OK let’s have some fun,

[Steeve B]

nt:

[markb]

Hi Steve,
This should be lots of fun!! Thanks for the "Show"....

cheers,
markb

[V.hb]

I'd love to say "Pick me!" however, it would be completely unrealistic for me.. besides' i love my albigs!! Hopefully you can find someone capable of doing this.

[Steeve B]

nt

[chuck911jeep]

Hi Steeve and everyone!
I think i can care for them very carefully. I don't know what they exactly need but with lessons, i will. I want to breed monitor so, people will can get high quality instead of WC. I was planning to keep a water monitor but the only one i can have are WC so, i can have crocs. I repeat, i don't know exactly what they need but i breed kingsnake, i own Suriname boa and Argentine black and white tegu so, with a couple of lessons, they will be in a great home. I live with my girl friend in our home so, they will not moove until.... If i could right you in french, it will be much simple to tell you who i am and my plan for them

[Steeve B]

Excellent that’s a start, 2 others have ask about them via PM but pleas ask on this forum!
As I said this time it’s not my judgement call, and will let the majority ask any question they feel needed to determine if you’re a serious contender or just one more num head that’d going to flash in public with these creatures. Good luck to all of you
Rgds
Ps. I will not respond to PM on this matter

[Steeve B]

It seems by the emails I got that many who’d like to participate, pleas do!
This isn’t some kind of competition it’s just relaxed fun and hopefully will open doors to new ideas? So feel free to ad whatever you think of.
Thanks to all who participate
Rgds

Ps. I Value all replies no exceptions even those from peoples I don’t always agree with, anything that can help herpetoculture is valuable to all of us.

[RaVeNo888o]

i like the idea of making sure a person is able to care for the herp. It would work if you had to go in person to a respected herper and convince him/her that you are capable. the person should not be the one selling them the herp, since they would want to sell it. It should be a neutral person, and they wont just be like 'no you cant have one' cause everyone wants to see more (responsible) herpers out there.

[monitor boy]

well i think i would be able to care for this croc monitors without a doubt, i read up on them quiet often always trying to leanr interesting facts about different kind of monitors. I also have the experience working with big monitors right now i currently on 2 nile monitors and i have 2 3 foot water monitors coming and hopefully another nile. so i have experience with them and feeding cost and housing cost aren't a problem all my monitors have there own 8x4x4 cage right now and hopefully when i have a lot of free tiem on my hand i want to extend some of them to have a 16x4x4 cage they can never have too much space
and i will start the bid off at 200 bucks

[chuck911jeep]

Hi Steeve!
Just tell me the space they need, the kind of substrate to use, the day and the night weather, the day and night humidity level, the best food i can provide them in captivity and i will tell you if i could keep them for as long as they live and keep them healthy. the member of the community can come and visit me home and see my other herp. I don't want to "flash" with those lizard, i just want to give them a good home but i don't want to participate in a challenge. Steeve, when you want to release them?

[Bryce Masuk]

In all reality I dont think this can be done People may speak of taking great care of there animals and such But no one can 100% prove that most actually do you would need to go to there facilitys talk to them face to face for a good period of time with each person before I Myself would be satisfyed.
But if your talking about KNOWING how to do it correctly I think that most do on this however I know a few dont There is alot of solid info out there you can grab off the net however there is a lot of bs too. Bookreading is alot different then Actually doing it correctly though there are many breeders out there with good careheets and will give you the correct care info but they themselves dont follow it.

[chuck911jeep]

I think the go to their facility and talk to them in person is a very good point.

[Steeve B]

nt

[Steeve B]

Last winter I was vandalised by a visitor, 100+ python dead frozen.
So this option is ruled out!
As for conversation, Looks like aim easy to dupe as I was 2 times already
I think this forum can be of help let’s see!!

[V.hb]

this is going to be a disaster..... People claim they have worked with big monitors, big deal! I guarentee you most people who have kept "big niles" dont keep them properly...... dont have proper enclosures... etc etc.. i GUARENTEE IT. Chuck, I dont know you.. so this most definatly isnt directed at yourself. But I feel others here are jumping at a chance to own rare but now cheap varanids.

Let me make an example... I have a 10x6x6 enclosure for my albigs. I keep them properly, BUT have absolutly nowhere near enough knowledge to keep such large varanids like crocs. I think some of you should rethink your quick judgement. Its quick decisions that land alot of reptiles homeless, or dead in later years. I hope all of you use proper judgement, and are responsible with your decisions....

[Bryce Masuk]

steeve I am not sure you understood what I was saying Pm me and we will talk Unless you want it posted here :)

"To any one on this forum that will convince the majority of peoples on this forum that they can care for them properly (long term)"

you said this I basicly got from that that you wanted to know if everybody on here could take on animals like this I myself figured that that if they dont tkae care of there existing animals they wouldnt take care of any new additions thats what i was refering to not you showing them your facilitys You looking at there's thats what I ment not vice versa


Edited to add: Steeve I couldnt take on the pair even if i wanted to Talking to you is more then enough for me knowledge first then material objects my friend

[Tim and Julie B]

Well Steeve they are interesting but I would have to pass. I will be the first one to say that I simply do not want them. Not because I do not think they are interesting but because i do not have the experiance, besides I would rather have peach throats. Call me crazy but you have to go with what you love. Besides I would actually have the room for peachies unlike croc monitors (dwarf or not). I think the person should have to show the cage ahead of time. And to prevent fraud you should have to put a banner on the cage saying "I LOVE SSNAKESS!!!". This is a great idea to see if anyone is truly capable of keeping these beautiful monitors. TB

[Steeve B]

Bryce; got it this time thanks!

Tim; pleas keep up with this thread, I like your Wisdom

[asphyxia]

Steve

IMO. I believe if people wanted Crocs bad enough they would have sourced them out previously to this, and would not just be jumping on this opportunity, although it is very generious offer once again Steve.

Now, if we could only have a challange over some dumerals
I'd be in lol

Take Care

Brian

[V.hb]

my threads seem to go ignored..........it's the extreme truth...... told as it is.......

[Bryce Masuk]

Steeve I would love to chat with you about this I am brycemasuk on yahoo add me please and we can share thoughts :) or go on the ssnakess chat room I want to talk with you

[Steeve B]

Oh no V.hb your not unnoticed in fact I was hoping for your opinions.

Bryce; aim not English therefore aim not good at chatting, they who’d kick me out the chat room pronto! PM me I will give you me email.

I hope you guys realise how this can be a very good thread, as I said this is to have fun and relax

[V.hb]

Steve, its all in fun...I do know the animals welfare will be first when you're involved.. but some of the people responding worry me!! :( good luck with everything

[Scales Zoo]

Steve, as you probably know, crocodile monitors are my holy grail of lizards, or maybe even of all reptiles.

Some day I will keep a pair... but not right now (was what we had decided when we had the chance to buy the male that Penny now has)

But on second thought, if you aren't going to be making any available in the future, I may consider getting some now. I would have liked to be able to wait until I was sure I was ready, but if I am going to be forced to act now... I will.

Actually, we had talked about removing the water monitor from our display, and build other caging. Currently, we have room for a cage that would measure 8 feet high, 14feet long, and 5 feet deep.

Anyways, my point is, I hope you make some available in the future. Sheila and myself have restraint enough to say that this isn't the best time for us to get some, but we sure do want to get some in the future.

If you don't make some available in the future, there will probably be none around for people to see at places like SCALES. I know some of what you think about most zoos, SCALES isn't like most zoos.

Scales stands for Serpent Conservatory and Lizard Emporium.
We are more concerned with showing the public healthy animals, to help teach them about them, conservation, global habitat issues and include some fun facts and museum artifacts just for extras.

So, you ask, what is Ryan's point in all of this, or has he been using the Elmers glue again.

