Update on bearded dragon breeder.

[Greg West]

Well nothing has changed so far. I now know of 2 more babies that have died, and I will be letting everyone know who the breeder is if they are not willing to do anything about it. Another person phoned them and they basically gave him the cold shoulder. If that is the case, I will make it a point to let everyone know who this is and not to buy from them if they will not guarantee their animals for more than a few days if the proper conditions are met..

I will update this thread on this topic from now on.

Heres hoping for the best

RIP little seamus

Greg West

[Greg West]

Well I have an update, but it definitely does not end here. They have offered 50% off of another baby. I told him that I either wanted my money back or a replacement. He said he doesn't give money back which I figured from the beginning, but he is going to let me know tomorrow what his decision is. I am not going to pay for another beardy from them when Im not sure if it will make it or not. My biggest mistake was not saying anything earlier, but I still feel entitled to a replacement. I will let everyone know tomorrow what the outcome is, and who the breeder is if they are not willing to keep me happy. Heres hoping for the best

Greg West

[Greg West]

Well after a little while on the phone, I will be getting a replacement bearded dragon from the breeder. Its too bad that my little baby died, but they have stood by their animals and will be replacing it with another "healthy bearded dragon"

Greg West

[Greg West]

Well another uipdate from me on this breeder. They now say they will now compensate me on my bearded dragon as I have according to him told 2 different stories. Talk about rude as well. I will definitely not be recommending them to anyone after his conversation with me. He phones me on my cell and starts swearing at me "F" this "F" that, why are you lying to me blah blah blah. I told him he was not being too professional and I get well im fing pissed off. Then he tells me I am telling him about beardies that have died and that person contacted him and said some of his died as well. How am I sup[posed to know that. He didn't tell me that. I am so amazed by his customer service. He says that on here I posted here saying the vet said my dragon was dehydrated, and may have a vitamin deficiency. I may have posted that here, I will have to look back in the posts to see what i posted. I told him the vet didn't find a cause to what was going on. Obviously the dehydration and vitamin deficiency would have been an issue, but the bottom line was that this dragon was like this from the beginning. It never grew any and was always the same way. The so called vitamin deficiency if that was actually the case was diagnosed due to the black belly but that was there since purchase as well as everybody elses dragons they got. It was fed (food offered, but usually not taken) once in the morning once at night, and crickets were dusted with rep-cal just about every feeding, and sprayed twice a day. This combined with the fact that other peoples dragons were sick or dying shows to me that I should not be the one to blame. I don't want any other phone calls from this terrible business man, so I will not be posting his name here, but I would rather tell you of breeders who will stand by their animals and sell you quality animals as well.

Sorry for the rant but his phone call really just pissed me off, and that isn't an easy thing to do.

Greg West
Cornelsworld Terrariums
http://www.cornelsworld.com

[eyespy]

After working with bearded dragons for 18 years and working in a large veterinary hospital that sees up to 300 bearded dragons a week during the height of breeding season, I can assure you that dehydration and vitamin deficiency are frequently secondary problems caused by underlying disease or a malnourished mother who didn't have enough nutrients or moisture to put into her egg.

I sure hope the breeder reads this!

[Big AL]

Personally, I would rather you post the breeders name. It may save the rest of us from using this breeder. He obviously has a problem with his techniques.

[Greg West]

you can see their reply at http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=168376#post168376

it is in reply to my "stories" that I have been telling everyone.

[Iguanalady]

Now Greg. I know you are upset, but I am one of the other people who bought a dragon from this breeder and had it die. I do not think however that I am blameless, and I do not even expect compensation and I am certainly not going to publically point a finger. Its very bad form.

I bought my dragon in May as did you. The dragon was only 3 weeks old but I was quite taken with it. I also made the mistake of choosing colour over health and I passed over the ones I saw that were bigger and eating in front of my eyes. I saw the one you chose too and it did nopt look as robust as some of the others. The first week I had it I had to force feed it to keep it alive but I decided to take it on myself instead of asking for an exchange or refund. I made that conscious choice...several choices which put the responsibility on *me* and not the breeder. I chose to get a very young baby and one that did not look robust and when it became apparant that there was something wrong I made no attempt to contact the breeder. As a breeder myself I will not deal with people who do not bring babies back to me if they get sick. Once I had it happen that some of my babies got ill and I contacted everyone who had bought them and gave refunds to everyone who brought them back to me but one family wanted to go it alone and did not even seek a vet. When their baby finally died they wanted money back. Not likely!! All the sick babies I had taken back got better under my care and lived. If they had returned theirs sooner I could have saved it.

I saw your dragon when you bought it. It looked weak and runtish like mine. Only a few seconds after you bought it you were already worried about health asking me if I thought it looked ok. So then or within that first week should have been when you were asking for your refund. In not doing so you made a mistake. You should just chalk it up to experience and count it as a loss.

As for it not possibly being your fault that is impossible to say. Did you have the body necropsied to find the exact cause of death? If the little guy was a runt and only 3 weeks old and he came into your house where he was possibly exposed to diseases from your other dragons that could have done him in. It would have hit him harder because a beardies immune system is not fully functional until about 6 weeks of age and he was a runt but the disease that killed him could have come from your end.

