatively new at keeping snakes. I don't think it's sincere to insult a person, then apologize in the same sentence. Shame on you! If you know of a better way to handle the situation of a stuck snake, then inform me without insulting me.

Even though everything has to die, and even though all life feeds on life, we have a responsibility to kill food items--I'm going to use the dreaded "h" word--in a HUMANE way. We are thinking beings. Yes, we are are part of the circle of life, but that doesn't mean we have to be sadistic about how we feed our pets. If we can control the level of pain and fear food animals feel, then we should.

And shame on you for drawing conclusions from a post you didn't read in its entirety!

NewLineReptile

08-04-03, 05:12 AM

Ladyhawk....Your snake would of found a way to get it down by taking it out of his mouth was not a good idea now all you have is a pinkie that has probably died and a very stressed snake that wont eat you should try F/T if you dont like to give it live or have someone kill the pinkies for you

as for these "snake steak suasages" is that for real

I also don't like to feed live but some time we have no choice

Brandon

Ladyhawk

08-04-03, 05:36 AM

Probably she would have, but for some reason an image I saw on a documentary was flashing in my mind: a dead snake with a food item halfway down its throat. Most probably this rarely happens.

All I can say is that I was concerned about the snake and concerned about the amount of suffering the mouse was enduring. I wasn't sure what to do. As a newbie, maybe you wouldn't have done the same thing I did, but then again, maybe you would have.

Next time I'll know better.

Regardless, I don't feel that insults are a proper way to instruct someone who has made a mistake, no matter how "stupid" you feel it was.

Bryce Masuk

08-04-03, 06:04 AM

Ok in all honesty I didnt mean to offend you.... I was just stating my opinion
But anyways how big was the prey item? was it thick then the snakes widest point? some times snakes will not try to swollow unless the prey items heart has stopped. unless of course you fed it too big of a prey item that it couldnt kill. What do you mean by "contractions" some snakes will wiggle in order to help the food slide down.

and you right I didnt read it all.... I made a snap judgement And I will applogize for that and what i said

Emily-Fisher

08-04-03, 06:26 AM

I probably would of done the same thing my first time if my Hamlet hadn't been so big but when you took the mouse away so that it wouldn't suffer, you are actually making the snake suffer around 3x more than before. Snakes need TONS of energy to get a bit of a mouse into their mouths but the energy is then created again from the mouse after it's digested. When the snake used all that energy and then couldn't restore it, you wouldn't believe how stressed he is... he's probably suffering as much as the mouse did when he was getting eaten! Your little milk may never eat again since she won't have enough energy to grab the mouse with and might die sometime soon. Although you probably thought that you were helping, you won't but I know that if you knew about this earlier, then you wouldn't of done it. I wish you the best of luck with her and I hope that she eats again.

-Emily-

Pixie

08-04-03, 06:32 AM

Young milksnakes usually have great feeding responses so you should be able to feed f/t food items in the future without problems. Make sure it's nice and warm, jiggle it a little bit a couple of inches from it's head and it should get snapped up quickly.

I too really don't enjoy feeding live prey to my snakes, I've had to do it in the past for problem feeders but thankfully managed to get them all swithched over to p/k or f/t food. The worst one in my collection was one of my first corns who would for the first year of her life only eat live pinkies and fuzzies. It was terrible for me to watch as she wouldn't constrict them before eating, she would just swallow them alive and very often from the backside first. On more than one occasion, the little fuzzy was still squeaking after being completely swallowed! That is pretty sad I can tell you, to see the "bump" still moving and squeaking as it's going down...

In the future, I would let your snake manage with it's food item on it's own. It is extremely rare that your snake could choke on it's meal, it will spit it out if it is too big. It may seem like your snake was having a hard time but I would guess that it was just the usual contorsions of a young snake. I have noticed that very young snakes will go through quite an aerobic exercise when eating their first meals. My theory is that the instinct is telling them what to do but since it's their first times they are clumsy and take longer to do the job. After a few meals, they get much better and faster at "making the kill" and eating. All my hatchlings and very young snakes went through such a period.

Pixie

Ladyhawk

08-04-03, 06:41 AM

The snake is tiny (nine inches) and the prey item was fine for the snake's size (newborn pink). However, she tried to swallow it tail first and couldn't get past the front legs. She was actually flipping over backward and writhing unnaturally...or at least what I interpreted as unnaturally. I watched her for some time before intervening. To me it seemed like an eternity. Instinctively, I know it's not wise to intervene with nature, but I made a judgment call. Maybe the wrong one.

Although I am still what you would call a newbie, I've watched snakes feed often enough to know what a normal feeding looks like. This didn't look normal to me.

