cal king q's

[RaVeNo888o]

hey guys, i have a few q's

k, my cal king is about 1 year 7months. He is about 2 feet long. I was wondering if this is normal for this age. To me it look small but it might be becuase he has a small 'stature' ..hes skinny but not 'skin and bones' if you know what i mean. I feed him a fuzzy once a week. thanks for any input

[Andy_G]

Way too small for his age in my opinion. Feed it something bigger than fuzzies, thats an extremely small prey item for a snake over a year old!

My yearling albino cal king is 30 inches long and on 2 hoppers/ one small adult mouse per feeding.

[Invictus]

I agree that the prey item is way too small. 2 feet long is plenty big enough to be feeding it adult mice.

[RaVeNo888o]

that is what i feared..thanks..i was feeding it fuzzies because of the rule about gerth of pray. so i should move up to hoppers? how long should it take before i see some growth, and how large should i expect him to be at this age..thanks for your help guys (should i possibly feed him a little more than once a week? say every 5 days?)

[Andy_G]

The rule is not the same girth with prey items for colubrids, it can be up to 1.5-2 times the girth of the snake depending on the specie. Usually if the prey item is too big, the snake just won't eat it. Sounds very small for it's age, but get it on 2 hoppers every 7 days and you should see a bit of growth. Once it's eaten two hoppers 3 or 4 times without fail, move it up to properly sized adult mice.

[RaVeNo888o]

ya, the fuzzies i was getting were on the large side for a fuzzie and were probably about 1.5 the width of his head. I will do the 2 hoppers a week thing that you suggested. At that rate of feeding, i take it that i should refrain from handling him for the first month or so while he gets used to the changes, correct?

overall the health seems good, other than the size. Hes isnt boney or anything and has good skin but im glad i asked about the size, ive seen pics of all these large corn and kings.
Thanks again for the help, much appreciated

[Andy_G]

I would say that if he is going to regurgitate his food he will do so within 48 hours after it is consumed. I don't think you need to handle him any less than what you are now, but maybe for the first feeding keep off of him for four days instead of two, just in case.

[RaVeNo888o]

ok..i bought eight hoppers today, but i had to go to my dads for a few days so i should be able to feed him wed (last fed him thurs)
once those hoppers are done, should i automatically switch to adults as mentioned or are there any signs i should look for that may change that plan (other than the obvious regurgitation)?

[snkmn]

i concur feed him an adult mouse that is what i do for my 2-foot ball python and he is only 9 months

[RaVeNo888o]

Well thanks for your help andy. I fed him today. He took the first hopper and squeezed it for about 20 min before he finally managed to find the tip of the nose. Once he started swallowing it took about 25 min to get all the way to his stomach. He had trouble getting past the initial width of the head but after that it was all good.
i then offered the second and he didnt hesitate to strike. He coiled around this one but this time for about 50 min!. he folded the mouse in half almost and then was dragging it around his tank by the ear doing barrel rolls (it was quit amusing) He finally started to swallow it. located the nose alot quicker this time and had no real trouble with this one. hes now basking in the heat and all seems to have gone well..ill keep you updated..thanks again for your help

[reverendsterlin]

heck one of my colubrids, a corn neo, took a fuzzy for it's 4th meal. Most of mine are on adult mice by 5-6 months of age.

[RaVeNo888o]

ya, i know. i was feeding him too small items, im kinda mad at myself because i should know better. He did go about a month without eating in the winter though. Hopefully all is well now.

[Andy_G]

I actually crush the skull of most of my snake's food items, seems easier for them to swallow.

Usually when the prey item gets bigger, no matter whether they're ready for it or not, the first food item of that size seems to give them a lot of trouble, this is ebcause they do not know how to manipulate the food properly the first time around, but they do the second.

[RaVeNo888o]

yep i figured that..How do you crush the skull? just use ur fingers? That would have helped because it was the 2 bumps behind the mouse ears that gave him trouble, and then a bit on teh shoulders. It was amazing how repsonsice he was to the second condering he had the biggest meal hed had in his belly. he snapped at it real fast.

