badly deformed leo. Very sad.

[damzookeeper]

I had a leo born to soon and it's eye are not devoloped. It is a couple weeks old and it seems to be doing worse each day. It is very hyper when touched, but it does not eat on it's own and the eyes look terrible. It also does not look like the mouth is formed properly. The eyes seem like they are not formed and kind of black holes. It also has now started to get a soft lump on its head over one eye, I hate to think it is in pain and I want to put it down but I'm not sure what is the best way? should I do it myself or call in the vet, it is about 3 inches and 4 grams. Can someone help? I don't have any herp vets around here, closest one is over an hour away, but I think I am going to try to call a local vet and see if they can put it down for me tonight after work. Not sure if they will know anything about it or how to euthenize it. :( :confused:

[Samba]

I'm sorry to hear about your gecko. Non-reptilian vets can still euthanize your gecko. (This is simply an overdose of a medicine anyways). I would like to see some pics of this gecko, if it is not too late. Perhaps if you find a herp vet you can consult with him or her about the gecko. Sometimes they look worse than they are. Good Luck and keep us updated!

[drewlowe]

Personally i would freeze it. i had 2 babies born last year without eyes. After 3 weeks of them not eating at all i decied to put them to sleep. All you do is place them in a container and then put them in the freezer. They go to sleep then they are completely gone. It's simple and humane. I know it seems sad and cruel, i used to think it was but it's really not.

Sorry about the little one. It's something i know you really don't want to do. I'm again going through a deformity problem. i just recently had one hatch out that has one arm basicly stuck under his body and after less than a week it looks like it is going to fall off. I have to contenplate whether or not to put that one to sleep also.

[eyespy]

Freezing is very painful to reptiles, they are unable to move or respond but they can still feel. Back in the dark ages they used to put reptiles in the refrigerator to immobilize them before surgery and we've since found that their cortisol and pain levels were through the roof.

Blood studies of cortisol before and after freezing show similar results, they feel the pain and the cold, but are unable to do anything about it as their bodies become torpid.

[drewlowe]

wow i'm sorry i didn't know all that. I was told by several breeders and 2 vets that it was more humane than euthanizing. That makes me feel absolutly horrible that i did it now.

[Samba]

I think the most humane way to end an animals life is to gas it. They say the gas puts them to sleep, and then their bodily functions slow down and eventually stop. I think freezing is aweful! Anyone who has a heart wouldn't do that. It seems to me that freezing is a 'cost-effective' way to euthanize animals for people who don't want to pay for the vet to do it 'right'. Most often they do not care or concern themselves with the suffering an animal has to go through before dying. Disgusting.

[drewlowe]

My reasoning wasn't cost effective at all i would spend the money no questions asked. The reason i did it was because i was told by "several" people that is was better than euthanising reptiles. If i would have known what eyespy just said I would have NEVER in a million years done it. It makes me feel absolutly horrible knowing i put them through more pain.

The way freezing was explained to me:
They go to sleep then they never wake up. And it's completely painless. this is basicly the way everyone i talked to explained it.

and as i said if i would have known that wasn't true i would have NEVER done it.

[CDN-Cresties]

Sorry about your baby gecko, my condolences :(


-Steve-

[Siretsap]

Until there is a scientific study proving that reptiles have feelings, I am not in agreement with eyespy. Lizards act on instinct not with sentiments. A reptile can burn itself to death without knowing it. How many times have people seen their reptiles burn on a heatrock or heatpad?
I freeze my dying reptiles since they are cold blodded. Freezing them does not hurt, their system slows down till the point where the heart gives up. It's just as humane as gas. The reptile will go into his hibernation cycle so he doesn't feel some pain!

[damzookeeper]

Hi, thanks for all the replies. Samba, I took some pics for you (and anyone else interested in seeing her deformities) tonight and put them up on a page, since I took a dozen it was easier to post a page instead of all the pictures. You can see it is quite bad. I am waiting to hear back from a friend who said he knows a vet in a near by town that helps him with his herps on occasion. She is by far a herp vet but she tries her best so I'd rather go to her than just anyone if I have a choise. But I'm going to call a couple others and see what they have to say about it.
I don't want to wait too long if she is suffering, although she doesn't seem to be in any pain, she doesn't cry or isn't lithargic or anything but God only knows how this little girl feels. I feel so bad for her. :( I think the best thing would be to put her down. I will keep you all posted.

Here are the pictures of my "little angel".

deformed baby (http://www.reptilerascals.com/dbaby.html)

[MartinW]

Poor little girl:( Let us know what happens. I feel bad enough worrying about my baby girl not eating enough, you must feel terrible.