Initially, she had tried to constrict the pinkie, but didn't actually kill it. The pinkie was gasping for breath at the same time the snake was flipping backward and writhing strangely. Perhaps I made the wrong decision, but I felt the snake's life might actually be in danger and I felt the pinkie was suffering needlessly.

By the way, Bryce, I like your quotes. I know the second is attributed to Benjamin Franklin. :) And if you're saying what I think you're saying about current events, I agree with you whole-heartedly.

Ladyhawk

08-04-03, 06:57 AM

>I wish you the best of luck with her and I hope that she eats >again.

I was concerned both ways: concerned because she was flipping all over trying to down that mouse and concerned because I knew it would be stressful if I intervened. I really was torn about what to do at the time. Perhaps I panicked. :(

It seems you're all in agreement: don't intervene. In the future I won't. You see, I need to learn. That's why I'm here.

Anyway, the milksnake suffered no lasting effects that I can tell and the tortured pinkie met a quick death in the end. The milksnake is eating fine. She's a trooper, obviously. I'm relieved she survived my mistake.

You're right, Pixie. It isn't fun to watch, but if the snake would starve without live food, that wouldn't be fun to watch, either. It's not exactly like we can make all the world's animals vegetarians. It doesn't work that way.

I have a question: Do you always have to start youngsters with live pinks or do some of them start right away on frozen thawed?

Probably different species have different propensities.

Pixie

08-04-03, 06:59 AM

I understand what you mean by the snake writhin unaturally and flipping backwards. That is what I was referring to about young snakes eating. I've seen my young corns and little pueblan do that when eating for the first times.

You could be right that the snake was having a hard time but I have a feeling it was just young and inexperienced. In my case, I've seen such behavior often.

As for snakes eating their food backwards from the butt end first, that is also quite common. In fact, my colubrids seem to do so regularly about half of the time. They still get their food down fine that way, maybe it'll take a tad longer than head first.

Pixie

Bryce Masuk

08-04-03, 07:02 AM

the first belongs to Harry Truman This ain't the place to discuss politic's though....

In all of the time I have owned herps I have never heard of something like this happening. unless the food item was too big and only with bigger prey items. pinkies are mighty easy to kill. It makes me wonder if it had ever eaten live. but you said they told you to feed live it seems like it all just went wrong try either a pre killed pinkie or a F/t one next time if it doesnt go off quick and smooth something is definately up with the snake

SerpentLust

08-04-03, 07:03 AM

Sheesh Ladyhawke I have no idea why you're getting such negetive remarks from this. I personally see exactly where you're coming from to be honest.

I have different reasoning for not liking live feeding however. People say that it's more natural. But if you think about it, Yes, in the WILD it's natural and the prey has a chance at escape, and the snake has a chance to escape if things get rough. We're keeping snakes in enclosures. There's no chance at escape for either predetor nor prey and therefore it really isn't natural because they're trapped with each other. I find it sadistic.

I know some snakes will only feed live at first, and if I had to, I would feed them live (the ball at the store only eats live)...I'm just stating that I understand where you're coming from. I had one pet rat and four pet mice.

Jenn

Ladyhawk

08-04-03, 07:21 AM

No politics. You're right, this isn't the place.

Anyway, I won't intervene next time...if there is a next time and there probably will be.

SerpentLust: I have fond memories of a pet rat I had as a youngster. It was a rat my wild-caught gopher snake refused to eat. The rat was so tiny, she still needed milk, so I fed her from an eye dropper. She lived the usual three years, but when she died, I cried buckets. I would cry if something happened to one of the snakes in my care, too.

mk-ultra

08-04-03, 07:47 AM

Well you should have left the mice to the snake . It is unexperienced and this kind of thing will happen again . Never forget that you have no right to change natures way the snake has to learn so as lill cheetahs learning to kill a young gazelle playing with it and torturing it to death ( its actually the worst i have seen ) . Let the snake learn thats how it is since the dawn of time .

djc3674

08-04-03, 08:03 AM

IMO I dont not know why people make such a big deal about feeding live. I mean the feeders you buy in a pet store are bred just for that FEEDING. I believe that live prey helps start a feeding response especially with babies. Here is an example:

I recently purchased a baby hog island boa. I waited for over month to get him. The breeder was having trouble getting the babies to eat. Finally I just asked him to ship him anyway, and I would work with the animal. Well I do not know what he was doing, but after having him for 3 days, he ate a small (live) fuzzy mouse. I have had him now since May 26th and he is pounding down fuzzies. When the prey item is small it generally dies quickly and there is minimal suffering. IMO, I would rather have my snakes feeding well and be healthy then worry about the mouse/rat suffering. I can see feeding p/k or f/t when your dealing with large prey items that can really do damage during the attack. But when your feeding pinkies and fuzzies, let the babies do the work, I think its healthier for there well-being and it makes it more natural for them. Its like they get to reap the rewards of their hard work.

