Thoughts on Teaching/Learning Hot Herps

[BWSmith]

OK, another rant from me. So it may not be easy to follow, but there is a point somewhere. I have learned that I jump around alot. The following are my opinions and observations and are bound to tick of a few people. But so be it.

It has been said over and over, that if you want to get into hots to train with an experienced keeper. I have said it more times than I can count. And I have trained people before. Very select people. Only those that struck me as wanting to learn the proper methods, tricks to be safe, handling and husbandry. A very select few. Only those that showed a true love of these animals and a respect for thier potential. A very select few. I am a safety nut. And I believe all hot keepers should be. We are a dying breed. The yolks of restrictions are ever tightening on us. Laws are being passed every day, not for the regulations of hots, but the banning of them. What causes this? Generally it can be traced back to irresponsible keepers. They may be experienced, but irresponsible. This combination is most dangerous to us. These may even be people that work in zoos, nature centers, education, or other high profile positions. Just because someone has an "official" position does not make them responsible keepers. There are certain "veterans" that I would never give or sell animal to, even if they offered me 5 times the market value. These are the people that are experienced, yet irresponsible. Unfortunately, these people often become mentors to aspiring hot keepers. This is bad mojo in my book. Because, no matter your particular practices, you should TEACH "by the book". You cannot control what people do alone, but you can control the lessons you teach them.

So let me speak first to the "teachers":
Youa re the one that the aspiring hot keepers look up to. "Do as I say, not as I do" does not work here. Demonstrate by example. Show the perfect handling and husbandry techniques. Explain the features of your hot room and why they are in
place. Explain features that should be there, but are not yet in place. Knowledge is the key to survival in this game. Become aware of every gesture and action you make so that you can explain WHY you did something or did not do something. Go
over every feature of the cage and teh room and why it is imperative. Often we do so much out of habit or instict, that we
forget why we do it or even IF we are doing it. If the person has never kept a snake, they are NOT READY. If a person has only worked with say, ball pythons and cornsakes, they are not ready. This one will tick people off, but anyone who idolizes Croc Hunter IS NOT READY. Anyone who doesn't care what species,a s long as it is venomous, is not ready. Anyone who wants a specific hot, but does not know the latin name, is not ready. Here is a good test. If they want a Bush Viper, make sure they know where to get antivenin ;) I advocate proper handling and housing. But I am a realist. Not everyone adheres to the rules. But if you are teaching, be safe and be as "perfect" as you can. There is absolutley no reason to teach unsafe handing, particularly to those that are a danger to themselves and others.

To those who aspire to keep venomous:
You too must be selective about who you choose to teach you. And i am sure my little list will ruffle some feathers. I would disregard anyone as a "responsible keeper" and "mentor" IF:
1. they freehandle
2. they use habitually use regualr aquariums for hots
3. they do not have a sealed and locked "hot room"
4. they try to teach you tailing on the first day
5. they ever utter the words "Copperheads are not bad"
6. they pin any hot for a reason other than teaching the technique (which should be about amonth or more in my opinion)
7. they tell you pinning is the easiest way to do anything!
8. they put you within one body length of a snake (you ARE in strike range no matter what they say)
9. all the handling equipment is located in one place
10. they do ANY "Showing Off" or uneccessary handling

Hots are nothing to be trifled with. You may get away with certain practices for a while, but eventualy, you will get bit. And when it comes to venomous species, one mistake may be your last. In my opinion, there can be no halfway with hots. When you are around them, you are 100% safety or you have no business near them. I think that those who keep them that do have the respect for thier potential, should not have them. And I am sure that there are those would tell me I should not have
them for some reason. These are only my opinions, vocal and radical as they may be, they needed to be expressed. And I will not even get into the subject venomoids. But i feel that irresponsible keepers, both new and "experienced" are the greatest danger to themselves, others, and our hobby our passion - the most fascinating, captivating, and misunderstood creatures on our planet, venomous snakes.

[Mustangrde1]

Brian I completely agree 100% with you on everything but one you forgot" PAY ATTENTION TO THE ANIMALS TEMPERMENT "" before trying to work with or inner act with it.If the animals is already very aggitated wait till the next day to deal with it. I understand there are times its unavoidable but as a rule walk away not wourth the risk that day.

Keep ticking people off General of the Militant Army.If what you write makes one person stop and think its 1 person who's life you may have saved.

[JoeBradley]

I guess we can scratch Bill Haast as a mentor. He breaks rule #1.

[BWSmith]

ohh, your right. I did forget to observe the animals ALOT before tryting to work with them. Get to know the movements and manurisms.

Joe, I was waiting for Bill's name to come up ;) I try to write in general terms. There are a couple other names I am waiting to hear :D

[JoeBradley]

Yeah, there are some more, but we could beat this horse all day. This forum would get quite large rather fast. Everyone has a technique and a preference in the way they do things and I doubt we will ever get everyone to agree on a perfectly resposible way to keep reptiles (hot or not).

