Colubrid vs. Boid: The Hybrid Debate

[Linds]

Why is it that colubrid enthusiasts are so much more accepting and supportive of hybrids than are boid enthusiasts? You look at so many colubrid species that have been hybridized, and are supported. Especially so when creating new morphs, outcrossing to different subspecies. On the other hand, the majority of boid enthusiasts wish to keep the lines pure, and are generally unsupportive of anyone attempting hybrid projects. We all know which side I am on. But this is an interesting observation I have made and just cannot seem to figure it out... :confused:

[enso]

Big snakes, big egos, small... um, yea...

[Tim and Julie B]

I have mostly colubrids and totally agree that all snakes should be kept pure. I don't ever intentionally mix anything. Locals should always be kept pure whether it's a king, corn or boid. Just my opinion. :D Tim B.

[Linds]

Only problem with the purity factor is that, people just getting into the hobby may think that their creamsicle corn or albino pueblan is pure due to the name, but indeed is a hybrid. They aren't all obvious hybrids :(

[Tim and Julie B]

True but why knowingly do it I had this descussion with the corn snake crowd about why don't corn breeders don't keep the locals pure. Pretty soon they are just going to be a jumbled mess of het for everything. Just like leopard geckos! Who can tell the difference between subspecies after only 20+ years in captivity. But I guess it all comes down to what the breeder finds ethical and what they don't. IMO of course. TB.

[Grant vg]

Perhaps, could it be because it is easier to hybridize most colubrids then it is in boids, therefore more widely accepted by colubrid fans?
Or perhaps its because most boids kept in the hobby are from exotic countries and therefore considered more "exotic" as well as harder to breed not to mention some that are near endangered making the purity of the species more of an issue?

Unfortunately, i think if you could hybridize boids as easily as colubrids it would be even more popular...
I for one would never do it...But i would assume there would be alot of ppl who would eventually want to breed a burm with a ball, a boa with a blood, etc...

my thoughts anyway....

[marisa]

One being the parents are so cheap to be had. You don't have to worry about wasting a year or not selling the babies or anything like that. They are cheap! I would be more reluctant to breed my albino RT boa with another species than I would be with my snow cornsnake LOL. :) I am not really missing out on much if I dont have a clutch of pure snow corns, but I would be missing out big time if I had some mutted up clutch of boas instead of pure true albino RT's. (just example using somewhat middle end snake)

Another reason is alot of people justify corn crosses with certain things as being natural intergrades so it makes them feel better about it I guess. I don't feel one way or another on the issue myself, but because I myself prefer the looks of the pure snakes I will be keeping all mine pure.

I would also think its kinda like "throw away pets" people don't get in much trouble for abusing goldfish, because they are "worthless" I am not saying hybrid people think these snakes are anything but amazing creatures, BUT corns and kings are like the goldfish of the snake world somewhat, and easy to "mess" up or breed to another species etc.

That's my guess. Like I mentioned, I personally don't care either way aside from the fact I prefer the look of pure species.

Marisa

[Swampwalker]

I'm still trying to figure out why people keep creating all these morphs. Whats wrong with what nature created?

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Its all about the money..

[Jeff_Favelle]

Its all about the money..

Yeah, right. People are getting rich off of making corn snake morphs. Riiiggggghhhtt....

[lordkovacs]

I would say creating hybrids in snakes that likely will never be in danger (say, the corn) in the wild is less dangerous than creating hybrids in some larger boids who have their natural environment being torn down every day. I realize the corn's environ. too is begin developed, but not even close to the extent. Clear cutting, deveopment, and waste are destroying many habitats for these larger snakes, say, the ETB. Perhaps my argument is a little weak, but it's maybe something to think about. Oh, another thing, there are no hopes now for returning corns to their natural bloodlines, that's why no one really brings that issue up. Interesting thread Linds...
cheers,
MIKE

[lordkovacs]

oh, forgot to mention that I agree with almost all Marisa had to say...esp. about the goldfish. I got into herping about 6 years ago, when I got my first corn. I think I got it for a couple reasons a) it was very colourful b) I was told it was a great beginner snake c) not a reason, but I was unaware that my snake was a morph...I assumed there will different breeds of snake, similar to the lowland gorilla and highland gorilla. I thought the corn was natural, just different because of hte area it lived in.
Don't get me wrong, I like colubrids too. I do have 2 of them!
cheers,
MIKE

[Edwin]

I think it is because it is easier to do compared to boids, it produces nice colors/patterns, and there is demand for it. Also, the price and availability of corns make it more accessible, thus more people are doing it. Also, corn prices are relatively low, and interesting hybrids are a good way to differentiate and charge a little more.

Just my thoughts.