If my chances of acquiring crocodile monitors from you, or someone like you (there isn't anyone else like you that I know of) - are not good for the future, then you are going to force me to enter this contest, and attempt to prove our ability to keep our holy grail of reptiles, a little sooner than we had planned.

The big thing from keeping us from getting them before was a reluctance to remove the water monitor from scales.

I have room at our private collection, to keep the water monitor. I would much rather have a crocodile monitor enclosure in the place we built his. We could build it to open to the outside in the summer.

I promise not to get in their cage to feed them, to put them on a leash and walk them too the park, to let anyone else interact with them physically, and I promise to ask you first when ever I have a question about them.

I would like you to see how we keep our other monitors, and reptiles. I would invite you to come here and help me plan a good enclosure - I could even buy your plane ticket.

I have officially thrown myself into the ring so to speak, I was not originally going to post in this thread, but I do see that it is potentially a very good thread, and gives one something to think about.

Do you have any questions for me?

Ryan

[Steeve B]

nt

[Steeve B]

Scales zoo, this isn’t a contest! It’s an educational thread we all can contribute too or learn from, and I refuse to influence this thread in any direction, basically the forum population will make the decision from question and observations.
I have many things to say already but aim sure others have also, so IL just sit quietly and see where this will bring us.

Many thanks for getting involved it take guts
Regards

[markb]

The perspective owners of this new varaid pair will have to ample room, heat, moisture, substrate, large branches, multiple feeding, basking, and water/bathing spots for these animals. Theywill need to understand this animals role in PNG, so when they interact with this animals they have a basis for understanding what "it does" in New Guinea, and why - so they can learn in time to expect the unexpected when they occur - and ALL Varanid keepers have these moments! - and how to when necessary get them to the vet - for which I suppose you just pick them up, and place them in ______ (what?), a large duffle-bag to go to the vet. Things like this the keeper needs to understand, and then interaction between you and your new animals will be good, better than good I think.

Its amazing you can import an apex predator from New Guinea and watch it do its thing in your home 5000 miles away - amazing and (hopefully) wonderful...check out "Max" posts on Varanus.nl for his "crocky" and see how he gets along with his salvadorii - amazing.

Good luck,
mbayless

[Steeve B]

Mark Bayless according to Hans Georg Horn they are indeed the most fascinating apex predators you can ever dream of working with, and I fully agree.
This is why we must all work on finding ways we can keep the right to own them,
We need to find ways and understandings to have the legitimate right to do so, and this is what this thread is about, peoples here may not know you well,but to me you are a mentor in many ways, and your assistance is most valuable.
Kind Regards

[Bryce Masuk]

Steve many that want the animals are going for them because they can getthem at a cheap price people who are going after them because they are cheap are the MOST likely to act like fools with them.

If you want to give them away like this
this is what I would require
> 1. Croc monitor experiance
> 2. to pass a test that you will write on the monitor care and handling
> 3. a signed agreement that they will not sell or trade them
> 4. pictures of the cage

> As you know Croc monitors Need to be taken seriously so they need serious owners I would talk to the people to on the phone as well
Croc's are the most dangerous when in the wrong hands but in the right hands they are spectacular
> Bryce Masuk

I sent this to steeve Via email he asked me to post it here.
These are not fluffy the bunny the pet. these should be treated like predators that can and WILL KILL You If they get the chance.
These are NOT PET's People looking for free animal's should walk away now. it will cost you thousands of dollars a year to correctly maintain these creatures. I would LOVE to have a pair but I have a long road ahead of me before I am settled down enough to have them. these are a LIFE LONG commitment you are tied to them till they die. they will take a lot of space and time and they will NEVER LOVE YOU

Steeve dont be Discouraged There are people out there who deserve a chance at these and your other breeding projects. dont give up hope

Bryce

[Tim and Julie B]

Steeve do you want comments about perspective owners posted on here or sent to you privately? I am curious about the process you would like to take.
I just wanted to add that I saw a Mark O'Shea program on Croc monitors. He was saying that no one truley knows the size of wild croc monitors because there has never been an extensive study done on them. Mark and Steeve, any comments on this? Steeve what is the largest one you own? What age is it at this size? And how quickly do they grow?
These are definatly questions a respective buyer should know the answers to. As well as feeding. Are you prepared for the cost to feed them? And are you able to provide their nutritional requirments?
Size of the monitor and size of the cage are only part of the ownership. In have talked a show boating "friend" out of getting them once. I am not saying this to get commended for it by any means, just to explain that I have seen first hand how someone can get wrapped up in the "I am cooler then everyone else because I have croc monitors" attitude. Please think it through! TB

[B-Rep]

Steve,

I PM'd you earlier in the week and let you know why I feel I should be chosen above all others...I now hand myself to the mercy of the ssnakess forums experts....

My name is Jonathon Blair. I have been keeping Varanids for some time now. My largest, most dangerous monitor is by far my niloticus...I don't claim to have the utmost experience in Varanids, but I do claim to always be interested in the pursuit of new knowledge. I have been looking for a great pair of crocs for sometime now, and I can' t think of a better person to recieve them from.

Now I wish I could say that I knew a little more about Salvadorii's, but that would be a lie. I find that if you work with monitors long enough, all care for varanids, no matter what species is somewhat similar. I am going to assume that because they hail from the jungles of new guinea, that they're temperatures should be around 85-88 during the day...and drop to around 72-75 at night...humidity around 65%. But if this is wrong, please let me know...I am more than happy to learn as much as I can.

Thank-you all for your time,

JB

[Steeve B]

First let me thank you for this honest post,
your first statment is exactly what a tot when I first wrote the thread, however I decided to do it anyway as I think thers much to leurn from it.
1. Croc monitor experiance
not alot of pepoles have croc experience! therfor we can only ask Varanid experience, or shod we ask large reptiles experience? however I think no experience will ever replace dedication and love, this why I always say get what you love its easy to care for what we love!
2. to pass a test that you will write on the monitor care and handling
this can be don aim sure! but handling of croc is a feeling and judgement combine event, aim very strong but still cant handle a large agresive male alone!
3. a signed agreement that they will not sell or trade them
this whod be fantastic! but also ilegal I think? can such a contract be don, whodnt it be invasive to new owners?
4. pictures of the cage
this is a resonable request, I shoud of ask for this before, now I will.
your ending is thrutfull and apreciated
Rgds

[Steeve B]

Good post, my largest is only 8 feet, but this shod be considered a few months ago a friend of mine trapped a specimen with an 11inches head, to put you in perspective my 8 footer has only a 73/4 inches head, they grow fast one pair was breeding at 11.5 months they hade TL67inches at 4 months. I do not know just how big they will get but under good care they will be on your testimony, think real hard
Rgds
thanks TB

[Tim and Julie B]

Holy crap! 11 inches? Wow that is bigger then the head size on my friends 4 1/2' dwarf crocidle. My word that is a shock. I really have got to see one someday! 67" at 4 months!!! So do you want comments about prespective owners posted or pm'd?

