First Fresh Kill experience (WARNING - graphic detail)

[Invictus]

So, in a further effort to get my stubborn Kenyan onto pre-killed food, I decided to try fresh killed. Bought a hopper mouse, brought the cute little thing home, and put it in a bag. Having just whacked a fuzzy (and almost crying, I might add), TheRedDragon wanted to give it a try, so she whacked this hopper mouse on the table. It was stunned but still twitching. Wanting to do the humane thing and make sure it died and didn't suffer, I took the bag and gave it a much harder whack, and, well.... SPLLLLLLAT! I totally whacked it too hard and its insides were all over the bag. I was hardly about to feed it to my snake at this point. So, from now on I'll let Dragon do the mouse whacking.

I also wanted to add that I really felt like crap because I really like mice. I know it's all about what's best for my snake, so I did it anyway.

I'd like to know other peoples' first experience with fresh killed prey. Did you also feel a sense of guilt over it? Did you make the mouse go splat like I did?

[marisa]

hhaha not laughing at you but with you.

We whack all the mice we fed. My first time I accidently hit the face, which caused the mouse obvious extreme pain and it was flopping around so i had to re-whack.

I find holding the tail, and the hitting on the head with a hard object is easier for us than using the bag method. But I also know a few people who love the bag method. *shrug*

First experiences putting any animal down are usually sad and upsetting but you get used to it and eventually it won't be no thang. :D

Marisa

[BoidKeeper]

Yes I used to have a problem taking them home and wacking them. Now that I raise my own and bag and freeze on a weekly basis it doesn't bother me anymore. It's too much like work now to bother feeling sorry about them anymore. But in the begining I used to feel terible about it. And I've had a few bust open in my time too, not fun and a wast of coin because like you did I don't feed thoese ones to my snakes either.
Cheers,
Trevor

[jncoclub]

I let my redneck roommate do the wacking- doesn't seem to bother him. I think it's in his blood.

[crucified]

how big is the kenyan?
mine was a picky feeder.. i had to feed it live pinkies which i didnt enjoy.. it took a fuzzy once.. and then it wouldnt eat.. so after 2-3 months of it not eating its killed food i decided.. id show it a rat pinkie.. i didnt think it would be able to take the meal its pretty small still my kenyan.. and anywayz it just went mad and attacked the rat pinkie like a madman.. and well now its on rat pinkies and growing like a little beast.. give rat pinkies a try.. dead ones that is.. no live :)
good luck..

[Wrath]

BoidKeeper, but what do you do to them before you bag and freeze them?

[Invictus]

Originally posted by crucified
how big is the kenyan?

My picky live-only feeder is a 4 year old adult female - 27 inches in length. She feeds on hoppers and adults, depending on how long it's been since her last meal.

i decided.. id show it a rat pinkie.. i didnt think it would be able to take the meal its pretty small still my kenyan.. and anywayz it just went mad and attacked the rat pinkie like a madman.. and well now its on rat pinkies and growing like a little beast.. give rat pinkies a try.. dead ones that is.. no live :)
good luck..

Rats of any kind are extremely difficult to obtain in Alberta, even frozen, because of the pest control act. But I suppose I'll give that a try if fresh killed mice fails.

As fr the size, well... I also have a baby (I'm talking not even 2 months) Kenyan who I have a fuzzy to last night, and he downed it like it was nothing. A lot of people would say that was to big a prey item for a baby, but I feed big. My snakes seem to love it. I get AWESOME feeding responses from the ones I've been feeding large items to.

[Linds]

Can't remember my first experience. I have no problems doing it, but I do still feel bad sometimes, especially with retired female breeders. I just do it quick and hard so its over with. No sense in thinking about it. I got used to it very fast. I couldn't even give you an estimate of how many rodents I have split over the years either...lol :rolleyes:

<img src="http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/507/22tasha_intofood.jpg" alt="usually the rat is in the snake, not vice versa!">

[BoidKeeper]

If they're mice I sperate their neck at the base of the skull. If it's rats then I put them in a bag and wack them.
Trevor

[Mike177]

once i shot a rat in the head with a pellit gut. omg i felt soooooo bad. cuz i had to shoot it like 5 times.

[wyz]

Invictus, you probably tried his allready, but if not.. It works for me all the times with stubburned eaters.

Put the snake in a pillow case and give him a dead prey. But open up it's skull so that a bit of brain comes out.. the smell will trigger your snakes instinct. Lets your snake there for a night, the next morning the mouse or rat should be in is belly.

WYZ

[lordkovacs]

Linds, that's gross... damn. but if i were a snake that would be like, well, ummm, chicken wings and beer maybe? haha...
MIKE

[The_Omen]

:)
Just wait till you see a gutted rat get eaten slurpily, innards first, then folded in 1/2 and sucked down.

CO2 is the way to enmass with rodents.
Other than that, cervicle dislocation works well.

Several ways to do that also.

Swinging by the tail aiming the back of the skull at a table edge or counter edge.
Steel rod, rebar works well.
Pin the neck to the floor and yank the tail up sharply till you hear Rice Crispys.
And putting its' head under your foot, yanking the tail till you hear the snap, crackle, pop.

I still don't understand why the Pest Control Act should/would affect the availability of getting rats from pet stores.
Or just breeding your own for that matter if possible.

[jncoclub]

WYZ- I did that with my burm who was picky with f/t- it worked great.

[Lisa]

i cried the first time i had to kill rodents.

[Linds]

Originally posted by The_Omen
I still don't understand why the Pest Control Act should/would affect the availability of getting rats from pet stores.
Or just breeding your own for that matter if possible.

Because the Pest Control act is just that. Live rats are illegal to sell, keep or breed in the province of Alberta, whether for use as food or pets, unless used in laboratories and such.

[Nic]

I was going to make a gas chamber for the rats dos eny one out their have plans for one or do i have to wing it

[Siretsap]

Sucks to live in Alberta. They should limit the number of cats allowed in houses. Or have them nutered and fixed. I am quite sure you see more stray cats than rats.

[Linds]

Siretsap,
Most, if not all places, have a limit of dogs and or cats allowed per residential household. Average 2-4 per household usually. Rural places don't share the same restrictions. I do believe Alberta did have a problem with rat infestations in downtown establishments, grocery stores, etc., which was the reason for the ban. Hopefully someone that knows more about that will be able to elaborate, confirm, or correct that. Rodent infestations are far different from domestic animal (cat/dog) problems.

[MouseKilla]

I will start with the end of my story, or rather, the moral of the story. It goes like this: ... and that's why from now on I'll bonk the rats in the basement. I stopped at my prey breeder's place the other day at around 4 in the afternoon, we had to be at the father-in-law's place for dinner at 7. It usually takes me a couple of hours to get everyone fed so I thought, no prob, lots of time. I feed a combo of mice and rats. I consider mice harmless, never had any injuries to my animals from them so they go straight in. Rats on the other hand I know from experience to be mean SOBs, so they get bonked first. It only takes one crack with the piece of 1x2 holding my window open to incapacitate them enough to feed but left overs need to be totally dead before freezing. This time I had 2 left over. First one: 2 whacks, done, into the bag. Second one: first whack started convulsions, the next split it's nose but didn't stop the violent twitching. I ended up sitting on the floor of my bedroom holding what had become a blood sprinkler by the tail. It got on my clothes, my carpet, I had to turn my head to avoid splattering my face. The room looked like a crime scene. We were late for dinner. And that's why from now on I'll bonk 'em in the basement.

[striko_69]

the first time me and my brother did it, he tried it but it didt work, so he jumped away because he almost threw up! there was already a bit of guts (i think?!?) out, but it was alive!!! i was so scared that i hit it on the head with a hammer, which killed it instantly, which is better (even if it is disgusting). I had felt quite bad because the pet shop had always done it before then.

