Do you have the ability to care for a 6+ feet Varanids…?

[Steeve B]

Pleas this thread is not to judge or condemn, I just want to know if you can care for a 6 feet monitor of any species.
The reason aim asking, my partner and I discussed the possibility to stop breeding a few species that we think are problematic as pet trade animals, amongst them are the famous Lace monitor we just started to work with and 3 localities Salvadorii, Ornatus, also black throat. We want to concentrate on all varanids except the big guys.
Rgds

[ReptiZone]

I can but I am a bit rusty nothing a few sessions with a adult speciman can't fix.

Hey I am in montreal now if you need a few hands at the shop I would love to do what I can. To contribute to the hobby. Pm me if you want my number.

[Tim and Julie B]

My personal opinion is that, true they aren't for everybody, but I still think that the species should be breed in captivity to insure that one the species has a solid captive breed foundation in the future to preserve these important reptiles. And second that there are still a few people dedicated to larger monitors and how are the next generation of reptile keepers ( The next Steeve and Mark B's) going to gain any knowledge or experiance if these reps become harder to find. If you truely want to stop unknowledgable people from getting those large monitors then make them knowledgable through education. Like say writing and publishing a book :D or something else to help people understand the commitment that it takes to keep one of these large reptiles. I truely believe that every reptile species in captivity diserves to breed for the future success of the animal and to preserve it for future generations. This is just my humble opinion Steeve but I hope it will give you something to think about! Take care as always, Tim B.

[Linds]

Not at this time I don't! I'm not a big person, and I do belive that you should never be working with such large species of lizard or snake without at least one other person around to assist if needed. I currently do not have anyone to assist me with such. I have worked with monitors as large as Black Throats alone, but only minor practices such as feeding... I wouldn't dream of trying to handle one with no other person present. That asides, I could not provide for a large monitor, or even a small or medium sized one (I dream of the day I have a Peach Throat in my collection.......). I do not have the space to dedicate to an adequate enclosure for even dwarfs right now, let alone large ones. As much as I want one, there will be none, large or small, in the near future for me (past and future work excluded, but none in my private collection).

[LadyHawke]

i have the space and the ability to care and work with large monitors......i am actually in the process of trying to find an asian water monitor, as i lost my baby due to unforeseen circumstances, but i do believe this is not a reptile for everyone, and would highly question someone's motives for getting one just to be sure its the right reasons

[burmer]

I agree with Tim, they are not for everyone. The one I have now is my first and it's a nile. I know that it's not the best choice for a first. But I am able to provide what he needs, and I am learning as I go. I would still like to see the large monitors for sale but in the large numbers that we see them today. I don't know if reducing how many are imported will change anything. I would also like to see them bred in captivity as well. Again I agree with Tim that there should be lots of education involved.

[Steeve B]

What your saying is important, and that’s the reason I started to work with endangered animals, Varanids are a small part of my work and aim learning every day about them, many are perhaps not as endangered as previously tot, for example none of the Australian varanids are rare in there habitat at least not any of the species offered in the pet trade this including Varius witch are a pest in there habitat. This is why we will probably never offer them.
Also many Indonesian species are quit common, except for a few species mainly Island forms none seems to be in peril, when we started working with Salvadorii the information we hade on there statue was critical, now we know they may very well be the one of the most plentiful Varanids in PNG, theirs even 4+ knew localities known to suppliers.

I don’t think it’s a question about experience with giant varanids, in the case of Salvadorii and Komodo I who’d say it’s a matter of common sense! I mean who who’d want to keep an animal they cant handle safely, yet every time photos of adult are displayed peoples want them anyway, even more so when hatchelling are shown, I have yet to see one person who don’t think they will tame them, a few assured me they who dent mind if the animal never becomes hand able, this makes me question myself, I cant imagine having an animal 40+ years that I cant be safe with.
However most species of Indo Varanids can be kept and cared for quit easily, those we label as problematic are Salvator (large form) Bengalensis and Salvadorii. I was offered CBB Komodo 5 years ago! And offered again the next year at a fraction of what I paid for many varanids, this offer made me realise just how silly the whole pet industry can be.

This hubby already suffered many legislation and banning of many species in some province, I never was a supplier of the Canadian pet trade, no dough I will become soon, butt I will not contribute to the diminish of this hobby buy supplying animals susceptible to bring new legislation among us, I think no monetary or any personal motivation can justify the supply of such animals.
Maybe aim very wrong about this hole concept, many will say it’s not my problem what peoples do with there animals, other will say it’s the one who buys it that’s responsible.

