feeding

[dan2492]

I was just wondering some of you people have like 20 snakes i just wanted to know how you afford to feed them all.
Dan

[meow_mix450]

im not a snake person but i bet before they buy 20 or wutever snakes they think about all that...but im guessing that most people breed rats gerbals etc im just guessing cause they can they have babys in 16 days so ya... hope it helps

[reverendsterlin]

I usually get 500 frozen to an order twice a year. Buying in that quantity is much cheaper than any pet store feeder price.

[Invictus]

I buy mice bulk as well. My freezer has more snake food than people food in it. :)

[dan2492]

Where do you order from in bulk and how much does it cost??
Dan

[Smilts]

yea i need on that train

[dan2492]

so where do you order bulk mice from and how much do they cost???

[lordkovacs]

you would probably pay $1.50 for a small rat each, if you buy 100. mice would be cheaper... look up rodent breeders in your area... probably you could search yahoo.ca or google or something... where do you live?

[dan2492]

Wisconsin

[marisa]

I breed my own mice. They stink. It sucks. But its cheap. LOL

Marisa

[dan2492]

yeah i know thats why i was looking for alternitives im gonan breed my own too but it does stink pretty quick even if you keep it clean

[Chris_Flowers]

Originally posted by marisa
I breed my own mice. They stink. It sucks. But its cheap. LOL

Marisa

I know I'm going to regret asking but, how do you kill them!?

Or do you feed them live? I couldn't bring my self to do either :p

Bit of info for anyone interested, but did you know, that here in the UK its illegal to feed live food to pets with the exception of insects.

Is it the same in the US aswell?

[MoReptiles]

I personally breed my own mice to feed my 25+ adult or juvenile cornsnakes. I have ordered f/t mice online, and find raising my own to be better quality and less expensive. The other advantage is that I can get the exact size that I want. I don't feed live, but either feed f/t or pre-killed.

Regarding the way to prepare a mouse for feeding, there are 2 recognized humane ways. One is CO2 gas to put them to sleep, and the other is to instantly and mostly painlessly put them to sleep by severing the spinal column at the neck.

For Marissa, I have a great recipe for mousee water (this came from cowboyway). Trust me, if you use this for your mice, it will reduce the smell a lot.

1 gal. water
1 teaspoon vanilla
5 to 10 drops gse (grapefruit seed extract)

I also use gse (no vanilla) in the water for the snakes.

Mark

[NewLineReptile]

I breed my own

[snakehunter]

to kill a mouse (i know, im cruel and heartless, but if my snake is going to remain alive i will do almost anything) i just use my fingers to suffocate them, but if they are bigger like hoppers i use hemo's so i dont get bit!

[Chris_Flowers]

I don't agree with the suffocation method. Whenever I see animals being treated cruely or being killed I always automatically put myself in their shoes, so-to-speak. Suffocation is a long horrible way to die.

Obviously being put to sleep or severed at the spine is, in most cases, quick, painless and humane.

Personally I don't agree with breeding and killing the mouse anyway, especially when they are readily available in varying sizes frozen. Ok so we don't know how they've been killed when bought frozen from the shop, but nine out of ten times they've been put down humanely.

Maybe its just me, maybe I couldn't bring myself to do it - but then, I wouldn't want to do it. I love snakes, but I love all animals/creatures. I rescue spiders and insects from my house and put them outside when others in my family would just kill them!

[Zoe]

snakehunter... that is a most inhumane method of killing your rats, to suffocate them hemostats?

Chris - petstores don't always kill their rodents humanely. I know a couple petstores that kill babies by just sticking them in the freezer, and adults by suffocating them. :\

I just whack mine against a desk or a wall. That works pretty well, kills them instantly.