Martin

[Gregg M]

I would just do it myself...... I dont hink I would do the freezer thing but a quick snap of the neck and its all over....... It is a tough thing to do to a pet but it may be better off....... Sorry about your gecko.......

[eyespy]

Siretsap, there have been a lot of studies done on pain and pain management in reptiles, RA Bennett has practically based a career on it. It's to the point now that veterinarians in many states in the US risk points against their license for advocating freezing or withholding anesthesia during surgery.

Here's a link with a decent bibliography on pain perception and management for reptilian medicine:

http://www.anapsid.org/herppainbiblio.html

[fanmaninacan]

I agree with gregg......NO pain...It wont die slow.....sounds awful but think about it...

T.P

[damzookeeper]

Thanks for the suggestion Gregg but I just couldn't bring myself to do something like that unless it was dire needs (on the spot, I know there is pain, has to be put down right now! situation). And even then I would feel bad for a long time afterwards. I made an appointment for the little girl to be euthenized (hope I'm spelling that right, not an everyday spelling word, thank God!) But anyway, the crappy part is that I couldn't get an appointment till Wednesday because the vets are out of town till then. If I wanted anything before I would have to travel 45 minutes out of town and hope they can "fit me in". Got to love small town vets, don't cha?! So anyway, She will be put to sleep on Wednesday, also they aren't equipt for the gas so it will be an ingection and she said it takes a bit longer than the gas but they will not be in any pain, and will go to sleep. It doesn't cost that much eithor, for those interested. It is under $20 and she said if they had the gas as well it would be about double the cost, which still isn't all that bad for piece of mind.
I'm going to hate to see this little girl go after feeding her daily for about 2 weeks now, but I know she will be better off. :(

http://www.reptilerascals.com/2003-07-21dbaby08.jpg

[Linds]

Gassing reptiles can take a while since they have very shallow respiratory systems...

Poor girl, too bad she didn't make it. Wish all of them could make it, but ya win some ya lose some :( Sorry for your loss, and sorry for her pain.... :(

[Clownfishie]

Poor little thing :( That's so sad...

[bob_thesnowman]

i'm sorry for your loss,i can't even imagine how you must feel..

[Samba]

Jaime - It's okay, I believe you! I'm mad at whomever told you it was okay to freeze reptiles! How on Earth could they be so cruel?

Damzookeeper - The baby looks so cute, even with her deformities. It's okay to put her to sleep, but you will never know if she will be able to go on and live a 'normal' life without trying. She is definately unique looking. Thanks for the pics, this gives those that are curious, (such as myself) the oppertunity to see these deformities first hand. I see a lot of strange things in reptiles, but deformities are rare, as most specimens are put down or don't survive. Good Luck with whatever decision you make. =)

[Sean_.E.]

I am sorry for your loss. I hope that she can be put to sleep in the least painful way!

[Pixie]

Samba: Although I share your opinion that inflicting any unnecessary pain on a living creature is horrible I find that you can sometimes appear to be quite abrupt in your judgements.

I seriously doubt that anyone would choose to freeze a reptile knowing that it causes such suffering for them. Why call them discusting when they are doing it because they "think" it's the good way. If they were doing it intentionally then I would totally understand your discust but it is done very much so out of ignorance...

Pixie

[damzookeeper]

Originally posted by Samba
Jaime - It's okay, I believe you! I'm mad at whomever told you it was okay to freeze reptiles! How on Earth could they be so cruel?

Damzookeeper - The baby looks so cute, even with her deformities. It's okay to put her to sleep, but you will never know if she will be able to go on and live a 'normal' life without trying. She is definately unique looking. Thanks for the pics, this gives those that are curious, (such as myself) the oppertunity to see these deformities first hand. I see a lot of strange things in reptiles, but deformities are rare, as most specimens are put down or don't survive. Good Luck with whatever decision you make. =)

Samba, I hate to put this little girl down but I seriously think it is the best thing for her. I can not tell if she is in pain, and it would kill me to know that she went through life in pain every day. The bump above her eye just came out a couple days ago and I don't know what it is or how it is affecting her. It is very soft and I'm not sure if it is internal bleeding, an infection or God knows what else, I assume it has something to do with the eye problem. Not knowing if she is in pain and thinking she must be in at least some is what is forcing me to put her down. I have another baby that was also born earlie and is a month old and still hand feeding, but other than that everything with this girl seems fine. She will not be put down unless something happens that is visual that tells me something else is wrong with her.