[SCReptiles]

Dude, do you always have to be so negative about everything? If venomous herpiculture made me as miserable as it does you, I would have gotten out a long time ago. Enjoy what you do and let others enjoy what they do. We need a more defined sense of community rather then divisions over free handing, venomoids, etc. It’s all a part of our hobby and all inclusive under the umbrella of venomous keeping.

[BWSmith]

It is not about being negative. As you said, we are all under the same umbrella, and the more people that practice unsafe handling, the more holes get cut in that umbrella and eventually we will all drown in restrictions. I eat, sleep and breathe hots. And enjoy every moment working with them, reading about them, or talking about them. And there is nothing I can do about other keepers, whether I agree with them or not, it is their right to do what they wish. I respect that. I have certain ethics when it comes to those with handling I do not agree with or voids. Such as I never buy anything from someone who deals in voids. Passive protest ;)

But I think that we can probably agree that not everyone should keep hots. They may have the right to, but it is dangerous for some to keep them. I would not sell a 5 foot EDB to an 18 year old for his first snake. And I don't think you would either. Despite any differing opinions in methodology, I think that we can agree that hots are dangerous and it takes time, effort and education to safely work with them. So if we agree on that (which I am assuming we do **shrug**), then should not the one teaching demonstrate the upmost safety? Whether they follow example and instruction or whether they walk around the house with a Gaboon around their neck is beyond our control. At least we showed them safe methods. If someone I taught got envenomated because I showed them unsafe handling, the guilt would tear me up. When safe methods have been established and new ones are being discovered daily. Why not use the knowledge that others have set forth and stay as safe as possible? Particularly with new keepers.

What prompted me to write this post was past experience. For most people, the prospect of envenomation is an abstract. Knowing what they can do and seeing bite photos is one thing. But when you are sitting bedside to someone who has been bitten by a rattler, by his captive. It hits home. Watching the fasciculations as he tries to talk, seeing the edema up to his shoulder, watching the fasciotomy seep through the bandages, sitting next to his mother. And it could have been avoided. I never cared for his handling, particularly freehandling. But I was still there. Why? Because as you said, we are all still part of the same community. And no matter my personal feelings about the person, their handling, or their methods, I will still be there whether it is at thier bedside to console them or their family or if it is in their hot room to care for the animals in their absence. But I never want to see someone I know in that position again. And if through my ranting and raving about unsafe handling, prospective keepers are a little safer, then I feel it is worth it.

I case it is unclear to anyone, I am a radical when it comes to safety :D And we should teach safety from the moment a prospective keeper decides that they would like to delve into the world of our fanged friends.

[Mustangrde1]

Brian you wrote about using a oil funne;l it think it was awhile back i couldnt find the post . Can you explain how you get it in the cage or do you have it built in to the top so it just goes right in the water dish.

Thanks Scott

[BWSmith]

For front opening cages, I actually use a restraining tube when water just has to be added, and the bowl does not need to be changed completely. I place all the bowls at the front of the cage, then simply open the cage as little as possible and pour water down the tube into the bowl. No removing of snakes and staying out of strike range. SwampY taught me that trick.

[Mustangrde1]

Thanks i was curious im about to get some of the Acrilics and was wonderring about watering as they are top opening, i might just get neos instead though.

[SCReptiles]

It is not about being negative.

Can’t prove it by me. =) If I wasn’t already a keeper, no way I would get into it after reading your stuff!

I have certain ethics when it comes to those with handling I do not agree with or voids. Such as I never buy anything from someone who deals in voids. Passive protest

That is a excellent idea and I think could work if all like-minded people did the same thing. Effect the dealers bottom line and you will see results.

But I think that we can probably agree that not everyone should keep hots.

By all means! I think only a small percentage of people are willing to put forth the time and effort to do what we do, and no one should attempt this half-assed.

They may have the right to, but it is dangerous for some to keep them. I would not sell a 5 foot EDB to an 18 year old for his first snake. And I don't think you would either.

God has given them the right to keep it, but we have the legal right and moral obligation not to sell it to them. I will not sell any Crotalus to an inexperienced keeper. If they buy the proper equipment from me or can prove to me they have it and a proper cage, I will sell them a copperhead or a pigmy. If they still have all their fingers in 6 months, we can talk about a timber or a diamond.

Despite any differing opinions in methodology, I think that we can agree that hots are dangerous and it takes time, effort and education to safely work with them.

By all means!

[BWSmith]

If I wasn’t already a keeper, no way I would get into it after reading your stuff!

Ahh! Exactly what I wanted to hear. If someone has their whole heart into it, nothing will stop them will keeping. But by discouraging the ones that would do it "Half-assed" as you said (very well put), then we may be stopping irresponsible keepers before they start.