[KingFfaj]

I cant wait till I get to kill my own rodents:D at least I get to know how they died and also i get to break some necks:D but then i am a little bit sadist, I cant wait:)

[Delighted2b]

Believe it or not... I have yet to have to do this... Everything I have takes frozen... I don't know if I would be able to do the fresh kill thing....


Danielle

[Pia]

Linds: Eewwww, what happened there?

[Beejay]

Originally posted by Invictus
Did you also feel a sense of guilt over it? Did you make the mouse go splat like I did?

awwwww :(

Well, the first time I killed a rodent was by accident in grade five when I crushed a baby gerbil with a piece of the cage furnishings after cleaning the tank. I felt guilty.

Anyhow, speed ahead several decades (lol) and yeah, I did the same thing with a fuzzy, the splatter thing. It was unpleasant to look at but it was a learning experience.

With several older mice and the few rats I've culled, it became easier but it was a gradual process and I'm still squeamish. I've been buying F/T for about a year now again and am starting off with the freshly killed as I'm breeding rats. If you're sensitive about it now, then I predict it won't get too much easier for you.

Maybe select a new method, that doesn't seem as violent, such as dry ice.

Just my two cents.

And good luck getting your animal to switch over.

Bj :D

[V.hb]

ehhhhhh, I have to agree with a non violent way to kill the rodent....... I think its incredibly brutal to wack the hell out of a rodent... there are other alternatives to do this.. and if all else fails, it should be the LAST resort, like in Invictus's case.. But as far as fresh killing all your rodents using force IMO is wrong... invest in a more humane, less violent method...

[MouseKilla]

I'm trying to figure out why anyone needs to pre-kill something as defenceless as a fuzzy or hopper in the first place. I mean they're snakes for God's sake, killing rodents is what they do. I bonk medium or larger rats because I don't want my animals getting injured but other than that what is the need? I feel that if you can let the snake take down it's prey it's the best thing for all concerned, you don't have to do it, the snake gets to act like a snake and, best of all, no splattering.

[marisa]

Mousekilla actually you are somewhat correct. Most people only feed dead pinks and fuzzies so switching to dead later on when it matters is easier. Live pinks or fuzzies pose no threat to a snake. It just makes it easier if you start off with thawed/fresh killed/ etc for later on.

I do NOT believe whacking is inhumaine and I would invite ANYONE to come to my home and watch us on whacking day. My BF has become a pro at this and after a few hundred rodents you hardly ever ever get anything but *instant* kills. How something dying instantly is inhumane I have no idea. But, um, o.k. :D Everyone has their own methods I guess. I'd surely prefer to hit mine over the head then feed live and watch them suffocate slowly.

Here is a bad experience we had, although not fresh killed. A thawed feeder I accidently heated up WAY too much. LOL.

<img src="http://members.rogers.com/mattl/Josegross.jpg">

And of course, since it was Jose, he had absolutly no problems ripping chunks off like a dog and eating them until I was able to get it away from him. LOL. This snake would eat pork chops if I gave them to him.

:D

Marisa

[MouseKilla]

"WHACKING DAY OHHH WHACKING DAY..." I love that song. Anyway I think that you need to be high think anything, including dry ice, CO2 and rocking prey animals gently to sleep in your arms is any more humane than the way God intended the predator to consume it's prey. While we're talking about being humane I find it exceedingly odd that no one seems to consider how inhumane it is to prevent a naturally predatory animal from behaving like one, if only to the limited extent possible within an enclosure. I think we owe it to our beasts to give them as close to a natural existence as possible, otherwise why not just feed them ground rat through a tube? This pre-killed = humane idea is the hypocritical spawn of a society willing to eat the meat but not kill the animal.

PS. that's a beautiful snake you have there

[Linds]

Originally posted by MouseKilla
"Anyway I think that you need to be high think anything, including dry ice, CO2 and rocking prey animals gently to sleep in your arms is any more humane than the way God intended the predator to consume it's prey.

How can you say that instant deaths, or deaths in which the animal is rendered unconscious prior to its death is not a more humane death than being suffocated for minutes????????????? You cannot compare captive practices to wild. They are not the same. Everything is altered in captivty. In captivty, these animals don't have to suffer, if you have no problems with your animals suffering unecessarily, well thats your choice, but there's no reason to say we are high for those of us that have problems with needless suffering.

I find it exceedingly odd that no one seems to consider how inhumane it is to prevent a naturally predatory animal from behaving like one, if only to the limited extent possible within an enclosure. I think we owe it to our beasts to give them as close to a natural existence as possible,


By taking an animal in captivity the animal is no longer leading a natural existence. All the conditions, no matter how much you try to simulate them, you can't. The prey knows the predator is there and so forth, which creates an increasingly risky situation. It is impossible for a snake to lead a natural life in captivity no matter how hard you try, and by disregarding this fact you are endangering your snake.

[reptilesalonica]

I love and respect life, all life and nature. But also i understand the important role of the pyramid of life.
I don't hate mice and i don't feel guilty when i have to feed alive or pre-killed to snake(s). Mice are respectable for their contribution to the world but when a snake (who eats rodents) must eat to survive, then a mouse must die to save the life of that snake.
This is the balance of life and respecting that, you respect snake's nature.
This is their food, they eat rodents while we eat almost everything...
...continuing from that, snakes are far more innocent than humans.
They kill only what they will eat.
Man can kill something because can't understand it (bugs, snakes etc.)
~Greg~

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Back in the day when I had all my snakes I had a mixture of feeding live and dead prey, depending on snake and I wont go back into the reasonings..

As for my first killing I had a large rat in a plastic sack and after the first hit the rodent was still very much alive, I guess I swing like a girl, but when I went for a second go at it the bag ripped and the rat flew across the room and the mouse was looking like he did before he went into the bag.. Needless to say Ive mastered the art of 'whacking' though I rarely use it nowadays being I only have two snakes left and both eat hoppers, which are fed live. I do sometimes prekill Flemish giants and boy that can crush an animal lover's soul in a minute.
I find it a bit odd that a lot people enjoy the death an animal, especially if they are animal keepers. Me, I enjoy all life, all the aspects of it and if the animal doesn't try and eat me while Im alive (Mosquitos) it's cool. I always get a sad feeling when it comes to feeding, dead or alive, yet I am a big fan of the food chain and I love watching nature's best at it's work.

For the record, Linds. I keep my animals out doors and they live in ponds ( crocs and turtles ) which is pretty basic of where they live in the wild. Would you cut that to being pretty close to natural living or no because there's a fence enclosing each enclosure? I'm just curious of the boundaries everyone has on the natural/captive housing bits.
GoodDay,
Xain

[MouseKilla]

Instant deaths? Please. No method is instant. If you occasionally get in a lucky homerun swing it may be as close as it gets but other than that rare occurance the poor little vermin suffer more at our hands. The snakes take down live prey with remarkable speed and efficiency, it is a system perfected over thousands of years of evolution. Least instant of all, in my experience, are the so-called humane methods of gassing or otherwise asphixiating. You don't get your hands dirty and it may not weigh as heavily on your conscience but it is no better for the prey. And again, what about the snake? Of course we can't perfectly simulate nature and where the safety of the animals we keep is in question I believe in giving them what amounts to an unfair advantage. It may mean that you have a mouse that has no way to escape the enclosure or that you have rapped a rat in the head to stun it. All I'm saying is let the snake be a snake to the greatest extent you can possibly offer without excessive risk to the safety of the animal. If you don't agree then like I said why not just feed them through a tube? Maybe there's a market out there for canned snake food for people who want to keep snakes and not be honest about the fact that rodents must die for the snake to live. The idea that we can consistently reduce the suffering of the prey by beating it repeatedly in the head or choking it with gas is an illusion. But hey, if it makes you feel better....

[daver676]

I remember my first (and last) fresh killed experience. It was with a fuzzy mouse. I am very sensitive about animal death, so my gf said she would do it. She put this little fuzzy in a ZipLoc bag and gave it a wack, and it seemed dead enough. Since the snake wouldn't take it, we decided to assist feed it to the snake. But once in the mouth of the snake, the fuzzy began twitching violently and squeaking! I was absolutely horrified!

