Breeding concern!!!

[TribalGecko]

Hi there

just have a concern about my female dragon. 15 days ago she suprised me by laying a clutch of eggs. I gave her a nesting bucket and she layed them within 20 minutes. I put her back into her cage with her mate. Well now 15 days later she is full of eggs again and has been digging and digging in her substrate for 2 days. I put her back into the nesting bucket and she has just dug a nice burrow and has backed into it. She has been sitting inside it for about 20 minutes now. My concern is this: is she actually laying the eggs now or just digging and burrowing getting ready? I am very worried that 15 days is way too early to lay another clutch. Should I leave her in the bucket with her burrow or put her back in her cage? She is in peak condition but I am very worried that laying eggs so soon will hurt her. I thought that it took around 4 weeks for a clutch to develope. I don't know if I should leave her in the bucket or put her in the cage. Also, should I seperate her from her mate for awhile? Thanx very any advice! Kim

[drewlowe]

I'm not 100% sure as this is my first year breeding. But i would think it's too early for her to be ready to lay. If she wants the nesting box i would let her stay in it. I think it would help so she doesnt stress to hard. I would wait for someone else to see what they had to say though.

[TribalGecko]

Well now she is filling in the burrow and all the eggs that I was able to palpate in her belly earlier are now gone. She laid them. Can these eggs be any good? Is it possible to lay clutches only 15 days apart?

[drewlowe]

my female beardie went about 25 days then laid her a clutch. but the first 2 were no good then the 3rd clutch were perfect.

I myself would put the eggs in an incubator and see what happens you will never know until you try.

[TribalGecko]

She laid 24 eggs all together, 5 of them are dented and squishy feeling so they are probably no good. This is by no means the first few clutches for her. The previous owner used to find eggs in the cage all the time and would just throw them away:eek:
I candled her first clutch and they all had blood vessels. Doesn't that mean they are fertile? This is all so new to me, I just want her to stay healthy!

[drewlowe]

if it has veins it's most likely fertile. If she is continuly house with a male then there is always going to be a stress factor. (which i house my male and female together but i am making plans to seperate them) Plus housing them together they can breed anytime.

I would keep all the eggs until you knew for sure they were no good.

[drewlowe]

Oh and make sure to always give her a nesting box. Not having one can cause unneeded stress and can have a cause in egg binding.

[TribalGecko]

Thanx for all the info. I do always have the nesting bucket handy and I put her in whenever she feels the need to dig. She laid more eggs this time then the last time. She must be an old pro by now. After she was done she ran right over and devoured a plate of veggies. I guess she worked up a appetite....haha.

[TribalGecko]

Well here it is now 15 days after the last time I posted about her laying a second clutch so soon and as I type she is in the bucket laying her third clutch since I got her last month! I am a bit concerned. Can she be hurting herself? I just got a second female to take the pressure off of her (see my post on my new MEAN MEAN MEAN bearded) hopefully since I don't have a spare tank suitable for her to be in by herself.

[eyespy]

Actually, having another female around can sometimes cause a "good egger" to ovulate more frequently. There are more pheromones in the air, which causes all the animals to respond accordingly. It can put more stress on her, not less.

Separating is still your best bet so she doesn't overlay and become weak and nutrient-deficient. You might also want to cut back her daylight hours to 10 a day to shut off the ovulation triggers. DON'T lower temperatures because if she is growing another clutch of eggs the risk of eggbinding goes way up at lower temps. Just get a rubbermaid bin to use as a hospital tank and get her the heck out of Dodge! Those multiple clutches have probably already taken a year or two off her lifespan and you sure don't want this trend to continue.

The "record" I've seen for time between 2 fertile clutches is 11 days. Anyhow, whether the clutches are fertile or not, they still put the same amount of stress on your girl's body.

[TribalGecko]

Is this the mating season for beardies or will they do this all winter too? I have replaced the day bulb with a night bulb (for warmth) to lessen the "daylight" hours to only natural light coming in but it didn't seem to have a effect on her. I suspect she is already brewing another batch of eggs. I saw the male grab her neck the other day but she shook him off. I guess I am going to have to seperate her but for how long? I am afraid she will be unhappy by herself...she really loves her mate (if that is possible).

[eyespy]

Beardies in captivity don't seem to have a hard and fast breeding season, I've seen girls lay eggs all year long, although late spring through summer do produce most of the clutches. In January my Monet woke herself up from brumating to lay a clutch of eggs and then went back to sleep for another 5 weeks so anything's possible.

Those night bulbs can still affect day/night cycle because it's not just visible light that triggers those sorts of things. Beardies use the bony armor plating in their backs to absorb UV and infrared and even though they can't "see" those nighttime bulbs they are still storing radiant energy from them. It's best to just skip the bulbs entirely. Nighttime temperature drops are part of a beardie's natural environment and they really don't need heat at night unless cage temps fall below 50 degrees.

It's a rare female that doesn't do better caged away from males, so try it and see. I've only known 3 females that needed to get a "roomie" after being separated from their mates and I've rehabbed over 20,000 animals. Most become more active, regain lost weight, and have better appetites once they don't have to submit to the male.