[Oliverian]

But... doesn't Chuck have his whole heart in it?..... Mabye i'm not getting something but it looks like you are saying he is only doing it 'half-assed'... is that right or am I just clueless? :confused:

[Mustangrde1]

Personal thought on any new keeper is if they arnt ready they arnt ready. Why not say ok here is a coachwhip keep it 6 months alive and healthy and dont get bit once and then we can talk.Coachies are wourse than most hots i know of and will deffinatly keep them on their toes.Atleast with a non-venomous mean sob like them they wont git bit and die.just a thought ! Im sure every experiance keeper has one or two they are very warry of.If someone with experiance has reservations about an animal and they have experiance how can we sell to someone a hot that has no experiance and sleep at night.I know for myself when and If my wife and I ever do breed venomous which we hope too, I will want to see things before selling to a person.
1ST is proof of age 18 years or older.
2nd a permit to own venomous if needed.
3rd a letter of experiance with years and people worked with or under.
4th is 2 refferances as to the persons experiance and maturity.
5th i want a picture of the cages they will be kept in and the tools on the cage they will be using.

People might say thats unreasonable! well then they can go to another person. I have to sleep at night and i dont think I could knowing i might have just sold a animal to a person who might die from a bite or that the animal might die from lack of knowledge or care from the keeper. The day i care more about the all mighty dollar more than the animal is the day I need to get out of reptiles.

[SCReptiles]

But... doesn't Chuck have his whole heart in it?..... Mabye i'm not getting something but it looks like you are saying he is only doing it 'half-assed'... is that right or am I just clueless?

Well, as far as I know BW doesn’t think I am halfassed, although he may. =) I think the point he was trying to get across is that his overly negative persona may dissuade an aspiring venomous keeper who is not 100% committed to it.

[Vanan]

I think the point he was trying to get across is that his overly negative persona may dissuade an aspiring venomous keeper who is not 100% committed to it.

I agree totally! Brian, you're doing what you do best. Saving the hot herp community! Good job my friend! If you can't face everything Brian says, then do everyone a favour and don't get into hots.

[The_Omen]

Thanks V.

That also goes for ALL the snakes, not just hots.
Someone may be up to date on their hots permits, be the best hots guy ever, but in some mixed collections, not getting permits for others, say boids, indigenous non vens etc, can still be a bad mark on a record and another black eye for the community.

[SCReptiles]

I agree totally! Brian, you're doing what you do best.

Yeah, now that I have come to expect his hyper-negativity I actually find it entertaining. =) The other day I read a post from a young kid saying he had ordered a burm and he was on the way to pick it up and now that he has it he would like to know how to take care of it. Soon as I read that, I knew what was coming. =) I thought to myself, what if he had ordered a ratter? Brain’s head will probably spin like that chic in the Exorcist. =) Yeah, there was a bombardment of negative messages threw at the youngster, but none like old BW could have tossed out.

[BWSmith]

Oliverian, I was inferring anything about Chuck being halfassed. I merely stated that our beliefs and methodologies differ. So be it. We agree on many other points.

Again, I must say that I do not believe that I am being negative. I am being as upfront as I can. I do not sugar coat anything. I simply regurgitate what I see and what I believe. Negative, no. Extreme and passionate, yes. I eat, sleep and breathe these animals. I consider it the greatest honor of my life to be able to work with them. The very day that I took the time to stare into the eyes of an Eastern Diamondback, my life changed course and it felt as though the missing piece had been given to me. A little molodramatic I know, but they engulfed me ........... completely. So I shall do all in my power to dissuade the irresponsible and illprepared from keeping. I never lie. I simply tell it as it is.

As experienced hot keepers, we know the animals. We often know how they move, we can sometimes sense what is about to happen. Keeping venomous is a combination of respect, experience and instinct. All three must be there. Instinct cannot be taught. It is as simple as just knowing hook placement on a snake without thinking about it. Or knowing the exact moment to grab when tubing. These are things that most of us do from instinct, there is no indepth thought process, because often descisions must be made in a split second. Most bites happen in the blink of an eye. And even veterans take bites. As far as experience: We can teach all we know. Every method, technique, trick, hook placement, foot placement, quirks of different species and so forth. We can offer the tools and knowledge and perhaps some experience. But experience comes with time. The last aspect, Respect. This is what I try to instill. Correct me if I am wrong, but would any of the veterans here say that keeping venomous is easy? Is it safe? Is it something anyone can do? All too often, experienced keepers become somewhat laxidasical about certain species. I feel like smacking everyone who utters the words "It's only a copperhead". But we are all guilty at some point of not giving a snake the respect it deserves. Even a momentary lapse in concentration can be devistating. I think we can all agree on that. Because let's face it, It's a fact, proven time and time again. So should we endorse every wannabe hot keeper? I answer that with a booming "NO" echoing through the Appalachians. But, as I have said, I have trained a select few. And I was trained, for 2 years. So at least I am not a hipocrit in this area. But if someone asks for training or tries to find someone in his area, then he is at least taking (what I consider) appropriate steps and may one day become a legend. But those who buy a baby Gaboon at a herp show with no experience or even knowledge of how to care for it and put it in a 10 gallon in his bedroom, I consider them a liability.