[Steeve B]

I want this here for all to leurn! I know there will be many controvers latter on, lets just keep being gentlemen's about everything and every one!
cheers

[Tim and Julie B]

OK! I have met Ryan and Sheila. Since I am on the west coast they are probably the only people I could comment on. Ryan and Sheila are great people. I have met them a few times and they are genuinely good people that seem to really care for their reptiles. If they say they can care for them, I believe it. Although I must be honest as I have never been to their zoo. But I have only heard good things about it. I ( in my humble opinion) think that you should take them up on their offer and talk to them yourself and see for yourself about the care they can offer. Since you are the one that makes the ultimate decission. Like I said, "Just my humble opinion." But I think they are great candidates. As long as the water monitor still gets some lovin! (jk :D) TB

[Steeve B]

B-rep
Scaled zoo
Chuck911jeep
Monitor boy

These are the peoples interested in keeping a pair of Varanus Salvadorii
Many members will not agree or will not participate from now on! WHY
Simply because judging peoples isn’t fun, it’s very easy to misjudge and then you have to live with your decision, and this friends is exactly why I need your help!
Thru the years I developed decent animal husbandry, however my weakness reside in my interaction with my fellow humans, not only do I misinterpret often but I have proven to be easy prey on many occasion.
What I ask isn’t to hard for most of the members on this forum, you don’t even need experience with monitors to contribute, all you need is to simply give your opinion and ask any question you may think is needed, you may even think its futile but often I may never have tot about it before. Any question or remark can be said in a respectful manner, this community may very well hold the key to resolving many animal related problems, I think its our responsibility as a community to try and improve every aspect of herpetoculture, this was simply thrown on this forum as an experimental, but many times that’s how Ideas go a long way and improvements can be perceived, maybe this can lead to some sort of board of approval forum hosted by respected members from different forums or even by moderators!
It goes without saying that this is not to say you do! You don’t! And it will most likely never be an obligation to future owners to stand before you as pioneers at your mercy, but think how practical it can be when breeders of large reptiles or new owners to be, wish they can make better judgement call before they sell give or buy.

Pleas participate I really don’t know where this will go from here; I just hope it will be useful for a number of peoples wanting the reptiles most likely to cause a threat to this hubby. Many thanks to all participants.
Rgds

Have fun!

[Steeve B]

Bryce, Mark having fun?
am I keeping you up?

[Bryce Masuk]

First let me thank you for this honest post,
your first statment is exactly what a tot when I first wrote the thread, however I decided to do it anyway as I think thers much to leurn from it.
1. Croc monitor experiance
not alot of pepoles have croc experience! therfor we can only ask Varanid experience, or shod we ask large reptiles experience? however I think no experience will ever replace dedication and love, this why I always say get what you love its easy to care for what we love!

True But when your dealing with something as potentially dangerous as a croc monitor more then love is needed for the animal and with no experiance you can quickly change your mind about how you feel about them when a croc takes a huge chomp out of your arm. IMO you Need either to have worked with croc's before or own them Croc's Demand respect And you damn well better know what your doing


2. to pass a test that you will write on the monitor care and handling
this can be don aim sure! but handling of croc is a feeling and judgement combine event, aim very strong but still cant handle a large agresive male alone!

True but I mean they should have the knowledge that they shouldnt try to handle a huge male alone they should understand croc body language as well and know how croc's attack

3. a signed agreement that they will not sell or trade them
this whod be fantastic! but also ilegal I think? can such a contract be don, whodnt it be invasive to new owners?

Steeve its Legal and legally binding if they sign get one written by a lawer and for punishment have a $50 000 fine if they break the contract

4. pictures of the cage
this is a resonable request, I shoud of ask for this before, now I will.
good idea

your ending is thrutfull and apreciated
Rgds


Bryce

[Steeve B]

Bryce just pointed out an important thing about crocs, body language! Let me say its very hard to predict an attack they don’t give sings they just lounge grab and hold ripping with claws until your dead, at least till they realise they won’t kill you this way!

Also what every ones view on a contract and fine? I know Ferrari has such contract prohibiting to sell your car.

Keep it up guys
Rgds

[asphyxia]

Based on past posts, a long ago informaive, correct and helpful personal post to me with respect to my Boa, the post on this thread, there knowledge, of monitors and herps in gereral, and there age, amonge numerious other attributes show me that they are the superior choice to inherit the Crocs.

I believe that Ryan and Shila from Scales Zoo should revieve the Crocs.

Best regards
Brian

[justinO]

I have a quick question here. Breeding the crocs down the road. Would the "winner"(for lack of a better term) be obligated or willing to try to screen out prospective buyers of the offspring? This I guess would be a personal decision of course, and can only be honestly answered by the "winner". They would have the same responsibility as Steeve has at this moment.

my $0.02 thought.

[Steeve B]

This was my first concern when *Chuck911jeep* said he wants to breed varanids to supply CB animals, don’t get me wrong its very noble to breed crocs, and I do want others to work with crocs, but as this and other thread demonstrate, its also one of the biggest responsibility, peoples will eventually breed them how will they sift out new owners?
The worst thing that can happen to this hubby is to sell them as cute little critters that can become pets. I assure you most will not ever become tractable.
Rgds

[Steeve B]

Monitor Boy, I guess by now you must have realised this thread is about responsibilities VS other herpetoculturist and the general public. Aim sure your well intended and you may very well have what it takes to work with them, but you tell me, how responsible it who’d be to sell an adult pair of croc to a minor?
I have no discriminations against age or gender, I know a few young guy that show more knowledge then many adult, but pleas understand the responsibilities involved in this case.
Kind regards

[Steeve B]

B-Rep
Perhaps you represent exactly what I wanted to show this forum, a young man very interested in a particular specie, and most likely willing to learn, you admit to having little experience, nevertheless you feel this shouldn’t stop you from working with them, this is your first post on this site, and most peoples here will see this as a problem, but in reality this is the kind of problem aim facing when new Varanophils ask me for crocs, its not easy to make a deal with someone totally unknown to us.
Good luck thanks for participating
Rgds

[monitor boy]

no sorry about the delay but i have been either working at my jobs or making sure that all my animals are doing well and trying to build new cages for new animals coming. so have just had the time to get on and read the thread. and i still think i have the responsability to take care of them and i agree with many things ppl have said but for the fact that ppl should have experience with croc monitors now i must say and big monitor is pretty good experience not the best but for sure a good start. now i have to say that i have worked with other niles before and i have worked with one that is about 6.5 feet and the nastiest thing ever seen. and looking for sign of an attack is always important i am always very observatice of my monitors to make sure that i will not be attacked cuz they have mixed attitudes and can do stuff out of no where so i am always careful. i am not too sure who wrote that ppl would change there mind when they get a big chomp out of there arm, but in my case ever since i have seen steeves gloves, well actually arm piece i went out and made one as similiar to that is possible so i am always thinking safety. now for asking for a picture of the cage i am not going to go build the cage until i know i will be getting them so it would be hard to do that in my case but i can always send pics of my other animals in there cage so you can tell that i keep my animals in proper caging.

and once again sorry for the delay and also thanks for giving many people the opportunity 2 own some crocs especially whn i know i can go out and spend 3000 grand on a pair of them but money food is not a challenge for me just so it doesn't sound like i don't have enough money to feed them or house them but i can do that just not purchase them

[NewLineReptile]

Steeve B.......What you are doing is a real good idea.And ihad my share of large monitors in the past as for a good person for this idea i know Monitor boy i have delt with him in the past and he has a few of my monitors now includeing my 5.5' Nile and he takes good care of her all his animals come first that i have seen and i think he would be a good person for this

Good luck Steeve B...with this idea

Brandon

[Steeve B]

*I promise not to get in their cage to feed them,*
This is one of my favourite time with them, having the chance to enter there domain is awesome!
*to put them on a leash and walk them too the park,*
I have a big male I often take for a swim in a nearby lake *UNRESTRANED* we spend hours catching frogs together, believe it or not aim better catcher then him.
This is the kind of info I almost never share, because it give peoples the impression they will do the same, not so this animal aim talking about is one in many and not common.
*to let anyone else interact with them physically,*
Honolulu Zoo did this with spectators; you shod email them about this!

*and I promise to ask you first when ever I have a question about them.*
This I never ask to anyone, I don’t feel owners of my babies O me any kind of bond, peoples are free to do what ever they want, as long as it respect others rights.


*Do you have any questions for me?*
Yes I have a few if you don’t mind,
You seem to have both the maturity and facility to keep them! But you also seem to have the ability to communicate your experience to others.
Can you share with us how you will deal with this situation when you have babies of your own?
How will you judge if the person you’re selling or donating your crocs will act responsibly?
Meeting isn’t always possible as these animals are exported most of the time.
Also how who’d you deal with demands like the others on this thread?