Zoe

[Chris_Flowers]

Originally posted by Zoe
Chris - petstores don't always kill their rodents humanely. I know a couple petstores that kill babies by just sticking them in the freezer, and adults by suffocating them. :\

That's why I said nine out of ten times! I'm under no illusion that there will be some pet stores that kill inhumanely, but from a personal perspective I'd rather live in ignorance and assume they've killed them humanely. To kill them some of the ways I've read from people here and other snake/reptile owners, I just don't agree with it.

I just whack mine against a desk or a wall. That works pretty well, kills them instantly.

And theres another one I don't agree with!

It must just be me then. I just couldn't bring myself to kill them :confused:

[Zoe]

Lol chris i hear you! I would rather not kill them myself either. But I still don't think 9/10 petstores kill them humanely.

Also, whacking them against a desk or wall is violent, but it kills them painlessly and instantly.

Zoe

[Chris_Flowers]

Well I think I've said my piece on this issue. I'm just a strong believer of any cruelty to any animals. I don't take it as far as some do though, like these often crazy animal activists who do some crazy things.

I say cruelty, because if somebody was whacking mice against a wall or desk for amusement/pleasure then the RSPCA (speaking in the UK of course) would have a case on their hands for 'Cruelty To Animals'. Just because your doing it to feed another animal, doesn't change the act that resulted in the death of the animal.

As for pet stores, ok its fair to say niether of us really have an idea of how they are killed in pet shops, or at least don't have accurate figures to say something like '9/10 don't' etc.

[lordkovacs]

i agree with zoe... i have bought from 4 different shops over the years, and they ALL do the same... put them in a freezer live. I got to know most that work in the rep. departments, and it's all the same. maybe it's just coincidence that it's 4 / 4 for me...
cheers,
MIKE
oh, I sometimes am able to go in the back and get my own rats from the freezer, and I have seen for myself rats in a bag that are still half alive, and suffocating. It's AWFUL to see. Once, I grabbed a bag, opened it, and thumped all the rats on the head to put them out of their misery...
later,
MIKE

[marisa]

Chris_Flowers - For one I don't agree with making statements you cannot show proof of. I totally understand how you FEEL but that doesn't mean whacking mice IS inhumaine. In fact they way WE whack mice, they are dead instantly. We use a large screwdrive handle and they recieve one blow on the head. Not the face, not the neck, the head. So when does the suffering come in??? If you have links that prove a mouse killed instantly still suffers, I'd love to see them. And sure at first a few DID suffer, but with a SHORT amount of pratice you can kill them instantly.

Secondly, its fine that YOU feel that way but you can't pass off your feelings as facts. Saying things that you feel about certain methods about them being cruel is totally fine. That's how you feel. But it doesn't mean that its cruel for a fact. Many many people use Co2, this is an APPROVED method in the USA. And used by vets. Again you may feel this is "sad" or cruel, but that is not a *Fact* You see what I am saying? I am not coming down on you or personally attacking you or saying you are wrong. Just saying that a feeling you have doesn't make it fact. Some methods ARE cruel, but not all.

And frankly I CAN'T buy frozen mice. I live in an area that doesn't sell to many people, which makes feeders double or triple the normal price, and they still often only come live. If I used credit cards, sure I may order them. But then again my mice aren't suffering and they are killed humainly so I sleep just fine at night.

Marisa

[marisa]

Oh BTW Again its all :D:D:D:D jUST Discussion>

Marisa

[Chris_Flowers]

Originally posted by marisa
For one I don't agree with making statements you cannot show proof of.

Did I, or did I not say that none of us have hard facts about the way pet shops kill mice!? Ok my first post on the issue said 'nine out of ten times' but it was hardly a FACT. Besides, you cannot show proof that they do kill mice inhumanely.

I totally understand how you FEEL but that doesn't mean whacking mice IS inhumaine. In fact they way WE whack mice, they are dead instantly. We use a large screwdrive handle and they recieve one blow on the head. Not the face, not the neck, the head. So when does the suffering come in??? If you have links that prove a mouse killed instantly still suffers, I'd love to see them.

I'm sure there are many people outside this forum who would disagree with you that killing mice by whacking them is humane.