So why would I make the original post? Because like begats like. Irresponsible handers training people, has a great potential to create mor irresponsible handlers. Now Bill Haast was mentioned, as i knew he would be. And dozens of others could be as well. We will take Bill as an example. The man is almost 90 for god's sake. It was a different time. You think that hot keepers are outcasts now, try living in the 50's. Let's face it, Bill is a legend and has provided the world with not only knowledge and understanding of hots, but the means to cure an envenomation. Hell, his blood has been used as AV! But knowledge is the key. If you started keeping before the 80's, let's face it, you were pretty much on your own unless you were fortunate enough to have a keeper nearby or volunteer at a reptile house. It was a different world. Welcome to the world of information. With the amount of information and communication available, there is no excuse for poor handing. I will jump back for a minute because a good example just occured to me (and when I am on a rant, I don't go back and edit ;) ). I said that like begats like. Let's take a member on this forum (and Ihope it doesn't piss him off). Ray Hunter. Ray freehandles elapids. He makes no secret of it. But he worked with Bill Haast. And I have to think that much of that derived from his time with Bill. Correct me if I am wrong Ray. But back to information. The knowledge is there, and only a few clicks away. Why engage in an already dangerous activity with methods that increase the danger rather than decrease it? I see no reason other than showing off or self gratification. Let's look at free handing (sorry Ray and Chuck, no offense intended), but I have racked my brain, and I can find no reason, absolutely no reason, to free handle. If someone can give me a viable reason, I would love to hear it (no sarcasm intended, I really would). While I have Ray and Chuck in the spotlight ;) Would either of you teach freehandling? Would you encourage others to do it? What if you caught someone freehanding one of your snakes? If you would not teach or encourage (assumption), then what does it tell people who see you do it? "Do as I say, not as I do" does not work as all of us who are past the teenage years knows. We must teach by example. OK, I'll quit pickingon Ray and Chuck, they are just the only 2 freehandlers I know here ;) No hard feelings.

OK, I got way off topic here, but you all should be used to that by now. As for the original post that started these 2 pages of replies, I thank those who support me and I respect the opinions of those that don't. But for those who think that I was off base on something, I would very much like to know what it is specifically so that I may ponder the point more and perhaps gather new information. I may be a fanatic, opinionated, and a straight shooter, but I welcome critisism and valid points. We can all learn from each other. And my posts are not only to enlighten newbies and wannabes, but to spark a discussion wich may bring other opinions and information to light.

OK, I think that is enough on this one. My fingers hurt now :D

[Mike177]

ok, cool,
I would one day like to getinto hot keeping. i am 15 and know my level of experance. but i figure i might as well study now so one day when i do deside to get one i will be that much more ready. but it is kinda hard to ask questions about hots without getting the question taken the wrong way. now i under stand what BW Smith is trying to do by discuriging newbie hot keepers, and i am not going to question what he says, especaly seince hey clearly knows his stuff and i clearly don't. but i just wanted to ask where would a good spot to find a hot keeper to teach u stuff? i am going to do the coachwhip things in a few years, but it seems to be kinda hard to find someone who keeps hots, let alone spend time with you reviewing the same thing OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN!! because i know alot of people would just say piss off. and also when people ask questions just try to anser them. i know what u are trying to do and i am in no way trying to disrespect you, but u seem to jump to the worse case senorio and then bitch about how not to do that and about how these people arent ready. but insted try to anser the question and point out risks. because i remember when i first came to this forum i asked what a good started hot was. and i got some people who would accualy anser and some people who would just tell me how i wasent ready.... but the vast majority was just people bitching, i dont know if this rant made any sence but ya.... i am going to go before i make a bigger *** out of myself.

Mike,

[Gregg M]

Well Mike the way I see it is you cant sugar coat this end of the hobby........ The worst case should be the first thing thought about and brian does a good job putting it out....... Also most hot keepers will have no problem teaching some one the ropes as long as the one wanting to be taught is 100% serious and 100% sure they are ready to become a keeper of venomous snakes...... If there is any question in your mind about keeping hots then you are not ready........ The only thing I do not agree with is the coach whip thing....... No non ven will ever get one ready to keep a hot....... You will never be as careful because in the back of your head, you know if you get bit, you wont die........ And a coachwhip acts nothing like any viper I have ever seen........ And just because someone can keep a coachwhip alive and healthy and can keep it without getting bit, does not qualify them to keep hots...... But this is just my opinion........
Gregg

[Mustangrde1]

Brian I can and will say and I am sure Ray will when he gets the time to get back on here." HE WOULD KICK SOMEONE OUT OF THE BUILDING THAT DOES ANY FREE HANDLING"".Ray was my teacher and will be in the future as will anyone I can possibly learn from. I had to get rid of my collection in California when I moved to Florida" sigh" I miss my crots. But Ray took the time to let me come work with him and get my hours and year to obtain my permit here in Florida. He is currently teaching my wife how to properly deal with venomous. Husband is a little to protective so its best to let a friends with experience. Saves me a lot of stress and worry. That is how well of a teacher he is and how much I trust him. One thing I have heard him say over and over is "HE WILL TAKE A HIT BEFORE HE WOULD LET IT BITE SOMEONE ELSE."

Now on to Bill Haast.If people stop and think about how many venomous snakes the man has handled in his life's its got to be in the millions of handling's with him being I believe now 92 or 94 and having at last count 180+ bites or so that would be less than 1/10 of 1%. Anyone who has ever received antivenin needs to give Bill and people like them a thank you.