[Andy_G]

I just use my fingers to crush the skulls, not a lot of people i've met regularly do this but it definitely does help them get the food down quicker, by no means is this skull crushing necessary though.

[RaVeNo888o]

hmm, i might try that next time to help him out a bit, but then not after that as i want him to be able to down the adults soon.
do you squeeze horizontally or vertically? is it rather easy? how much do i squeeze i dont wanna pop the eyeballs out lol

[RaVeNo888o]

How long should it take him to digest the 2 hoppers?
i checked this morning and he was still a bit fat, but the bulge wasnt so obvious. the skin is still stretched so that you can see the skin between the 'scales' ..He did defecate though so he is digesting, just wondering how long it should take.thxs

[Andy_G]

Can take anywhere from 2-6 or 7 days, depending on what temp the hot spot is.

I crush the skulls by squeezing vertically. You won't need to squeeze too hard, you will feel the cranium give way. It's VERY easy.

[RaVeNo888o]

Ok, thanks once again andy, its been 3 days and i just increased the temp this morning because it was low 80's. now up to about 85, i just put in 60W instead of 40W

[Andy_G]

Sounds good. At 85 degrees, it will probably fully digest in 4 days and then have a few poops.

[Stalabros]

One suggestion, I have a Female CalKing, she is about 40 inches long and about the same age as yours, when she reached about 24" I started feeding her rat pinkies, and followed that by rat pups when she reached 30" long. I noticed a huge growth spurt in her when I changed over to rats. I think that there is more meat on a rat pinkie then there is on a mouse (a lot of it is hair).

http://home.cogeco.ca/~reptile/130-3047_IMG.JPG

[Andy_G]

There is more fat on a rat pinkie than there is on an adult mouse, much more fat and much less protein.

[Vanan]

Andy, dya have any numbers backing that? :) Cos it seems kinda odd that a snake would grow (in length) faster while on rats than mice, if what you're saying is true. More fats means a fatter snake, not a longer one. Also the Nutritional analysis between the two is uneven as most rat pinks (1-2day olds) are smaller than adult mice.

Is there anyone out there with numbers? :)

[Ace]

I found this surfing around....it's in PDF format so you need an Acrobat reader to veiw it. If you go down to page 9 it starts listing all the stats for each animal. It lists domestic mice, so I'm not sure if that would be the same as a lab mouse? Anyway here's the link Nutrient Composition of Whole Vertebrate Prey (http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholePreyFinal02May29.pdf )

[KingJaff]

Apart from the fat issue, it dosent matter what size food item u feed as long as its not to big.. I recomend feeding him as oftern as possible, every 4-5 days (with smaller prey items if nessisary) as u say he probably wont get fat for a good 5 months or so, also i'd handle him more...
When i got my Cal king he was very under sized for his age, about 36" three and a bit feet and he was around six years old and was shedding his skin about 3 times a year, when i decided to buy some calcium and vitamin spays and started to put them on his Mice.... and BAM he had a growth spurt started to shed every month, so I stoped the suplements and I started to handle him more and also started to feed him Hampsters, small Rats (40-60 grams) and chicks, this was 9 months ago and he hasnt slowed down at all yet, it looks like he might reach full size after all. Strange dont ya think???

[Andy_G]

Vanan, if you look around on I think the food for thought forum, the numbers were posted there a while ago. It basically stated that adult mice are higher in protein and lower in fat than rat pinkies/fuzzies/pups, but once you get to weanlings, they have more developed bones and muscle, so there is more protein in them, but no matter what size rat it is, there is always more fat. I'm tired so if you can't make sense of this tell me and i'll try again tomorrow lol.

[snakemann87]

Ya I think I fed my hatchling corn snake that was 18'' fuzzys.......he loved them

[RaVeNo888o]

I fed him his second meal of 2 hoppers last night, he took them alot easier. Both last time and this time, he spends alot of time in his water dish soaking, after the feeding. Im not concerned about this, but is there a reason he does this? it in the middle, not on the cool, not on the hot side. Does this help digestion or something? Do your guys do it?