Thanks
Rgds

[Scales Zoo]

Steve Says
You seem to have both the maturity and facility to keep them! But you also seem to have the ability to communicate your xperience to others.
Can you share with us how you will deal with this situation when you have babies of your own?
*****************************

Well, good question. We have not bred any of our large pythons because we know there aren't enough good homes for babies.

There are a lot less crocodile monitors available, than there are large pythons. Before I attempted breeding (If I attempt breeding) I would collect a list of people that wanted them.

Same as Great Danes. One should wait until they have a list of ready and approved buyers, before breeding the dogs.

I currently know of 2 places that would be potentially good homes for croc monitors. Both of these are open to the public, educational, and have someone that would care about these animals, and strive to look after them properly.

If we decided to breed, we may only incubate a certain number of eggs. If we had extra babies - we would keep them, and grow them up. If, along the way, we found another place or 2 that should have crocodile monitors - we may have some well established ones to place, and not have to breed them again.

They may be listed as CITES appendix 1 in the future. I would love to keep the possibility of future C.B. specimins e in Canada.
*********************

Steve says

How will you judge if the person you’re selling or donating your crocs will act responsibly?
********************

I will have had the chance to judge them before any babies are born. If I see an appropriate place for a crocodile monitor, I will try to provide them with a healthy juvenile.

As I said, we have chosen not to breed burms, retics or african rocks. It is not like a zoo could not get one of these if they wanted to, they are common.

If there were other crocodile monitors available in Canada, the chances are good that I would not breed. I may breed, just to keep the babies - and to learn from what I record during the breeding and egg laying cycle.

I have trouble with people freezing eggs of rare animals, but when one thinks about it, it often may be the better choice than to send the babies to homes.

Maybe the home is good, but what if they decide to sell it (as is what happened recently)? I would always buy back any babies that were no longer wanted, than to let them go to homes that may not be good.
******************

steve says
Meeting isn’t always possible as these animals are exported most of the time.
*************

I said I'd buy you a plane ticket out here, pick a date.
************************

Steve says
Also how who’d you deal with demands like the others on this thread?
***************

I'm not fully sure what you mean by the demands of others on this thread.

I know that I was a good snake keeper at the age of 12.

I don't like age discrimination, but with potentially dangerous animals - I think the seller should be able to discriminate against anything, age, attitude, living accomodations, income.... etc.

It is up to you, where your animals go.

Ryan

[Steeve B]

Scales Zoo most peoples don’t know this, but preventing varanids to breed may have consequences, this is what happens to a female after multiple reabsorbtion, therefore proper nesting and cycling is mandatory for long term health, I fully agree and understand the need to destroy eggs or hatchlings if needed.
Sorry guys for this disgusting photo, but this and a multitude of things can happen if these animals aren’t well taken cared of.

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/502/959croc_bite_365-med.jpg

[markb]

What I wrote in Reptiles magazine pretty much summed up what we know and don't know "THEN" - since then, they have been bred in captivity 4-5 times (published) and other private breeders have sent me notes on their breeding success and failures which are equally important.

I have new locality data from Steve B., new photos of them in the wild basking in open grass like a komodos do in Komodo/Flores, in groups!!

There is NO data of their natural diet, but examining a large 9 inch skull, 3/4 inch teeth, they eat BIG stuff, and puncture it to death - like the PNG call them, Dragon of the Trees is no lie.

There is no data on population density, except for photos I describe above which can tell alot, and I believe these animals to quite social, more so than suspected - but maybe not as much as V. jobiensis. They roost arboreal at night, probably hunting at night as well, have territorial behaviors.

How big do they get? Nobody knows for sure. The largest captive one is at Brownsville Zoo, TX and is 10 feet. Col. John Balshford-snell described them as 13 feet in his explorations of them; others say more, like 17 feet - who knows? I don't.

So what else do we know? I have to go ask a few Papuans now and see what they say....

cheers for now,
markb

[chuck911jeep]

ok,after thinking about that, it's not a good idea for me get those Salvadorii. What i really want is a "tame dog pet" monitor.I could provide a good home but what makes me really happy is to see a big lizard play with my dog and eat in the same bowl like my Arbentina tégu do. So, i will retire myself of the "contest" and wait for the occasion to get the big good tame boy.

[Steeve B]

That is a very wise decision!
I have other varanids that will fit your needs you can breed and enjoy even more!
And you don’t have to worry about the outcome of any transaction with them.
I will let you know when available
Cheers and thank for your participation
Rgds

[V.hb]

a light has shined on this thread! i hope others follow in chucks footsteps.. good for you man

[monitor boy]

i would liek to thank brandon for this nice comment

and for breeding them i wouldn't even bother wasting my time with that monitors of that size aren't good for pets. thats the reason i keep monitors i get the big ones to try to get one more out of the hands of ppl who shouldn't keep them. not you though brandon u did amazing job on the nile. i have tried to rescue some monitors but only when the space is available and that is the exact reaosn i keep all my monitors seperate. i have pairs of the niles and water but always seperated no need for ppl to get into these as pets i am only going to try to breed my nile next year so i can get the eggs to see if the other monitors will eat for food nothing better then a little bit of variety and its not like its hard to fatten up a monitor i will probably do this with every monitor i have not every year though like switch the years so the first year niles, then waters the next year, the croc monitors so they don't get stressed out

i might keep one egg from the croc clutch just cuz the pet store i work we keep alot of big desplay animals that we don't sell and that would be a perfect specimen.
and steeve i would appreciate if you could send me some more details of them or email or pm like there exact size now and even pics of them is always nice to see just to get my hopes up of course

[V.hb]

you're gonna go through all the hard work of breeding niles to feed off their eggs? thats a bit odd dont you think? Theres alot of money involved in successfully breeding varanids No i dont mean in selling them, i mean in setting them up to successfully do it!.. The food bill alone for the collection you have must be high if you're trying to cycle the female... for eggs.... Crocs eat about 5 times that.

[monitor boy]

i know all that i breed my own supply of rats and mice for food and i get discoutns at the nearest grocery store so that helps alot thats is why food isn't really an issue so i still feed them some chicks every so often so thats all i basically buy

[Siretsap]

Hummm, was eating a bag of mixed nuts when I saw the pic, only saw your warning message after a while it's soo small compared to the pic. lolol I don't mind, ain't grossed out.

I would love to have the crocs, but I got to refuse because I know what they get to be and I wouln't have the space to care for such a great reptile nor does the weather in quebec (montreal) permit me to keep them. I wouln't want them to spend their lives in a cage with only a month and a half per year to be outside. I don't think anyone who can't have them outside all year long, or almost should want to keep them.

[Steeve B]

OK NOW its time for me to be judged and pleas don’t spare me! As you won’t do me any favour if you did.

My first choice is Scales Zoo because;
No1, Salvadorii are his favourite monitors (you just can’t beat passion)
No2, he has a better general understanding of animal needs (more experience)
No3, he also has the space they need
No4, he understands sometime it’s necessary to sacrifice animals you love to protect them and peoples around them (this is something I deal with more then anyone on this site, trust me you never get use to it)
No5, I know he will care for them long term and probably always try to improve there husbandry.

My comment to Chuck for retracting;
I particularly appreciate you for being honest and having the maturity to realise and admit your so obvious mistake! For this I really think you’re not this far off from being a competent croc keeper.

Too Monitor Boy;
You will most likely become a Varanids authority some day, you sure seem to have the passion, and I can see myself in you when I was your age!
But you having a pair of crocs with the collection you already have, seem a little too much, I cant help but wonder what will happen to them a few years down the road, when you leave the family nest, many things change at this time in life, nevertheless be assured I have no dough you can care for them, and wont hesitate to supply you in a few years.