I mean give me a friggen break, its a damn rodent for crying outloud. People need to stop being such woosies. If you cant take it, then dont keep carnivores as pets. From what I have learned on this forum, is that the snake gets more protein from eating live, rather than something that has been sitting in a freezer and has been dead for who knows how long. I guess its really up to the keeper to decide how they want to feed their pets. For me, my snakes eat very well and are healthy and that my main concern!!

Stockwell

08-04-03, 09:29 AM

Pyros, can be a pain to get going, just like the Mexicana group(greybands,thayeri greeri)
I would start trying your Pyro on brained pinks, sometimes that is the key. You can use frozen ones if you prefer.
I generally put baby Pyros and Mexicanas on the Pump for several meals to get them going.
You may not realize it but both ticolors you have mentioned are both notorious problem feeders.
Try Lt. annulata, cambelli, or Hondurensis,to end your feeding woes.
Also Pyro knoblochi are the best feeders as the Pyro group goes.

Colonel SB

08-04-03, 10:00 AM

Moral Problem? Whats that? :confused:

marisa

08-04-03, 12:58 PM

I understand why you feel bad for feeding live but it probably was a mistake to take it away at that point and it could have been dangerour for your snake. It would have been upsetting for you had its jaw been injured all because of one pinkie mouse. But I do understand how you feel.

I would say just don't fed live, don't buy snakes that need live a lot and don't interfer with the feeding again.

Good luck in the future. As you keep snakes for longer and longer you WILL be de-sensitzed (sP) and you will know that sometimes its better to leave things alone rather than giving human intervention.

Four or so years ago I had no snakes. I certainly had no clue about the whole "mouse world" out there for rodents. My BF wanted a snake so he got one. Here we are four years later and last night I just cut open a pinky head to get a hatchling snake to eat. Four years ago this would have made me sick, it would have made me feel cruel and really horrible. I didn't even think twice about it last night.

As your interest grows for snakes, your sensitivities for mice will go down. You will see them more and more and more like food each week. Not to say you won't care about suffering but things will get WAY easier for you.

Marisa

Zoe

08-04-03, 01:25 PM

LadyHawk, I probably would have done the same thing as you did. I've never had a snake have a problem like that, and it would have scared the crap out of me.

And yes, I agree with you that feeding live is not cool. Sure, they do it in the wild, but half the reason we keep them in captivity is they don't have the endure the crap they would normally.

Never forget that you have no right to change natures way If you had said that 200 years ago, maybe. But we have changed natures way so much that it isn't nature's way anymore, now is it. Is keeping a snake from another continent in your house, in a cage, on newspaper natures way? That's news to me!

I think its healthier for there well-being and it makes it more natural for them. How so? Snakes don't think the way we do, dj. Do you think a snake says "Oh darn! I really wanted a live one this time so I could be proud of myself to catch it!"? Of course not (at least, probably not!) If the snake believes it is alive, constricts it the same way it normally would, then the outcome is the same.

I mean give me a friggen break, its a damn rodent for crying outloud. People need to stop being such woosies. Well that is an ignorant assement. Ladyhawk was expressing HER discomfort at seeing an animal in pain. Be it a snake, a cat, or a rodent. No one called you a cruel, inhumane monster for allowing rodents to suffer, did they? (its possible - I did skim over some of the fluff :)). I don't want to see an animal in pain either. Which is why I buy my stuff dead or kill it myself. I have fed live only once, and thankfully my snake bit it right in the face and constricter it right away. But still, it took a few seconds to die and I was aghast at seeing the poor thing's tail spinning that way. At least you have the sense to not feed large rodents live, and if you wish to continue feeding young rodents live, of course it is your choice. But for some, rodents do have importance, because they do feel pain and do suffer, and it is not fair you to call them "woosies".

Zoe

Clownfishie

08-04-03, 02:02 PM

I agree completely Zoe -- you took the words right out of my mouth :) I've recently had to feed live to 2 of my problem feeders to get them eating, and I found it to be an awful experience -- I felt absolutely terrible seeing the mice's feet kicking and twitching -- the first time I couldn't even watch.

