Sand Substrate!

[Zoe]

Okay, I know the opinion on sand as substrate is pretty universally negative, but hear me out:

I cover the bottom of the tank in large roundish (flattish) rocks. I will the cracks with fine sand, and feed the leos out of a food dish. This would be for adult leos who would have access to a dish of calcium all the time.

What do you think? Still to risky?

Zoe

[paul_le_snake]

i usually raise baby beardies and leos on paper until 3-4 months. after that they go on sand, never had a problem from around 1000 hatchlings
cheers
paul

[Rebecca]

What if they for some reason eat one of the rocks??

[Zoe]

Rebecca - the rocks would be pretty big... like 5" diameter.

Zoe

[Sean_.E.]

Zoe, I do the same thing for my beardies. Most of the rocks are bigger than 5" in diameter though. I find that it works perfectly. It looks nice and natural, it's easy to clean and it minimizes the risk of impaction. I make sure the beardies either at out of the dish or on the surface of the rock. I reccomend larger rocks so you dont have to fill as much cracks which means less sand!

Hope this helps!
Sean

[Jeff_Favelle]

The part that I don't understand is the Leo husbandry has been worked out 10 frickin' years ago, so why are we even trying to mess with it? You're not going to discover something new with it. Progression is pretty much all done. Why bang your head against a wall? It doesn't make sense. Its all been done for you and all you have to do is follow a recipe. Easy as pie. Why make it harder for yourself?

[Sean Day]

In my experience if you use a good gutload and proper supplements you should not have a problem.

[Alicewave]

Sounds fine too me. If you want to get really permanent you could try grout instead of sand but I don't see a problem with it. That's the key really, feeding out of a dish and adequate supplementation, provided the leo is an adult. Take pictures when you are done!

[Sean_.E.]

Mr. Favelle,

I am confused by your post! Could you possibly clarify it for me? What exactly are you talking about?

I don't mean for this to offend you I am just confused by you post!

Sean :)

[Alicewave]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
The part that I don't understand is the Leo husbandry has been worked out 10 frickin' years ago, so why are we even trying to mess with it? You're not going to discover something new with it. Progression is pretty much all done. Why bang your head against a wall? It doesn't make sense. Its all been done for you and all you have to do is follow a recipe. Easy as pie. Why make it harder for yourself?

There's always going to be advances in husbandry methods. Part of the problem with impaction are the products on the market. Many of the calci-sands encourage sand ingestion and actually make the impaction risk greater for Leos of all sizes. There is nothing wrong with trying to innovate new substrate methods to maximize aesthetics while minimizing risks. Just because someone decided 10 years ago that there is one right way, doesn't mean there isn't a better way now. For years everyone thought margerine was healthy, now they find out it causes cancer. Research uncovers new thinsg. Calcisands were once thought to be safe, even beneficial. It has since (more recently than 10 years) been argued that calcisands cause more problems than they solve. You have to stay up to date on the research if you want what's best for your animals. That goes for all species. There is no recipe. Everyone does it differently. Part of what's nice about the forum is to find out what works and what doesn't. As well as to clarify myths that many products put forth.

[Dragon_Slave]

Hey Alicewave, I remember you! I'm Angel from the GeckoExpert forums. Yeah, HI! Lol.

[paul_le_snake]

like the old saying goes........
if it aint broke, why fix it??????????????????
cheers
paul

[KelliH]

Zoe-

IMO the substrate/setup sounds just fine to me. Yes, they may at some point be able to ingest a little bit of sand but this is not a problem if you have healthy, properly cared for animals, trust me. Most leopard geckos I have heard about that had impaction problems were not healthy to begin with, and they were eating the sand to make up for either 1.)not being fed enough or 2.)something lacking in their diet.

[spyderman]

It doesn't matter what you do, some-one will always have arguments for & against it. In the wild, no animal has a choice what they slither/walk on. As long as it's sterile, I see no problem with the animals natural substrate. I have rocks & sand in my Bull snakes Viv'. That works fine, But, I'm sure someone will have something to say about that.