[SCReptiles]

I'm still trying to figure out why people keep creating all these morphs. Whats wrong with what nature created?
Nature creates hybrids all the time. I have an intergraded black and yellow rat snake that I collected from the wild in Horry County SC. Do you think Noah had 2 of every snake in the world on the ark? I don’t think so. I believe he had 1.1 constrictors and 1.1 venomous and the many species we have today derived from those 4 snakes thru many generations of adaptation (natural selection) and then hybridizing back together. Right now in the western United State the Mojave Rattle snake is crossing the the Western Diamond back on a regular basis. This is creating a new and VERY dangerous hybrid in the wild. The Mojave has a very toxic Neurotoxic venom, but by nature he injects only a small amount. This new hybrid carries the type A venom but injects massive amounts. FYI

[Colonel SB]

~~Preservation through captive propagation~~ This is Linds signature, it says it all! I am against man made Hybrids, Looks at the B.c.i & B.c. complex how huch inbreeding and cross breeding has gone on in the last decade. Once the genetic waters are dirty they can never been clean again! No matter how much outcrossing you do!

Natural Hybrids are a different story all together, let nature take her own course she doens't need our help!

[reptile gallery]

...I was wondering when someone would raise this question.
I have been silently watching the great issue of late...morphs. Particularly related to boas. I find it almost comical how so many jump on the wagon to condemn and criticize boa and python morphs only to boast of their fondness and admiration for their designer corns or another trendy new leo morph?????
Very many people dont even realize that the animal they keep is indeed a morph.
I'm all for responsible breeding, regardless of species, but many of us must stop preaching from the fence. If it is a 'good thing' then it should remain (with responsible and ethical breeding), but if it is 'bad', let's all realize that it is bad for all species...yes even your favorites!!

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Yeah, right. People are getting rich off of making corn snake morphs. Riiiggggghhhtt....

Getting rich and making MORE money is a different issue. Mophs on corns are "worth" more than normals, even if its a few extra bucks. Normal Ball pythons, $15
But when you throw out that fancy albino or pies, well by golly its over a wopping grand or two.. Maybe 3. So again, Its all in the money.




Nature creates hybrids all the time. I have an intergraded black and yellow rat snake

Nature creates intergrades. Hybrids are what are made from human interventions..
Can't say I've ever seen a corn snake bred to a cali king in the wild.

[lordkovacs]

I agree with reptile gallery... I'm the first to admit that I bought 2 corns, though I didn't really grasp all the genetics behind them. had I done that, to be truthful, I wouldn't have been so interested. However, I have these two corns, and I really enjoy having them. I am not going to sell or give them away just because I wasn't so knowledgeable 5 or 6 years ago.

cheers,
mike

[Bryce Masuk]

I cant explain people's feelings towards anything but it could be the fact that many colubrid owners are only working with colubrids these are there first animals and dont care or understand these issues I am not saying EVERY one is like that but it could be possable that these are first timer's



while people working with carpets (Imo The LEAST excepting of hybrids) understand the truth. if the carpet genitics are fouled were fu$*ed we cant get them from the wild what are we to do... but with corns people think.... I can find a pure corn let me get a hook .....lets go herping
People value pythons much higher then most colubrids
so it could be a combo?

[Oliverian]

Personally.. I think if you love the snakes, it shouldn't matter if they are a mix of species or not. Obviously for some it is different, because some people want to keep the snakes pure (not a bad thing), but if you love the snake for what it is, it shouldn't matter. I personally love all snakes, and to me, they are all interesting and unique, even if they are hybrids. ~TR~

[Jeff Hathaway]

KG3 touched on an important point- there is a world of difference between:
morphs- different colour/pattern phases of the same species, either naturally occurring (in the wild) or 'artificially' through selective breeding
intergrades- subspecific interbreedings which commonly occur in the wild, especially where ranges overlap (i.e. yellow X black ratsnakes = 'greenish' rat snakes, naturally occurring intergrade)
hybrids- the results of two entirely different SPECIES being mated together, which generally does not happen in the wild, though there are exceptions.

A particular concern I have is that many snake HYBRIDS are actually fertile, unlike many other hybrid animals such as mules. These animals can be bred, sold, released, etc. with possibilities for harm if people are not very careful. 3 or 4 generations down the road, when there are thousands of 'Jungle Corns' floating around, will all of the new owners be so careful? I doubt it.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Well put.

[Piers]

a morph and an intergrade are two differnt things. Leo morphs arn"t crossed with other geckos.
Marisa, I'm not sure but I don't think that a "true albino redtail" exists. It is a hybred, I hope I'm wrong.
The trouble with cross breeding is people can't leave the animals at 50/50. Ie the indian python in north america is almos always a cross with a burmies python. another is the jungle/dimond cross.
People may start out with good intentions but money and lazzyness takes over and people loss track of what is what.
Piers

[SCReptiles]

Webster’s dictionary:

Hybrid- Genetics. The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races.

Intergrade - To merge into each other in a series of stages, forms, or types.