The mouse eventually stopped moving and squeaking once my bp got the idea and coiled around it, but OMG! I guess I'm just a softy. And yes, softies are allowed to own snakes!

After that, I said screw it, and just started assist feeding my bp f/t rat pinkies, and the other day, she finally ate one on her own. That made me very happy.

[V.hb]

marisa, you and others still argue that your rodents die instantly......... Do you have them hooked up to some kind of monitor to prove this? No, iam not saying you should, its sarcasm. But honestly, you cannot prove the animal dies painlessly, and that is why I feel "whacking" rodents, espeacially in the quantity you say you have done should be frowned upon when there are humane alternatives.....

[MouseKilla]

You don't need a monitor to know that most of the time bonking results in anything but instant, painless kills. All you have to do is read the first hand testimonials in this very forum, including the gory experience I described to figure that one out. I'm glad someone sees that truth besides me. On the other hand I would still like to hear what these so-called "humane" alternative methods are. You won't persuade me that any kind of gassing or suffocation or drowning or freezing alive is any less painfull than nature's chosen method of doing it: the snake itself. Killing rodents is the snake's very role in nature, NOTHING does it better. The only thing that comes to mind that would be truly painless would be using a veterinary anesthetic. Maybe that's the answer for those so concerned about not hurting anything. When they get back from the vet supply store I suggest they have a look in their own freezer and ask themselves if they think the meat in there was produced with such high regard for the animals it was taken from.

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

INVICTUS:

OUCH, sorry to hear the experience was not the greatest. I only feed frozen thawed and hope I never have to feed live or have the power to kill a animal. I love fishing but I do look like sappiest fisherman out when its comes to releasing a fish back to the water. So hurting or killing a mouse would just be to hard for me, although I am not a fan of rodents I still could not do it. If I ever have to I will just get THEREDDRAGON to do it for me then....lol.

Cya...

Tony

[Ryan and Katie]

Pre-killed is the way to go. I dont agree with anyone who feeds live unless they have to. Feeding pre-killed is the healthiest option for our snakes. Any parasites that the rodent is carrying should be killed by the freezing process.
People came from the basis of being hunter-gatherers, now all I have to hunt for is change in my pocket for a burger. Do you think all those cows were killed humanely?...
I have seen many wild caught snakes and alot of them have been littered with scars. Some die from infections from those bites. Yes snakes are amazing hunters but in captivity you have the ability to control certain factors. All of my snakes will happily accept pre-killed food.
It is all just perspective...

[Linds]

Originally posted by KrokadilyanGuy3
For the record, Linds. I keep my animals out doors and they live in ponds ( crocs and turtles ) which is pretty basic of where they live in the wild. Would you cut that to being pretty close to natural living or no because there's a fence enclosing each enclosure? I'm just curious of the boundaries everyone has on the natural/captive housing bits.
GoodDay,
Xain


I'm sure everyone has been referencing mainly to snakes in this thread, maybe some lizards as well. This is what I was referring to, as snakes are not housed outdoors in captivity in N. America and most of Europe I believe as well, even in zoos. Unless the animals are given the free space they are in the wild, even if they are housed outdoors, if it is small enough parasites can become a serious problem. I keep my iguana outdoors in the summer, and I attribute her age to this, but I do not consider it natural living still, even though she's outdoor with natural sun and perfect temps and humidity. No doubt its the closest thing you can get to it, and far better than the little cages we house most of our animals in indoors. The more captive the situation, the more potential problems you must be aware of.

Originally posted by MouseKilla
Instant deaths? Please. No method is instant. If you occasionally get in a lucky homerun swing it may be as close as it gets but other than that rare occurance the poor little vermin suffer more at our hands. The snakes take down live prey with remarkable speed and efficiency,

Hmmm... now the girl I have here that feeds on live sure takes a several minutes to suffocate her prey every meal. They strike with incredible speed, but they don't kill with the same. Luckily most of my animals will take dead prey. I still stick by the fast means of killing my rodents possible. Prey suffers less than it has to, animal eating it is at no risk of injury from its dinner :D How is this not better than prey suffering for minutes longer than it has to, and the animal feeding on it being at risk of serious injury? And there is instant, if you inflict massive trauma to the head it dies... gas is not instant, but it is the least painless, the animal gets dizzy and passes out before it feels a thing.

[marisa]

I completly agree with LInds.

Like I said come to my house folks. We aren't lying here. The rodents die slower by us? ARE YOU JOKING ME? The snakes I have take up to two full minutes to kill the mouse. You honestly are telling me the mice I whack are not dead within two minutes? haha o.k. If that if the case, my part of this arguement is over. It's pointless.

Feeding mice is feeding. Go on all day about how much more humane you think are than me, in the end its the same result, the mouse is dead.

Marisa

[marisa]

One more thing. We whack mice, so please dont tell me whats happening at my house by saying instant death is rare. I will video tape an entire whacking day for you, but apparently you already know what is going on in my home better than I do!

We have only killed about 800 rodents this way, and your right, they are all still alive an kicking after a whack, I am just heartless and still insist on that method. Yup. *rolls eyes*

No offense, this is JUST a discussion but I dont like people saying that something is going on in my home when it clearly is not. (i.e. "apparently" my mice are all alive and kicking minutes and minutes after a whack)

Marisa

[MouseKilla]

M, You're right, what can I tell you? I have no idea what happens at your house but you must have a gift for killing the things cuz while I have had that odd homerun swing that does kill them instantly more often than not this isn't what happens. WHACK! TWITCH TWITCH!! WHACK!! TWITCH BLEED TWITCH WHACK BLEED! Maybe I'm using the wrong tool for the job... what do you use? Louisville Slugger??? Sledge hammer??? Read some of these other posts and tell me those rodents didn't suffer far more brutal deaths at human hands than if the splattered and mutillated things had just been tossed in the tank with nature's exterminators in the first place or even after the first whack. Maybe it's not like that when you do it but like I said you must have a talent. For the record, I still use the whacking method because I feel that if you must kill the rodent yourself, like in the case of left overs or big nasty rats that can potentially hurt the snake, whacking is still better than gassing which I feel is worse than anything next to death by a thousand cuts. At least you aren't one of these people that feel better buying only pre-killed prey because THEY don't have to slaughter the hundreds of mice that we both have. Basically all the pre-killed you can buy have been gassed to death for the simple reason it's the only way to kill mass quantities without spending days cracking rodent skulls. At least you're honest with yourself about the fact that sometimes someone has to do it and aren't too squeemish to do it yourself. Some folks seem to have the mistaken idea that if they don't do the deed then they aren't responsible. Malarky, that's what I say. I would like to see that instructional video you're offering though, I'm genuinely curious. As for offending me, you need not worry about that. I am being intentionally provocative because I find it brings out people's true feelings about a subject and their best arguements, all part of the fun.

[Ryan and Katie]

Originally posted by MouseKilla
At least you aren't one of these people that feel better buying only pre-killed prey because THEY don't have to slaughter the hundreds of mice that we both have.

What is that supposed to mean? All I buy is pre-killed food. I don't have the time to breed, whack, and freeze food for the over twenty snakes I own. It is really nice to have frozen food available at all times. I remember when I first started keeping snakes and I had to kill mice, hamsters, rabbits, etc. Thank god that has changed because I don't have the space or time. Have you ever whacked a rabbit?
Try not to generalize...