But for now aim the one who can supply 1000s of animals to the pet trade, and I take this matter very seriously, this why I who’d like every bodies view about this thread.

thanks all for your posts
Kind Regards

[Jeff_Favelle]

No, SteveB, you are RIGHT. And pretty much every TOP varanid breeder shares your thoughts. You are not alone and your ethics and values are commendable.

We're lucky to have you in our hobby. Lead the way partner!! :D

[Bryce Masuk]

Steeve I see waht your saying and the only hole in it is What about the people who want monitor's in the future and now that actually will care for them teh way they should be and are willing to get hammered a few times because they want to work with monitor's that much monitors need to licenced out and if they govenment wont do it train and get the people who plan to buy from you in with the adults and make sure they are able to care for them as well as they deserve to be treated anyway's if you wont provide CB animal's people will still get them out of the wild the people that are willing to pay the price premium cb has are willing to do what it takes to care for them
But other then that I agree not everyone should ever have a croc monitor but why punish those who should

[Steeve B]

That who’d be a good Idea! To train peoples with some of my monitors, this who’d give them a real view of what there in for. However I can’t because of insurance policies

I believe to any problem theirs a solution, someone on this forum must have a solution I haven’t tot about.
Also aim not interested in preventing anyone from keeping there dream animal, as far as aim concerned worst comes to worst the government who’d ban only the trouble species, but is this acceptable if it can be prevented. I am nobody to dictate what others may or may not keep, however aim fully aware of the frightening numbers of dog bite every year, still only a few make the news, why? Is it because animal products and affiliated industries generate so much profit, that informing the population who’d only be bad for business.
This is very sad facts when we all know; a simple varanids bite will make morning news and new legislation. REPTILES are and will always be (The book emissary) of the pet trade! Yes this is injustice, but I think varanids education isn’t all that’s needed for future Big Varanids owners; they also need social and legal advising.

Keep em coming guys!

Appreciated
Rgds

[NiagaraReptiles]

Originally posted by Steeve B
..... for example none of the Australian varanids are rare in there habitat at least not any of the species offered in the pet trade this including Varius witch are a pest in there habitat. This is why we will probably never offer them.

Does this mean your big plan of a blow out varius sale is off? I was really looking forward to that......


As for Australian monitors not needing captive conservation.....you don't feel that it is important to have established captive populations for zoos and private collectors around the world, primarily since they're not allowed out of Australia? You're right in that many species are quite abundant in thier natural range, but I fail to see how that makes them not important to keep and breed in captivity. Perhaps I've misread what you are saying, but that is what it came across to me as.

The rest of the world (outside Australia) would really miss out on the opportunity to work with some pretty amazing animals. I think Australian monitors are the best to have so readily available. Sure beats supporting the mass farming industry of African Varanids, or the over collectiong of many Indonesian species, both of which have extremely high mortality rates.

[Emily-Fisher]

I probably could take care of one if I had the space but I know that I wouldn't do a very good job. In fact, anyone can take care of one if they have the space, it's just a matter of how well they could do it. Not to offend anyone but in my opinion, a large amount of the members here on ssnakess, counting myself, are not even responsible enough to even consider buying a huge monitor like a savannah but they buy them anyways because they are inexpensive and because many people think that it's "cool" to have a big, bulky monitor. Still, the most irresponsible people are always the ones who think like that so instead of asking "Who has the ability to care for a huge varanid", you should ask 'Who is responsible enough to care for a huge varanid." And there are few who are.

[V.hb]

Steve, I couldn't agree with you more. I see what you're saying completely. The hobby needs more people like yourself to see the reality behind everything, and not become clouded by the money involved. It really is quite rediculous what the average "joe" can end up with as a pet, and its even more rediculous that an animal with the potential to grow to dangerous size is looked at as a potential calm, and placid "pet". I think to many people are lead to believe they are buying a PET when they purchase most varanids. It's one thing to recieve a bite from a V.beccari, and another thing to be bitten or even tail whipped! by a 6 foot salvator, or in some cases a large salvadori!

I hope you continue to enjoy the varanids you currently have, because you completely deserve it with all of the education and help you offer to pretty well anyone who needs it!
all the best

[Steeve B]

Does this mean your big plan of a blow out varius sale is off? I was really looking forward to that......

My intension was to offer them at reasonable price maybe 1000ea, but they turn out to be not so good captive, even my Ornatus make better captive.

As for Australian monitors not needing captive conservation.....