Besides, Zoe did not say she took a large instrument and whacked the mouse on the head. She STATED FACT that she whacks them against a wall or desk.

Do you think you would suffer if someone grabbed you by the legs and whacked you against a wall or desk? Would you feel the same if you had to kill a snake this way, but its ok because its to feed to another animal?

And sure at first a few DID suffer, but with a SHORT amount of pratice you can kill them instantly.

So the method is flawed. Can you say for a FACT that everytime you do this the mouse dies instantly then? And can you back this up with PROOF?

Secondly, its fine that YOU feel that way but you can't pass off your feelings as facts. Saying things that you feel about certain methods about them being cruel is totally fine. That's how you feel. But it doesn't mean that its cruel for a fact.

I'd appreciate it if you could point me to a post where I said 'its a FACT' or similar please. In FACT, I believe I even said 'maybe its just me' and 'I couldn't presonally do it'.

Many many people use Co2, this is an APPROVED method in the USA. And used by vets. Again you may feel this is "sad" or cruel, but that is not a *Fact* You see what I am saying?

Now you are assuming I think all methods are 'sad or cruel', when this is far from true. I don't have a problem with the Co2 method. As you state, its approved in the USA. Now I'm sure the authorities have approved that method because they've found its the most humane way.

Show me a legislation that says 'whacking mice with a large instrument/against a wall or desk is the humane way to kill them' and I'll take back what I've said.

And no, I don't see what you are saying to be honest. It could be said 'you have a FEELING that mice do not suffer when killed by a whack to the head' and that you're promoting this as 'FACT' when you have no hard evidence yourself as to the credibility of this statement.

I am not coming down on you or personally attacking you or saying you are wrong. Just saying that a feeling you have doesn't make it fact. Some methods ARE cruel, but not all.

Agreed.

[B]And frankly I CAN'T buy frozen mice. I live in an area that doesn't sell to many people, which makes feeders double or triple the normal price, and they still often only come live. If I used credit cards, sure I may order them.

Reptiles as pets are small business here in the UK in comparrison to the USA, yet I can buy frozen mice from a reptile shop 20 miles away from me. I haven't been there yet, but I've been told the garden centre in my town actually sells frozen mice!
I do not believe for one minute that there is not a single shop within a certain radius of your area. You say you have no credit cards like its the only method of payment with regards to online ordering/mail order when this is clearly not true. Debit cards and cheques are amongst other methods of payment widely accepted.

But then again my mice aren't suffering and they are killed humainly so I sleep just fine at night.

Yet you feel the need to voice this and reassure yourself ;)

As you have stated, this is not a personal attack on you, its a discussion/debate. As I have expressed my feelings so have you.

[drewlowe]

Chris i understand how you feel about killing mice. when i started keeping snakes i hated it but it's something you have to do. and our snakes have to eat. This is something us herpers take into consideration when we devote our time into this hobby. I personally like ALL animals but i have and will do if need be *flick* a mouse in the back of the head. I know i sound so cruel but trust me im not and neither is the procedure. you will find there are alot of us out there that have an will kill a mouse or rat. Would you rather us feed live prey and have the mouse kill or injure the snake. Plus i "think" the snake killing the mouse would be more painful than us flicking, hitting with a blunt object or banging on a hard object. Just my thought on this subject.

[Chris_Flowers]

Originally posted by drewlowe
but it's something you have to do.

I accept your points but this I'm afraid I have to disagree. It would be 'something you have to do' if there were no alternative, but we all know frozen is readily available.

and our snakes have to eat. This is something us herpers take into consideration when we devote our time into this hobby.

Absolutely. Its something I took into consideration before purchasing my snake (feeding that is, not killing my own prey).

I personally like ALL animals but i have and will do if need be *flick* a mouse in the back of the head. I know i sound so cruel but trust me im not and neither is the procedure.