B-rep;
You didn’t give me much to work with, but from your post you seem honest and devoted, you also have the best tool to breeding success, the inherit will to learn and improve!
Also you know the specie and want to work with it, I hope you will.

In general its not easy to find a keeper for these animals, however many wants to keep them, I know from experience a lot of croc keepers will change there minds soon after realising they don’t make good pets, but they make excellent display and fascinating study subjects. To keep crocs you need to accept that you may never be able to interact physically with most of them (there’s always exceptions) also you need to be prepared for emergencies handling, this can happen for many reason, peoples working with dangerous animals always have bags and boxes thongs hooks gloves and other tools at hand including a back up person in case of emergencies, if they don’t they are not qualified to keep these animals, plain and simple.

I want to thank every one who participated in this great thread, hopefully this will lead the ways for better managing situation like these. You all have my gratitude and appreciation.

Now tell me who gets the monitors?

[Siretsap]

I would say Scales Zoo 100%
They are experienced in herps. They grew up with reptiles. I never met them in person but I trust them with the crocs. I am sure they will take care of them just like the rest of their reptiles.

And I promise this, even if they do not get the crocs, I will go take a look at their zoo. I will plan a trip from Montreal to their destination either this summer or next. Anyone coming along?

Michael

[justinO]

Steeve, Your judgement is sound and wise.

Out of the few interested parties, I would go with ScalesZoo. They seem to have the most room, experience, desire, and everything else that is required to house these creatures and to have them thrive.

As you mentioned Steeve, almost everone would love to have some, but as it shows here, very very few are able to proove they can take care of them.

This was a great thread, and a pleasure to read.

[Bryce Masuk]

Out of them that applyed I would say scales zoo but that's judging a book by its cover. In all reality I dont know them we have chatted and on the chat night I won a hook from them (they seem like great people) but I myself Couldnt prove they are indeed the best people to have these monitors

IMO monitor boy and B-rep are out If your a minor such as myself. You have alot of unknowns coming up in life these monitors will tie you down from long trips and such. People that own a house are basicly stable now they have a place for the monitors and themselves. If your moving into a apartment these guys will take up half of it seriously. you wont have any room and thats if your lucky enough to be allowed into the apartment building with them. That's why I myself KNEW I couldnt own them not for a lack of ambition and love for the species like you both have. there are just too many unknowns on the road ahead

Steeve good luck
Keep C.b. Croc's around as people have proven SOME deserve a shot while many others dont know what there getting into

[Steeve B]

Again Bryce pointed out an important issue! Eviction is a possibility when keeping large monitors, also just for the records my croc extension 20-20feet cost me 3400$ in hydro last winter something to consider!
Rgds

[ectotherm]

Hey Steve, very interesting thread. Aside from the pair of salvadorii themselves, it addresses some much larger, and easily ignored issues.

My opinion is, that in spite of the best of intentions, ownership is essentially a blind item. Time is the only thing that will bear out whether the owner and the animal(s) are a good match. Obviously, knowing that a potential owner has some fundamental husbandry skills with large reptiles - ideally varanids, makes things a bit easier for all. The animals included.

I also believe that this thread is a great demonstration of how these forums can be an asset to the overall herp community. Some see it as contest, others see it as something more substantial than the actual offer of the animals. It is a discussion about capability, knowledge, awareness and an exchange of information. That one is the clincher for me.

For my part, the decision is easy. Despite my interest in maintaining and observing such stunning animals, I would be remiss to throw my hat in the ring. I simply do not have the capacity or facilities to provide for this species long term needs. In addition, I don't have the permits my state requires ;) o>. I find it almost refreshing that many of the responses you have gotten are folks declining, and offering their reasons why. That in itself demonstrates some degree of responsibility and accountability.

Thumbs up for Scales Zoo
Absolutely no disrespect to the other keepers that put themselves out there. I just have the feeling that 5 to 10 years from now, Scales Zoo will still be able to tell us, or the people visiting their facility, about the things they have learned and observed, and are still learning and observing from their pair of V.salvadorii.

Hopefully, the public will not be introduced to Scales Zoo's croc monitors as a result of seeing them driving around town. *snicker*

[Steeve B]

This thread was not about offering crocs as it may seem!
In this thread I wanted peoples to realise how this situation can affect all of us, I was also hopping we can find ways to deal with such a situation, at worst this thread was going to be a guide to help others in future transactions.
We may not know where it will go from here, but we do know it’s by talking together that solutions will come; I too believe we can make a change for the better.
So who ever offers crocs the very least you can do is read and have the new owner read this thread, if this doesn’t help nothing will, and we will be left to pay the bill.
Rgds
Ps. good post ectotherm

[Steeve B]

Scales zoo I guess you get the crocs!
Let me give you a briefing, to my knowledge they are the only salawetii pair that I know of, I dough we will see them again anytime soon, aim glade you get them , as promised I will ship them when your ready.
But first as I said its up to this forum to set the pricing, I only set the 200$ Barr, to be honest I think a small donation to this site who’d only be fair, considering your easy win!

I think you will be satisfied, and hope we can stay in contact and help each other out a little. Kind regards

[beccari]

Given the situation and the responses I've seen from everyone I honestly don't know if I would consider many of those applying as good candidates for such an animal. I do not see enough passion in anyone "applying" to this contest to actually give me a direct reason to chose anyone. Passion is the only reason why you would take on such a task. Steve's passion for monitors is seen by the collection he cares for. My collection, its small, I work with 1.1 V. beccari, 1.1 Chondros and 1.1 cone head lizards but its what I manage because my passion is deeply implanted in my soul. I don't go around and parade myself as a reptile god because I'm still a beginner regardless of my experience and years of experience, I am always learning more no matter what species it is. I've even learned from the my 6 year old neighbor who I let spray my cages while I was away on a trip (his father helped out).


How many of you have actually worked with croc's for extended periods of time or handled them? Its not an easy task. They are not animals that give you warning signs. Its not like a nile or a water monitor. In my experience having kept three croc's at a store I worked at for two years, they are not trustworthy (name not mentioned because of personal fears of my old employer being harrassed by my statements). I've taken my bites from other monitors (niles and albigs in the mix) and had my hands stitched back together because I made mistakes. I've lost feeling in one finger because the bite severed a nerve and damaged the joint, lovely how adult male iguanas can kiss you so nicely. But still I kept dealing with them on a daily basis.

I've been keeping reptiles for 16 years and in that time I've seen people come and go. I know people talk big and try to prove themselves to be better than everyone else or more experienced than others but does not show anything. I've been guilty of the above statement when I was younger and learned from my mistakes at the cost of the animal's life because of my foolishness. Look at some of the big names in the industry, one in particular stands out for being guilty of this. He's written a number of arctiles and a few books on monitors but doesn't even keep them in his own home and has only been bitten once by a monitor in MarkB's pressence. To me, this makes him more of a novice than any of us regardless of his phd or the number of articles he's written because of his in experience in keeping them. I just don't see the fervor this animals demand in any of the candidates.

Without passion what can you do for these animals? Nothing but injustice.

It took me seven years to get my pair of black tree monitors for that reason alone I wouldn't have been capable of caring for them because my life wasn't forgiving enough to handle that responsibility. To this day they have been the hardest species I've kept in my private collection because of the demands they require. In my business life, my previous job allowed me the space and time to manage several species of rare snakes (pythons and colubrids) as well as a few species of monitors (tritris tritris, bengals, green trees and croc's) and can openly say one mistake can put lead you to a hospital. MarkB can attest to my experience with these aforementioned species and has seen my skill at handling croc's and even seen me be charged and severely bruised on my chest and stomach by an 8 foot male because I left a small area open of opportunity for it take advantage of. And I got off lucky on that incident, it could've been much worse. I have the space and the knowledge to handle such an intense reptile.