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

To stay on a snake to snake conversation..
I know (of) several private keepers who house there snakes in open enclosures which are quite large here in the states.

if it is small enough parasites can become a serious problem

Why would that be the case? A smaller area would be fairly easy to keep clean and sterile. Also, parasites will and quite often do happen with nearly any captive animal, whether it's indoors or not; One reason why annual checkups and treatments are a must for any captive animal. Anyhow, here is a pic of the well know Haast standing outside his EDB outdoor enclosure..
Xain

http://ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1227hasst.jpg

[MouseKilla]

R&K, please don't misunderstand my point, I don't think it is wrong to have or use pre-killed, I use them myself if need be, I sure won't waste any left overs. I just think that some people are fooling themselves into thinking it is somehow more humane to have someone else do the dirty work. It may make some people feel less guilty but the prey sure doesn't know the difference. As for your rabbit question, I honestly haven't done that yet but I imagine it won't be long before some of my snakes are big enough to need to eat them. Not sure why you ask but I'm sure it's quite the chore. Doesn't sound like a lot of laughs but if it must be done then I guess I'll need to do it. Part of keeping the big guys I guess. I know I won't be able to talk the wife into it, not after her splattered mouse in a grocery bag experience.

[Lisa]

Originally posted by MouseKilla
For the record, I still use the whacking method because I feel that if you must kill the rodent yourself, like in the case of left overs or big nasty rats that can potentially hurt the snake, whacking is still better than gassing which I feel is worse than anything next to death by a thousand cuts.


With gassing the rodent feels nothing but sleepy... Try it for your self, run a tube from your car exaust to your window, start her up and get in... Carbon Dioxide is considered a silent killer because there is no warning other then being tired. No odor, no taste, no colour, no fits of coughing, no pain. It over rides any self preservation mechanism your body has because the body doesn't know it's dieing. I've watched the rodents die. they take a couple breaths, pass out, then die.

I'd sooner take a gassing then be thrown through the air against the wall, hit with a hammer, had my head twisted off, or the other more physical means of death.

[MouseKilla]

whoa..... you're.....right....I'm feeling a little....light headed.... should I pull over? other drivers are looking at me funny.... I must admit this is better than when Dad used to throw me into the wall on report card day. Ok, your turn. I have this old deep freeze down in my basement I'm not using how 'bout you come over, I'll plug it in and grab some patio slabs from out back, you know, to keep the lid down while yer in there. I hear freezing to death is actually quite pleasant. I must say this is the most fun I've ever had in any forum. Anywhere else no one seems to want to talk about the best ways to kill rodents, or yourself for that matter. Well maybe like a Marilyn Manson web site but who wants to talk to those people?

[Linds]

Originally posted by KrokadilyanGuy3
Why would that be the case? A smaller area would be fairly easy to keep clean and sterile

You have proven my point. In nature nothing is cleaned and kept sterile.. far from it. This is why you need the large open spaces so nothing becomes concentrated, hence leading to parasitic concentrations which will lead to sick animals.

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Ah ha. I see your point now.
Was a bit groggy the firsttime around.
Xain

[Mike177]

killing rodents is not a fun thing but it has to be done, weather u buy them frozen or live they die in some way at sometime. when i first got my snake i could not, and i would not kill a mouse. no if ands or buts about it. but i guess as you go on you grow a calus to killing. probly not a good thing for some people but what must be done must be done. now that i buy rabbits i have to kill them myself. (and i dont like doing i just let on of my freinds do it) cuz with the rabbits you have to grab there head and swing them back in one quick jerking motion. and heads have come right off them before. :( but it is just something you have to do if you want to keep snakes. i dont love killing but i love keeping snakes.

[Invictus]

Well, MouseKilla, you are on the right board. Luckily for you, there are plenty of breeders here who can help you replenish your stock of snakes when they get killed by your "humane" way of feeding.

And for the record, the twitching you see the mouse doing after you whack it is a normal nervous response for all creatures, including humans. It does not mean the mouse is still alive.

Also for the record, if you think that giving a snake prekilled prey is robbing them of their instincts, you should wait until I have the digital video of my snakes feeding. They strike and coil their prekilled mice faster and harder than some wild specimens I've seen. Besides that, snakes have a killing instinct in the wild because they HAVE to, not because they WANT to. If you think feeding your snake live prey is somehow humane, you're the one who is high, MouseKilla. Either that or you dad did whack you a little too hard on report card day.

[MouseKilla]

Alright, fine, I'll admit to maybe being a little high, especially since I inhaled those exhaust fumes. I'm not so stoned though that I would give my snakes any prey that stood the slimmest chance of hurting them. Again, I personally do bonk when it's necessary, but I don't when it's not. A mouse stands no chance in an enclosure with a boa constrictor of a reasonable size. I'm quite aware of what that twitching business is but are you sure they are dead or unconscious and not suffering at that point? I don't know myself, Dad wasn't quite that rough. Some of my snakes go after dead prey as you described, especially my kings, they don't seem to know the difference but others look at it like it's a head of lettuce and won't touch it without lots of provocation. On an unrelated note I must ask if that is a picture of you I see there and if so were you ever in a band called Type O Negative? Thanks for starting this thread man, it's been a fun debate.

[Invictus]

LOL... Rob Zombie, Al Snow, Jesus, now Peter Steele as well? I'm having an identity crisis here! hehehe I can impersonate Peter Steele's voice perfectly though. Just ask RedDragon. It drvies her crazy in a good way :)

[MouseKilla]

hahaha I was really hoping that smartass comment wouldn't be wasted on you, I suspected it wouldn't be though. You ever see that guy live? A friend of mine did and she said he had to be like 8ft tall. He was drinking from a bottle of wine on stage and appearently it looked like a beer bottle in his hands and he also had a stand up bass on a huge guitar strap. Do you think his food is pre-killed?

[AnimalLuver]

I just had my first experience with the kill. I was killing a small adult mouse. I held it by the tail and pinned it to the window sill (nearest hard place), by the neck with a ruler, and pulled the tail till I heard the spinal cord pop. I did feel kinda bad. Before I got into snakes (which was in the last year) I had owned mice as pets before. (although I did have a mean one latch onto my hand and make me bleed pretty good, which pissed me off so I fed it to my cats.) But other than that I never had to kill them before. I'm usually pretty stressed out, so I guess I can take out my fustrations by killing the mouse, then maybe I wont feel so bad.

Heidi
0.0.1 ball python

[Invictus]

Originally posted by MouseKilla
hahaha I was really hoping that smartass comment wouldn't be wasted on you, I suspected it wouldn't be though.

LOL.. never. Being the smartass that I am, I would never make you waste a comment. :)

You ever see that guy live? A friend of mine did and she said he had to be like 8ft tall.

6'9" actually. But yeah, he's a beast. :)

[reptilesalonica]

i dont love killing but i love keeping snakes.
Me too pal, but when you breed your own rodents, then you must do the dirty job.
We, city people, don't realize what it means to eat burgers (talking for all and for my self)...
And having to kill an animal, suddenly becomes a problem...
But...this is the only way to feed ourselves or our snakes...
By killing.
~Greg~

[MouseKilla]

seems obvious doesn't it? meat = dead animals. No way around it. We can argue all day about the least cruel way to get it done, I think that is what most of us are aiming for regardless of what we believe that method is. We also all want the best thing for the animals that we are feeding, though we have different beliefs regarding what that means. The one inescapable truth is that rodents must die for snakes to live. We might not like that it must be that way but it's how it is. When we humans eat we have a choice of killing an animal or destroying habitats and killing animals indirectly through agriculture. It's the grim, meat hook reality of life. For one organism to live others must die. Aren't I just a ray of sunshine? Buy the frozen feeders and hit the drive-thru and try not to think about it, that's my suggestion. It won't change a damn thing but maybe you won't turn out to be the bitter, negative jerk I've become.