I'll not say another word on this point, we've been here in this thread several times already.

you will find there are alot of us out there that have an will kill a mouse or rat. Would you rather us feed live prey and have the mouse kill or injure the snake. Plus i "think" the snake killing the mouse would be more painful than us flicking, hitting with a blunt object or banging on a hard object. Just my thought on this subject.

I'm under no illusion that there are many out there that do kill there own mice/rats etc.
To be honest, I'm not in any position, nor am I here to stop anyone killing how/if they want. I do not have anything against these same people. All I'm doing is expressing my feeling and opinion on the subject.

:)

[marisa]

It's nice that frozen is readily available TO YOU! Here it not only costs more, but like I mentioned its normally live from pet stores where I live. You cannot judge people because they do not buy frozen. You didn't just share your feelings, you called the methods that most of the snake community uses to kill mice, "cruel" when in fact someone killed the mice in YOUR freezer! Regardles how it was done, that just seems a little crazy to me.


You say: And no, I don't see what you are saying to be honest. It could be said 'you have a FEELING that mice do not suffer when killed by a whack to the head' and that you're promoting this as 'FACT' when you have no hard evidence yourself as to the credibility of this statement."

And, neither do you. You have less if anything since you have admitted you do not practice this method, and I do. I have killed about 1500 or more mice this way. So in fact, if anyone wants a credibility arguement, you couldn't participate because you have tried NONE of these things yourself. Which (experience) would be the starting point to any arguement.

I am SOOO happy you live in a wonderful place that sells cheap frozen feeders. How many snakes do you own BTW? I'd like to know. Because if you are feeding more than a few, you try ordering frozen with MY *local* prices! Regardless of that, your feelings are YOUR feelings. But telling people its CRUEL is not right IMHO because if none of us know for sure what gives the least pain, then you don't either. Plain and simple.

Its nice and cute that you "put yourself in the animals place" but you aren't a rodent, you aren't a mouse and you have NO CLUE about their systems and what they do or do not go through using various killing methods. Putting yourself in the animals place is fine if its a human. But it has literally no logical basis when you are trying to assume how another animal feels. They simply do NOT posess our "feelings" not to say they don't feel pain but it really makes no sense to "be the mouse" I understand the "emotional" side of it for you, but personally I keep my human emotions out of snake keeping as in the end it leads to more problems that good.

I suppose we should end this. You will continue to believe what ever you want is cruel, yet still keep the by-product in your freezer, while I will actually work in my experience with the methods of getting the snake food to my freezer. Good luck to you! :)

Marisa

[V.hb]

Originally posted by Zoe

Also, whacking them against a desk or wall is violent, but it kills them painlessly and instantly.


I dont want to argue this....... But thats completely false.... how do you know it kills it painlessly, and instantly? Ive seen rodents get hit against concrete and still kick.... There is NO humane way to kill anything...... anyway you do it, you're killing an animal and ultimatly when you are being killed with force, its gonna hurt.


The only method I feel is somewhat humane is gassing... Yes, it suffocates them, however they're asleep quite rapidly, they dont struggle as with being gagged with tools, or someones hands.... which can lead to broken bones, noses, fractures etc..

[V.hb]

marisa, people who worry about inhumane killing of their animals food usually purchase from a known reputable supplier..... most people who mass produce rodents dont stand there snapping necks one by one..

[emerglife]

they gas them with co2. me i have a baton i use for adult mice one hit and its game over

[Zoe]

I dunno, I think it would be worse to suffocate than to be knocked really hard on the head.

Do you think you would suffer if someone grabbed you by the legs and whacked you against a wall or desk?

Not if you hit me hard enough! hehe.

Also, when I whack my mice, I whack them hard. The first time I did I check for a heart beat and eye response right after, and of course there wasnt either. Not only that, but my mice were tame and not afraid when they were in my hand. And it takes maybe a 1/2 second to get from the air to the side of the table? I really doubt they feel the same panic they would when being suffocated.

