!@#$%^ Up $#!t!! Cannibals?!?!

[tHeGiNo]

OMG! I just came downstairs to see my my sandfire yellow x red/gold bearie being eating by his partner! This is absolutely unheard of! I cannot believe this! They were relatively the same size, I am sorry I just cannot believe this. Killing eachother, yes, being aggressive, yes. This I don't even understand. They were hardely of age to start being aggressive to eachother should they be of the same sex. That is another thing, absolutely no prior aggression had occurred. If so I would have separated immediately. Anyhow when I came down the full tail and rear legs were hanging out. I didn't know what to do, fearing the other would choke on the one it was eating I gently pulled it out of his mouth. He now looks bloted and seems jumpy compared to his normal self. The other, dead. I guess I am just absolutely stunned, or shocked. Or both. I have truly never heard of this. I guess I just want to see what you guys think. Anything that could possibly go wrong with the one who was trying to eat the other?

[Gillards]

Holy !@#$% I have never heard of any thing like that !!!!!

[reptilez]

I once made the mistake of saying to myslf "Well ill get crix tommorow"
the next day when i got home with the crix, one of the babies was missing an arm.
So what Im gettin at is that maybe you werent feeding them enough??
But Actually eating the cage mate, Ive never heard of that, He must have been Really Hungry.
-Reptilez

[Andy_G]

That's really really strange...

[tHeGiNo]

No man. They were both eating like champs, making me go broke. They both ate 13 silk worms today. I don't think they were hungry. Missing an arm is much different then eating. That could have been due to aggression...

[reptilez]

so the one that was being eatin Survived??

[tHeGiNo]

No, he died :(

[Dragon_Slave]

That is so HORRIBLE! How old were these dragons? How big? In order for the one dragon to get the other dragon in his mouth, it must have been quite a bit smaller! I am so sorry that you had to see this, that is so so so sad!

[tHeGiNo]

No, they were nearly the same size! That is why I am shocked. For the size I have the breeder as proof but because I do not have their permission i will not say any names. They were only 7 weeks old, not very big and never showed any signs of aggression. Again I cannot stress this enough, THEY WAS A VERY LITTLE SIZE DIFFERENCE! Between this and the many other factors, I am truly shocked.

[lordkovacs]

that is crazy... had many reptiles over the years, and never heard of that. I did have a whites tree frog take a little nibble of my gold dust day gecko's tail. that's it though. crazy.

[Dragon_Slave]

I've never heard of this happening either! Wow... I'm shocked!

[Pia]

Sorry to hear that, it must have been a shock. I've heard of mutilations (eating toes, tails, arms) but never out and out cannibalism. I looked through one of my books and it said cannibalism is very rare and usually only happens when one dragon is significantly larger than the other. This doesn't seem to be the case, neither does lack of food. The only other thing I can think of is if it was a small enclosure and they had a super duper territory dispute. This book also said that mutiliations were most common in juveniles (two to four months old) and that higher than normal temps sometimes seemed to increase aggression. I've never heard of that before but who knows? Anyway, I hope this helps.

[tHeGiNo]

Very interesting, thanks for that info. I do not believe it was too small, a 20 gallon for two 7 week olds. The beardies were in no way of a significant size difference, I am so confused...

[ICULIZARD]

We were very sorry to hear about your baby. We have never seen that type of aggression before with our babies or with any of our breeders.

The two babies you had from us were almost exactly the same size when you purchased them....

We would like to offer you another Dragon....I know that it will not replace the one that you lost, but we hope that a new, active and entertaining little guy will help.

As soon as you have a new (separate) enclosure set up.....please come see us and pick a new baby from any of our available clutches.

Also, if you would like us to have a look at your set up to make sure it is suitable we could arrange this anytime. We are always here to help with any of your questions and provide you with any information that you need.

Look forward to speaking with you soon. Once again, we are sorry that you had to go through this.

ICULIZARD

[Dragon_Slave]

Wow! You are one GREAT breeder! I am very impressed... I saw your site too and your dragons are amazing! Too bad you aren't in the U.S. or I'd be knockin on your door just to stare at your dragons, LOL! :D

[meow_mix450]

wow i am too(impressed) thats what a good breeder would do if something that would would rarly happen...im srry for your lost but thats very odd...i cant think of any other reason why that would happen but im really shocked

[Gillards]

WOW!!! Now that customer service. Thumbs up to ICULIZARD.

Lorraine

[Rebecca]

Sorry for your loss. It sucks when a pet dies. Your lucky that the breeder is such a good one as to give you another one.