[Linds]

Originally posted by MouseKilla
. A mouse stands no chance in an enclosure with a boa constrictor of a reasonable size. I'm

There's no doubt the mouse is gonna die, though it may stand no chance against its predator, it can still get a last word in :eek: *still bitter at the ant that bit her tongue*

[MouseKilla]

It not only hasn't a chance at survival but a mouse doesn't know what hit it. My boa waits in ambush and then damn near drives the thing through the side of the tank when it hits. I'll give you that rats are mean, horrid creatures that shouldn't be given the opportunity to sink their filthy teeth into my snakes, and they never are. I stun them up good style with a chunk of wood, which also works well for disciplining the cat (JK!). But mice?? I don't see how. Maybe if you put it up against a newborn corn snake. Mice are like foul smelling marshmellows with little legs and whiskers. I've certainly never seen one put up anything close to a fight with any of my snakes, if I did my live feeding days would come to a quick end and I may lose any respect I have for snakes as predators. Have you ever seen or even heard of this happening?

[Linds]

I know that I've been bitten by mice more times than I care to count, and often it did break the skin. If it can break my skin I'm sure it can do a number on an eye or mouth. I've never *knock on wood* had any accidents so far from feeding live, nothing more than snakes getting scratched scales by their little feet. Hehehe... foul smelling marshmallows with little legs and whiskers :p

[reptilesalonica]

I wouldn't leave ANY rodent unsupervised with my snakes.
Teared skin on snakes occurs when they left unsupervised from the owner and the snake don't grab them immediately.
I give alive only to my Hots and if i see that the snake won't grab the mouse in the next minute, i remove the mouse, and try again after 2 days.
Btw, i breed mice 1 & 1/2 years and never a mouse that were born in my place bite me or tried to do so.
Only the mice that i bought 1st time, to start with, were bitting on me.
I grab my mice from the tail and they are tame as it was a hamster or gerbil.
~Greg~

[MouseKilla]

Live prey unsupevised is just unspeakably stupid. I would feel sorry for any animal whose keeper is that foolish. I've never been bitten by a mouse either but I have almost been bitten by the snakes a couple times when I didn't drop it in quickly enough. I had WC garter snakes when I was a kid that I fed goldfish. I liked to taunt them with the fish and let them catch them in mid-air. That was fun until the one I had that was short an eye for some reason (and appearently short some depth perception) missed the fish and took my finger instead. He had my right index in past the first knuckle and it freaked me out, and it freaked the snake too as I panicked and began flailing him around. Once I calmed down I got him off with no harm to either of us and learned a valuable lesson about teasing hungry snakes.

[Linds]

Originally posted by reptilesalonica
I wouldn't leave ANY rodent unsupervised with my snakes.
Teared skin on snakes occurs when they left unsupervised from the owner and the snake don't grab them immediately.


I'm going to have to disagree. I have never experienced any tearing, but I have experienced superficial scratching, and it takes but a second... much faster than anyone can intercept. All to often they will constrict and tie the leg in with them or the second they constrict the rodent starts kicking, before you have a chance to grab the leg and keep it from kicking. I agree, rodents shouldn't be left unsupervised with any animal for any length of time not even a second, until they are good and dead.

I've been breeding the little stink bags for years now as well, and even though I pcik them up by the tails, sometimes the little hoppers still manage to curl around and bite.

[Invictus]

There have been pictures posted on this very bulletin board of blood pythons killed by adult mice. I have also seen, in a pet store here in Calgary, an 8' BCI that was MANGLED by a Guinea Pig. I'm talking scars 6-8 inches long, and not superficial ones either. To say that the prey, be it mouse or rat or guinea pig, has no chance against its predator is foolish. They have a VERY good chance.

[MouseKilla]

Seriously? A mouse???? I can believe the guinea pig thing those things have big teeth, I don't gamble with a rat any bigger than a fuzzy myself. I would like to know the circumstances surrounding a mouse killing any snake that's big enough to eat it. I'm trying to imagine it, I mean if it happened it then it happened but I would like to hear how. Seems to me there must have been something strange happening and some EXTREME negligence on the part of the keeper.

[Linds]

The incident of the blood being killed by the mouse was due to a stupid human error. They left the mouse (against claims otherwise) in with the snake unattended... snake wasn't hungry, mouse was. Death by supervised live feeding is not very common, however even with supervision, injuries can happen.

[MouseKilla]

Just as I suspected, sheer negligence. Still that blows my mind that a mouse (foul smelling marshmellow) could KILL any snake big enough to eat it. I've only ever had 1 injury to any of my snakes and I take full responsibility for it, in fact I felt very guilty about it. I had under-estimated the danger rats pose and fed a big one live to my clumsiest snake, a 5 ft eastern king who seems to just go blind with greed when he smells food. No ambush hunting for him, he just flies about with his mouth gaping open, snapping at anything and nothing. Well needless to say he only got enough of the rat at first to make it bite back, he had the rat by the tail as I recall and the rat took a chunk out of him. The king quickly regained the advantage and had a good meal in the end but I felt terrible about the injury. Since then I don't risk it with the rats but as I said I haven't seen anything in the hundreds of mice I've fed to my collection that made me think there was any simillar risk with them. That's a really strange story though and I guess I have to believe it happened even if it's hard to believe and even harder to believe someone would admit to allowing that to happen.

[Invictus]

I'm not doubting for a second that there was negligence involved. But the fact is, the mouse still obviously stood a good chance against the blood, didn't it?? :)

[PoiSoNouS]

My first fresh killed was a very sad experience for me...
i killed it myself to give it to my first snake, wich was the only one I got back then...
The saddest thing is that the snake didnt took it.. feeling that i just killed a mouse for nothing made me feel SO BAD :(

[MouseKilla]

Obviously the mouse found a way I just don't understand how. Maybe the snake actually died of natural causes, the keeper didn't notice, dropped the mouse in, left, and then returned to find the mouse chowing on the dead snake then mistakenly attributed the snakes death to the harmless mouse. Sound implausible to you? Yeah, me too. But so does the mouse killing it. I don't know, it all makes no sense. Ok wait, maybe the guy was so stupid he bonked the snake first then dropped in the live mouse. There we go that's what happened. Mystery solved.

[reptilesalonica]

I've been breeding the little stink bags for years now as well, and even though I pcik them up by the tails, sometimes the little hoppers still manage to curl around and bite.
To me, hoppers are the one that are more tame.
If i must be cautius by any mouse, this must be the male of a colony who protecting one of the females that have just drop a litter.
Males are protecting furiously their babies against anyone.
I respect that and on cases like these, i take what i want from the colony with tweezers.
'
Death by supervised live feeding is not very common, however even with supervision, injuries can happen.
Yeap, since there's a prey and a predator interacting in the same scene, always you can smell the danger in the air.
Btw, my Ball is the best snake predator i ever have seen.
Many times when he strikes for the quail, he kill it with his body while his head is ready in an 'S" posture a few cms back, ready for a second strike, if he feels it needed.
He know what he does, takes his precautions :D
~Greg~

[Lisa]

Mice bite hard. the can draw blood too. these little buggers can chew their way out of plastic enclosures when they can get a grip on things. tearing through skin is no problem for them. this is why when i'm handling them i use gloves so i can just reach in and grab away.

[MouseKilla]

I grab them like a handful of potato chips, never had a problem myself and neither have any of my snakes. I don't use tongs or gloves and only use a hook to handle my one crazy snake. I find that you're more likely to be bitten if you are reluctant or allow yourself to be intimidated by an animal. That's my experience anyway, maybe you are just being cautious.

[LdyDrgn]

I have also seen boas and Royals torn up by mice. Granted, they were probably left unattended, but mice CAN kill snakes if the snake isn't in the mood to eat.

Invictus: Rabbits are a lot harder to kill. My ex b/f used to whack them with a hammer, wait for the nerves to stop twitching, then we'd bag and freeze them. He never wanted to twist their necks because he is much stronger than he looks. Growing up on a farm in the middle of nowhere does that to you, LOL. Had he done the twisting thing, we would have a bunch of headless bunnies...hehehe Now I just order from RodentPro.... :D

[MouseKilla]

Should I ever start up a punk rock band I would call it "The Headless Bunnies"

[LdyDrgn]

Could be interesting...LOL

[reptilesalonica]

Or..."The wacking mice nightmare".
Mousekilla would be leading vocals and all lyrics about how to kill mice.
Instead of instruments, mice squeaks in different tones and octaves.
Live appearances of this band only in mice cages :D
~Greg~

[MouseKilla]

Funny you should mention the sounds. We feed live when giving small prey and you get a good squeaks when the snake hits them. The mice and rat pups make distinctly different noises on impact. Either way though I always look over at my cringing wife when we get a loud one, smile and say "I love that sound" It is sort of musical in it's own way don't you think? SQUEEEEAK! SQUEEEEAK! LOL!