But yeah, there really is no way to kill an animal humanely (heck, even euthanizing them is preced by a pinprick!). But I know either severing the spinal column or knocking right dead against a wall/desk is the quickest way to do it.
Maybe I'm just paranoid of suffocating, I mean I would HATE to drown or be choked! I'm slightly asmatic, so that could be why too.

Zoe

[Chris_Flowers]

Originally posted by marisa
You cannot judge people because they do not buy frozen. You didn't just share your feelings, you called the methods that most of the snake community uses to kill mice, "cruel" when in fact someone killed the mice in YOUR freezer! Regardles how it was done, that just seems a little crazy to me.

When did I judge people? I never said 'you are cruel because you kill mice such a way' did I? No. All I said was I think it cruel. Its opinionated, this is a discussion/debate. I'm not going to reiterate myself.

And, neither do you.

Lol :D Didn't I just say that!? Feel like were going round in circles here...

You have less if anything since you have admitted you do not practice this method, and I do. I have killed about 1500 or more mice this way. So in fact, if anyone wants a credibility arguement, you couldn't participate because you have tried NONE of these things yourself. Which (experience) would be the starting point to any arguement.

No. I like the way you side-stepped my comment. So would you think it cruel if people were whacking mice against a wall or desk or with a blunt instrument for pleasure? Or would you think its ok because they died instantly?

I am SOOO happy you live in a wonderful place that sells cheap frozen feeders. How many snakes do you own BTW? I'd like to know. Because if you are feeding more than a few, you try ordering frozen with MY *local* prices!

I don't believe I ever said it was cheap in my area, I just said they were available. 25 pinkys for £10 (about $17). Another thing, I've owned mice as pets before and I do not believe that the upkeep i.e. feeding, cleaning, breeding etc. of mice is cheaper then buying frozen.

Your argument is void. If I had more then one snake I would have to buy more mice - correct. If you had/have more then one snake, you'd have to breed, house, feed, clean more mice - uping your costs also.

Regardless of that, your feelings are YOUR feelings. But telling people its CRUEL is not right IMHO because if none of us know for sure what gives the least pain, then you don't either. Plain and simple.

Yes my feelings, my opinion, agreed.

Hang on, I thought you did know because you have experience in killing mice?

Its nice and cute that you "put yourself in the animals place" but you aren't a rodent, you aren't a mouse and you have NO CLUE about their systems and what they do or do not go through using various killing methods. Putting yourself in the animals place is fine if its a human. But it has literally no logical basis when you are trying to assume how another animal feels. They simply do NOT posess our "feelings" not to say they don't feel pain but it really makes no sense to "be the mouse" I understand the "emotional" side of it for you, but personally I keep my human emotions out of snake keeping as in the end it leads to more problems that good.

I quote, 'none of us know for sure what gives the least pain'.

Another issue you side-stepped, you said the authorities have authorised the use of Co2 as a method of killing mice humanely. But have they authorised whacking them with a large instrument? Please ask them why they haven't then, I'd like to know their answer.

I suppose we should end this. You will continue to believe what ever you want is cruel, yet still keep the by-product in your freezer, while I will actually work in my experience with the methods of getting the snake food to my freezer. Good luck to you! :)

As someone else quite rightly pointed out, those who produce mice on a mass basis, its highly unconceivable that they go around whacking 100s-1000s of mice to kill them.

Cheers ;)

[Chris_Flowers]

Originally posted by Zoe
Not if you hit me hard enough! hehe.

Lol :D

Well while I practice, at first you might suffer a little bit ;)

But I'll get used to it ;)

[ReptiZone]

Man all this fuss over a rodent I can't belive it I can'belive a read every post either.

well first off I have worked in Pet Stores and they are the least humain places to kill a rodent remember it is what you dont see that lets you sleep at night.