Siretsap

08-04-03, 02:16 PM

I feed frozen thawed to practically all my snakes except one who will only eat live mice. I tried feeding him a thawed rat but he refused too many times for my patience and I am not the type to starve the animal till he takes the rat. I feed live newborn pinkies to my baby cornsnakes and they make a poor job at constricting (note that I have only seen 2 cornsnakes constrict their prays in my life lolol). The only good thing you could have done, was leave the room and let the snake learn from his mistake. Constricting musn't be any less harmfull than being eaten from the other end... And as for frozen thawed, many are gazed before being frozen, but if you check closely, a lot of them are stabbed with soem sort of needle (especially on linkies).

lordkovacs

08-04-03, 05:05 PM

if anything LadyH. you had a learning experience. Nothing you did was devestating..you learn from your mistakes, as everyone here has. ya know what would be fun? If everyone could swallow their pride and start a thread of the stupidest thing y ou have ever done as a herper. that would be funny!
MIKE

Lisa

08-04-03, 09:13 PM

I don't like feeding live either. Just tears at my heart strings. We breed our own rats so we have to kill them ourselves too and that hurts too, I always cry when I do it. When my dog died I couldn't feed the snakes for 2 weeks (all but 2 eat f/t) and I couldn't kill any rats or mice in that time either. Anyways I understand why you don't like feeding live and hope you can get it over to f/t asap.

djc3674

08-05-03, 06:54 AM

Sure, they do it in the wild, but half the reason we keep them in captivity is they don't have the endure the crap they would normally.

So what your saying Zoe is that its okay for us humans to take animals out of there natural habitat for our own pleasure so they dont have to endure crap??? WTF...are you kidding me?? I think the snake would rather deal w/ the dangers of its NATURAL surroundings that spend its life in a glass enclosure. But for our own enjoyment we keep exotic animals.
Thats what I meant when I said its more natural that it kills its prey itself. It gives the snake a chance to use its senses the way its designed to as it hunts for its food.
I didnt mean that the snake can rationally make a decision weather it wants to eat that dead piece of meat that you shake infront of it or the fresh live prey running around its enclosure. But from what I have learned, live prey often helps strike a feeding response. YOU should know this Zoe, I have read some of your posts and I think often times you have good information. But here I disagree with you. I would think your concern would be with your animals and if that means feeding live so a baby snake doesnt go without food for to long of a time, then so be it.

I almost purchased a boa from a breeder that told me that his snakes dont even constrict anymore cause they are so used to being hand fed. What good is that? Basically he turnes contstrictors into puppy dogs.

I am not a heartless bast***d, I do feel sympathy for them. But I also realize that my snake has to eat and thats more important.

Besides f/t, whats the difference between the snake killing its prey or someone pulling its tail to break its neck or wacking it on a hard surface. I mean basically your killing the thing anyway, it may be a bit faster, but your still killing it by hand. Anyway, I guess this is a topic that can be argued til the end of time. People are set in their ways and there really isnt a point in goin on about it anymore.
But live or dead, she shouldnt of pulled the prey out of its mouth. All she did was stress the thing out. I do realize that she learned from this and hopefully will be able to stomach feeding her pets in the future or else she should give up reptiles and buy a bird.

The_Omen

08-05-03, 07:07 AM

Besides f/t, whats the difference between the snake killing its prey or someone pulling its tail to break its neck or wacking it on a hard surface.

The biggest difference is that dead food doesn't bite back.

djc3674

08-05-03, 07:24 AM

The biggest difference is that dead food doesn't bite back.

Thats obvious Omen duh!. What I was getting at was the fact that they are soooo concerned with the mice suffering, but dont have a problem with killing it by hand. As I said in one of the other replies. I can certainly understand feeding pre-killed when dealing with large prey. Rats are vicious and I wouldnt want my snake getting hurt. I was speaking specifically about feeding live pinkies or fuzzies, even small adult mice, to baby snakes to keep them feeding. Why starve a snake because your so damn set on getting it to eat something already dead. Your messing with the snakes instinct to smell food and hunt it down. Believe me at some point, I will probably try to switch my baby hog over to pre-killed. He has awesome markings and color and I wouldnt want him getting bit up and scarred..let alone injured or killed.
But I certainly wont starve him to do it. If he insists on live prey..well then live prey he will get.
But for now...he loves going after fuzzy mice. After he is done eating he keeps striking at movements. I think the live prey really get a feed response in baby snakes.

lordkovacs

08-05-03, 09:10 AM

djc.....I can understand your point, and it does make sense. in the wild the snake would eat live, so if we are to create the most natural environ. for hte snake, then the food it eats should be alive. However, people have a sensitivity to animals, and particularly to seeing them in pain. If this is the case, then it doesn't matter if it's a rat or a dog or a snake. It's not controllable. Personally as a child, I was never into burning ants with a magnifying glass, or torturing frogs or whatever...I just couldn't do it. So when it came time to feed my snake for the first time, I went f/t. Mistake? perhaps... but isn't it true that in some snakes it's hard to switchover to f/t if you have been feeding it live since it was a baby/neo? Wouldn't that turn out to be more stressful? i mean, you said it yourself that feeding f/t may be better as it grows, well, what's the diff.? If my snakes feed immediately on f/t are they less healthy then yours? I don't think so. I do, however, try to immitate a live prey when I feed, and make sure the prey is warm, etc. It must work cause every time I feed, the snake coils...and when it does, I just offer a little resistance. Just my thoughts,
MIKE