I will stand by my statement that hybrids are created in nature.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Well said, Chuck! Technically, using the dictionary definition, hybridization covers species, subspecies, colour phases, cultivars, etc. as a general term. So yes, I'll agree that with this definition hybridization happens rampantly in nature. It could even be argued that any form of sexual reproduction (to parents with different genes, though only slightly different) could be viewed that way, if you took the definition strictly enough. However, from a biological point of view these things are quite different, and we generally differentiate between them with additional terminology.

'Intergrades' generally do "merge into each other in a series of stages, forms, or types" in the wild. For example, in North American ratsnakes, moving northwards, Everglades, Everglades X Yellows, Yellows, Yellow X Blacks, Blacks (yes, there are others as well). In fact, as it turns out, these various forms may all be more closely related together genetically despite their outward appearances than Blacks from one side of the Appalachians are to Blacks from the other side.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Colonel SB]

I have been silently watching the great issue of late...morphs. Particularly related to boas. I find it almost comical how so many jump on the wagon to condemn and criticize boa and python morphs only to boast of their fondness and admiration for their designer corns or another trendy new leo morph?????


There is a big difference between a man made hybrid, and a genetic ressisive trait brought out by linebreeding.

[lordkovacs]

I agree that there is a diff. between man made hybrids and genetic recessive line breeding. however, I think both are playing with the animals genes....

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Deffinitions of hybrids change to often.. Even dictionary deffinitions vary..

Mayr (1963) described hybridization as the
crossing of individuals belonging to two unlike natural populations that have secondarily
come into contact. (I.E. Breeder's)


Sibley (2000) Hybrids are the offspring of parents of two different species.
The offspring of parents of two different subspecies (of the same species) are know as
intergrades rather than hybrids.

Who to follow.. However since noone tends to agree on what constitutes a species ( Species change, ssp. change ) Making a former hybrid possibly a hybrid no longer, or into a different hybrid mixture.

Being said, I will stick to the simple Hybrids are a man's intervention and intergrades are a naturally occuring phenomenon deffinition. Matter of choice.
Xain

[Bryce Masuk]

Sorry a species
Is a an organism that cannot produce
fertile offspring with another species
So subspecies is correct or otherwise they are not different species

[Aaron_S]

Originally posted by Bryce Masuk
while people working with carpets (Imo The LEAST excepting of hybrids) understand the truth.


Really are they ALL that less excepting of them? Diamonds and jungles have been crossed countless times,IJ's and jungles, coastals and jungles. Jungles and green trees.
Also you say we are @#$%ed up if the lines are messed,with the constant inbreeding for better colour I would think we already are.

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Possibly when Sibley mentioned two different species he was claiming something like Elaphe guttata X Pituophis catenifer affinis. Which are two different species even if they dont belong to the same Genus... Or unless Elaphe emoryi and E. guttata are no longer a species of their own ( I know the whole Genus changed to something else but cant remember the name and whatknot) then the Elaphe guttata X Elaphe emoryi are two species and a hybrid. Surrporting Sibley's statement on "Hybrids are the offspring of parents of two different species."

If E. emoryi and E. guttata are no longer their own species, even in the new Genus, this surrports the "since noone tends to agree on what constitutes a species ( Species change, ssp. change ) Making a former hybrid possibly a hybrid no longer, or into a different hybrid mixture." statement.

Either way, people have their things. I prefer to keep mine "Pure"

[Bryce Masuk]

True but mostly newbie carpet owner's buy crosses because they want them as pets few are buying crosses to breed them and with carpet's it usually isnt hard to pick out crosses either The people I am talking about that dont except them are carpet breeders they wont even look at crosses

Name who is inbreeding for color if your so sure of it? inbreeding is a fast track to what you want. you have to kill many of the offspring in every clutch for a long time and you still end up with problems (look at albino boa's) dont waste your time with inbreeders I dont

[Jeff_Favelle]

ColonelSB, I have to disagree:

Looks at the B.c.i & B.c. complex how huch inbreeding and cross breeding has gone on in the last decade. Once the genetic waters are dirty they can never been clean again! No matter how much outcrossing you do!



Inbreeding has abolutely NOTHING to do with genetic water being "muddied" or outcrossed. In fact, if you want to keep an animal the most pure, inbreeding is your only option. I just want to make sure you are not thowing terms out there just to prove a point. Inbreeding keeps all the alleles and their frequencies in check. Whether that's a good/bad thing is another argument. But inbreeding DOES NOT, I repeat, DOES NOT dirty genetic "water".

[Jeff Hathaway]

Bryce,

The problem with defining things in biology is that there are always exceptions. It is now apparent that some things which are considered separate species, and even from different genera, can produce offspring which are, in fact, fertile.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Bryce Masuk]

I understand that Jeff They should stop trying to make things lock tight in biology because nature isnt lock tight