[reptilesalonica]

...i never could say that "I love that sound!".
I don't love at all that one alive creature must die, but i respect and understand the pyramid of life and i feel it's something to be done.
When a live mouse is dying by a snake, i remain silent.
~Greg~

[LdyDrgn]

Rabbits are worse, MUCH worse. They don't squeek, they SCREAM!!

[MouseKilla]

So I suppose you don't sing "Singing In The Rain" and bonk to the beat either then? Singing in the rain (WHACK! WHACK!) Just singing in the rain (WHACK! WHACK!)What a glorious feeling (CRUNCH! CRUNCH!) I'm happy again.... I thought we were just joking around here man. I don't really like killing them either. That was a story about me teasing my squeemish wife (which I do enjoy) not about the fun of killing mice or anything else... I'm laughin at the clouds so dark up above, got a song in my heart and I'm ready for love.... Ever see that movie? It's a classic.

[reptilesalonica]

Mousekilla!...WHAT ARE YA SAYIN MAN?!?!...:D :D :D.....
You weirdo!...keep holding my belly... :D
~Greg~

[MouseKilla]

Now just hold on there! I've been called a weirdo before, that's just fine. But I've never even touched your belly, let alone held it. And I'm not going to start either. Well.... ok give me $20, I'll hold it for a bit. But nothing else you sick, sick man.

[reptilesalonica]

Let me hold my own belly...Thank you!
If i want someone to hold my belly that would be...
OH! Delighted2think...who might be... ;)
~Greg~

[MouseKilla]

Well that was...uhmmmm.... indecipherable I guess you could say...? What's goin on here man? You haven't been licking those millipedes have you? I told you that was dangerous! Remember when you ate that toad? You wanna get sick again? Get a hold of yourself man, this attitude will be your doom. Total wrecklessness.

[reptilesalonica]

Probably you wasn't on the General discusion...some days b4 to admire the "Delighted2b" site :D...probably you missed it.

p.s....those cooked millipedes mmm! yammi! :D
~Greg~

[mark129er]

I killed my first mouse last week. used the bag and whack method. Problem was I wanted to be sure so I gave it a second whack. Needless to say overkill, there was i bit of guts all over the bag. Lesson learned: small mice need only a small "whack".

PS No remorse or guilt

[MouseKilla]

I've said this a thousand times before (I guess everyone needs to try the different methods), but the bag method is crude and inneffective. Scrap the bag and get somthing that's hard, easy to grip and maybe a foot long. Hold the rodent by the tail, it will naturally tilt it's head back and give you a good place to aim. Crack it sharply on the back of the head/neck area, usually takes two of them for an adult rat, usually one for mice. The good part about this is that you aren't striking the entire animal, just the part you need to and you can better control the amount of force used.

[djc3674]

well...my last experience pre-killing a jumbo rat really got to me..I felt aweful. Usually it doesnt bother me at all...the snakes gotta eat and usually I feed live mice to my snakes..but my Boa is getting huge and eating very large prey items and I see the risk involved now. Just two weeks ago...I brought home a big jumbo rat just after my boa shed...and he struck at it..but got it on its side...so I took a huge stick that I have in the snake room and jammed its face so it wouldnt bite my snake...well..doing this gave it leverage..the rat kicked out of the snakes coil and bolted. The snake was a bit confused at this point..and didnt bother going after it again....so now i have a stressed snake..and a scared pissed off jumbo rat..which i was not about to pick up again.

So ....I took this big stick..and bashed him in the head...well...he was flopping around like a fish out of water...and spewing blood everywhere. I had to hit it like 3 more times..and it finally died...I gotta tell ya...I have never felt so bad in my life when killing a rodent. It bothered me all day long. The snake didnt eat it..so since it was f/k..i put it in a ziplock bag and froze it....about 4 days later I thawed it for 5 hours..had it warm..and he ate it no problem. Sorry for the graphic detail...but had to tell my story.

[MouseKilla]

Yup, we've all had the gory ones, it's all part of the fun. LOL! You'll know to whack the thing next time right? haha

[djc3674]

yeah..either that or I'm going to switch him to f/t...he took it just fine the last time. Or I will start feeding him rabbits...ive heard they are not as viscious as rats...and the rabbits would only be the size of jumbo rats or a bit bigger...not those huge 10 pounders I see retics eating...lol

[Invictus]

As I just said in a previous post, if you are feeding live rats or rabbits to your snake, you don't deserve to be owning a snake. If it will take F/T, give it F/T. It's apparent that you are feeding live strictly for your own amusement. And if you think rabbits aren't as nasty as rats, there are plenty of boa breeders here who will probably be more than happy to sell you a new one when yours gets killed. Although I hope they would refuse the sale, since you'll probably just end up killing the new one too. Wake the hell up, djc3674.

[marisa]

Rabbits are in fact nasty nasty nasty.

Our cat loves bringing BABY rabbits homes alive...screaming...well let me tell you, those tiny babies have no problems biting right into the cat, or us.

Marisa

[MouseKilla]

LOL! WAKE THE HELL UP! hahaha! Inv, you're always so ambiguous, tell us what you really think. hahaha

[jay76]

I only need to feed fuzzies, but I whack 'em anyways to get my snakes to take prekilled mice now instead of trying to switch over later on. The only bad experience I had was with a pinkie I was thawing for my corn... the water was way too hot, and when he wrapped it up the result was more like a burrito than anything else. Now I just stun them against a wall. Sure I could grab a pencil and do the cervical thing but the wall is handier.

Invictus: I'd say you matched King Diamond more than Peter Steele :)

[Invictus]

LOL... thanks Jay... I think...
:)

[depressor86]

what's more effective to use, a pillowcase or a plastic bag?
i use bags, i find i can swing them better and focus the impact to one spot and just in case theres a split, blood doesnt go everywhere.

also, i dont know about anyone else .. but i have no problem in killing mice. it just doesnt upset me, never really has.

[MouseKilla]

Yarrrrggghhhh! stop it stop it stop it!
LOL! bags and pillow cases are sloppy man, get a whacking stick (see my ad above haha) much quicker and more accurate, haven't obliterated any entire rodents with one, unlike the bag method. If you're worried about the possibility of a blood bath, which I'll give you does happen occaisonally, do it in the basement or over a cardboard box.

[djc3674]

It's apparent that you are feeding live strictly for your own amusement. And if you think rabbits aren't as nasty as rats, there are plenty of boa breeders here who will probably be more than happy to sell you a new one when yours gets killed. Although I hope they would refuse the sale, since you'll probably just end up killing the new one too. Wake the hell up, djc3674.

Whats apparent Invictus is with every post..you become more and more of a self-righteous jerk! Who do you think you are judging me and how I treat my snakes? All of my animals are well cared for and very healthy...so you can shove your comments up your ***. I do not feed my snakes live prey for my own enjoyment for your information.
Just because you have your own method or opionion on how to feed your reptiles..you shouldnt pass judgement because someone prefers another way. You come across very pig-headed and I am actually thinking about just not posting on this site anymore...I dont need to be ridiculed or put down when you dont agree with one of my posts. I dont need to deal with your bullshit (Invictass)

[mk-ultra]

i totally agree with you djc3674 as i do feed live prey ( not by choice but obligation ) but anyway there is no need to act like that on the forum just because someone doesnt do like you . Are his animals healthy yeah well stfu thats it .

