Should we have WC animals?

[Bryce Masuk]

Should we be allowed to take animals from the wild steal there freedom/deplete wild populations and keep them in a cage that protects them from habitat destruction or being killed for skin in some cases?
Should be be buying farmed animals even? and support people who pack animals in horriable condtions and send them oversea's to us while many die along the way then line there pockets with cash while 3rd world workers work themself to the bone for these people and make Nearly nothing.....
If you support it why? I am obviously against it but I am open minded and willing to listen....

[Zoe]

I am against keeping WC animals for the most part. In some cases it's understandable (that doesn't make it okay), like with chondros. They are pretty hard to breed but a lot of people want them, and so they are taken from the wild and I don't really have a problem with that.
But when I hear about people finding and keeping black rat snakes, garters, milks, water snakes, etc. it really irritates me. Why steal an established animal from the wild when they are readily accessible in the CB pet trade? It may seem cool to find stuff and keep most don't understand the implications. You can just take an animal that looks healthy and expect it to thrive in captivity. It doesn't work that way. These animals were used to perfectly balanced nature, with enough space to find a better suited area. Unless you're ready to spend hundreds on vet fees, these animals' systems are going to go balistic. AND it isn't fair to the animal. If you're brought up in an apartment your entire life its okay, but if you're used a big beautiful mansion and then get moved to little apartment... ya know.

If you REALLY want a black rat snake or garter or whatever and are too damned cheap to BUY a CB one, then catch a gravid female, keep the eggs (or babies) and let the mother go. The rest of the babies can be set free.

Zoe

[Scales Zoo]

I don't like seeing thousands of snakes brought in for petstores, when most of them are going to die at some stage of the cycle. It is such a waste, and I would much rather see petstores support captive breeding- regardless of cost. (which may actually be lower in the long run if one factors in the amount of deadstock that they deal with in the wild caught biz)

Getting snakes from places that are being deforested, where the snakes won't be able to live anymore and risk extinction, so they can be saved in captivity and hopefully bred in the future is another story.

Having access to fresh blood lines for some species of snakes is a good thing for dedicated breeders and zoos, and those who hope to be able to keep and breed these species in the future.

Farming, and filliing CITES quotas with snakes that are partially man made, rather than raping wild populations - is generally good in my books as well.

If all farming and wild collecting was outlawed 10 years ago, this hobby would be pretty boring in comparison to what it now is - and I would guess that there would be a few species that would be near extinction - that are not now.

I'm generally against wild collecting and some farming, but it does have it's place. I think things could improve a lot.

I used to be totally against wild caught and farming until I listened to a few good points from friends.

Ryan

[fateamber]

I think mostly you should have cb and sometimes farmed is ok, for some species wild caught is ok for a few animals but not taking thousands.

[Pixie]

I didn't vote as there wasn't an answer that really corresponds with my feeling about WC.

In my opinion, the only possible good reason to obtain specimens from the wild is because they aren't available as CB animals and the collection of the animals would be for breeding purposes to start providing CB animals of that particular species.

With most of the reptile species being available as CB, I think it's a shame that WC animals are still found on sale in almost every pet shop...

Gotta love economics...

Pixie

[reptilez]

What are farmed animals??

[fateamber]

My bp is farmed, i wanted to buy a captive bred bp but there arn't really enough of them available around me, i know i could of got one of the internet but i don't like the idea of shiping one to my house, i'm not sure why i just don't.

[fateamber]

A captive farmed animal is where the eggs are colected from the wild and hatched in captivity.

[Gregg M]

Wild caught animals do serve a perpose........ WC animals offer fresh blood lines...... If kept properly, WC reptiles can be as healthy as CB reptiles...... Allthough I am not a big fan of WC reptiles, some times they are needed to mix up my blood lines..... What do you guys think is worse, wild caught herps or inbred herps to create those silly color and pattern morphs???

[Wuntu Menny]

Ok, this should ruffle some feathers:
I have to support farmed for human consumption only, not for the pet trade. From what I've seen, farm raised animals come in just as disease ridden and parasite loaded as WC, sometimes worse due to the high density populations. I do support WC for the establishment of CB colonies and groups only. I see no reason for the massive collection and export of the common species that wind up as disposable pets or subsequently threatened due to overharvesting.

Human consumption!!?? Now you're horrified, aren't you? Well, as much as I enjoy my hobby, I am an omnivorous organism and I have consumed reptile flesh on occasion. I'd have to say it was very nice with a little green peppercorn sauce. I did sense a slight moral conflict at the time, but to a far lesser degree than I would have had the creature been snatched from the wild prior to being sauteed to perfection.

I don't agree with farming for skins alone like some of the alligator and crocodile operations. The same can be said for the Asian and South American snake hunters that harvest the pythons and boas strictly for the vain masses bent on adorning themselves with reptile hides. I'm talking about efficient use of the animals being farmed, in the beef industry they use the term "carcasse performance". It sounds brutal, but that's the harsh reality of being a human these days.

Please don't take this the wrong way and judge it on an emotional scale. Instead, view it with objectivity, perhaps taking into consideration some of your own eating habits. Unless you are purely vegetarian, you have to understand my position.

A little food for thought...

WM

[eyespy]

I think that WC animals should be to improve bloodlines, as Gregg M said, or to establish a good source of captive bred animals but should not be the industry standard it is today.

It absolutely kills me that some animals are so very easy to breed but that it's cheaper to rape the wild populations than to feed and house the blood stock.

Turtles and tortoises spring to mind as a prime example. Many popular species breed well in captivity but because of silly laws like the 4 inch rule in the US, salmonella fears and economics we continue to steal them from their homes instead of producing lovely little shelled wonders in our homes.