[peregrinefalcon]

I tried the exact same thing and my leo got impacted within 3-4 days. And Kelli I very much disagree with you, my leo was supplemented and fed very well and she still got impacted on it. Do what you want Zoe but be warned! :D I prefer to keep my leo on just slate and rocks, and she is always climbing around very happy.
Good luck!
Adam

[eyespy]

My friend David the bowel resection specialist says sand is responsible for sending his children to college and buying his beach house.

It's one of the biggest old wives' tales in herping that "proper supplementing" will prevent sand-eating. True cases of pica where animals eat sand to right a nutritional deficiency are very rare. Most animals become impacted from normal daily tongue-flicking and/or eating and have totally normal serum levels of minerals and electrolytes.

I don't work in the vet clinic anymore but am still offered between 5 and 20 impacted animals every week for my rescue. Sand impactions happen frequently and most people who say they never had a problem with sand are totally shocked when we do an epigastric lavage and they see how much stuff has built up in the digestive tract of an animal they think is perfectly fine.

I have not yet seen an animal kept on sand that didn't have an unacceptable amount in its system and most animals kept on sand live a significantly shortened life because all the sand in their guts interferes with proper food absorption, so they basically starve to death.

[KelliH]

Hmm okay... I have been keeping and breeding leopard geckos for more than 10 years now and I would say that for more than half of that time I kept my breeding adults on washed childrens 's playsand and I never once had an impaction problem. And I have kept hundreds of leopard geckos! My husband has been a zookeeper in the herp at our city zoo for over 15 years and they use sand in tons of the exibits there. What about some of the other big US breeders such as Albey, Rich Z @Serpenco, Golden Gecko etc. etc. I believe all of them use sand as a substrate with no problems. I mean do you think we would use it if it were bad for our geckos?! I keep knobtail geckos and let me tell you, they require a sand substrate in captivity! You put one of them on paper towel, newspaper or slate? they are not going to survive longterm. ANyway, I have my opinion about sand, other opinions differ, that's what I love about these forums, we can all express our opinions! I think people should take in information from many sources such as books, other keepers, zoos, websites like this and then decide after a trial and error period, what works best for them and their herps.

[Siretsap]

I kept all my leopard geckos on sand for about 1 year. 2 of them started having impaction problems while the others were perfectly healthy. Now, they are on news paper since it's the only thing they have more trouble eating. I tried coconut mulch but they stil ate some, tried vermiculite as a laying substrat and the females ate some, tried sphagnum mos.... same thing.
Earth is the only thing I now use for breeding substrat since they don't seem to like the texture so they lay the eggs and run out of there.

[eyespy]

It's those big US breeders who use sand that keep Penn's bowel surgery specialty practice in business! Almost 85% of all the surgeries we've done are sand impaction cases.

[Zoe]

Okay, that all makes sense. But there'd be very little sand in this... just between the cracks of the rocks. Still a bad idea?

As for all those "why bother improving if its working already" comments, well it isn't working. Obviously it isnt because there are many impaction cases, and even if they are unlikely (which i dont believe they are) i dont want to even risk hurting my leos at all. I don't think there is much wrong with trying to find the best way, if I did everything caresheets told me to do, I'd be keeping my pythons in a tank on cedar bedding with a hot rock for heat and 90% humidity. Just because its been proven that the animals can survive in such conditions, why is it wrong to try and find the best method, Jeff and Paul?

Zoe

[KelliH]

Eyespy-

So you are saying that the big leopard gecko breeders are having all of these impaction problems in their leopard geckos and bringing their animals to "Penn" to have surgery done? Please, we spend lots and lots of money, time and energy on our leopard geckos, not to mention the love we have for the animals we keep and reproduce, why would we use a substrate that causes them to become impacted and die or have to have expensive surgery? Makes no sense.