[Linds]

Originally posted by depressor86
what's more effective to use, a pillowcase or a plastic bag?


I use both. For mice a pillowcase doesn't really cut it as there is too much resistance because the prey item is too light. For rats (small and up) I use a pillowcase, can't really kill something that large effectively in a plastic bag, the thing will bust open no problems.

[reptilesalonica]

There's no need to leave the forum. I noticed the same behaviour from some members (not reffering to Invictus neither to this thread) those i'm reffering to, they will understand...
They try to change your mind acting as they know everything. Usually those persons asking everything, even the most silly question and because they lack of unacquired perception, when they learn something (i.e. how much cms must drill for air holes?) they locked it inside their fiddling mind and the worse of all, when someone has different oppinion they do their best to tigiment their oppinions. They try to have an audience to support their oppinions. With every "victory" they are happy and laughing on others back...
Well this is a lack of maturity and puniness.
I never liked and do that. I never want from anyone to rigiment his oppinions to me. I tell what i believe and that's all. We are not talking to children each other and we must respect other's oppinions and coign of vantage.
Let's not demonstrate the dogmatic self uppon others.
~Greg~

[milenko_78]

my ball will only eat live, but once one of my mice (my mommy at that!--i named her Butterscotch!) developed a huge tumor or cyst or something on it's neck and it just kept growing and growing until it finally broke open from all her scratching. i was going to whack it , but was scared i wouldn't do it hard enough, so i put her in a tub of water & held the lid down until i couldn't feel her moving anymore (an eternity). tho it was a mercy kill i felt so bad. i know how i'm gonna die now.

[milenko_78]

ps: why do so many people prefer pre-killed? is it because the snake might get bit? mine does quite well on live and could eat a whole cage full!

[TheRedDragon]

Originally posted by milenko_78
ps: why do so many people prefer pre-killed? is it because the snake might get bit? mine does quite well on live and could eat a whole cage full!

Because accidents CAN and DO happen. Even a mere mouse can do some damage to a BP. If any rodent decides it wants to defend itself, it CAN and WILL cause SEVERE damage to the snake no matter what precautions you take.

Go to this website:

http://www.homestead.com/koalaskritters/livefeeding.html

That site has graphic pics of a BP that's been severely injured by a mouse.



And take a look at these pictures also of a Boa Constrictor that has its face and body gnawed by a rat:

http://www.anapsid.org/images/bite2.jpg

http://www.anapsid.org/images/bite3.jpg


Hopefully that will help answer your question.

[jay76]

It's amazing how many people prefer to take chances, isn't it? :(

[Invictus]

Originally posted by djc3674
Whats apparent Invictus is with every post..you become more and more of a self-righteous jerk! Who do you think you are judging me and how I treat my snakes?

Who do I think I am? I'm someone who cares enough about my snakes to not put them in harm's way, that's who I am. I want you to take a good, long look at TheRedDragon's post above, and then give me ONE GOOD REASON to feed your snake live unless it is an absolute last resort. And don't give me any garbage about how feeding live is more natural for the snake. You've captivated it, thus stripping it of a natural life. And if I come across as being self-righteous, it's because seeing pictures of mangled snakes absolutely breaks my heart, and seeing people like you advocate live feeding when you know damn well your snake will take prekilled without an issue really gets under my skin. So forgive me for being passionate about snakes.

All of my animals are well cared for and very healthy...so you can shove your comments up your ***.

I'm sure the ball python in RedDragon's post was healthy at one time too. And all it took was one angry mouse.....

I do not feed my snakes live prey for my own enjoyment for your information.

Then like I said above, enlighten me. Give me a reason not to believe that you're putting a snake in harm's way for no good reason.

Just because you have your own method or opionion on how to feed your reptiles..you shouldnt pass judgement because someone prefers another way.

My method is 100% guaranteed to not kill the snake. Yours is just a matter of time before it does kill the snake.

You come across very pig-headed and I am actually thinking about just not posting on this site anymore...I dont need to be ridiculed or put down when you dont agree with one of my posts. I dont need to deal with your bullshit (Invictass)


ROFLMAO!!!! Invictass? I bet you were up all night thinking of that one. Very witty. Your hero cookie is in the oven.

Yes, I am pig-headed when it comes to people putting their snakes in danger. I love snakes more than you can even begin to imagine, so yes, I get outright nasty when I feel someone is doing something stupid. But like I said, if you can give me one good reason to give a live rat or rabbit to a snake, I'll apologize in full, and retract everything I've ever said about feeding prekilled prey. Sound like a deal?

[reptilesalonica]

Yeap! I can feel your anger bud. It's so painful seen those poore snakes in such condition. Althouth we cannot condemn live feeding in some cases. Many snakes until learn accept f/t mice must feed on live mice, hamsters or gerbils.
To those keepers that want to offer live just for ammusement, they must learn to understand snakes reactions, (btw i would never tried that with rats) they must "read" the snake (each snake is different from another, even in the same spp.), so, they must "read" well every snake to know when it is ready for a strike. Hunger is not the only indication, if a snake is stressed or away from his favourite spot may not strike even if it's hungry.
This is a risk you are taken...with mice the risk is smaller but then, again, a mouse can scratch, bite and draw blood. This is no big deal since the small wounds will cure in some days, but...do you want to do something like that to your snakes?
Maybe you should reconsider that.
~Greg~

[TheRedDragon]

Amen Jesus (Invictus)!!!!!! :D

[hip]

But like I said, if you can give me one good reason to give a live rat or rabbit to a snake, I'll apologize in full, and retract everything I've ever said about feeding prekilled prey. Sound like a deal?


I will pose a question to you Invictus Just say that you aquire a wild caught Suriname in a rescue that will only eat live for the first 6 months in your care and it takes almost one full year to switch that snake to frozen thawed Would this make me unworthy to own this snake? Would this make me a moron? would this be self serving for my amusement? I was just wondering. This is an actual snake that I own away on breeding loan to Chris Marshell he knows what I went through with this boa and I would like to hear his comments on the issue as well. It sometimes does happen that some snakes will not switch does this invite starvation? F/t is the way to go in my opinnion but what do you do if all the effort is for not? Please let me know



Hip

[djc3674]

Invcitus:
First off..that boa in the pic..was not damaged that badly by a live feeding. The boa probably refused food..and its owner probably left the rat in with the snake unattended and the rat got hungry and chewed the crap outta the snake. Anybody that would do that is definately a moron and doesnt deserve to own reptiles.
So you cant compare the two. When I feed my snakes..I stay very close and watch them until the prey is dead. I havent had a problem yet..accept for the way I had to kill the last rat.
And as I said...my boa will take p/k rats...so I will be switching him over.

So Invictus...if something happens to my snakes because I feed live, then you can say "I told ya so" Until then, dont be so damn opinionated. YOU have your way...I have mine.
At some point in time..I will switch my hog over to p/k or f/t as well..but as for my BP...well thats a whole different strory.

My method is 100% guaranteed to not kill the snake. Yours is just a matter of time before it does kill the snake.

As for my baby hog, he feeds on live mice and does very well...there is no way in hell that little mouse is going to kill him..gimme a break...he attacks and kills them and within 20 seconds they are dead. If any of my snakes refused to eat right then and there..you better believe I am taking the prey item out of there enclosure.

You've captivated it, thus stripping it of a natural life

I did not strip my snakes of a natural life you idiot. They were born in captivity..and if I did not own them...then someone else would and either way..they would be in an enclosure.

ROFLMAO!!!! Invictass? I bet you were up all night thinking of that one. Very witty. Your hero cookie is in the oven.

Actually..it came to me instantly....I call em as I see em. Oh and I hope its a chocolate chip cookie!

Yes, I am pig-headed when it comes to people putting their snakes in danger. I love snakes more than you can even begin to imagine, so yes, I get outright nasty when I feel someone is doing something stupid. But like I said, if you can give me one good reason to give a live rat or rabbit to a snake, I'll apologize in full, and retract everything I've ever said about feeding prekilled prey. Sound like a deal?