Captive breeding of varanids has nothing to do with conservation, if you wanted to have any kind of impact on conservation you’d need to farm them for the skin trade in very large numbers.

you don't feel that it is important to have established captive populations for zoos and private collectors around the world,

I don’t believe in Zoos I did support a few with rare animals and many died, there politic is take take but don’t give!
As for supplying collectors, no I don’t think it’s important, not when theirs more then 40 species available to them.

I think Australian monitors are the best to have so readily available.

I also think your varanids make excellent captive, perhaps the best, but I don’t inbreed any animal and all my varanids have CITES documents, do you really think Australian varanids where imported by mistake or they where imported 15 years ago when it supposedly wasn’t illegal to do so?
Just for your information, I was asked to confiscate all Australian Varanids including yours, and I refused to do so. Maybe this will never happen maybe it will as Australia never issued CITES for any of there Varanids other then a few Zoo animals, under the Australian laws, all illegitimate fauna is there property regardless of country its in, this is fully supported by CITES in every country they deserve.
I who’d love to keep one as a pet, but this single animal can lead to the confiscation of my entire collection, any CITES official will tell you!

Sure beats supporting the mass farming industry of African Varanids,

Theirs no such thin as farming in Africa, they collect gravid females and ranch them as they do in INDO.

Or the over collection of many Indonesian species, both of which have extremely high mortality rates.

Only 2-3% makes it to the pet trade, the rest is skin trade animals, the rest 97% that’s what I call high mortality rates.

Read Remond Hosser for more information.

[V.hb]

Steve, do captive bred populations of these animals fall into the same catagory of being property of australia?

[Steeve B]

YES...sorry!

[V.hb]

Do you have any documentation? i'd love to read it..

[markb]

Hi Steve, and All others,

This is a very interesting posting, and I have read it a few times - it has merit, but husbandry in the lower 48 states is a matter dealt with at local, county and state levels, in addition to federal laws guiding what can and cannot be imported/exported into USA. We all know many of these laws are a blanket law, and when something happens, such as when a boy is strangled by his pet boa constrictor, the laws are changed, ammended, etc...
The laws are set down usually as a reactionary response to some attention made to this reptiles, dogs, cats, ect that some (often stupid) politician has little knowledge of, and drafts/writes an ordinance into law - The library of Congress was originally designed to help ALL politicians gain the proper knowledge they required on any topic before making their political decisions - but now it all graft, greed and more greed....and it merges into the reptile pet trade like all of business'. (Yes, I despise politicians).

For people, who choose to buy a monitor, it is almost the same scenario, a reactionary response to something they saw on television, Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom, Survival, Wild Wild World of Animals, Crocodile Hunter, Mark O'Shea's Adventures, Jeff Corwin's Experiences, etc...or perhaps from a National Geographic or book on Australia....they see these majestic lizards and go out and buy one, two or three of them on a whimm, and often impulse....this is natural human behavior...for many they go to the internet and find out how to take care of it, for others, they do more homework, buy a few books, ask questions of forums, etc...and take on the new life living with varanids. Others, want to know everything about them, in the wild and in captivity via other keepers, and really "get into it" as it were....where most of us are now -

For beginners it may seem overwhelming when they ask a question and I post numerous references/listings, but in doing so it gives them 1) a source to start with, 2) an idea of whats going on regarding that topic, and 3) someone out there can help them get more more to compare and contrast information of wild/captive varanids....which sometimes instills in them to read more, and watch more more often of their animals and themselves too.

Those persons who purchase high dollar reptiles, dogs, (big-)cats, cars, etc...generally are very serious about the animals they keep and wish to learn and know as much as possible about said animal - and know the parameters of these animals and their abilities - like the boy scout motto - "be Prepared" and many advanced varanophiles go this route - learning more and more about their animals and comparing them to other varanids. We know some varanids do not do so well in captivity, some snakes, some lizards (crocodile lizards), but if there is success in keeping them, one can progress to breeding, longevity and so on with the animals in their care; some varanids do not "calm" down for long periods of time, years, and then one day they begin to become less wary of your presence, and then you are merely treated as a old log in their terraria, just another piece of the decor - but one they react with everyday, even if it is just sensing your feet steps meters sway out of eye-shot of you, but they know you are coming, and when you have that paper bag full of food, look out!