Personally my little guy died of coccidiosis which I overlooked because I made a stupid mistake. My adults have coccidia and I have done more damage treating it than its worth so I allow it to go on as long as a superinfection does not flare up....then I treat. Since it does not pass thru the egg I dont worry about my babies. I just use strict quarantine and have never had a problem....until the TARAS show. There somehow a coccidia got into some of my babies and I am thoroughly digusted with myself. Either somehow I slipped up with the adults and baby quarantine or allowing people to handle babies at the show spead the disease from some other breeder. I dont know where it came from but it hit my weak little runt hard and killed him and I should not have been so focussed on one problem he had that I did not think to check him for coccidia.

I am really laying myself out here showing all my stupid mistakes I made in this one particular case....which as an experienced breeder I should not have made. But I wanted people to know it. As I am one of the other people you mentioned who have had a beardie die from this breeder and I would not like them to think I blame the breeder too. I blame myself.

The black belly was a colouration thing not a symptom. I have a feeling that it was coccidiosis that did both of our dragons in. When it comes down to it we should have picked more robust little guys--we made mistakes. The breeder perhaps made some mistakes too but we are not totally blameless. If you still think you deserve compensation, go ahead, but please keep it private. In general this is a very good breeder and this has just been a few awful cases and I dont think it deserves being made public.

By the way. Who is your vet? I missed the coccidia because I was an idiot and focussed too much on an eye problem the little guy had, but I am only a vets assistant not a vet. What experienced herp vet gets a new baby dragon in and thinks vitamin defieciency before he thinks coccidia. Take my advice....change vets!

Amanda

[eyespy]

That's a great post, Iguanalady, but coccidia can occasionally penetrate eggshells and affect developing embryos. In addition, oocysts can be transferred to the shells as they pass through the mother's cloaca, so that when the babies hatch they are immediately exposed to and can contract coccidia.

Isospora, the most common species of coccidia found in beardies does not generally pass the shell membrane, but Eimeria and Cryptosporidia can easily penetrate the shell. There are still a lot of vets who do not quantify oocysts when they see them on a slide and many cases of crypto are still being diagnosed as coccidiosis. Technically, that is correct as crypto is in the coccidial class.

If a person buys a new bearded dragon, it's a very good idea to get the guarantee in writing and have a fecal exam done within that guarantee period. Coccidians have up to a 30 day life cycle, meaning that it can take a month for a small infestation to multiply once. Babies can be infected with coccidia at hatching but it often takes several months for the colony to become large enough for the animals to be symptomatic. By then the warranty period is long past.

[Iguanalady]

My experience and research is entirely with Isospera since that is about the only coccidian in beardies that is common around these parts. I cannot remember the names but while I was researching the matter I came across a coccidia research page in a UK university and had a parlez with the researchers via email. I was told that Isospera is incapable of penetrating the embryo/egg and it purely an environmental disease. The word incapable was the exact word he used. I know a lot of medical and scientific types and they almost never say things with that much certainty--LOL--so I took it as pretty dependable. I have also had numerous clutches and having access to a microscope have alway found the results to be negative until after this one show (shows are a new thing for me and I was allowing too much handling....from now on I am going to be strict in only allowing purchasers to handle and ensuring hand sanitation--heck when I have people over to purchase babies I make them clean their hands between every cage no matter how monotanous...I should do it at shows too!). Anyway since proper sanitation and quarantine has always kept my babies "clean" I assumed that the coccidia researchers were probably right. I do however know that coccidia are very resiliant (they continue to develop even in formalin!) and long lasting. If the outer parts of the egg shells were contaminated I would see how babies could get contaminated as they hatched. So far though I have not had a problem unless I am lax with sanitation and quarantine.

[OttawaChris]

This is precisely the reason I will not touch a beardy that is less than 6 weeks old... my personal opinion is that any breeder that sells them younger than this is only asking for trouble.

[Greg West]

I think that is a good rule to follow. I am goign to bring that up at the next meeting so these kind of problems can be avoided. I think they should not be sold before a certain age, but also specify a certain size as well.

[sapphire_moon]

what is crypto and coccidiosis?????

[Iguanalady]

The general rule--if you are a member of the Bearded Dragon Breeders and Sellers Network--is that the dragon must be 6 weeks old or 6 inches long. When I sell my guys I always stick to that (I just should have followed it when buying too! Just got so excited over the little guys and thought...I'm a breeder...I raise young beardies all the time....didnt work that way tho!). I go by age first...for instance if one dragon has grown way faster than the others and is 6 inches before he is 6 weeks I will still wait because it still doesnt mean his immune system is mature yet. If however a dragon is not at least 5-6 inches by 6 weeks old then its most likely not healthy and I would not sell it if it looked sick anyway.

[sapphire_moon]

what is crypto and coccidiosis?????

[Tim and Julie B]

I bought 9 baby and 4 died I only got a return on three because they said there was a two week period which they did not mention when I bought them. So I got shafted. I wonder if it is the same breeder? TB

[Iguanalady]

They are both diseases reptiles can get and both caused by microorganisms. Enter cryptosporidia and coccidia in a search engine and you will find the information.

[Canadaherp]

i had 3, got replacements for 2, and they all died within a week so i gave up, i bought them a while ago but they all were blue in the lapels and beard and under the eyes