djc3674

08-05-03, 09:39 AM

lord...I can see your point as well. I dont know if yours are less healthy. From what I have read...live prey has more nutritional value then something that has been killed who knows when and frozen for who knows how long. Basically I was trying to say that I would rather have my baby snake eat live then not eat at all. IF you can start a baby out on f/t or p/k and they have no problem with it..then so be it. But, if its refusing to eat p/k or f/t...and the owner is stubborn about feeding live and would rather see the snake go without food until it does it p/k or f/t..then I dont think thats right. I would think that as reptile owners, one understands about the food chain. If you cant take the fact that a living creature is dying for another to live...then you shouldnt own those kinds of pets. Get a dog, cat, bird..etc. I mean we as humans eat meat...and millions of animals are killed each year so we can dine on the best beef...chicken etc. So whats the difference...they are led to slaughter as well. How bout people that fish...I mean they reel a fish in with hook through its lip...stick it in a pale...bring it home...chop its head off..clean it out...and fry it in a pan. But so many people are against dropping a live mouse in a tank for there pet to eat. I dont get it I guess. I'm not saying I dont feel bad for the prey, but it comes with owning reptiles.

lordkovacs

08-05-03, 10:41 AM

oh, i totally agree. if it has trouble feeding on f/t you gotta make sure you find something that it will eat. and you're right, many people are hypocritical, however, it's something learned that's not so easy to "unlearn". we are raised to be sensitive to animals (well, many of us are), so when it comes to a situation like this, some are more sensitive to the prey then others...it's not something you can control. However, the more you do it, the more de-sensitized you become. So, if I was to start feeding live, in a few years it wouldn't effect my psyche as much as it would now. You are right though, that it MUST be whatever is best for the pet...have to put personal feelings aside. I guess I'm just lucky that I have NEVER had a problem feeding f/t. As for f/t loosing their nutritional value... that's true depending on how long it's been frozen for. I personally go to a store that I know breeds the rats and goes through so many that there are none that have been frozen longer then a week. If you go to a low volume store, you may have to pay more attention that sorta thing.
I guess I can sum by saying that everyone has their own style, own way of caring for their herps. Provided the keeper is providing educated care for the reptile, that's the main thing. feeding live has it's advantages, as it has it's disadvantages.
Anyway, good posts!
Cheers all,
MIKE

Zoe

08-05-03, 01:54 PM

live prey has more nutritional value then something that has been killed who knows when and frozen for who knows how long. Well sure, if you buy junk that's been frozen for 6 months. But fresh killed and recently frozen is still fine. Oh, and just btw, my snakes all constrict like psychos when they strike. Maybe its because I yank the tail a few times to put up some sort of resistance for them. But yeah, I do agree, that snakes need to constrict.

WTF...are you kidding me?? I think the snake would rather deal w/ the dangers of its NATURAL surroundings that spend its life in a glass enclosure. But for our own enjoyment we keep exotic animals. Following this logic, you would rather live in trees, killing things with sticks and eating raw meat and bugs, constantly under watch by cougars and whatnot? Oh, and no need to get vulgar :S

Besides f/t, whats the difference between the snake killing its prey or someone pulling its tail to break its neck or wacking it on a hard surface. There are two major differences. The first is the danger to the snake, which is obvious. The second in the rodent itself. Obviously if you don't care if it suffers or not then this difference has no importance to you. But I don't believe they should die in pain, just because you anthropomorphize your snakes.

Get a dog, cat, bird..etc. I mean we as humans eat meat...and millions of animals are killed each year so we can dine on the best beef...chicken etc. So whats the difference... As stated, it happens in the wild that animals kill each other. But in the wild prey also has a chance of getting away. I don't think they have that in captivity, do they? And about slaughter houses... what, you think I want to go there and watch just for fun? Of course not! I am completely against the way they are killed! I do eat meat (not much of it, mind you), and I assure you if I could afford a farm and could breed my own cattle they would die humanely.

Of course the wellfare of my snake comes before that of the rodent. If I cared more about the rodents and owned rats, well that would a little weird :P. But I do care about the rodent as well.

I guess all of this has to do with whether or not you care about the rodents, because you are obviously aware of the dangers of feeding large live rodents (a step in right direction, no?)