I have done 2 hours straight of just wacking we call it the wacking shift.

nowa days I kill 12 med rats 6 fuzys and 24 hamsters in the first week of every month.
Go in the basment and use the wall.(concreat)

now you all say well what happens if I did that to you but in all realaty it would have to be joly green giant being the exacuter to match up to the sam thing.

any ways this is how I do it I takethe rodent by the back legs and SMACK against the wall as hard as I can they become K.O.

have you ever ben K.O well needles to say you could be K.O and I could tatoo my name on your chest and you would not feel it.

after the big BANG I grab the neck and back legs and pull one up and one down gentelnes is not the key here.

in other words while they are K.O you are destroying there spinal cord consequently snaping there neck.it taks less than 10 secounds to have a 100% dead mouse and .5 to get them K.O

If you dont belive me you can check for a puls...LOL

now why do I do it cause If i dont my animals don't eat if my animals don't eat it is caled neglect and that we can get sued for.


Ohhh ya and you think Co2 is so humain imagine this you are put in a dark room all of a suden so weird gas leaks in you start breathing it in a realise it is not good for you you hold your breath hoping it will pass but no You hold your breath so long and strugle to stay awake then you have no choise you need to breath some thing anything so you take a deap breath hoping for air but no it is just that awfule gass then you start gasping for air then you pas out and die.

Try holding your breth and plug your nose and re read my whole post that is the life of a mouse in the Co2 chamber.

Now tell me it is humain.

I would rather die when i was K.O at least I dont see it coming or have to watch the clock B4 I die.

you wana put your self in there shoes well there you start lasing them up.

[ChunkyMunky]

I used to use rat traps to kill them but now i use an old stun gun that my brother gave me. It works very well and its really quick.

[Chris_Flowers]

Originally posted by chondro python
Man all this fuss over a rodent I can't belive it

That says it all really.

well first off I have worked in Pet

Me too - never had to kill mice or saw the killing of mice in the ways you describe.

now you all say well what happens if I did that to you but in all realaty it would have to be joly green giant being the exacuter to match up to the sam thing.

Not the point.

now why do I do it cause If i dont my animals don't eat if my animals don't eat it is caled neglect and that we can get sued for.

Wrong answer. Buy frozen.

Ohhh ya and you think Co2 is so humain imagine this you are put in a dark room all of a suden so weird gas leaks in you start breathing it in a realise it is not good for you you hold your breath hoping it will pass but no You hold your breath so long and strugle to stay awake then you have no choise you need to breath some thing anything so you take a deap breath hoping for air but no it is just that awfule gass then you start gasping for air then you pas out and die.

Evidently the gas wasn't strong enough, you got out!

Try holding your breth

I think perhaps you were when you wrote this if your spelling and grammar is anything to go by!

Have a good one ;)

[Zoe]

About CO2... it doesn't act like a big purple gas. You won't really notice it, unless you get a headache and feel nausea, then you pass out and die. It's not like mustard gas... it probably doesn't feel bad aside maybe burning lungs and a headache.

Yeah, those rat traps aren't humane. I've never used a stun gun though?

Chris - I think what you arent getting, and what people are saying, is that FROZEN animals had to die somehow. And most petstores don't caringly put animals to sleep, they KILL them! Either by CO2 or by whacking/spinal cord severing, both of which do cause nada to small amounts of distress to the animal. Just saying "well, im not being cruel because they are already dead when i buy them. but you're being cruel because you kill them yourself" is hypocritical. The only way to go against that is get them from a place that kills them the way you think they should - not just ASSUME that because they are already dead that they were killed humanely.

Now, I totally understand why the idea of whacking a mouse against a table/wall would be very unnapealing. But why does it bother you so much; why do you think it is so cruel, if the animal is obviously dead on contact with the table/wall?

And I think Chondro's "Green Giant" comment was to the point. If YOU tried to kill me by smacking me against the wall, you probably would not succede and it would only cause me pain. But if a giant were (relative in size to mouse/human) to hit me against a wall, I would die on contact.

