colubrid vs. boid PART 2!!!!!!!

[lordkovacs]

OKay, here is something else to discuss along the same lines as the first post of colubrids and boids discussion...

Is breeding out normal phases of boas/pythons for more "designer" phases not the same as what is happening with corns? For example, there are people that are breeding for patternless and albino and "het this" and "het that" for pythons and boas. How is that different that people breeding variations of corns? or is it different at all? the corn snake, if I'm not mistaken, has been bred together so much that it has created different colour variants (such as motley, creamsicle, snow, etc etc etc...). If you take a species such as the ball python, you can have someone that has taken recessive genes, made them dominant and matched them with other snakes with similar genes, etc... THAT IS THE SAME THING!!!! Those that breed corns are doing the same thing.

I don't pretend to be a master of genetics in snakes. However, I do believe personally that what is going on with the pythons/boas of hte world isn't much different then the colourbrids. You are breeding for genetic variations which suggests the price you sell hte offspring at...that is the exact same thing that corn breeders are doing...

Cheers all, and have a great day!
Mike

[Bryce Masuk]

No what people are talking about is Ie jungle corn it has part king part corn in it its a morph and has two different snakes that would not normaly breed together and mix them all ball morphs are rare genitic odditys they are not two speices mixed the only thing that you could breed to a ball is a bolen's python and NO one is doing that

[lordkovacs]

the first post had nothing to do with jungle corns and kings or anything. that is what I am replyig to. I am not talking about breeding two seperate species. I'm talking about breeding two inter-species. ie. a creamsicle with a normal or something. they are both corn, just have been tampered with. I agree with what you say bryce about hte jungal and having part king... I don't agree with pairing two seperate species.
My point is that if you are breeding anything other than what is found in the wild you are changing genes and codes. That puts you in the same situation as a corn breeder ( I am not including breeding corns and kings here... just corns of different morphs).
Cheers,
MIKE

[Linds]

The "designer" boas are still the same subspecies being bred to eachother, with the unfortunate exception of some of the BCC x BCI albino projects out there :( Where as a lot of the colubrid morphs are not same subspecies. Such as Albino Pueblan Milksnakes, they have been outcrossed with Nelson's milks. Creamsicle Corns are hybrids as well. Emoryi x Gutatta I think? Several of the corn morphs are called "corns" but have used an outcrossing to yield that morph.

[V.hb]

I'll probably get nailed for this, however i dont own any hybrids or would have any desire to.. I don't see the real problem to be honest.. living in captivity is as unnatural as it gets.

[Oliverian]

I don't see a problem with it, as long as people know what they're getting and they know that its a hybrid. If you sell someone a hybrid and don't tell them, they might try and breed it to the same species, producing an impure line that keeps going and eventually messes up the genetics of the whole species. The bloodline won't be pure anymore. I think if you want to breed to produce hybrids and you keep them yourself, thats perfectly fine. ...I'm expecting someone to write a big long post telling us all why it's wrong. I personally dont feel its 'wrong'. Just my honest opinion. ~TR~

[Andy_G]

I myself will be making some baby jungles, but I only plan to do this once. I plan to tell people what I am selling them down to a tee, and I do plan on keeping one. I feel the same as Oliverian.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Hate to do this to you Mike, but here's a couple of sentences from the original post- "look at so many colubrid species that have been hybridized, and are supported. Especially so when creating new morphs, outcrossing to different subspecies. " I believe that Linds was specifically referring to hybridization between species (with a reference to doing so to 'import' a specific recessive gene for a colour morph). Subsequent replies sort of hijacked the thread into a discussion about morphs, etc.

I'll reiterate my concern with this:

"many snake HYBRIDS are actually fertile, unlike many other hybrid animals such as mules. These animals can be bred, sold, released, etc. with possibilities for harm if people are not very careful. 3 or 4 generations down the road, when there are thousands of 'Jungle Corns' floating around, will all of the new owners be so careful? I doubt it."

How far down the road can you ensure that people will be careful, will tell the truth, or will even know enough about the differences to care?