Zoe

ReptiZone

08-05-03, 03:28 PM

I did not read any of the reply's caus I am so dame mad at you.

sure it was not tastful to watch if you dont like what you see dont watch it leave the room now this is not the advice I would normaly give but we are talking about a pinky here and then next time try F/T. but now you stresed it out to the max and may never eat a pinky again and now you will be forced to feed it through a pinky press. CONGRATULATIONS and I dont care if I ofend you or not that was just a act of plain stupidaty that is like me puling out the hamburger right from your teeth.and then you flushed it so it would drown like that is a better way to die you made it suffer more buy wasing it and then flushing it. that is like me saving you from a shark then giving you a bath and then holding you under water. or was it just more humane cause YOU dident see it sufer. would it have kiled you to give your snake the extra time to finish the job it started and have the meal.
I am soory but that just discuseted me not only did you kill the pinky but you wasted it every thing I kill get eaten I never wast a thingI havent flushed a rodent in over 2 years.

red bootz

08-05-03, 03:41 PM

Snake owner's complaining about killing something....interesting.

Oliverian

08-05-03, 06:48 PM

.... I really don't think you guys need to get so mad. She already explained that it was a mistake and she'd never do it again, so she learned something. I'm sure we've all made our share of stupid mistakes. And I understand where she's coming from, feeling sorry for the animals. Ladyhawk, you WILL get used to it, but it is hard at first. It was a stupid mistake, but you've learned. That's why we're here. You guys don't need to ream her out, thats the kind of thing that makes some of us not want to come back. She knows that she was wrong in doing that, and knows never to do it again, and thats all there is to it. I really am glad that the snake started eating again. Good luck in the future. ~TR~

mk-ultra

08-05-03, 07:48 PM

WTF...are you kidding me?? I think the snake would rather deal w/ the dangers of its NATURAL surroundings that spend its life in a glass enclosure. But for our own enjoyment we keep exotic animals.

Following this logic, you would rather live in trees, killing things with sticks and eating raw meat and bugs, constantly under watch by cougars and whatnot? Oh, and no need to get vulgar :S

Well I have heard funny stuff but that has to be one of the worst thing I saw here ...

How about we put Zoe in a cage to keep her from the danger of living with other wild human animals ......... think about it ...

Johnny.

Mr.Lizard

08-05-03, 08:05 PM

First off ,Ladyhawk,I sympathize with you...I don't agree,but I sympathize. It was a panicked move and most of us have done something we realized we shouldn't have after our panic subsided. In retrospect I'm sure you agree.
As a kid I always fed live and as a kid and saw nothing wrong with it. In fact it was interesting to watch.
I no longer feed live with the exception of crickets. Not because I believe it is wrong to feed live. I just believe that mercy should be used when dealing with food items that are capable of feeling fear and pain...especially to the degree mammals do.
I once had a horrible experience feeding a large mouse to a tegu who was eating mice that were smaller and easy to dispatch.
The mouse was not subdued and killed immediately as were the smaller mice before him. The tegu just took the mouse's front leg,ate it,and then went back for seconds as the poor creature ran around the cage on three legs screaming.
Belive me,I wanted to rescue that mouse but I realized it was too late and he would have suffered more if I had managed to get him out of the cage rather than leave him to the tegu.
That turned me off on live feedings although it wasn't the last time I fed live. I just took greater care to ensure the prey did not suffer a similar agony as that mouse did.
Someone once said "Maturity is the ability to feel someone Else's suffering". Or something very close to that.
Anyways,what I'm saying is that if you can minimize suffering in any given situation then it is the responsible thing to do so.
A snake or lizard will strike at a stunned rat that is still twitching.
Your herp is relatively safe from being hurt from the prey animal and the prey animal is probably unaware of either pain or fear yet still capable of triggering a feeding response in the snake or lizard.

Zoe

08-05-03, 10:01 PM

So MK, basically you are saying that worst thing you've ever seen, is me saying that saying that a snake would rather live in the wild in all sorts of danger than is safe captivity is comparable to saying that a human would rather live in the jungle in the trees, in similar dangers? You have lived a sheltered life, my friend!

If I was in constant danger of predators and possibly cannibalism, extreme temps, drowning, storms, etc, not sure where my next meal would come from, then I think I would like to stay in a suitable caged environment, all my needs being met? I dunno, maybe I cherish health and safety over freedom (and maybe I'm just lazy!)

and yeah, lay off LadyHawk. Have you never made a stupid mistake chondro? You make 50 of them in every post you write (I'm refering to spelling, not to your knowledge of snakes)! She thought her snake was choking! If you didn't know, and you thought your snake was DYING, would you still have left it? And if you had read everything, you would have seen she did not drown or waste that pinky.