[TribalGecko]

Well now I have a real problem! That mean "female" I bought must be a male because I just saw "her" jump on my female and do the male head bob. I can't believe my bad luck. He looks like a female and I was told that he was a female but maybe he is just a prissy looking male. I will have to get rid of him AND find her a new tank. Two males can't stay together can they? Urgh!!!! Also do you have to brumate them and if so, what is the best way to do that?

[eyespy]

Aggressive females will sometimes simulate mating as a way to dominate a subordinate female so unless you see hemipenes don't take that activity as a sure sign "she's" a "he". ;)

Two males staying together is risky, but so is keeping two females together if one is that aggressive. She can be just as likely to become territorial as a male and I've seen some horrible mutilations and deaths occur in those situations.

No, you don't have to brumate but when you've got a girl that's consistently laying clutches it's not a bad idea to give her body time to regenerate her nutrient reserves and rebuild body tissues that have been broken down to fuel her gestation period.

If you choose to brumate, the best way to do it is to totally eliminate natural sunlight from entering the room so they have no natural daylight triggers, cool the cage down gradually to 70 degrees or lower, gradually reduce their lights on time to 8 hours of daylight, and turn out the lights altogether once they go to sleep. Wake them up every 10 to 14 days to offer them water so they won't dehydrate but otherwise just let them alone for a month or so.

[TribalGecko]

Okay after carefully examination of all three vents (eek) we have determined that the mean beardie is a female, but a dominate, very aggressive one. I have seperated the egg layer into a "rest cage" and now the male and the meanie (who tolerated the handling rather well actually) are alone together. They are competing for the prime basking spot but no blows have been dealt. So far the male has exerted his dominence. Its weird but that female has both male and female characteristics. The head looks male but she has the larger side pads, tiny femoral pores and a tiny vent. Could she have some kind of hormonal or genetic problem?

[eyespy]

What you are describing is actually a fairly common result of overcrowding stress, it's a hormonal imbalance that causes females to act that way, but the underlying cause is usually high stress levels. Once a female is sexually mature she wants a certain amount of turf that's all her own as a potential nest site. If she doesn't have that her aggression levels will rise and she will often take on male behavior patterns. Removing the other girl means less competition for nesting sites but won't totally remove the stress as the male will still assert his dominance over her so she can't lay claim to any turf of her own.

The aggressive girls will often "feminize" once caged alone so that they can feel secure in their own territory.

[TribalGecko]

Well I have her and the male in a 55 gallon tank. Isn't that enough room for the two? The egg layer is gone and they seemed to have settled down. The male took the highest basking point and the female is in the heated cave. I don't know what kind of setup she came from but she was much meaner and freaked out at the show and when we first brought her home. I was really hoping to have a trio together but maybe I will just keep one female apart for awhile.

[eyespy]

Not for those two from the sounds of their behavior. There's enough stress going on to significantly shorten the female's lifespan. Most folks who sucessfully keep groups of beardies use cages the size of a room, literally. A 55 gallon isn't sufficient cage space for an adult male in my opinion, let alone a pair. I've seen plenty of male dragons suffering overcrowding stress and even nerve damage to the tail base from cages that small.

[TribalGecko]

Wow, I have read from several sources thus far that a 55 gallon tank is sufficient. If it is too small then they will have to wait until I can build a custom cage. They seem to be doing fine right now, all tucked in for the night. Taking out one of the females seems to have settled the others right down. I wish I lived in a warm southern climate where I could have outdoor enclosures like at Agama International.

[TribalGecko]

Update on the mean beardie! Thank you so much for your advice! I took the egg layer out for a few days. Right after that, the "meanie" female attached herself to the male and followed him all over the tank. The next day he bred with her (very immodestly I should say..haha) and she just loves him to death! She is so sweet and docile, I can't believe it is the same beardie. She love to be held and petted and will eat out of our hands. I reintroduced the original female back into the tank and they are getting along wonderfully, no fighting, no shows of dominance or anything. They all hang out together, eat and sleep together. I can't believe this is working out so well. We are in the process of building a new cage, I hope that won't mess up the harmony!

[eyespy]

TribalGecko, right now the aggression levels are probably low because of the recent mating. Once hormone levels have cycled back up to mating urges once more the entire cycle can start up all over again. Unlike humans, the females can often wait days or weeks before the hormones cycle up again but the males are often ready to go 10 minutes later. ;)

Most of the folks I've known who've tried group enclosures have since split them up because it's such a delicate balance to keep all the raging hormones from turning into either aggressive or depressive tendencies and causing undue stress on the group.

[TribalGecko]

I guess I will see what happens. I really wanted to have a trio so I could watch the social interaction but not if they are all going to start PMSing all the time. I had put the egg layer in a tank I had with a uromastyx because I had no other place at the time and they really got along great together. I guess I could put her there temporarily.

[eyespy]

No, no, no!!! Uros and beardies have very different gut flora and the egg-layer has a vent area that's lost a lot of its protective mucus from laying eggs so she's much more vulnerable to infections or parasites. Never, ever mix species, and especially when gravid females or recent layers are concerned.

That's breaking every quarantine rule in the book, anyhow. I worry just at the thought that a new beardie was added to the group without appropriate quarantine. The egg-layer is dealing with the gut flora and any potential parasites or pathogens the new mean beardie brought into the house already. Please don't compound things by throwing yet another animal into the mix.

[TribalGecko]

Well I don't see any signs of parasites, everybody is very healthy but I will take your advice and not put her in with the Uro.