I see people jump onto this "contest" because of price. The truely experienced and passionate, in my opinion, are showing themselves by declining for lack of space, time and experience with these animals. While the rest of us jump onto it based on the deal of a lifetime. Price has not mattered to me when buying reptiles (I've spent thousands on individual animals, my chondros are an example). The reason I'm interested in this is because I believe Steve doesn't want to see who's capable of keeping them (although it plays a part), its a matter of who has the passion to step up to the plate.

That said, I'm at the mercy of the forum.

[Steeve B]

Somehow I knew you where good news when I first saw your subscription earlier today, excellent post thanks hope you’ll book mark this site and come play sometimes?
Regards

[monitor boy]

i would just like to add that i already live on my own and i own 2 cars already. so i wouldn't have to worry about moving out of the nest. and as u made you decision would you please get back to me about what monitors you have available so i can purchase something else from you cuz i really want to add some more monitors to the collection but thanx for even considering me in this opportunity it shows how nice some people are on this site

so please get back to me asap on some available monitors

ryan

[B-Rep]

Steeve;

I completely understand and respect your decision...With what little information I could give you, and the fact that no-one here can be sure of me, I am going to go ahead and say you made the right decision.

Although this is heart breaking to me, my never ending pursuit for knowledge and understanding varanids is no-where near complete. I feel for one to completely understand these incredible creatures, you need to work with some of the most intelligent and dangerous.

One day I will get my pair of Salvadorii, I guess it just won't be today.

Thanks for everything,

JB

P.S. Scales Zoo;

Congrats on your new additions, please post pictures as soon as you get them! Good luck!

[beccari]

Steve,

Please let me know when you have other monitors available, you know my tastes in monitors (the screen name says it all). I hope your "chosen" one is capable in more ways than one to handle yours generous gifts.

beccari

[markb]

HI Steve,
I know beccari pretty darn well, and he has my vote - I am confident his ability to work with, and perhaps breed them is high, and endorse him whole-heartedly in this drama...the others I do not know, but I have not seen "passion" which I believe is crucial in any keeper who works with varanids, not merely a passion today for varanids, passion tomorrow for cars mentality...

thanks Steve,
markb

[Cas]

First off, I know very little about monitors, and even less about croc monitors (besides that they're big, dangerous, and not for me). However, I met Ryan and Shelia (ScalesZoo) at their zoo last year, and I was very impressed with their collection and how well it was set up. I believe that they would be a good choice, as I have no doubt that they would be responsible with these animals, as well as doing everything possible to give them the correct care. And, honestly, I can't help but think it would be a very good thing to have this pair in a publicly accessible zoo setting - a) so that people who would never otherwise see these animals could see them, learn about them, and appreciate them; and b) when people can actually <i>see</i> how big something gets, they are more likely to realize "Hey, that really isn't for me".

Just my 2 cents
Dawn

[lordkovacs]

before reading the scales zoo post, I had thought why not sell them to a reptile zoo that is dedicated to educating the mostly ignorant public (by ignorant I just mean those that have no reptile knowledge). I think they could provide much space and time. the fact that they have been in business a while now and have received nothing but kind words about their operation from people that are knowledgeable when it comes to herping, proves their value in the reptile community. Just MHO. cheers, and goodluck steeve.
MIKE

[Steeve B]

Ok just to make it clear! First I don’t need nor do I want to sell give or trade these crocs!
This exercise it for all to see the problems associated with any transaction regarding these animals, if scales zoo accept to take them, they also accept to share all experience with them good or bad! Aim glad they are the one to get them as they are part of this forum and members will see them regularly, and also we can ask them how they are doing once in a while.

Next to me it doesn’t mean a thing that a zoo gets them or not, I don’t say this to be mean in anyway to scales zoo, in fact I like them, but my experience with a few reptiles’ zoos in Quebec has been a real crap! They don’t deserve any respect from me for there poor husbandry, animal understanding, and bad policies, and trust me aim not talking over my head, I gave 50.000 worth before I realised they don’t deserve anything from me.

But loosing a little is not a reason to stop trusting, like it was said on this thread, some peoples do it out of passion, and are dedicated.
Rgds

[Tim and Julie B]

Don't worry Steeve this is one of those times were it will work out well. Rest easy on this decision my friend. It will NOT come back to haunt you. It is a good decision and I am sure you will be happy to have Ryan and Sheila as the new owners. This was a greatb idea and really got everyone thinking about ethics in the reptile trade. Good job! TB

[Scales Zoo]

O.k

I had decided not to post to this thread since my original post, until I had a chance to get in.

First off, I'd like to thank everyone who said they thought we should get them. I happen to agree - but seeing all of those posts really made me step back and think.

Sheila and I have had time to talk about it.

We are fully prepared to take these monitors, give a $250 donation to ssnakess, and give a donation to Steve.

I realize that Steve probably didn't think these monitors would find another home.

As far as passion goes, you may ask Sheila about my passion to keep crocodile monitors. I truely love all of our monitors, She tells people that "I (Sheila) like the big pythons, Ryan really loves the big monitors and the turtles and tortoises."

She is right. I used to love snakes more than anything. I still really like snakes, but I do like the monitors more, like to give them big cages, and peak and observe them eating, drinking, walking around, basking, hiding......"

I really know that I will make Steve happy with these monitors. I will buy him a plane ticket any time he wants, to see the life of luxury that these monitors have.

Truth be told, we get very few people per month to the zoo. It is the house we bought for our big reptiles, and we are only open by appointment. The animals at the zoo get more privacy than the animals that live here with us.

We do travelling displays to help pay for food for all of our reptiles (and I also hold a good paying job, which got us started with this, and helps maintain our reptiles)

I would never take the crocs on the road - we have enough animals that are good to go on the road for the education and conservation displays, that we can alternate animals as to never over stress any animal.

The crocs would never leave Scales Zoo. We have large plans for their indoor cages, which between May and October, can be openly attatched to their very large out door summer jungle.

As said, I've got a LxWxH 14'' x 6' x 8' space for caging. In the summer months, they can have access to a a LxWxH of 20' x 10' x 10' of additional space (outdoor space)., still attatched to their indoor space incase of inclement weather.

Leader is the sunniest place in Canada. They are going to love the sun, natural air, and all of the living plants and trees available in their summer outdoor enclosure. In the winter, they will have significant area in a well heated and humid python and boa zoo.

I am going to stive to breed this pair, if for nothing else, for information and learning, regarding the failures and successes.

If I ever attain viable offsrping, it will go to other good facilities that I know of, or kept and grown here if there are no good homes.

I have heard that the Herp Symposium this fall at Reptile World in Drumheller is cancled.

Maybe we could put together a Canadian symposium here, at leader.

We have access to a large hall 60 feet from our property line. We could co-ordinate the symposium with our additon of crocodile monitors (and a dwarf crocodile, and american alligators).

So, in closing, Thank you Steve for taking another chance in the parting with animals like these. I won't dissapoint you, our zoo is not like othe zoos, and we are not like other people.

You will get to see all of our posts about these guys, as will all of the ssnakess comunity.

Maybe I will even be able to learn and share a thing or two about this species.

Again, thanks for giving us a chance Steve.
Ryan and Sheila

[V.hb]

Wow, thats one hell of a setup.. all the best to you and those crocs! At the beginning of this thread i felt kind of wary about seeing crocs go to other members, then seeing you guys inquiring made it alot easier to read.. your knowledge is obvious by reading your posts... Enjoy your new additions you deserve them!

[Steeve B]

I realize that Steve probably didn't think these monitors would find another home.


Actually this is what I was hopping for, I who’d not have given them to anyone I tot wasn’t prepared to keep them, from this thread its easy to see just how many peoples who’d love to keep these, and out of them only very few will keep them long term, most will soon realise they cant care for them properly, monitor keepers know how often they must handle there animals, be it to separate or clean a wound or to do a mouth check up! Its simply not possible for every one to do this, you need much experience to work with them safely, any Joe can claim they have a special bond with animals, then reality strikes sometimes painfully, trust me its much harder to care for them in a safe and responsible manner.