I think perhaps you were when you wrote this if your spelling and grammar is anything to go by!
hehehe... but dont forget that chondro is french (at least i believe it is your first language?) and needs to translate. Although I do agree that the lack of punctuaction and some grammar and spelling leave much to be desired :)

Zoe

[Chris_Flowers]

Zoe: I see the point about killing and buying frozen being the same, but as someone else pointed out, if you go to a reputable place that mass breeds mice in their thousands, I hardly think they will go around snapping each ones neck or whacking them against a desk or wall.

The green giant point was not valid. Its all relative, of course I could not whack you against a wall. The point is, if I were the size of a giant and I did whack you against the wall - would it be painful? Any contact, or impact, is always going to hurt - even if its a split second before you die.

Chondro: My apologies. I did not realise you didn't speak much English.

All my valid points were side-stepped anyway, so its obvious this is just going to be a one way argument. Therefore this is my closing comment on this thread - no matter which direction it takes, I'll play no further part in it.

Chow!

[reverendsterlin]

lol what a comedy. I usually buy frozen but when I can't/don't I waste no time or energy worrying about how the prey will die it's food. I seriously doubt anyone's last steak came from a gassed cow, and when the round hits their skull there is plenty of kicking afterward. I grew up on a ranch killing and butchering all sorts of animals. Whether the mouse dies cleanly or not, my snakes don't care or at least don't complain to me if the mouse suffers. We're still killing/maiming each other, whats a mouse matter.

[spyderman]

I used to breed rats before I kept snakes, I could never kill one to feed my snakes.
I had to put one of the baby rats down because it was dying slowly, but that was to stop it from being in pain.
I buy my rats/mice frozen its probably a little dearer than breeding my own but I prefer not knowing how they died.

I think its a case of each to their own on this subject and also if frozen are easy to get hold of.

[tim88]

I breed my own mice also. I also use the same recipe for water as MoReptiles. It works very well and does help with the smell.

[KingJaff]

Cris, r u training to be a politician?
I mean, keep the spirit alive and all that (sever the qUEEN and ting)
but if u by frozen, u don't know how they deid, at least if you breed your own you can count on the quality of the animal and you know how it died (nicer then if you let my snake kill it) also if you cant handle the fact that mice have to be killed befor entering the snakes gut, then why do you own a snake?
Just to cheer every one up, I killed a bird with my bb gun the other day and i died a slow horrible death (by brick when my magazine ran out) and next time i do it, i'll be sure to think of u cris;)
lol

[marisa]

The bottom line is EVERYONE CANNOT BUY FROZEN!

You keep saying that's a solution to everyones problems but you cannot tell me you know exactly how every feeder you fed is killed.

Some of us CANNOT BUY FROZEN! period! I try to be nice to the mice but frankly if it means a mouse suffers for my snake so be it.

I REALLY hope you are a vegan, not vegetarian but a vegan. Because if not you eat meat, wear meat and help support something way crueler than mice killing. Just like I do by eating steak. And that pretty much makes your "everyone buy frozen, mice whacking is cruel" thing invalid and hypocritical.

Secondly mice breeding where *I* live is WAY cheaper than buying frozen for me. I am sorry its not for you. I save about 60-80 dollars a month breeding my own mice and have for three years now. Last year I bred about 500-1000 to stock up for the year. You do not even kill your own mice so I don't see how you have anything to say that can be backed up by PERSONAL experience. I am not trying to be rude, but a person who doesn't do their own breeding and killing telling me that my methods are cruel or they feel they are cruel, is laughable. You have no idea what goes on if you haven't done it before, you have no idea how long death takes to come from various methods except what you read on various papers all over the internet which are based on mouse killing for many reasons not just snake food.

Do you have ANY idea how many mice pet stores cram into C02 chambers? And you think my method is cruel?!?! LOL. Sure they go to sleep peacfully after being put in a box/tank/jar with a thousand or hundred other mice. And if you say they aren't then wow your pet store is unlike almsot every other in the world. And if you haven't SEEN them kill them with your own two eyes, then they will tell you they put on a funeral for each one to make you buy from them.