As to free handling,"" grrrrrrrrr stupid show off's to friends normally"""""" .I have seen pinning and free grabs. It is my opinion that for the purpose of milking and elapid or bagging it or medicating it that its a far less stressful tactic." One I do not indorse for anyone ". I base my opinion on seeing snakes struggle and thrash about during pinning. Where with a free grab they appear to be much more settled and the speed in a free grab from box and back is much faster thus reducing the stress of human interaction or confinement on the animal."" Again I would not want to see anyone do this and I do not condone it in any way"" However with men like Ray and Bill and a few others that wish to take that risk its their style and life. However they do it for a business as a profession. There is NO call for a personal collector to ever handle a venomous snake without proper tools.

[Selecta]

I have absolutely no experience with hots, but I think this is just common sense. No one wants to get bit and no one wants to teach someone how to get bit. I think any experienced hot keeper wouldn't show a newbie anything that would directly cause a bite, but come on, even with a hook the potential to get taged is still there. In my opinion any tool that is used to handle hots is no more than an extention of the handler's body, and to some experienced handlers it may not be the prefered option. I would imagine just like any other animal the handler can feel the muscles moving with there hands while holding it and they may sense some thing a little quicker. If your just a dummy whose trying to impress people by free handling, then you shouldn't use a hook, you shouldn't even have a snake. Hot keepers are the most dedicated people in the reptile hobby. It takes patience, consistent practice, and a great deal of knowledge to keep hots. Hopefully this will weed out all the people who are not prepared to keep them, it definitely weeded me out. I know I could never keep a hot, they honestly scare me, but some people (unfortunately usually younger) don't realize what it takes. Nothing is set in stone, everyone will always do things their own way and I would hope no one does anything they don't feel comfortable with. I'm sure any of the free handlers discussed in this thread are more than comfortable with what they do, and would never teach someone how to get hurt.

[Gregg M]

Unfortunately, by the time you feel a muscle twitch you have probably already been bit...... Especialy if you are working with vipers....... Crots are scary fast and true vipers like bitis are even faster...... The human eye and hand are not quick enough to get away from a strike...... If you are not hit after a strike it is because the snake did not want to get you...... Dont ever count a dry bite...... That does not happen often enough........ Free handling is just as rediculous as someone who is not ready for a hot, to get a king cobra........

[Mustangrde1]

Fully agreed Greg that is why i said elapids. Anyone who would even dream of a free grab on any of the vipers is a nutcase and really deserves what they get.

[Gregg M]

Absolutly....... Elapids are not nearly as fast....... But they can be way underestimated by untrained persons........ That is why things like that are better left to Bill and Ray....... :)

[SCReptiles]

While I have Ray and Chuck in the spotlight Would either of you teach freehandling? Would you encourage others to do it? What if you caught someone freehanding one of your snakes? If you would not teach or encourage (assumption), then what does it tell people who see you do it? "Do as I say, not as I do"

I am on record here and other places as discouraging free handling. Would I allow anyone else to come into our building and free handle, of course not. Do I train people in free handling, no. But we live at the foot of Sand Mountain, which is the Mecca religious snake handling. All keepers around here have seen snakes free handled since they were children, so it’s really not that uncommon to us. To the best of my knowledge there are 3 digital pictures or me free handling. There are some older hard copies out there, but I can not account for where they might be. The 3 pictures in question were taken for very specific reasons. One is snake conservation. In my office and many other places I often hear the horror stories of how ferocious copperheads are…how they chase people down, you know the story. When I present pics of me holding these uncontrollable beasts, it quickly deflates these ludicrous stories. Also Bubbas love to impress chicks with the stories of how they slew killer copperheads. Usually by running them over or shooting them. Again, Bubba quickly looses his inflated ego when confronted with these pics. Now, for an example of this, review the post about the guys who mailed the copperheads. The police arrived on the scene and shot them. Some one posted and asked why? The answer was, “because they are venomous.” A picture is worth a 1000 words. I can write or talk all day long about how these snakes will only bite when threatened, and that still would not have half the effect of me holding mine. Another reason is an article I am working on. Most of you may not know this, but I am a devote Christian. I believe some of my brothers and sisters are misguided in the snake handling doctrine. I am working on an article about this practice. Theologians have wrote on this subject for many years and debunked the scripture, but the snake handlers come back time after time with how do we do it if not divine intervention? The theologians are not in a position to answer this question, but I feel that I am. For the sake of credibility to the handlers and to anyone reading my work, I felt pictorial evidence was necessary. I realize full well that Brain, Tony, and Scott are on the other side of this issue from me and that is fine. I see their points fully. They are venomous keepers and they fell that free handling jeopardizes their hobby. I do not cast any dispersions on them for their beliefs. My take on the matter is that they do not see the big picture. Mainstream snake keepers and breeders see venomous herpiculture as a threat to the entire hobby and say the same things about Brain, Tony, and Scott that they say about Ray, Haast, and Me. It’s dangerous, no need for that risk, what is the benefit? It’s a cycle, with no end in sight. A boa keeper can not understand why Brain would want PK. Brain cannot understand why I like to pick up Robert E Lee. Brain knows why he keeps PK, but can’t convey that understanding to the boa keepers. I know why I pick up Lee, but I can’t convey to Brain. I don’t think that makes anyone right or wrong, just of different opinions. Aside from the issues of free handing and venomoids, I think we all see eye to eye on everything else.