I said it take guts to enter this contest, because it puts you in a position even I who’d not be comfortable with, aim sure you know many keepers and zoos failed and lost many Komodo and Salvadorii before they succeeded, but they didn’t have A forum commune to judge them like (Damocles sword) hanging over them, however you can cont on my entire support and collaboration.

I guess all we need to discuss now is shipping?


As for a symposium, I don’t know exactly what’s on your mind, but I honestly think from what iv witnessed, the Canadian herp community is more then ready to show leadership in herpetoculture, and Varanophils have shown devotion and understanding of these creatures, aim sure many who’d have the motivation to participate in such an event, I know I who’d if peoples just drops the barricades and come together, aim sure we have nothing to envy from Wolfgang and Horn’s (Mertensiela advance in monitor research)

Thanks to all
Rgds

[Steeve B]

To scales zoo

As you know the original females died when trying to ship, iv sins offered you my only pair of Jayapura croc,s at $1000ea witch you have refused and I understand, however I don’t understand why your refusing to send me $200ea for a nice a pair of Merauke, on the pretext that you don’t know me? this is your business.
However sins this started on the forum, I will end it right here and now.
Theirs no more deal
Happy Holidays

[Scales Zoo]

To Steve

Nice to get to know you.

Happy Holidays

[Steeve B]

how cheep can you get? 400pr is to much to ask for all the trouble I whent thru, 2 trips to the air port lost a female in the process, tryed all I can to find an alternative we both whod be happy with, aim even ofering you my favorit pair of crocs so your happy befor the holly days.
read this thread, here you seemed like crocs was your holly grail of monitors. now you calling me a fake
sorry but iv bended in all directions for you, I int bending no more!

I will email the entier exchange we had to who ever whants to judge, and shod they say aim wrong I will sumit
now tell me is this being a fake to you?

[Steeve B]

pleas guys understand this was a public deal, and has nothing to do with any other deals involving me or scale zoo.
I think I was honnest with him, and he thinks I wasent!
how can this be sorted out?

[Scales Zoo]

Steve

You are very instigative. I can't beleive you would provoke me in a public forum. If I weren't needed to be so politically correct - I would probably really go off the handle right now and bring up many many things.

I'm used to patrolling threads like this to make sure they don't get out of hand, so I am not going to cause the nonesense.

But I do have a few things to say.

I've got every single email we shared - I'm kind of weird that way, I save everything. You, on the other hand - claimed to have a computer problem which wiped out all emails between you and I - remember that Steve?

If you would like copies of the emails, I will gladly send them to you if you feel like forwarding them. I have absolutely nothing to hide, but I'd love for you to share the emails with people and let them judge. Maybe you should read through them again yourself, and re-familiarize yourself with the situation.

I really have no need or want for any more communication from you - and as much as it will bother me, I will refuse to reply to any post from you - or "straighten out" things you say.

I'm sorry to have typed this reply already, It will probably cause problems, but I could not let my character be attacked with out replying just this once.

As I've said before
Goodbye

Ryan

[Retic chic]

In the beginning, this deal seemed too good to be true.
In the end, it proved to be just that.

Lesson learned...if it seems too good to be true, it probably is.

REWARD...Albino Lavender Retic!

[Steeve B]

well I have emails till 19 octobre 2003 thats all, but I think this prety much some up our exchang concerning the croc,s

aim sorry but aim not here to offend you, you seem to think aim being dishonest with you, and I think your wrong.
we are in a dead end
show me how I failed you?
its easy to call pepoles names
just show me how I failed you, and Il do my very best to fix things up!
dont just run away from me calling me names, and pleas dont hide under your new statue, to me your a person like the rest of us, and no you cant be always right, I no aim not.
you probably think your dealing with a kid who will run in shame when confronted, but no I stand up and take my due, good or bad

[rsg]

You guys are not alone. There are many others that have been mislead and the pattern is usually the same.

First he makes outlandish claims, followed by strange excuses. When questioned or asked for proof he will get angry and cause trouble. Once all of the offending posts are eliminated, he will apologize to all the good peoples on the forum and point out what a great guy he is.

Good Luck

[Steeve B]

thanks Richard your realy helping us solve this delema
happy hollydays to varanus.net crew

[Steeve B]

Damit dont run away
SHOW ME WHERE I HAVE FAILED YOU

[Scales Zoo]

Originally posted by Steeve B
SHOW ME WHERE I HAVE FAILED YOU


Play "spot the crocodile monitors"

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/763whole.jpg

[Steeve B]

if you cant show me how I failed you, then you will be like all others who claimed things against me without support, pleas dont do this, think about it and act like a man.
aim telling you if aim wrong I will make amendment.
dont coward on me buy ignoring me

[rsg]

Nope, no crocodile monitors there.
You would think with all the captive bred animals he produces, it wouldn't be any problem coming up with a bunch of animals to fill that cage.
Heck, I would think with all that experience a simple thing like shipping an animal would be no problem.

[Steeve B]

Are you serious that’s it? Your impatience that’s how I failed you!
Man you really don’t deserve these monitors, good on you

Rsg
You really where out of place, this hade nothing to do with you

[NiagaraReptiles]

Originally posted by Steeve B
Are you serious that’s it? Your impatience that’s how I failed you!
Man you really don’t deserve these monitors, good on you


From an outsiders stand point, I'd said you failed to deliver your end of the deal. Regardless of what you claim your delema is/was, it is still a failure to come through on a verbal contract.

Originally posted by Steeve B
Rsg
You really where out of place, this hade nothing to do with you

You have to be kidding! You're posting this on a public forum and saying that it's not the business of others??? hahahaha


I am really not wanting to get involved in this, and I didn't at the begining because I wanted to give Steeeve the benefit of the doubt this time........

I am truely sorry Ryan and Sheila. I guess now you are appointed to join "the dark side" with myself, rsg, FR, Jefe......

[asphyxia]

With respect to my experiences withSteve B.

Fact: Everything Steve has Sold or Given to me has been 100% Top Shelf.
Fact: Every question I have asked, including breeding, incubation, husbindary, and health issues with respect to feeders, monitors and snakes, I have recieved a knowledgable answer to
Fact: In my opinion Steve has forgottin more about montiors than most people know, and has proven to me that he knows more than anyone else with respect to monitors.
Fact: All his advice to me has been correct (even upon further research)
Fact: I would do business with him over anyone else with respect to monitors
Fact: Steve is the only reason I am in the Varanid Forum.
Fact: He does take a while to ship ..he must have a life
Fact: He does not have to "Prove" anything to any body

With respect to Scales Zoo:

I am sorry things did not work out, I am sure in time they will

Brian

[Retic chic]

Ryan is one of the most patient and understanding people you will ever meet - after all, he's married to me!

This deal was the highlight of his passion for reptiles. When it began to fall apart, he became disenchanted. Every time he would get his hopes up to receive the monitors, something would come up that there would be a delay, one was sick, one was egg bound, one was dead...after nearly 4 months we called off the deal. No offence Steeve, if you cannot provide the animals as promised, just say so. If you regret making the promise, and think it was a mistake, say so. But do not lead on an individual who has more passion for reptiles, particularly croc monitors, than anyone I know. You have lost credibility by making excuses. I would not enter into another deal with you myself. Ryan is done with you as well.

We ave both learned a valuable lesson in patience and human nature, Thank you.

I wish you luck with your endeavors, you are going to need it. You may be an expert with the monitors, and have an ability achieve success like never before. Even if this is so, your lack of professionalism and business ettiquette when dealing with people will be the ruin of your accomplishments.

