Confused

[drewlowe]

some of you know i lost one of my leos 3 weeks back to what i thought was roundworms. Now i don't know what to think of it. I have another sick leo on my hands, out of nowhere her weight completely droped, her tail has lost over half of what it was in 2 weeks. I took her to the vet today and their going to keep her overnight. Tomorrow the vet will be doing a full exam and running tests on her. On of the test will be a "crypto" test. Which if that test comes back positive for crypto i will have to put down my whole leopard gecko colony and possibly the rest of my collection. My question is, i know someone stated thier was a person that was able to help a leo with some medication. I would like to know what that medication was and what kind of results that person had. If anyone can help i would appricate it very much. And any other info or suggestions would help. i would like to be prepaired incase it comes back positive. I'm thinking of the worst and praying for the best.

thanks for listening.

Jamie

[Neo]

i think alicewave said in an earlier thread that someone used the human treatment of crypto and it suppressed the crypto pretty well but didnt eliminate it

[Alicewave]

Yup, let me know if it comes back positive for crypto and I'll put you in contact with the fellow who has the meds for it.

[drewlowe]

yesturday i went to pick phoenix up and talked with the vet. It's down to 2 possibilities. It's either crypto or coccidia (sp). I never thought i would say this but i'm praying for it to be coccidia. If it's coccidia then it can be treated. But if it's cryto then i have 2 choices either put them all down or decide to keep them and be very careful that i don't catch crypto, and that i can never add a new herp to my collection and i have to stop all breeding. If i do decied to keep them once they all pass away i have to throw everything that came in contact with them away.( cages furnishings, and any tools or misc. items.)

This is completly devistating i cant belive it's happining to me. the vet and i went over all husbandry issues and he belives it possible could have come from me giving them tap water. I stopped giving them tap water around 8 months ago but he said "if" it was crypto it could take a long time for it to finally start showing.

He sent a sample away to the lab i should find out results wend. or thursday. And if these samples come back negative then he has suggested that i make a sacrifice in my collection. For the good of the rest of the collection. I'm so upset and confused, i don't know what to think of all this.

What would any of you do if you were put in this situation????

[Siretsap]

The 2 best medications I know of for your leos is panacur and flagil. Treat them with flagil to start since it will do more good than panacur for what your leos have. This is a powerful medecine. It comes in capsules so you have to be careful. What you can do is crush one capsul into powder and dilute it in 1 litre of water. Give that water to all your geckos. I am doing it right now for mine. You repeat it everyday (the medication looses it's benefic actions after a day in water) so you have to crush a capsule again everyday and dilute it in 1 litre water and give that water to your reptiles. Do this for 10 days straight, wait 10 days, do it again for 10 days, repeat 2 to 3 times and go have a leo checked again after to see if it's gone or not.
Flagil can be bought at a vet or even prescribed to you by a doctor (they are the exact same thing). Just make sure the dozage of the doctor's is the same as the vet's.

[KelliH]

Panacur and flagyl aren't going to do a bit of good for the gecko if the have coccidia or cryptosporidia. Drewlowe- ask your vet if any coccidia spores were found in the fecal float? If so then your geckos have coccidia, no question. However, even if your vet DID see coccidia spores in the fecal float they could still have crypto. My suggestion would be to have a full necropsy done, including histopathology, on the sickest of your animals. The vet is right, the sacrifuce of one will tell you a lot, like what exactly you are dealing with that is making your geckos sick. Feel free to email me privately with any questions kelli@hisss.net

Good Luck.

[drewlowe]

sirestap they have been taking panacur 3 different times because 6 or 7 months ago they were diagnosed with "roundworms". panacur has done nothing for them. Thats why i went out and found a new vet again. This one came highly recommend from the herp society and several other people. He told me there was no way that it could be roundworms because it hasn't went away. that it had to be something with a direct life cycle. which he did a full exam on her and flushed her stomach to send to a lab. I won't give them any more meds until i find out what they have. They already been given so much panacur and baytril it's unbeliveble. I feel so bad and helpless right now. Theres nothing i can do for them but sit and wait. He also said at the rate that phoenix is losing weight she has probly only 3 or 4 more weeks till she passes away. and to think 2 weeks ago she was perfectly healthy (or so it seemed).

Please everyone be careful when giving tap water to your reptiles or this may happen to you. I don't want anyone to go through the stress that my animals and myself is going through.

[Siretsap]

I only mentioned panacur, the medication I suggested was flagil.

[KelliH]

Sirestap-

Flagyl would not be effective in treating coccidia. I believe vets are now prescribing albon for that particular parasite. Drewlove, let us know how things turn out!

[eyespy]

Some of the vets on the "meds management" side of the clinic had fairly good luck using a combo of Albon, smz/tmp and azithromycin to reduce the levels of crypto to nearly undetectable amounts that allowed the animals to live symptom-free, but the animals affected are still considered to be livelong carriers and need strict quarantining. We've also had good luck with silver nitrate filtration of water to get rid of crypto spores. Brita pitchers use silver nitrate, and of course boiling the water can further minimize the risk of crypto.