[SCReptiles]

Anyone who would even dream of a free grab on any of the vipers is a nutcase

I thought we had come to an understanding on the name calling? You may well have some good points, but it hurts your credibility when you throw out things like this. I am definitely not as likely to be receptive to the points of someone calling me a nutcase, and I think most other people feel the same.

[Gregg M]

Freehandling is a foolish act...... Responsable and safe keeping of venomous snakes is not....... There is a big difference...... When you freehandle you take all the safty and responsability out of keeping hots....... You can kick an old man down the stairs, but it dont make it right....... Chuck, no offence, but your argument has lots of holes in it...... When someone sees a pic of you holding a copperhead they might think its ok to do so...... I dont care how many times you say "dont try this at home"....... And religion is no excuse to freehandle venomous snakes...... I would like to see one of those people handle a pissed off gaboon or a russles....... Or how about a mamba????? Aint gonna happen......... The only thing that saves these people from not getting bit is the relativley docile nature of coppers and cottons...... Hell, I have even caught many timbers that never attempted to strike....... But that never made me want to put my hook down and pick one up....... The ones that do get bit by timbers or cottons sometimes do wind up dead.......

[SCReptiles]

I would like to see one of those freaks handle a pissed off gaboon or a russles

Statements like that are the reason I never try to discuss things with you. And I after this post I assure I will never respond to you again. Yes, they will pick up anything you take to them. Rev Billy Summerfield of the Rock House Holiness Church in Section, AL has took up every snake that a skeptic like you have brought in. Including cobras and king browns. He has been bitten 7 times but stands stead fast by his faith. The legend, Punkin Brown (pictured below) was bitten 27 times, before he died in Billy’s church. He was tagged by all the exotics and lived to handle again before the Timber ended his life. Why they are mislead in doctrine they are my brothers and not freaks. They have more integrity then you should ever hope to.

[cobraman]

Hey there, all. Brian, regardless of what I do, as you know, you and I are in complete agreement on the topic of free handling. I am not offended at all by what you wrote about me, in fact I agree with you, BUT--- I do want to make a couple of quick points. (BTW, Bill Haast is now 92 years old and will be 93 December 31).
Point #1- I did not learn to free handle from Mr. Haast. I was doing that long before I met Bill. However, Bill handles the way he does for 2 reasons (A) It was always a major attraction and part of his shows in Miami. You can not immagine how many people went to the origional Miami Serpentarium JUST to watch Bill handle the cobras the way he did. Sunday was his best day, when he would take all the big King Cobras out in the lawn and catch them in frount of his audience. Most people went to enjoy his show, and NOT to learn handling techniques. Bill has NEVER taught anyone handling techniques, per se as I have and do. (B) It is quicker and far more gentle and humane on the animal. For the average hobiest this is not an issue, but to those of us that do venom production and handle +/- 70 different snakes a day for venom extraction, it does make a difference.

Point #2- When I do teach someone handling techniques (such as Scott, Danny, Derrick, Alison etc) I teach the PROPER method. As Scott wrote, NOBODY will ever free-handle a venomous snake in my facility. They may see me from time to time handle in a less than safe mannor, but they have been trained properly, and they know the right way to handle. So far, I am not aware of anyone ever wanting to free-handle a cobra because they saw me do so.
Point #3- (this may be a bit contraversial) Bill Haast and I self immunize and stock a lot of different antivenoms. Now, I realize that this does not give license to free-handle, anymore so than someone driving like an idiot just because they have an airbag in the car. But I do take all the precautions (both for myself and others).
Point #4 (and last) - When I do free-handle cobras, I am not doing it for show-off reasons. My techniques are consistant regardless of if someone is there watching me or if I am by myself working (which is how I do all my venom production). The pics that are circulating of me with cobras in my hands were for entertainment only, and not purposed to be used for venomous snake handling training. I have this statement posted on my wed site, and I strongly discourage anyone attemting to do what they see me doing (and so does Bill Haast). "NOBODY RESPECTS A SHOW-OFF!!!"
The bottom line is that I do NOT endorse free-handling of venomous snakes, and furthermore, I will not be around someone that is doing that. I realize that that sounds hipacritical, but I do what I do because it works best for me. Other than the free-handling issue, I passed the other 9 points of Brian's teacher checklist :) Very well done Brian!
Be Blessed, all

[SCReptiles]

I am not aware of anyone ever wanting to free-handle a cobra because they saw me do so.

Well spoken Ray. I simply do not believe there are people stupid enough to attempt to free hand because they saw a picture of someone else doing it. That is a impractical point.