[eyespy]

Chronic impactions take an average of 3 years to be detected, they aren't as easy to see as an acute blockage. So most breeders are never aware their animals have ongoing problems and it's very tough to convince them to switch to a safer substrate. We've been working on this issue since 1987 and it's very slow getting folks to change their ways but little by little we're making progress.

We do epigastric lavage on every animal brought in for evaluation and owners seeing dozens of grams of sand flushed out is the way we convert most folks. But most breeders refuse to believe in chronic impactions because it's very rare for them to keep animals long enough for problems to show up, and so the owners get blamed for what happens down the road. Most leopard geckos are 6 to 8 years old before chronic sand impaction kills them. Basically sand has cut their lifespan down to 1/3 of what they should have achieved.

[KelliH]

Eyespy-

Thanks for the info, that is very interesting. I personally have not used sand for several years now. Because of the amount of animals I have paper towel is much easier for me to keep claen, plus the amount of dust in the air when using sand was pretty significant. You are correct when you say that most breeders do not keep animals long term, mostly because of the ever changing leopard gecko market and the sad fact that what's hot and highly coveted one year may not be a year or two later.

I appreciate you explaining it to me in a calm, collected manner and I am definitely going to rethink my position on the "sand debate". Thanks Again-
Kelli Hammack
Herpetological Institute for Scientific Study

[Rich]

Hello,
I lost my first gecko due to an impaction. It was a rather bizarre senario. I started using playground sand because I was informed that it was a good substrate.A few months later, I began looking info up online (to make sure that I was doing everything correctly)and found that it wasn't as safe as I had previously been told.
I immediatley switched to repti carpet. 11 months after I had made the change, my gecko suddenly died over night. To say the least, I was a bit devastated.
I brought the leo to my cousin who performed a neocropsy and was informed that it was a sand impaction that had caused the leo's death. I was shocked! This was 11 months AFTER I had removed the leo from the sand.
I have stopped using sand all together and haven't lost a gecko in over 10 years now. I think that says alot for the sand issue!

[Wuntu Menny]

Sand , sand , sand... Its all I ever use. Sand with certain properties, mind you, but still sand.

Yes, they ingest it, I see it all the time in their droppings. It passes right through them. I carefully chose a type of sand that is washed and graded, without irregular stones and pebbles and it does not clump with moisture.

I started using it years ago before the whole sand debate began to rage. I've never had a problem, so I won't change my setup. I've seen and heard enough horror stories involving paper towel, carpet, and assorted commercial substrates that I see no benefit to any of them over sand.

WM

[choriona]

wuntu- where do you get your sand?

[Zoe]

Okay I found some sand today... it is very fine, no dust, and doesnt clump when wet. I put it in the tank and put a whole bunch of rocks / slate rocks on top, as well as the plants/cacti, food and water dishes... I think they will be okay! But if I notice amounts of sand in the feces I will take out all that bloody sand :)

[Wuntu Menny]

Choriona, I use Target brand playsand from Home Despot. Sometimes I'll combine it with Burnco product, but that stuff has to be screened to remove the stones and larger material.

I discovered it's properties when I tried it as nesting medium for chameleons. It doesn't work worth a s**t because it won't hold water. The tunnels collapse and the water all drains to the bottom of the bucket.

I actually use five different kinds of sand for different applications. Not all sand is created equal.

WM

[choriona]

yeah, thats what my leos are on too (the target), but there are some larger bits in the sand. I was using it in my trunk for the winter. lol. maybe some got mixed?!

[Wuntu Menny]

Larger bits!? Where?

Are you using the stuff in the paper or plastic bag? I'm referring to the one in plastic and I've never found any irregular contents.

[choriona]

The paper...which is why it ripped in my car...and how possible mixing may of occured. Although, after reading this thread, i think i may take them off sand. Not until next cleaning though, cause I just did one! BUTTTTT I do like the way the sand looks.