[Gregg M]

Gator farms are not as bad as some might think....... The entire gator is used when killed....... The skins are used and there is a pretty big market for gator meat down south....... The gators are dispatched humanely....... Usually a 22 caliper bullet to the brain...... I can not see killing any animal just so people can look fashionable but, if the entire animal is used then I am fine with it as long as wild populations are not affected........

[eyespy]

I can actually deal with farming better when it's for meat, or things like Chinese or Ayurvedic medicine, better than when it's for the pet trade. So many pets are abused or neglected by owners, brokers and pet shops whereas at least animals farmed for human consumption are kept in good health and humanely killed. I don't use the products personally but think people have the right to their traditional menus and medicine.

Most of the folks who buy and sell herps aren't the caring, intelligent folks who frequent discussion boards like this and so many of those mass-farmed animals have a pretty abysmal quality of life. When it costs less than $2 per animal to buy a hundred lot of monitors, snakes, turtles, iguanas, whatever there is no real motive for morons to care about husbandry and humane conditions.

[Bryce Masuk]

I am not 100% against WC and farmed But I will only support it for species we dont have in captivity or we need new bloodlines but when Were talking about ball pythons and anoles it pisses me off. anoles are the MOST abused of them all because any kid can afford one. then it dies a few weeks later because of horrable care. They are so disposeable its sad there are What? like 2-3 breeders of them in the world?
I say we take only What we absoutely need and leave the rest in the wild not continue to get wc because its cheaper then Cb

[burmer]

Thats a tough question to say yes or no to. There are some in betweens there. I do agree that it keeps the bloodlines fresh. I don't have a problem with buying WC if it's something thats not available normally. I have two WC animals myself. A Nile monitor and a burm. I got the Nile because I've always wanted one and was finally able to have the proper set up. The burm is another story. My buddy saw him at a show and he had such a cool pattern and nice coloring that I got him.
I do try not to make a habbit out of buying WC.

[Edwin]

I think it all depends. Buy CB whenever possible, but breeders should introduce new bloodlines every now and then.

Farming is good as long as it is done in humane conditions and keeps people from decimating wild populations.

[Lisa]

I think farming is fine, instead of wasting the eggs of the WC gravid females they are taking the time and resources to either incubate the snakes or let the females do it themselves. Sustainable snake hunting is fine too, just like north americans go hunting deer and duck and sometimes bear. If you have problems with sustainable wc animals speak out about the hunting at home before condeming it in other countries.

[paul_le_snake]

i agree with pixie and scales zoo, i personally hate to see stores offering ch boas!!!!! etc. arent there enough breeders producing boas. answer yes there are, but because alot or about 90% of farmed wc animals are "beginner" animals ie boas, ball pythons, iguanas ( not a beginner in my opinion) anoles, several types of monitors that appeal to the beginner because of their notorioty. basically when a newbie goes to a chain petshop they really dont know the difference between wc, farmed or cbb. i dont blame them either. trouble is is that it all come down to money! why would someone pay $150 for a cbb boa when they can buy a farmed or wc one for 10-50 bucks less? if it was my first snake and i didnt realise some of the implications then i too would buy the cheaper one, i mean they both look the same.
i feel that in this day and age that wc and farming should be slowly stopped. only recognised and acredited breeders should be allowed to import wc / farmed animals. not anyone that can get a permit. this way, if people are serious about reptiles in the bigger picture (ie conservation) then they will hopefully be more inclined to produce cbb stock. in 1997 over one million (yes, ONE MILLION) nile monitors were exported from africa. yes most were for skins, but there is still a big percentage of "pets"
farming is supposedly sustainable!??!?!?!? how? u take a grvid female keep her till she lays her eggs, hatch the eggs en masse, then either release the feamle or skin her. so from one (lets say a ball pythn female that 4 yrs old) snake thats maybe 8 eggs per year for another 10 years, thats 80 neonate pythons that would be part of the ecosystem times that by say 1000 females that are "farmed / ranced" and it adds up to a catastrophy. give it 5-10 years and ball pythons will be on cites 1. . other websites have dealers offering 1000 lots of snakes for as little $3.50 ea how many other snakes died to make that 1000? these snakes that are farmed arent well looked after, they arent kept in nice enclosures, alot of the time they arent fed because feeding = poop, no ppop = no cleaning, and the only water they get is when it rains.
this is something i feel very strongly about (incase u didnt get that already)
so thanks for reading
cheers
paul

[Jeff_Favelle]

Paul, as usual, I agree completely. I distance myself with anyone who is even remotely involved with the wild-caught trade.

Cheers to you man. Great post, as always.

[Bryce Masuk]

Paul you Jeff and I are on the EXACT same page good post you basicly said what I wanted to say but better then I could

[paul_le_snake]

thanks jeff and bruce, good to see some support, lets just hope it doesnt get too bad before it can ever be rectified
cheers
paul

[CDN-Cresties]

Im not a big fan of WC herps, but like Gregg M said, it brings in new blood, which helps the total health of the species in captivity. That being said, herps being brought in by the thousands is riduculous.

-Steve-

[Jeff_Favelle]

Right on Bryce. :D

[Serpent-King]

Ball pythons are a big prob with this. Nearly 100,000 of them are imported to the U.S. alone. Tho I don't think it should be ended totally. They just need to stop importing so many. they're depleting the natural bp's. And personally, in about a week I'm buying two new CH hatchlings. I haven't got too much against CH.

Is there an animal imported more then balls?

[lakeridgekennel]

ha jeff
That male ball you sole me a been breeding up a storm. When you said that he was the best breeder you were right.
GOOD JOB on the eggs congrats

[leolover]

i think keeping wc herps is cruel.if you can't look enough for a cb herp that you want than maybe you aren't ready for a herp at all.