The varanids adapt to their captive environment as much as we do to their presence, and in time, whether it takes years, which it did with a male V. exanthematicus I had, they will begin to ignore you, except on the clock-time feeding time, and cleaning time when they watch your every move to see if you uncover some misbegotten food morcel, etc...both adapt, and in time, both keeper and kept let their guard a little (which is when 'accidents' often happen) and the keeper and kept live on a level of mutual benefit to one another and live accordingly. Obviously it is always the human who must take the greater part of the responsibility for the kept and keep conditons optimal - for reasons too numerous to say here, many keepers may become bored, life problems, etc...and the reptile may take a second or third seat rather than a first when optimal care is required....and carelessness increases, sometimes resulting in death of the animal, escape of the animal, and so on....to me observing varanids, keepers and so on for nearly 25 years now, it seems very consistant, and almost predictable....Im not a mathematician so don't hold me to latter statement!

If people are truly caring of the animals in their care, and I think most are, they can have larger varanids, including V. varius, V. salvator, V. niloticus, and so on, as long as they are responsible, careful, and don't take chances, i.e. hand feeding your varanid etc....this can be good for both parties there-of. I know many keepers who had had a few varanids then leaped to the BIG varanids, V. salvator with no problems what-so-ever, to this day they have large animals, and no problems and all are healthy. I think it has alot to do with the "Passion" one has for these animals, and this passion can carry you a long ways...and have a terrific experience with big and small varanids.

Not ALL people want to breed them, and is not in my opinion a signature of success - its nature's way of course, to pass on the good chromosomes - but in captivity other factors also enhance a quality of life for a captive - enhancement of their surroundings, which encourages behaviors such as hunting, foraging, seek and destroy (for food), thermoregulating, social interactions (for more social-based varanids), etc...watching a V. exanthematicus flip on its back and bite its rear leg in response to the V. salvator in a cage meters away is cool to see; to see V. albigularis rear on hind legs and arching their neck in swan-curve appearance in response to placing a road-kill venomace DOA/DOR roadkill into their terraria for food is a kick in the pants, to watch ritualized combat behavior where the female V. bengalensis is pushing the much larger male over onto his back at 03:00 am is a blast; to watch baby V. exanthematicus engage in combat behavior, courtship behavior is wonderful - seeing these things and more are further delights to the deposion of eggs and pipping of eggs, and I hope all of you see these and others unique behaviors in your monitors too - its amazing, and it gives their lives more to life than just living in a box....

We all know that most reptiles in the pet trade die off soon after arrival, and the 'apparent' healthy ones were not kept in horrific conditions long enough to severely affect their physiology, compared to those that die off soon after arrival, and more-so during transport. Stress kills.

I hope you continue your projects of breeding V. varius, V. ornatus, V. niloticus, etc Steve, and of course, If I can help further, Im there for you...you know how to find me....

Cheers,
markb

[Steeve B]

http://www.smuggled.com/goabur1.htm

I have about 4000 pages on animal trade and traffic alone,
I don’t wish to share these information, why shod I? This has nothing to do with my thread; however you can find some information from the above link.
Rgds

Ps. my reply to Jon was not to be inflammatory; it was merely to show my point
(Varanids education isn’t all that’s needed for future Big Varanids owners; they also need social and legal advising.)

[V.hb]

Thanks Steve.. I believe what you are saying, I just wanted to read more on it.. No need for anymore than that. Thanks.

[TK2]

Steve B wrote -
( I have about 4000 pages on animal trade and traffic alone,
I don’t wish to share these information, why shod I? )

Just a thought, but to help people not to do things illegally by mistake ? And, just curious, why not share it ?

[Steeve B]

Peoples doing illegal things is not my problem, if a friend ask my advising I will give him, 50% of my varanids research I keep to myself, because I consider it useless to hobbyist and some material I don’t post because it will only create more demand for varanids. Haven’t you noticed I deleted all photos that created demands, do you think I who’d do this if I was in for the$$. As I said many times before, aim very happy my third neighbour keeps leopard geckos and others ball pythons, I have no desire too see varanids on every corner, so I don’t promote them, I only share experience and try to help in there husbandry a little.
Don’t you think I already share enough? Why shod I do more? I already gave more then anyone on the net.

Rgds

[markb]

Hi TK2,

I have noticved that when you say, "Here is some information" and its free, they want more, always....but when you say, here is some information, and you have to pay the s/h costs, 50%-60% you never hear from again....everyone wants it for nothing, and those serious, you find out their passion is as genuine as their words and will pay a little bit for your xeroxing, postage, envelopes, gas, time etc....to those people, I have no problems with, for the others, it gets tiring throwing valuable time after time after time....and unlike the US government which seems to have an endless pit of money to throw at needless/wasteful projects, I cannot do this....its not worth it...we must choose to help those we can, and will (hopefully) get something back in exchange - I get information and some of it very interesting, and share with others too, but one must choose their battles, and can only do so much to help out, if and when they can....I for one have limited my time and energy to this, as the feedback has decreased significantly, and only help those persons who really are in need, or stuck, and if I can, I help them all I can, along witrh a core group of varanophiles who have only to ask and I will do anything they ask of me ..... some good friendships there....and that makes this stuff alot more fun....and as for the jackasses, well, they give the World gas, and cause the Coreolis Effect to spin faster....at least they're contributing something!

cheers,
markb

[TK2]

Hi Mark B.