I didn't want to respond to this thread but frankly I find it offensive since I have been praticing my mouse husbandry and killing methods for three years now, at my home, before MY two eyes, not reading papers off the internet and regurgatating something someone else told me or what some pet shop claims. I really odn't want to offend you either but its like you telling me how to raise cornsnakes when I have four and you say have none.

Anyways good debate but we are at a point where we will have to agree to disagree.

Marisa

[steen]

Just thought I would post this info, as it may help some of you...I work in a research lab at a university that uses mice, rats, and gerbils for disease, feed, and breeding studies. A lot of research has been done to find the most humane way to "euthanize" these animals. They take into consideration the suffering of both the animal and the person doing the deed. They have found that the most humane way to kill a mouse is (by far) CO2. I can attest to this as I use it nearly every day. The most humane way to kill a rat, however, is technically decapitation. Since this is often more rough on the person (and not favorable for a feeder), the next best choice is cervical dislocation. The downfall to this is that, if a person is not properly trained to perform it, it can lead to a lot of pain and suffering for the animal. If it is not possible to have someone experienced show you this method, then CO2 for rats is the third most humane method. There is research to back this up...thought I should mention it. Hope it helps!

(Oh, I forgot to mention that while "whacking" as we're calling it isn't approved in the US, it is in many other countries. One of the animal technicians that I work with holds the mouse by the tail and swings it around, cracking its head on the end of a counter so that just the head hits. This *immediately* renders the mouse unconscious and often breaks its neck, but just to be sure, she also ensures that their necks are broken...she does this very quickly after the "whack" by placing a butter knife just behind the animals skull to hold the head down and giving the tail a *solid* jerk backward. This does the job EVERY time...as far as this method being painful, the animal's brain signals shut down so quickly that it doesn't have time to feel a thing. Sort of like a person in a bad car accident...when they wake up in the hospital they don't remember the collision...except that the mouse doesn't wake up of course....)

[Lisa]

Most pet stores don't have CO2 chambers, as a CO2 chamber would cost money. most either get the stuff prefrozen or stick them in the freezer themselves.
We try to kill our mice and rats with CO2 by getting some dry ice and putting it in warm water to make co2 gas. it is quick and painless. to see how quick and painless i put a mouse in our chamber that was prefilled with CO2 gas and watched how quick it acted. the mouse took 3 steps and fell over. It's basicly knock out gas, the rodent just gets sleepy, falls over and dies painlessly. Much easier on the mouse and much easier on my conscience. When we have to have a mouse and don't have dry ice we do whack them but it is emotionaly painful and the mice are terrified.

[TheRedDragon]

I myself have a Kenyan that is a problem feeder (Invictus may have mentioned her). We decided to try her on fresh killed. So, Invictus brought home this cute little hopper...I put it in a plastic bag, and whacked it. Anyways, to make a long story short, I felt an immense amount of guilt for it, and, from now on, I'd prefer to find a more humane way to do it, or to just get someone else do it. Invictus suggested mousetraps...that may be a decent solution since it breaks their necks instantly, but, I have seen the traps miss, which would cause the mouse to suffer needlessly. What are your thoughts on the trap idea?

[KingJaff]

normally when we use rat traps, 8 out of 10 times we always find the rat with its eyes poped out of its sockets (not nice) if not theres always loads of blood coming out of the ears and nose (very messy and not perticulaly good for the snake)

[elaphe4herps]

I wanted to say that a good way to keep the smell of rats and mice down, if you breed, is to put chlorophyll in the water. you can buy chlorophyll at drug stores and nutrition stores as is comes in liquid pill form. it is used to treat bad breath in humans. also, I wanted to say that mice smell worse than rats, imo.

anyway, I just wanted to throw in my .02 (but not get into the whole.. killing discussion)


Thanks, WES :zi:

[snkmn]

they breed the rodents.

[reptiledude21]

u could just put some rubbing alcohol in front of its nose and drug it first.