[Mustangrde1]

It may seem impractical to you, but that has been the big gripe against Ray for all the pics of him free-handling cobras. Ray cannot immagine anyone that stupid either, but everyone that posts negative comments about the pics of Ray and snakes states that that is the concern, so it must not be an impractical point (at least not to Ray).

[SCReptiles]

Ok, Scott, would you pick up a copperhead simply because you saw a picture of me doing it? I am assuming the answer is, no. Well, give other people as much credit. You know better then to do something like that and so do they.

[Gregg M]

Ok Chuck, Whatever you say....... It realy makes no difference to me if you reply to my post or not........ I would like one example of a post I made that makes you feel this way about replying to me other than the one we are in....... If you do not practice safe handling or if you freehandle then you realy have nothing to offer me or any new hot keeper anyway....... And your name dropping does not do anything for you either........ Also I would love to see some proof that he was envenomated by some of those "exotic" species and did not seek medical attention and lived....... I wonder why the the guy you pictured is a legend??? Maybe because the law of averages finaly caught up to him....... Anyone free handling will suffer the same fate....... It is unfortunate that the man died as a result of a misread scripture...... But this realy has nothing to do with religion and I dont care if you are a man of the book....... If your religion makes you happy that is fine but you should keep it to your self......... Like I said before, It does not matter if you reply to my post ever again........ I think I can deal with it........
Gregg

[Mustangrde1]

Ray cannot imagine anyone that stupid either,

Definition so as no possible way to twist it to anyone's belief or thought = Ray can not Beileve that any one can copy what he does based on a picture that is posted for entertainment value,and if so they should not be watching any form of TV.

So it must not be an impractical point (at least not to Ray).

Definition = Ray is not Steve Irwin. He does not condone nor does he promote free handling, to anyone yet is first to state it is dangerous and deadly and WOULD NOT be around anyone that does it. The pictures he post are for ENTERTAINMENT ONLY and by no means to be used for training.

Now that being cleared up. As to the pictures because I am certain someone will make a smart _ _ _ comment. Ever watch TV National Geographic, or Pick up a magazine where Snake Charmers are handling or working with venomous snakes.

I am certain you have as have millions of others and thank God but they aren't trying it. Well, unless they are in India,Africa,Pakistan,etc, etc., etc., where it not only a part of the their life but also religion.

[cobraman]

Thanks Scott. Chuck, the point I was making is that in the past 17 years of my various work with venomous snakes, there have been many visitors (including various media personel) that take the posed photos that are a part of my website (cobraman . net), and many of these people have brought or sent me copies of the pics. The photo page called "cobraman's diary" was started by my business partner (not me). Most people tell me that they enjoy the pics, and seem to recognize it for what it is (entertainment -- not to be copied). However, less than 1% of these people express concern to me that they fear others will see me doing this, and copy this very dangerous activity. As I said before, I am not aware of anyone rushing out and getting a 13 foot King Cobra and free-handling it simply because they saw a pic of me doing it. It could happen, I guess, but anyone that would assume it to be a sound thing to do based on a pic on the internet, is a danger to themselves, and probably to others, and should not be allowed on the internet, nor should they be allowed to watch TV. Think of all the dangerous stunts they show even in commercials, not to mention some of the action packed movies shown. Why not worry about these people attempting to copy some of that stuff? (Lets all hope one of these people does not watch the Ted Bundy movie)
Again, at the risk of sounding hipacritical, I do not condone free handling, and other tham Mr. Haast, I am never around anyone that does it. I have lost several friends to snake envenomation, and medical complications of snakebites. I do what I do (and believe me, it is far less free-handling than most people dis-credit me for) because it works best for me and the snakes under ALL the surrounding circumstances.
Oh no, my soap box is giving way again. Be blessed!
Ray Hunter

[BWSmith]

OK, where to begin? So much has been said since my last post. First, I would like to say, let's all calm down a bit (did I say that?). The key posters in this thread are all veteran keepers and we are all adults. First, I will say that I agree that name calling is uncalled for (although I used the term "irresponsible"). But I will also say to Chuck that with this practice of handling, there are bound to be negative comments. Hell, we deal with them every day as hot keepers. I cannot count the times I have heard "freak", "insane" or "Someone married you?" It is the nature of wht we do. And it is an added torment to freehandlers. I realize that it is hard, but letting it slide abit may be best. Just my opinion. I am about as laid back as you get (aside from venomous issues), and I let alot roll off my back. But there are some things that irk me more than others. Perhaps that is one of your peaves. I don't know, just rambling. I want this to stay civil. We have a good discussion going and good opinions (all of which are respected). And would not want the thread to be locked because of bickering. Ok, enough of that. I have done enough contradicting myself by instigating the discussion then trying to calm it a bit ;)

In my opinion any tool that is used to handle hots is no more than an extention of the handler's body
I am very impressed. That is wonderfully stated. It goes back to instinct.