Zoe

lordkovacs

08-05-03, 10:33 PM

chondro, easy there killer. those are some harsh words man. people come on this forum because they want to share their experiences and hopefully learn from them. when you share, you let your guard down. lady. let her guard down, and you stomped on it. this site is for support...not whatever it is you did. as I posted earlier, and I'm sure she'd agree, she made a mistake. nowhere is there anything in any caresheet or book that says anything about not pulling out a mouse by the tail... obviously for someone experienced it's a no brainer, but that's how you learn. I realize you should know about the snake b4 buying it, but not everything can be read from a book. I really don't think this snake is traumatized for life as you make it seem. I remember when I was around 6 I tried to eat some chicken off the grill and burned my hand badly... did I stop eating for the rest of my life? sure, I"m human and can understand more then a snake can...but snakes have instincts... instincts to eat. It will eat again I imagine (unless there really is something that prevented it from eating the first time...) Actually Lady, would you let us know when it eats next? I would be interested in knowing that. Have you not made any mistakes chondro? have you not let your guard down and sought advice from those more experienced? You probably have. And when you did, did you get a lashing ? If so, how did you feel? If you didn't, then I guess you are luckier then Lady was. too bad.
Lady, you learned from your mistake...it's not the worst thing in the world. This snake relies on you, and I'm sure you'll do everything to make it all better. Good luck,
MIKE

Invictus

08-05-03, 10:47 PM

Spoken like a true gentleman, Mike. And I agree... when someone admits to a mistake, we should not be jumping down their throats. We were all newbies at one time, right?

lordkovacs

08-05-03, 10:51 PM

exactly... it's a support community.

LadyHawke

08-05-03, 10:55 PM

just makin sure people realize there are 2 Ladyhawks here....one with an E and one without!!

Andy_G

08-05-03, 11:10 PM

My opinion is that it was not the best thing to do in regards to either the mouse or the snake. Maybe if you need to feed live prey again, leave the room and don't watch it. I don't like to see anything killed or kill anything either but the pinkie will die without milk anyways...

lordkovacs

08-05-03, 11:17 PM

perhaps buying fresh killed would be a happy medium?

Oliverian

08-05-03, 11:20 PM

Anyway, the milksnake suffered no lasting effects that I can tell and the tortured pinkie met a quick death in the end. The milksnake is eating fine. She's a trooper, obviously. I'm relieved she survived my mistake Just letting you guys know that the snake is fine. I noticed many of you missed this the first time around, and I had to go back and check a second time, too. Glad you got it to eat, Ladyhawk. Again, good luck in the future. ~TR~

PoiSoNouS

08-05-03, 11:23 PM

zoe,
I think the point is... snakes that have always been in captivity doesnt know that they are more "secure" in their little cages,
and I do not think they are happy in there, the proof is that they always look to escape...
and im saying "secure" because its not less than a trap... what if a fire starts in your house.. they will die trapped in their "secured" cage... and no way to escape because WE decided to keep them "secure"
Life is a risk, even in our world, we still have predators, but we have put ourself in a cage since we destroyed our environement and built our cities... now the only predators we have is ourselves...
considering what we are doing to ourselves and our planet, YEAH I would rather live in the jungle with wild animals than live with other humans...

even after years of captivity snakes will never loose their instincts... they are built for the kill and will always be.... we cannot get this out of them and people who are keeping them as pet should know it.. and respect them for this... trying to change snake's nature for our own pleasure... is it right ? I dont think so..

I do agree about f/t food is good, to keep your snake out of danger and scars...
But I dont agree about people who is making it bad to give live prey to the snake, knowing that they are built for this... how hard is it, when you give it to them, to see when it is not hungry and take it out ???

Maybe this snake didnt knew how to get it down right, but I do think he could have managed to get it down anyway, even if he had to threw it up and try again..
I had few snakes that caught the pinkies by the side and managed to swallow it in this position to..
go look and see the epicrates forum, I recall clownfishie who gave a huge rat to her boa, and yeah he took it down !!!! never underestimate your snakes,
They will always impress me..

Ladyhawk, I can understand your act, knowing that you are new to snakes we all do mistakes, I just hope next time will be a good one :)

Zoe

08-05-03, 11:38 PM

Yes, I agree. I'm sure a snake would be happier in the wild. But there are things in the wild that put the snake in danger. WHy subject the snake to those dangers in captivity to? I mean, why not just give them all parasites and put hawks and so on inside the cage with them? Obviously no one is going to

considering what we are doing to ourselves and our planet, YEAH I would rather live in the jungle with wild animals than live with other humans... Oh yes, I agree. But I was refering to how we WOULD be living if we were in the wild (prehistorically, of course).

But I dont agree about people who is making it bad to give live prey to the snake, knowing that they are built for this I reiterate: In the wild, the rodent has plenty of chances to escape. In captivity, the only choice a rodent has is to try and fight. That is where the greatest danger lies.