Of course if you only have hard copy it makes it a lot more difficult and time consuming to help, and no one is obligated to help. I don't really get the US analogy but it doesn't matter as I agree most governments are wastefull.
At some point in time you would be repeating yourself and I can see it getting tiring. This is why I copy my responses, research material and studies to make up introductory information in areas where I try to help people. Not saying you have to but it makes it easier to help more often, less time consuming and doesn't get tiring then. I save these as different WORD documents so they are easy to email to people.
At the point you are at with your reptiles your right, you won't get as much back from a lot of people because they don't know as much and can't contribute as much or at all, yet.
And yes time is precious and I agree you must choose where you can and want to help the most.

Thanks for the reply,

TK2

[TK2]

Hi Steve,

If your above post was to me I don't understand the post so we can just let it slide. If the post wasn't for me ignore this response.

TK2

[markb]

TK2,
thats is a good idea about making word documents and stuff - I had not thought of that before! I will give this some thought. Boy, I like this forum!! :)

I hope I did not sound like an elitist or something, its just my time and energy are not my own nowadays, and when I have energy, I have to use it very judgementally.

I have finished a comprehensive Varanid bibliography, by author, on Varanus, heloderma, Lanthanotus, and these animals in Films (~150 pages w/some very "special" photos) too that I submitted for publication.

Thanks TK2!
mark

[Steeve B]

Obviously that’s the problem we have you don’t understand everything I write; I wish I could be more clear to you. Perhaps someday?
Rgds

[ectotherm]

Excellent topic Steve.
I shudder to think how this thread might play out on the "other" varanid forum. Even the disagreements here are at least civil.

I think most folks here would agree that the majority of individuals coming into the reptile hobby, who obtain potentially large monitors are virtually incapable of meeting their needs. If they are even aware of what those needs may be. The other sad but fundamental truth is; most of those hatchling niloticus, salvator, and exanthematicus that find themselves with new owners and housed in 40 gallon aquariums with a heat rock - will never achieve their potential adult size. They simply won't survive that long.

I've pointed out before that I do not currently own any varanids. Permits are required to own them legally. I do not currently have the permits, or means at my disposal to care for large monitors. (Although I am scheming). I can also tell you that many people in my state do own them - illegally.
I do think there is tremendous value in varanophiles maintaining and continuing to breed the larger species. If the need or motivation to breed them is for commercial purposes this is where things begin to break down into the scenario you have laid out. People obtaining potentially large and perhaps dangerous (in the case of salvadorii) animals, that are not equipped or prepared to deal with the adult form of that "cute little lizard" they take home. On another note, it must be somewhat frustrating from the breeders point of view to have succeeded in producing captive born stock - only to know that your successes are going out the door to someone who is likely incapable of properly caring for the animal.

Regardless of the species you choose to continue to work with, by all means, continue your work.

Regards,

Don M.

[V.hb]

Don, you're not the only one whos noticed how hostile varanid forums are.... whats with that??

[TK2]

Hi V.hb

I think a lot of the problem with the hostility is the communication form, typing back and forth. Makes it hard sometimes to be understood correctly when there is no inflection or tone like when you are speaking. People get the wrong impression, interpret something the wrong way or not the way it was intended.

[markb]

not to mention, some people are just plain JackAsses, egomaniacal filibusters, etc pure and simple.....that does not help either.....best way to get along with those types is avoid them like the Plague - Life is too short for those kind of people.

cheers,
markb

[V.hb]

Egomaniacal.. it's funny that people get that way when animals are involved..

[TK2]

What did you call me MarK ? ...lol

[markb]

HI TK,

I was not referring to you.....I do not hate my enemies for I am the one who made them, but I sure do despise them!

cheers,
markb

[TK2]

Just kidding Mark, have a good evning.

TK

[markb]

HI TK,

I am - I am woreking on an in-depth report on varanus in Indonesia this evening - I fear I have lost my Africa book, and will not be working on that, but rather a series of articles on them, maybe....my next articles out will be on V. prasinus complex and V. dumerilii...and maybe V. acanthurus and V. griseus caspius, if the latter two are accepted?

Cheers TK,
markb