Thank you everyone for your concerns. I will keep you posted on her vet visit tomorrow night. :(

[Siretsap]

Eyespy,
I checked your link for the herp pain.
They are theories and most have little or nothing to do with the reptile feeling pain.
http://www.anapsid.org/herppainbiblio.html

Tell me this, how come if a reptile feels pain, they will stay on a heat rock and burn sevirly to the point of putting them down??? You don't see the reptile getting off the heat rock as soon as he starts burning?! That is because they do not percept the pain as we do. Thus freezind a reptile is not painfull. It makes him start hibernation and he doesn't feel the cold cause he is cold blodded, his system (brain that only acts on instinct, and thermoregulation) just slows down till the hart gives up.

You think haveing then injected with powerfull medication will make them die easier?????? freezing is the better way to go cost effective, and just as "painfull" as any other decent method.

Snapping the neck might work just like it does with rats, but you better get it right the 1st time.

[Samba]

Pixie - I would think that the fact that freezing causes pain is just a matter of common sense. Humans don't like to be too cold, and avalanche survivors tell of the horrible pain they feel when the blood begins to crystalize in their extremeties (frostbite). Why wouldn't reptiles also feel this pain?

True, people who have, and who will freeze their reptiles are only trying to do what is best for them (in their own minds, of course). I stand by my previous comments without apology. If they truely wanted what was best for their animals, they would have a licensed professional euthanize the animal humanely. I would not, and could not, ever preform a function such as this on my own.

As an added note, I called no one 'disgusting.' That word referred to the act itself, and no one in particular. I realize you may not be the only person who believes that I am 'abrupt' so if I've offended anyone please know that is not my intent. If people are so ignorant as to not realize the additional torture they will have caused these defensless pets then I would move to say they shouldn't have pets in the first place.

Damzookeeper - I stand by your choice. In the long run it is probably for the best; but I can't help wanting her to recover instead. After all, I've run a reptile rescue for the past 7 yrs. it's what I do! If your gecko is in pain, (and I wonder from what?) do what is right. Not all deformed animals are doomed to have their lives prematurely ended. If she will not be able to function on her own and feed herself, it is sad to say that she would not recover in the wild either. This is a difficult decision either way, and I hope I will never have to be in your shoes. Good Luck!

Siretsap - I am disappointed in your beliefs; I must say I disagree with you 100%. In the instances above, I have not heard of a documented case of an animal being burned so severely without there being underlying causes. Reptiles MUST feel pain because it is a defense mechanisim. Reptiles know how to thermoregulate in the first place because of an onslaught of discomfort or pain.

Let me explain; reptiles, both captive and wild reptiles know how and when to thermoregulate because they can sense when they are getting too warm. They may sense this as pain or discomfort. They aren't consciously aware that death will follow if they don't move. If reptiles did not feel pain, it's a good guess that many would not thermoregulate as well; this, in turn, would lead to the demise of the species.

Animals that hibernate, I believe, are most often mammals. When these animals hibernate they do not become frozen, they become dormant, and many maintain a body temperature just below what is normal for them. Reptiles that hibernate also become dormant and do not freeze. A certain level of warmth is required for their survival. Not all reptiles hibernate, therefore it's unfair for you to make such uneducated generalizations.

Lastly, GAS. This is how gas works on most animals and people: When inhaled at small, non-lethal amounts, the gas causes drowsiness and unconciousness in humans and animals alike. Veterinarians have used gases with little ill effect on their patients for many years. It was discovered early on, however, that an overdose of gas would cause the patient's respiratory system to slowly fail. Following this is the heart; without oxygen the heart will fail, and eventually so will the rest of the organs. Injections often work the same way. We know this is painless because patients who recover from the non-lethal doses often have no more problems than a 'hang-over' type of feeling. You are wrong in stating that gases and injections are just as painful as "any other decent method."

As for snapping the neck, I also believe this is an excuse for people who are too cheap to have their animals euthanized humanely. Anyone attempting this might also be guilty of animal cruelty and neglect. Unfortunately, these practices are rarely observed and evidenced enough for proper prosecution. I am a strong believer in doing the best for your pets, that you supposedly love and adore so much, and if that means spending a few extra bucks making sure they are not suffering anymore then so be it. If an owner is not willing to put this kind of care and effort into their pet's deaths I would also be inclined to believe they are also equally inept at caring for the animals in life.

[lilyskip]

I'm sorry to hear about your leo, damzoo...good luck tomorrow :(