You may not need to put down your collection of animals even if your worst fears are confirmed, but you'd have to make sure your animals never came in contact with others for the rest of their lives. I've seen hundreds of animals make full recoveries. Good luck and let us know how you make out.

[Alicewave]

The name of the medication to treat Crypto is Alinia. It's very new and is intended to treat the human form of crypto. It has only become available in the US by prescription in February '03. John who lives in Canada was able to obtain some through his vet. They have been experimenting with different levels of the edication and have had some success. His Leo bounced back in terms of health, started eating again once the side effects of the meds wore off. She was almost completely back to normal. WHen she had another crypto test, it was still there but in much smaller levels. So he's doing another round of medication to see if he can get rid of it completely. This is a real breakthrough in crypto treatment because previously death was the only prognosis. I'll keep you guys posted unless John posts himself which he sometimes does.

http://www.alinia.net/

[KelliH]

Alicewave-

That is extremely encouraging to hear. Yes, please do keep us posted on this, it could be a significant breakthrough in the treatment for a horrible parasite.

[drewlowe]

Alicewave THANK YOU so much the results should be in wend. thurs. or friday. i will pm you about how to get ahold of that guy or i will give you my info if you would be kind enough to give it to him. I'm still hoping the test comes back positive for coccidia though. But i'm preparing for the worst. and i thank everyone for thier post on this subject.

[The_Omen]

Another human medicine that has shown good results in the fight against crypto in reptiles, is Humatin.
In humans it is used for treating crypto in patients with AIDS.

[drewlowe]

ok 1st set of test results are in, but very strange. Phoenix stool sample came back negative for anything. I also took a stool sample from the colony in and it came up positive for coccida. She was just recently given panacur do you think that could have altered the sample (cause it was greyish). all my leos will be treated but i'm waiting for the vet to call back to see if he wants me to weigh them ( i have a dig. scale) or if he wants me to bring in all 7 to be examined. Plus i have to get stool samples from my beardies and cornsnakes to see if it somehow passed to them. I hope not. I'm just glad it's curable!!!!!!!!!!!

The crypto test could still come back positive. I'm keeping my fingers crossed it doesn't. Thanks again everybody. i will keep you updated when i find out the results from the crypto test.

[Samba]

Jaime - I am so sorry to hear that your geckos are sick! It seems like you've dealt with one thing after another with your leos... I really hope none of them have crypto. Here are some of the things you can do to try and save your collection:

1.) Get all the geckos fecals and examined by your vet.

2.) Separate all your geckos into their own enclosures. I know this can be costly, but you want to be able to monitor each gecko's progress or deterioration carefully. Small rubbermaids will suffice, and daily cage-cleaning will probably be needed for the sicker ones.

3.) Keep a journel of your geckos' eating and behavioral habits. Write down how often they eat, how much and what they eat. Note when they appear active or lethargic. You can also keep track of the meds administered, (don't forget dosage info.)

4.) Don't give up hope. I know you are truely dedicated to your animals and will do what is right by them. Good Luck with them and please keep us updated.

[drewlowe]

yep samba it does, but i belive if the other vets would have ran better test or what not this could of all been avoided. The vet belives my geckos have all had this for quite awhile now, and that the other vets just misdiagnoised my leos with roundworms. Which upsets me cause if that was the case than loki could have been saved if she was given the right meds. This has all been so nerve wrecking.

I spoke with the vets office again today and they want me to bring everything in. Yea!!! this is going to be so much fun. So tonight or tomorrow me and my boyfriend have to go out and purchase some carriers for my beardies and 2 pillow cases for my snakes. Thank god the leos already have one. They all have a vet visit wendsday night. i just hope this hasn't spread. my beardies and snakes don't appear sick in anyway, but i would rather still have them checked out.

[Samba]

Good Job, Jaime. Let us know how their appointments go. Again, I'm really sorry about your leos... I hope you find out what is making them sick. In the meantime, Follow the suggestions above and have hope. Looking forward to an update soon!

[Repti]

Keep up the good job.
Keep us posted on the updates

Repti

[Alicewave]

So sorry to hear you are going through this. Glad you have found a vet willing to work with you on it. I want to add something to Samba's list, wash you hands really well every time you move from one gecko to another. I know you probably know this but this is very commonly overlooked and could easily save the rest of your collection. If you get a positive on crypto you going to have to start cleaning everything, hands included with ammonia, unless you want to invest in some surgical gloves. Ammonia is the only thing that really kills crypto but can be harmful to their little respiratory systems so you will have to make sure to rinse everything and air it out really well. It might not hurt to get a cheap bookshelf and convert everyone to rubbermaids and maybe some cheap little plastic container for hides so that everything is new and completely parasite free, starting from scratch. At least until you have this problem licked and you are sure all the tanks are disinfected. I hope things turn around for you. I agree that across the board quarantining is a must.

[drewlowe]

oh yeah they are all in quaritine right now. They actually have been for a few weeks(the sick ones at least), but the rest of them are since i got the news. Also i use gloves already i have since i started keeping reptiles at least for cleaning cages i use them. As of now though i use them when handiling the leos.