[Rich]

Hello,
What I find amazing is how so many people keep saying that since THEY haven't had a problem with sand, they are going to keep using it. They also say that if they DO end up with a problem, then they will change! What is wrong with that type of thinking?!? You might as well say"when my reptile dies, I will then stop using the sand but until then, the hell with it". That really says alot for the keeper.
Its very true that many geckos will survive their entire life on sand without any problems. But it is equally true that there are many geckos that will become impacted. I just don't understand why someone that claims to love their reptiles would be willing to take a chance like that. It seems that more people are worried about asthetically pleasing enclosures than they are the leos health!
What I also find amusing is all the owners that claim it is "natural" for the leo. Leos don't live on sand.They are more prone to mountainous regions and grassy patches. Sand is part of the habitat, but not even close to being a major factor.
These enclosures that have a sand bottom are directly subdueing the leo into contact with an otherwise not so common factor. It just drives me crazy to think that it all started with one writer claiming that sand was what leos lived on. Now everyone thinks that is true and that it is safe.
Thank god other people have begun writing about other reptiles and updating their info or we would all still think that iguanas need animal protein to survive! (we now know that though they would OCCASIONALLY digest and insect, it is dangerous and has fatal consequences if fed on a regular basis)
That directly ties into the sand controversey because it is the exact same idea! Until the info is updated, too many people will continue to use sand and many more leos will die!
Good luck to those who use sand. I wish your leos the best!

[Alicewave]

Well said Rich.

Wuntu: Just because they pass it does not mean it isn't building up in their system. It's obvious they are ingesting it. I would stop using it before it's too late.

Zoe: Maybe its too permanent but you could use grout in between the rocks instead of sand? Just a thought.

[Rich]

Here is one of my enclosures that I use for my leos. Notice that it has what appears to be sand as a substrate but is nothing more than a tan fabric. (edges are wrapped under the supports so that they can't eat them) I have also been watching to see if their toes were getting stuck but their nails have had no problems.

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/bc/iguanairs/vwp?.dir=/Leopard+Gecko+Enclosure&.src=ph&.dnm=No+sand+enclosure+pic.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/bc/iguanairs/lst%3f%26.dir=/Leopard%2bGecko%2bEnclosure%26.src=ph%26.view=t

[Rich]

Hello ,
I have added the coding to the url and yet the image isn't being added as you can see from the post above. I have a yahoo folder that I place the images in. Could this be the problem even though the folder has public access?
I used the img button and placed the link within. I then saved the changes and i keep getting the "X". I then tried to add the source coding....<imgsrc="http://www.linkhere.com... and I added the "img at the end. Is this correct?

[DragnDrop]

Yahoo doesn't allow direct linking to images, you'll have to supply the URL for the picture(s) as a link, not image tag.

[eyespy]

Playsands from places like Home Depot, Lowes, ToysRUs, etc. are the most commonly found sands in a leo's digestive tract. The finer the sand, the more easily it tongue-flicks up. It also adheres to the wet walls of the digestive tract more easily.

The best test of impaction risk is not how easily the sand clumps. A clump, or acute impaction, is a fairly small risk at less than 5% of all deaths from impactions. Most impactions are more like a "sand stocking" where sand coats the digestive tract and interferes with absorption of food and sometimes even bloodflow if the accumulation is severe. Usually this problem isn't picked up until the animal is wasting away, it's a highly underdiagnosed condition because the sand layer is usually too fine to see on xrays so you need to do invasive procedures to determine if there is a sand buildup.

Wet your hand and bury it in the sand. If sand clings to the moistened skin and doesn't easily shake off, the same "sand stocking" is going to accumulate inside your herp's gut. Finer sands are more likely to cause death than medium-grained ones but even those are risky.

Clumps are more likely to cause a sudden death, but it's the day-to-day buildup of a sand layer in the gut that kills the vast majority of impacted herps.

[Rich]

Hello,
Creating an enclosure that appears "natural" can be established without the use of sand. The plants/cacti in the pic are real. The substrate is actually a soft,tightly woven fabric. There are no frayed edges as all the sides are 6 inches UNDER the visible cloth. The leos do not have any problems with their nails getting stuck either.