And finally, I dont think that snake was chokin Nor did I, but it would be easy to see how one could that impression if the snake appeared to be stuck on the rat, writhing about and so on.

I think the mistake was pretty obvious, and LadyHawk has even acknowledged it. But it was a mistake, an easy one to make for a newbie, and I DONT think she deserved to be berated for it.

PoiSoNouS

08-05-03, 11:47 PM

Zoe:
In a cage or in the wild, a snake put in front of a rodent have as many chances to get bit than in the wild..
And by this im saying that, once the snake caught it.. the rodent still can have a chance to bit the snake in the cage or out of it..
I have a burmese python that only wanted live food for awhile, even when she caught it.. she got bit.. it would have been the same in the wild. Even if they have great instincts, they still can do mistakes too...

A snake thats doesnt want to eat a live prey given to him wont attack it, and you can see it quicly when they wont, so you do have a chance to get it out of the snake's cage so it wont get attacked by the rodent..
Thats what I meant..

Zoe

08-05-03, 11:52 PM

Of course, but some people will just leave the live rat in there and leave the room. When that happens, and the snake isnt interested, if the rat is hungry or afraid, then the snake is in real danger (i mean, moreso than bites resulting from being constricted).

So why feed live at all? With baby rats/mice, then sure, and the only concern that comes into play is the state of the rodent itself.

Zoe

NewLineReptile

08-06-03, 12:06 AM

This is what Zoe said........

If I was in constant danger of predators and possibly cannibalism, extreme temps, drowning, storms, etc, not sure where my next meal would come from, then I think I would like to stay in a suitable caged environment, all my needs being met? I dunno, maybe I cherish health and safety over freedom (and maybe I'm just lazy!)

You live in "TORONTO" your in danger. So come on up Zoe i will get a cage ready for you.........LOL J/K

Brandon

PoiSoNouS

08-06-03, 12:13 AM

Originally posted by Zoe
[B]Of course, but some people will just leave the live rat in there and leave the room. When that happens, and the snake isnt interested, if the rat is hungry or afraid, then the snake is in real danger (i mean, moreso than bites resulting from being constricted).

Sure that some people are irresponsible enough to let their snake alone with live prey.
it should NEVER happend but yet, some people are doing it and cries because their snake was injured or even worse, died.
And I think those people shouldnt have snakes at all....

So why feed live at all?

Some snakes wont take anything dead, its the owner's responsibility to be there when they are feeding their snakes with live preys... When you have no choice you only need to be responsible enough to supervise the live feeding... that's ALL... its not that complicated... I still dont understand why again many people wont act in consequences...

At some point it this hobby, you have to make a choice, its the rat or the snake, if you are not ready to deal with the ways of nature, then snakes are not meant for you.... Thats what i think about it..

marisa

08-06-03, 12:21 AM

I agree.

I think the bigger problem here is anyone (not just thread starter) really underestimanting food sizes. Lately on forums, this one and others I can't belive how small a prey item is being offered still. I can understand peoples reluctance to feed something a bit bigger, but snakes can eat 1.5 times their widest girth very safely and even more if need be. My new born snakes all took three day old pinkies as a first meal, sure they were large but they got them down and have all digested these "huge" meals. Its amazing what snakes can do.

Marisa

Zoe

08-06-03, 12:41 AM

lol! Yeah, there are lots of dangerous things in Toronto! Smog, racoons, um, pigeons. :D

Hey, I said IF I was in such danger. Doesn't my apt count as a cage? Frankly, I'd rather NOT leave it if possible ;)

Zoe

djc3674

08-06-03, 07:26 AM

sn't my apt count as a cage? Frankly, I'd rather NOT leave it if possible

Zoe..so who lives the "sheltered life"?? :-/

lordkovacs

08-06-03, 10:32 AM

wow, some interesting points. I'm not sure why people keep bringing up the fact that you have to "do what's best for the snake". Obviously, we don't need to keep saying this.

At least the negative posts about ladyhawk's original thread starter has ceased. that's good.

I agree with poisonous when he said the people that leave their snake alone with live prey shouldn't own a snake, barring special circumstances. reason being, both the prey and the predator have nowhere to escape to. it is a set up for disaster. the snake, which we obviously have more affection towards, is put in danger... not wise. I guess some person may argue otherwise, but I just don't buy it personally.

Doug, do you really take that literally, what zoe said about wanting to stay in her apartment? I don't think that was meant to be literal.

Anyway all, good thread. some heated debate, which is always good. so long as we don't let it get to the point where anger overcomes our senses. This is a community of sharing, not insulting. Let's keep it that way.

Cheers all, have a great day.
MIKE