[Andy_G]

I would think that it soothes any strain that the snake's skin is under after eating...just my guess though.

[jwsporty]

Andy,
although your statement on the fat content difference between an adult mouse and a rat pinky is accurate the differences as shown in the link you provided show a difference of .1%

Adult mouse >10gr 23.6 %
Rat Pinky ,10 gr 23.7 %

with an 10-50 gr. rat hitting 27.5%

I think the real issue isn't so much the fat content as it is the volume. Of course the vitamins & trace mineral elements are also important and need to be present for good growth and health, building fat stores in the snake is not a bad thing. They will expend the energy as needed and they will store the fat to carry them through the hibernation period. I have both rats and mice on the menu and have tried to adopt a policy of making both available to every snake at feeding time. Ultimately the snake will dictate how much he/she wants to eats. I have had some of my guys openly accept up to four assorted food items and not necessarily always the same size. And others that decided they only wanted one item. And then have them change the number of prey items they take in in following weeks. A heavy eater one week might be light for the next week or two, or he may just stay as a heavy eater. All are healthy, with no signs of obesity (scale distention, lumpiness, etc..) and their poops are consistent (normally 4 days after consumption) and relatively low odour, which tells me that they are absorbing the nutrient value of the prey they were given. I do not consider this power feeding as they are offered on a 5-7 day schedule. I would rather make the food available and then let them decide. Not only that, but by offering the varied menu it gives me a chance to offer mice if I am out of stock of rats, and vice versa. As I breed both mices and rats for my babies, I generally don't worry about the economic issue, just the availability issue. Some times I get a little out of sync with my food stocks and then I have to resort to buying, but I still prefer to feed them with food I have grown. Well there's my two bits...;)

Jim

[KingJaff]

He could be in the bowl because of mites so watch out for them! (ha ha not in england LOLLOLLOL). but snakes occasionally like a bath!:)

[RaVeNo888o]

i don't think its mites, because ive never seen signs of them, and he just started this when i started him on 2 hoppers, instead of one large fuzzy, so i bet the stressed skin thing is right.
He was in the water for 48 hours after eating, but now has come out and done a huge bit of business in the corner, plastered to the glass lol

[RaVeNo888o]

Well just an update for u guys. He took his first adult mouse, no real trouble. His belly is like 2 times its normal girth, its nuts, i think he will grow pretty nicely on a diet like this. thanks for ur guys help with the matter

[Will]

If you don't think he can take 2 hoppers at once, try one hopper every 3-4 days instead . Smaller meals are digested more efficiently and you may get a bit more growth out of him if you try that.

[BrandonVeenstra]

Mines just over 2 years old and eating one full grown mouse every 6 days. Hes around 4 ft and didnt eat for 6 months last year...

[RaVeNo888o]

hey thanks guys...i dont think you saw my update post, but hes on adults now and doing fine :) he was a pet shop snake, when i bought him he was 8 months old and about the size of a 1 or 2 month old hatchling, plus he went off feed a few months, so hes just over 2 feet, but i think he will shoot up now that hes on one adult/week

[KingFfaj]

next time you buy some food, get some rat fuzzies (bout 20-30 g)
as thi will increase his vitamin intake cosiderably, you could also give a supplement for a short period as this really seemed to help my cali to start shedding every month. And its been 3 months since I last said that, and he STILL hasnt missed a shed. Hes shed 7-8 times since i started feeding rats,hampsters and chicks;) give it a go and watch him grow;);)
How many sheds has he had since you started this thread?

[RaVeNo888o]

its been two sheds for sure, possibly 3, coulda shed way back when i first posted. I am planning on using the calcium supplement i have that i use for my crestie. The Bone Aid stuff by trex. . I will also do the rat pup idea, i will be buying rats soon since i am getting an IJCP so i will start the king on rats as well, so i only have to buy one food type. thanks for the suggestions

[KingFfaj]

its no extra hassel, picking up rats and mice from a shop.
My thinking was that by feeding both you give a wider range of vitamins