[tHeGiNo]

Wow, I too can agree your the best bearded dragon breeder I have come across. Your animals are truly amazing, and your customer service is just extraordinary. I know this is something you don't have to do and I am very greatful for that. Anyone looking for beardeds or vittikins, I would highly highly recommend Megan at ICULIZARD. Working with you on your website has been a pleasure, and by the way I made those changes for you :D Again thanks, and I am still stunned on how this could have happened. As Megan said herself, they were almost the same size...

[ICULIZARD]

Thanks to everyone for their nice words.....we just do not feel that someone should have to pay good money and lose their animal because of no fault of their own.

We understand that sometimes things happen and there is nothing that could have been done differently.....

Once again, if anyone needs help with any information or answers to questions we are always here to help.


ICULIZARD

[ICULIZARD]

Forgot to mention:

In your first post, you were concerned about your other Dragon....you should not have any complications with him because of what happened. However, keep a close eye on him and update us if there are any changes.

Thanks

ICULIZARD

[enso]

I'm sorry to hear about the loss. Freaky things happen... ICU you people are amazing. If all breeders were like you the world would be a better place. Awesome service!

[raebug2000]

very kewl that you are replacing his beardie! im so impressed with your level of just basic human kindness.( did that sound snootie? it wasnt meant that way)
wow had i known i would have done bussiness with you instead of this other place....
triple thumbs up..... and bravo.
and oh get a seperate enclosure for your kids this time.

[Canadaherp]

it happened to me once when i first got a few babies from the show, they were the same size and i was flabbergasted but hes kinda permanently disabled from it as in he hurt his back or something doing it but hes okish now and still eats and everything but isnt growing, yet hes still healthy and fat and eats well

[Greg West]

Man, now that is going above and beyond reasonable customer service. If I ever decide to get more dragons in the future, you will definitely be in my books. It is nice to see people who even though they don't have to take customer satisfaction over making the next buck. You have a very nice website by the way.

As for the original post, just to keep it on topic.

I saw another post that I will add my comments on that may or may not help. I myself have not had any problems like that so I can not comment personally.

There was a comment made on the other forum sit about a number of babies in a clutch missing toes, tails etc. They were housed in good numbers in the proper sized enclosure, proper lighting, etc etc. Usually the lights would come on at 6 and feeding was 1 hour later (may be a bit off on my times, don't remember specifically). It was discovered that the lights were coming on an hour earlier and that basically the dragons were really hungry. When did this happen to you? Was it in the morning? How do you feed your animals? What times? Ample amount of food for the number of dragons you house?

Hope this may help, but it could just be a fluke. I hope I never have any problems like that.

Greg West

[ICULIZARD]

Thanks Greg.....obviously we are in the business to make money as well but customer service is very important to us and we do what we can.

I still can't figure out why it happened....must have been a fluke. All our dragons are treated by the vet every six months, so health is not an issue. We almost NEVER have tail tips and toes bitten off on any of our babies....(we feed adults twice and day and babies and juvie's get fed 4 times a day)

...and proper husbandry information is always given to all of our customers.

So, I just hope I never see another instance of this. I hate losing any of our babies.



:) Megan
ICULIZARD

[eyespy]

Figuring out why conspecific aggression happens is a really tough one. It's the second reason why bearded dragons are brought into surgery at the hospital where I used to work, right after impactions. I've seen tens of thousands of mutilations and many of them occurred between very well-fed individuals.

I've seen lots of beardies having impaction surgery to remove a cagemate's bones from its gut and there was a lot of food in there at the very same time. It's my opinion that how much you feed them isn't that big a deal. I've seen more well-fed lizards become aggressive than obviously underfed ones.

That might just be because a well-fed lizard has the strength to do more serious damage, though. It could also be that the folks who seek surgical care of their animals are the kinds who feed generously. If you don't have the money to feed your lizards well, you'll never have the money to go to a vet hospital to get a surgical repair of the bite wounds, after all.

The most common thing I've seen in the pre-op questionnaires was a change in the environment. My guess (and it's only a guess!!) is that changes in the social situation cause beardies to have to reassess their pecking order.


Here are some of the things that pop up frequently on those questionnaires:

New cages or cagemates

The owner just bought the animals and set them up in a new home thinking they'd get along fine because the breeder/pet store didn't have any aggression problems

A new clutch hatching

New cages set up where the others can see/smell the new arrivals

More than 5 hatchlings kept together

One sibling from clutchmates housed together outgrows the others by a fair percentage and turns bully


This is no scientific study by any means, though. We always have to go by what owners tell us their husbandry is so there's lots of missing information and no scientific controls. Take it with a large grain of salt. :D