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[lordkovacs]

I guess my intent with this thread was only to raise the issue that genetic tampering, is genetics tampering. whether that's to breed for some very rare form of python or boa, or for corn snake. I also stated in the original thread, that I don't claim to be a genetics expert or anything. So if in fact creamsicles or whatever, were first made by breading a corn with a milk snake or whatever, I disagree with that...I just was simply unaware. I have no interest in learning corn genetics.

I cleary stated that it was when someone pairs two unrelated species together that I disagree with. I personally am not interested in mating two unrelated species. The closest thing I would do personally, is mate the best looking species I can. I plan on sticking to natural bloodlines if I can. Just my opinion... cheers,
MIKE

[Jeff Hathaway]

Hey Mike,

Glad to see we agree- I wasn't trying to suggest that you were in favour of hybrids...

I see no problem either in breeding the best looking to the best looking- such selective breeding has happened for ages and goes on all the time in nature (not always for the best looking though). Personally, I don't have any problems with line breeding to speed up the creation of morphs, etc., as long as people realize the potential downsides to such breeding projects in terms of overall animal health and fitness.

I can even live with people intentionally producing naturally occurring intergrades, though I have no interest in this (or line breeding). Personally I tend to think that the natural forms are the prettiest, but that's just my opinion.

The only thing I disagree with is hybridization between species when such hybrids are fertile. If they were infertile, I wouldn't care.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[lordkovacs]

exactly... i think you said, Jeff, what I was intending to say. I just feel that some people make comments about corn morphs, and I just wanted to draw attention to the fact that in a way line breeding isn't so different. I do however stand corrected with some varieties of corn that have been "created" my out-breeding with non corn snakes...I wasn't aware that some were made like this. Genetics at this point is not so much of an interest to me. I think I will jsut stick to the natural species.
Cheers,
MIKE

[Aaron_S]

Originally posted by Bryce Masuk
the only thing that you could breed to a ball is a bolen's python and NO one is doing that


Just so you know,angolan pythons can be bred to ball pythons and it has been done.

[Jeff_Favelle]

the only thing that you could breed to a ball is a bolen's python and NO one is doing that

Bryce, just curious as to why you'd pick Boelen's Pythons? I mean, why would you assume that an Indonesian python very very far away from the habitat of a regius would be the only candidate for hybridization? I would have at least picked another African python (which was already mentioned AND has been done).

But even funnier is that another Indo Python HAS been bred to a Ball. A Blood python.

http://www.chondroweb.com/DrFrankenstein/BloodBall.htm

[Bryce Masuk]

First off Jeff That snake is a Frankenstein
Second I put bolens but meant Angolan python's Big mistake infact massive mistake who has been crossing the two in captivity and selling them? I figured anyone in there right mind would at least try to keep the angolan pythons lines clear and clean unlike the other screw up's

[Jeff_Favelle]

I'm not advocating any hybrid or inter/intra-specific cross. I was just correcting you in that there are TWO other species that have ALREADY been crossed with Balls, other than the ones you've mentioned.

But I wouldn't cross out the Angolans. It was most likely an Angolan male to a normal female BP (no one would waste a female Angolan breeding year at this stage of the game). But I still wouldn't do it. And not because they are ever going to be re-introduced back to the wild, because they won't.

And.....

The only thing I disagree with is hybridization between species when such hybrids are fertile. If they were infertile, I wouldn't care.

If the offspring are fertile, then by the scientific definition of a species, the two snakes in question are not different species. (devil's advocate). Makes you wonder........

[Jeff Hathaway]

Indeed, it calls into question our definition of the term species, now doesn't it??? Of course, we could just fall back on the idea that it doesn't normally happen in the wild...

All taxonomy is just humankind's attempt to arrange order from nature's chaos to make it easier for us to understand. Organisms don't care about phylogeny, they aren't lumpers or splitters, and they pay no attention to our definitions.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Bryce Masuk]

yep maybe its the fact they are not seperate species or as far as the definition goes..... I have a feeling in the near future the complete taxodermy system is going right out the window as far as most reptiles go

And Jeff I was Wrong Its odd people feel the need to cross any and everything The only cross I want to see is King cobra X Retic via artifial semination........

[lordkovacs]

i agree bryce...i don't get why you would want to cross two seperate breeds? it just seems that people are playing God. Hope that doesn't sound too offensive... it's not meant to be.
Mike