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/2833no_sand.jpg

[Wuntu Menny]

Apparently, my choice of substrate is unnatural. Oddly enough, my geckos love to dig. That strikes me as a natural enough behaviour, why inhibit it? Pretty tough diggin' in astroturf!

Notice that it has what appears to be sand as a substrate but is nothing more than a tan fabric. (edges are wrapped under the supports so that they can't eat them)
If this is an enclosure that is intended to appear natural, why are you trying to make it look like sand? According to your testimony, that would be unnatural.

What I also find amusing is all the owners that claim it is "natural" for the leo. Leos don't live on sand.They are more prone to mountainous regions and grassy patches. Sand is part of the habitat, but not even close to being a major factor.
I wonder what sort of material is in between the grassy patches. Soil, gravel, sand... OH MY GOD! Those could cause an impaction! Perhaps our geckos' wild relatives prefer to be dishfed on the mountain slopes of Afghanistan.

Playsands from places like Home Depot, Lowes, ToysRUs, etc. are the most commonly found sands in a leo's digestive tract. The finer the sand, the more easily it tongue-flicks up. It also adheres to the wet walls of the digestive tract more easily.
I obviously didn't put enough emphasis on the HYDROPHOBIC qualities of my sand of choice. It is coarse grade material that rarely adheres to anything wet or dry. I selected it for this reason.

It just drives me crazy to think that it all started with one writer claiming that sand was what leos lived on. Now everyone thinks that is true and that it is safe.
Strange, now a couple of people are saying its not and look at the panic that's ensued. After 17 years as a herp keeper, I've seen enough revisions in husbandry techniques to know that the flavor of the month ain't necessarily accurate. Thanks, but I'll wait a bit and see if any valid, corroborative evidence turns up.

As I already stated, I've come across enough bad press involving every alternative substrate imaginable to consider switching. As far as I can tell, the only safe material is no material. Type until your fingers fall off, but I remain firmly unconvinced.

Good luck to those who use sand. I wish your leos the best!
Thanks! And I'll pass along your good wishes.

WM

[Rich]

Hello,
Perhaps you are unaware of the use of parenthesis. Notice they are around the "natural" wording. That is called sarcasm.
If you are supplying your geckos with a moist hide, then the digging issue isn't a problem.
You seem to think that everyone wants to sway you from your beliefs. That isn't the case. At least not with me. I am just pointing out what my beliefs and experiences are.
Another note from you seems to display that you have selective hearing. I never said that there wasnt ANY sand in their natural environment. I did say though that it shouldn't compromise the entire bottom of an enclosure like most gecko owners do. That ISN"T natural.
I too like the look of sand. Hence why the enclosure depicted has a "sand" look to it. It is attractive.
Before you attempt to pick apart a post, you may want to read it several times so that you understand what the author has written. Seperating the parts that suit your arguement doesn't make you look intelligent. It makes you look ignorant.
My post clearly states that sand does compromise a portion of their landscape. It doesn't occupy the majority of it.

[choriona]

For my "sand" inclosure, the whole bottom is sand. This is where they go to the toilet (in the section marked as thier toilet.) Then they have rocks and driftwood and hides and a food dish and......all in between the sand. They even have a toy car. I have actually created levels in my tank that they climb to and can get away from the sand. Is this more like their natural environment?

[Alicewave]

As a safety concious herper, it doesn't matter to me what their natural habitat it. The life span of Leos is much sorter in the wild because they can't regulate where they live. If I can have my Leos live 25 years instead of 15 by removing sand that has NO benefit for them, I'm gonna do it, natural or not.

[Rich]

Hello,
I like your response Alice!

[RaVeNo888o]

on the origional topic of filling the cracks between the rocks. Isnt there something else that is fine enough to fit and look nice, that doesnt pose an impaction problem?
I plan on keeping my crested on paper towel, but what are some safe, easy to clean things that are a little more natural. For my cal king, i use repti bark, but it looks like it would be hard for the little crested to walk on.