Your pig-headed when anybody does something different than you. I've read some of your posts..and you friggin THINK you know-it-all. I dont need to make any deals and I dont need to supply you with reasons....I know you think your Steve Irwin ...but give it a rest!!!

[Invictus]

Fine, I'm pig-headed. Whatever. At least I don't resort to petty name-calling like "Invictass". That was just sad, dude. And I don't think I know it all. If I did, I wouldn't ask questions. But there are some things that I do know, and I do debate strongly. If you can't handle that, why don't you just go cry to your mommy, or see if you can come up with another witty name for me. And by the way, learn the difference between "your" and "you're".

I dont need to make any deals and I dont need to supply you with reasons

Don't need to, or can't? I'd say it's the latter. You can't come up with one good reason to feed live, and you know you can't. And by the way, if you think for one second that supervision somehow makes it safer for your snake, just wait until the first time a rat or rabbit REALLY flips out. They will have your snake's eyes gouged out before you even know that movement occurred. Supervision just means you get to WATCH your snake get injured. If you think that after a rat attacks you can do anything about it, you are sadly fooling yourself.

Hip - As I said in my post, if you review, I advocate feeding live only as a last resort. If it's the difference between starvation and live feeding, obviously a live feeding must be done. I have a great deal of sympathy for the W/C specimens that just will not take prekilled right away. However, I have a 4 year old Kenyan that the owner fed live to all the snake's life. FIRST time I gave her a fresh kill (hence this thread to begin with!) she took it like a champ. But before we could convert her, she had to take a couple of live feedings. But again, it was a last resort.

[djc3674]

If you can't handle that, why don't you just go cry to your mommy, or see if you can come up with another witty name for me. And by the way, learn the difference between "your" and "you're".

I can handle it just fine...what I do not like is the comments you made originally just because you dont agree. The whole topic of this post what a "fresh kill experience" I gave my story..and you had rude things to say.
btw...im at work with a million different things to do..so I am typing very quickly..so if I misspell something or do not use the correct punctuation...forgive me Invctus please...I know you think your perfect and never make mistakes..but some of us do. and the invictass comment wasnt to be petty...just that I think your an ***.

Just one reason..to feed live..is to get a neonate to begin feeding. The breeder I got my hog island boa from..couldnt get these snakes to eat..he tried for a month on p/k or f/t....I had the snake for 3 days...gave him a live fuzzy..and he ate immediatley.

Another is that its more nutritious. The f/t rat that I feed my boa did not hold him over past a week and he was already acting like he is hungry and wants to eat again...and the rat was 2 lbs. This may not have anything to do with it being frozen but it just seemed that was the case.

BTW..I never said that there wasnt danger in feeding live prey items...I just prefer not to have huge frozen rats in my freezer lying next to the chicken nuggets.
The small mice are not going to kill my snake..why cant you see that. They dont even stand a chance...he strikes them in the face everytime and its over quick. Almost each time they feed..I hold the prey by its tail..and let the snake grab them by the face.

For some reason..you associate live feeding ..with not caring about the snakes..and thats totally untrue. I love my snakes..and would never want to see them get hurt or killed...no matter what you may say about me.

[Invictus]

Originally posted by djc3674
Just one reason..to feed live..is to get a neonate to begin feeding. The breeder I got my hog island boa from..couldnt get these snakes to eat..he tried for a month on p/k or f/t....I had the snake for 3 days...gave him a live fuzzy..and he ate immediatley.


Ok now you're not reading what I typed either. I didn't say anything about live pinkies or fuzzies. Hell, I'm a strong advocate of live pinkies and fuzzies. If you look back to my original post, I said that anyone who feeds live RATS or RABBITS doesn't deserve to be owning a snake. Even adult mice can be extremely fast, extremely foul-tempered, and extremely nasty when they are about to be eaten, and thus should always be prekilled unless your snake leaves you no choice.

Another is that its more nutritious. The f/t rat that I feed my boa did not hold him over past a week and he was already acting like he is hungry and wants to eat again...and the rat was 2 lbs. This may not have anything to do with it being frozen but it just seemed that was the case.

Ever heard of fresh killed? It's the same as your snake killing it, except that your snake doesn't end up being the one who gets killed. Just the rat gets that privilege.

BTW..I never said that there wasnt danger in feeding live prey items...I just prefer not to have huge frozen rats in my freezer lying next to the chicken nuggets.

And this is evidently more important to you than the safety of your snake. Buy a mini-freezer exclusively for frozen prey. They're not that expensive. You can even get used ones for free if you pick up a bargain finder, or read the classifieds in the newspaper. Hell, try EBay. Keep them on a separate rack in the freezer. Look at all the options available to you! You still haven't justified why giving a live rat or rabbit is a good way to go about feeding.

This is the main reason why it is so important to get the snakes feeding on prekilled prey when they are young. It's so you don't have to try and convert them when they are older and need to be fed a large prey item.

So before you misquote me again, let me recap:

1) Feeding live is a LAST resort, not a FIRST one.
2) Live pinkies and fuzzies have about as much chance of hurting a snake as you have of being struck by lightning on a clear day. Hoppers and above, however, have a VERY good chance of harming your snake.
3) I don't think I know everything, but this is an issue I am very passionate about.
4) I did not say you were a moron, I said wake the hell up. I also did not call you stupid, I said you were doing something stupid. I'm not trying to attack you here. I'm attacking your point of view on this matter which, thus far, has been very poorly justified on your behalf.

So if you disagree, fine. You disagree. At least back it up. So far all you've done is say "Well that's the way I like to do it." You don't even have the slightest clue what it is that you are disagreeing with, nor why you disagree. You're just digging in your heels because that's the way you've always done it, and no snakes have died yet, so it must be right. (Oh, except of course for the poor chicken nuggets. I guess that's a reason, albeit a pretty inane one.)

You know, one day, you and I will probably sit down for a beer, and look back on this and laugh. I'm not trying to make enemies with you. I'm trying to debate a point. I honestly hope that you're not taking this personally, though it appears that you are.

[marisa]

Guys I think the problem here is obvious. When talking about people who feed live you are both talking about different things. There are two types of reasons to feed live.

1. Because you don't know any better, the persons snake will eat F/T but the owner still feeds live.

2. WC or tough specimens eating live. There are MANY difficult speices out there that MUST take live for at least a small while if not a very long time.

These are two VERY different situations. A person in situation one might be an idiot, but in the second situation, the owner is doing what is right and the only option.

marisa

[MouseKilla]

Invictus,

Again, great thread man, 8 pages of bitter debate is something to be proud of. As a bonus I must reluctantly admit that you may yet change my mind on this. As I'm sure you remember we debated the potential danger of mice (not rats or larger, we agreed those were dangerous). I have been in the practice of feeding higher numbers of relatively small live prey for a few years now, believing that the hunting experience was better for the animal. I never imagined (and still have a hard time believing) that a mouse was capable of injuring a snake large enough to eat it. I perceived the risk of this to be so small that it was out weighed by the benefits of letting the animal hunt. Now I can hear you screaming at the monitor all the way out here in Ontario: "WHAT GODDAM BENEFITS??" Well I guess the best way I can try to explain it is that I felt it would improve the animal's quality of life. It's something you can't measure but I know when I do anything for my snakes like adding cage furniture, I'm thinking about whether it will make them "happier". I'm not saying that it's definitely worth the risk to feed live, in fact all these horror stories are honestly giving me second thoughts. I guess what I'm saying is that it isn't something that's for my benefit, it's out of an honest effort to do what is best for the animal.

[Invictus]

Now I can hear you screaming at the monitor all the way out here in Ontario: "WHAT GODDAM BENEFITS??"

LOL... I think I heard the same thing from Linds and Marisa when I was talking about the benefits of housing corn snakes together! :D

Thanks for the comments, man.