Alicewave ammonia kills crypto on surfaces??? I heard nothing gets rid of crypto. The vet i'm going to now says they havent found anything thats strong enough to kill it. But then again he could be wrong on that.

As of right now i'm happy it's coccidia ( i never thought i would say that) and not crypto but i'm still waiting for the crypto test to come back.

What doesn't kill us makes us more knowlegable oh and stronger. LOL

Thank you everybody for the help and support during this stressfull time.

[Samba]

Just a comment on the gloves - Not to state the obvious but don't use them over and over again (unless you can sanitize them), and take caution when disposing of them. Wildlife and other pets (such as dogs and cats who might get into the trash), could be exposed to the coccidia and possible crypto on the gloves. Good Luck Jaime, and trust me... the journels really help the vets determine the severeity of illness in animals... Hope to hear a positive update soon!

[Alicewave]

Here is a chart about what kills what and how long you have to leave the chemical on for it to work. Ammonia works but you have to soak for 30 minutes. Formaldyhyde works too.
http://gpvec.unl.edu/Biosecurity-CD/BS-DinfectantUseTab.doc

There is another article out there that states the same thing but I can't find it at the moment. WHen I do I'll post the link.

[Alicewave]

This is still not the exact site I'm looking for but it offers TONS of into. Towards the bottom is lists ammonia at 5% for 20 minutes as the most common disinfectant.

http://www.cdfound.to.it/HTML/khan.htm

[drewlowe]

Thank you meg for that info, I appriciate it more than you know. Vet visit is tonight, i hope everything goes well. He's going to show me how to give them their meds. HEHE i'm an old pro at that though.

Whatever it takes for me to save my leos i will do it. I made a commentment when i bought them and i'm not going to give up.

[Samba]

Good Job, Meg, I read those myself and they are very interesting and helpful articles. Jaime I hope they help you out a little... Keep us updated on your kids... we are waiting for an update! Good Luck!

[drewlowe]

All 7 of them went to the vet last night. They all got treated for coccidia. He gave them albon, .06 ml ???(forgot the abv. but i know what it is in the syringe and i'm not at home to look) for 3 days on 3 days off 3 days on 3 days off and 3 more days on. After that thier treatment should be done. He wants me to bring a fecal in after 1 month of the meds not being taken. To ensure that the coccidia is gone. He still ran the crypto test just incase and that should be in hopefully this week. He says he doubts they have crypto but it still could be a possibility. (fingers are crossed)

I took in a fecal of my corns and they tested them for parasites and whatnot and yeaaaaa it came back negative. Now if only my beardies would poop so i can get them checked out.

[eyespy]

I'm so relieved to hear that crypto isn't a strong suspect anymore and am praying the test results will come back crypto-negative. There are still a lot of vets who don't quantify the coccidial strains and technically crypto is a coccidian, but it sounds like your vet knows the difference and I have a strong hope that the oocsysts are Eimeria or Isospora.

[drewlowe]

sorry i'm not real good with equations and stuff if it is 5% i have a 75 gallon cage i have to clean how much ammonia should i use??? i know thats a silly question.

Thanks eyespy, i'm hoping it's not crypto!!! This vet is my 3rd vet this year. Thank god i found him. He seems very knowlegable plus he keeps reptiles himself. He was telling me how he use to have 75 female leos and 12 males, he also has 3 beardies in a huge cage in the waiting room and a cage with uromastics (sp). So i would hope he is the most knowlegble vet in my area. The only thing thats bad is it take at least 1 hour to get there, but i really don't mind cause it's worth it to me to take them to someone that qualified.

Thanks again everyone i'll let you know how phoenix and the rest of them do on their meds.

[eyespy]

drewlowe, I'm not the swiftest with math myself, so I use the spray bottle approach myself to measure stuff out. For my 10% bleachwater it's 3 ounces of bleach in a 1 quart spray bottle then topped off with filtered tap water. Or in metric it would be 100 ml of bleach in a 1 liter bottle.

To make a 5% ammonia solution it would be 1.5 ounce of ammonia, then top it off. Or 50 ml of ammonia when doing metric.

Just keep spraying the solution so that all cage surfaces are saturated for the full half hour you need to keep the solution in contact with the caging, paying careful attention to tops and "high sides" to cover where it drips down. I also take a small, firm bristled brush (scrub brush from the OR scrub area but a hard toothbrush will do) and scrub like the dickens to try to mechanically loosen any oocysts that have clung to the walls.

[Alicewave]

If you were to actually fill the whole tank with an ammonia solution you would need 3.75 gallons of ammonia. But I like eyespy's suggestion better. Do it outside though. Ammonia is rough on the respiratory.

[drewlowe]

I will update you all a little bit. Phoenix ate on her own for the first time in over a month and she is finally having solid stools. yea finally some signs of improvement. She is becoming more active and alot fiester.

The bad news is that somewhere between st. louis and california the mail system lost the sample that was going to be tested for "crypto". The vet is going out of town to a show in florida so i have to wait until he gets back to take phoenix in. so he may get anouther sample from her. It would be my luck that something like this would happen.