And last of all, this is not about money or being cheap. Out of exasperation, Ryan is spending good money on a lavender albino retic that we are certain will be delivered as promised, when promised, without delay, without excuses, and without the seller changing his mind. I have always wanted one, so thank you again.


You asked for a donation to ssnakess in return for the pair of croc monitors. I hope Jeff will use it to pay for the bandwidth this thread has wasted.

Have a good life, Steeve

Sheila

[Steeve B]

Sheila
all I will say aim arguing to solve a problem not to creat one!
things dont have to be this way
it seems to me ryan tunrned the heat half way into incubation, losing the time and efort alredy given, and also losing the outcome!
life insent a simple do it now thing, when I called you the other day with a good news, you said Ryan whod be pleased taking a hevy laod off my sholders, now its simple transfer $400 and you get the crocs. dont give me this I dont trust you bull, if youd rather keep retics in your nice cage then thats fine by me. however I refuse to be treated as a reptiles dealer, aim not, many of my animals iv waited a very long time for them, this pair aim offering you took almost a year just to hatch.
now I too dont whant to deal with you, not becaus I dont trust you, I do and I think both of you are nice pepoles, however now I know you dont trust me, and this I dont like.
Ryan
you have failed me as a friend
you have failed me as a moderator
some of these post are aimed at creating problems not solving them.

[daver676]

Whats with all the nts on the first page? I wanna catch up!

[Steeve B]

sorry daver676
I hope other have kept the post Iv deleted in the first page!
these crocs and a few events are realy getting to me, and one day out of frostration I deleted many post I tot whod start trouble. I also deleted my photo album in the same spirit
aim sorry for thos who deserve them, as I dont remember them I cant fix, my mistake

its easy to say anything about others not knowing whats realy happenig in there lifes, these past few months Iv passed more time between Hospitals then home, and when I see pepoles getting impatient for little meningless things it opsets me, and I jump the gun

[mbayless]

Steve,
Just take it easy....it is not that important right now - You're dealing with some very tough things right now; Ive been there, done that for slightly different reasons, and when these things happen, life goes in slow motion, taking 1 day at a time, so do that and do not let any stress enter your life - in the long run it is not worth it.

As for rsg and jefe posts, forget them - they have nothing to do with Ryan and Sheila and are just butting their noses where it does not belong....go figure?

If Ryan and Sheila are impatient, they will simply have to accept your tardiness in this sending shipment buisiness....people who have not been at death's door personally have abosultely NO IDEA how it effects you and your day-to-day affairs....this is not an excuse, but reality, and people either understand that, don't understand it, or do not care....and you as a person have to be concerned with Numero Uno = #1!!

good luck!
markb

[Steeve B]

I think iv demonstrated my good will to satisfy scale zoo, however they’ve shown absolutely no willingness to solve anything, they treated this as a business deal when it was really an hobbyist affair no more! Aim not commercial and will never be, to him and others who thinks I have any commercial obligations, my animals are mine especially if you haven’t given a single penny for them, I can choose to retire from any deal when ever I feel like it, for any reason I see fit they are my monitors. My obligations on this thread was to find a responsible keeper, not to satisfy anyone in particular, one of those who participated on this thread was Chuck911jeep he seemed like the least person fit to keep this specie, however limited his experience he’s proven to me buy obtaining 2 pairs of Tegus and doing a fine job keeping and soon breeding them that he will do the same with crocs, therefore aim sending the croc pair to him, as he agreed to pay me the $400 expense fees I contracted while busting my ball trying to pleas scale zoo, as promised this money will be donated to this site to be used at their discretion.

Aim not going to cover this sad story again, I feel scale zoo was foolish and regardless of how they feel about this, the facts remains the same, they backed out of obtaining the croc monitors while at the same time trying to make me look wrongful, Too Good To Be True! anyone thinking otherwise re-read this thread.

I gave you a chance even after being called a FAKE how much more can I freeken bend for you, no more! Adios

Ps. Chuck I hope you post plenty of photos

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/959Photo_119-med.jpg Mark how can I take it easy? shes not comming back!

[Retic chic]

Congratulations Justin! I am happy to see that you are getting these monitors. Enjoy them.

Sheila

[mbayless]

Yes, I see your point....she is not coming back. Damn shame! They did not respect your agreement and you did what you had to do...they got mad at you, slung some mud in your face, and who comes out of it hurt? Both parties, but most of all the dead lizard....very sad.

I am glad someone else is getting them and you can move on with your life and animals....a very painful lesson for all, too expensive a lesson in my book.

Best Regards,
markb

[Steeve B]

NO NO Mark Respacting agreement was never a Problem, its only a matter of Patience nothing more!

This thread will now continue with the new owner
I wish both parties are Happy with there desision

Rgds

ps. after a post mortem examen the female wasent doing very good and maybe whod have died anyways, I can post a photo and diagnosis if this interest others

[Siretsap]

How could the croc monitor die on the way to the airport?
In my opinion, if you are that good with monitors and tell people how to treat them and raise them, I don't see how it would have died on the way to the airport. I would like some enlightment on that.
Thanks
Michael
ps, why do you want the 400$?

[Steeve B]

The female died at the air port not on the way to! it was a mistake from a well intentioned personel, nothing I cauld do about

but if this may interest you, she overheated the male being above survived.

I alredy responded to your last ?
it has now been delt with by the new owner
life int free
Rgds

[Steeve B]

heres one of my exchanges concerning this female, for thos interested

Hi Steve,

Comments below from the university vet. At the time she didn't know that the animal had died of heat stress; the 'no "suddenly"' comment means that this was something that was a long time going wrong. I talked to her later, and she agrees that the GI tract and spleen abnormalities were probably short-term things, the result of the animal being overheated, and not informative regarding its health otherwise.

Talking with her more, the liver could look like that from a chronic bacterial infection (Salmonella most likely), or from coccidia, or from any of several viruses that are showing up in herps and causing hepatitis. Whatever, she suggests that you try to find out (via fecal samples), because those causes would most likely be present in all animals exposed to this one.

Sorry it's not definitive, hard to tell a huge amount from just a photo.

Cheers,
Sam

Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 12:55 PM
Subject: RE: female croc

There's no "suddenly" in that gross necropsy photos. That liver looks to have multifocal lesions that appear granulomatous. That takes time to develop. The GI tract is not happy either. I'd bet on chronic bacterial infection. To really diagnose this case: impression smear of a cut section of the liver might reveal organisms. Histopathology of tissues to make the final diagnosis.
Diane McClure, DVM, PhD, ACLAM
Campus Vet/Director
Animal Resource Center
University of California

http://research.ucsb.edu/iacuc/iacuc.shtml
-----Original Message-----

Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 11:36 PM

Subject: Fw: female croc
Jeez, good things come in bunches! Another contact, another abruptly dead monitor, what is this, Dead Monitor Week? The liver lesions look pretty bad, but the GI tract and spleen ain't looking too good either. Follicles of several sizes, oviduct looks like it's been used before. Why are the kidney lobes of different colors?

At ten bucks a look, you might be able to make a decent living off this.

SS



----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 9:36 PM
Subject: female croc

Hello Sam

This female died yesterday, she seems to have a bad liver? Can you tell me anything from this photo.
She’s in the freezer now, is there anything I can do with her body that may be helpful to science?
Rgds
post mortem photo
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/959Photo_121-med.jpg

[mbayless]

Hi Steve,

I have never seen fat body organs discolored like that before? I do not know if that is significant or not? It looks like she has egg folicles down at her cloaca region - could that be egg bound? It is hard to see through the messentary, which 'appears' to still be intact (the thin tissue that holds the organs within a bag, separating them from the inner muscles of the body wall).

The white spotting on the lower right side looks odd. If those are developing folicles, then I suspect that is directly related to her demise.

Thank you for sharing, and again, how sad to die in an airport due to error/neglect on airport staff....so sad to lose a life of such a unique inexplicable saurian....

regards Steve,
markb