I would like to see one of those freaks handle a pissed off gaboon or a russles
I saw one buy an Echis. i about fainted! And while we are on the Snake Handlers. I consider them outside our realm of hot keeping. They do it for religeous purposes. We have freedom of religion and I support their right to practice. I plan on making a trip to one of the churches just to have experienced it. I will not participate, but I find it interesting. Perhaps I have a double standard, but thier actions do not really affect us as much as other private keepers. If they DO hit the news, they are always clear that it was related to religious practice.

The bottom line is that I do NOT endorse free-handling of venomous snakes, and furthermore, I will not be around someone that is doing that.
Thank you for stating that very clearly with no ifs, ands, or buts.

I simply do not believe there are people stupid enough to attempt to free hand because they saw a picture of someone else doing it. That is a impractical point.
I actually think it IS a viable point. And Croc Hunter is mybest example. All of you have seen the same results I have. A mother taking her 2 young sons to catch a rogue gator because "They watch Croc Hunter all the time, I am sure they can catch it". Or the mountain biker who got bit because "I saw Steve Irwin do it". We are all fairly intelligent people here. Sometime we forget just how stupid humans can be. There are so many macho freaks and "monkey-see-monkey-do" people, that we cannot be too careful. I have one picture. A great picture. Of one of the few occasions I had to pin a Copperhead and someone was there with a camera. Trust me, it is a fantastic shot. Fangs clear, perfect 3 finger pin, hook within reach, great colors. A GREAT picture. And I love it. But you will never see me post it for that reason. It is not the same as freehandling, but it is still one of the most dangerous aspects of hot husbandry and do not want to set forth the impression that it should be taken lightly.

I have lost several friends to snake envenomation, and medical complications of snakebites.
I am sorry to hear that Ray. Unfortunately we are hobby with casualties. No matter how many precaution you take, there can always be an accident or lapse inconcentration. I wanted to mention this because I in no way want to portray that only freehandlers get bit. All we can do is minimize the risk by proper techniques. Freehanding simply removes many of those precautions.

For those who made it this far in the thread and this far through my post ;) I would like to add another Red Flag for those looking for a mentor. I would NEVER recommend a mentor that drinks alcohol before or during any work with hots. I worked on my yard for 7 hours today and feeding and maintenance another 3 hours, So I am sitting back relaxing with a beer right now. I just realized about 30 seconds ago that there was a Copperhead shed that I forgot to remove. That will wait till tomorrow. Alcohol and hots DON'T MIX!

I gotta check forum more often and maybe my replys will be shorter ;)

[cobraman]

Well said Brian.
Peace, Ray

[Mike177]

Alcohol and hots DON'T MIX!
like i said before i am not a hot keeper but i do my fare share of reading and i cant tell u hot many times i have heard that!

[Gregg M]

I would just like to opologize to Chuck for the comment I made about his brothers........ It was a stupid thing to write so I took it upon myself to change the wording in the post....... Sorry for the ignorant remark........

[SCReptiles]

Chuck, the point I was making is that in the past 17 years of my various work with venomous snakes, there have been many visitors (including various media personel) that take the posed photos that are a part of my website (cobraman . net), and many of these people have brought or sent me copies of the pics. The photo page called "cobraman's diary" was started by my business partner (not me). Most people tell me that they enjoy the pics, and seem to recognize it for what it is (entertainment -- not to be copied).
I did not need clearification, I knew exactly what you meant and I agreed with you????
I cannot count the times I have heard "freak", "insane" or "Someone married you?" It is the nature of wht we do.
Point taken on that, and in response if someone called me a freak, that is different. I am here to defend myself. Calling an entire group of people freaks, when they are not here to rebut is completely different. Like any cross-section of people you have some good and a few bad, but for the most part these people are the salt of the earth. Most are very poor, some do not have electricity in there homes. They work hard 12 to 14 hours a day, then spend many hours in church at night. They do not ask anyone for anything, except to be left alone to live their lives. Do I agree with the, no. Do I respect them, yes.
I saw one buy an Echis. i about fainted! And while we are on the Snake Handlers. I consider them outside our realm of hot keeping. They do it for religeous purposes.
By all means. They are not limited to pit vipers. They use cobras, king browns, gaboon, rhinos, etc etc etc. Most of you will know James Evans. He loaned his Puff Adder to Bro Billy to use in church. That is before AL DNR came and took it. =) I am not sure how you can consider them outside the realm of hot keeping. Sure they pick them up in church, but they also house them all thru the week. They feed them, tend to them, clean the cages, they are by all means hot keepers. And they have experience we can not touch. The movement here on Sand Mountain started at the turn of the century. That means not only are the current members keeping, so was their father, their grand father, their great grand father, etc. How many people here learned to work hots from their grand father? These people have a wealth of knowledge that we can benefit from.
I plan on making a trip to one of the churches just to have experienced it.
Billy holds a service every Friday night in Section, AL. I would be happy to take you anytime you want to go. There are services all over, but they do not always open the serpent box. I have never seen a Friday pass in Section without the serpents coming out.
I actually think it IS a viable point. And Croc Hunter is mybest example. All of you have seen the same results I have.
I have heard over and over that some “kid” is going to get hurt imitating the croc hunter, but has it really happened? I remember people getting bitten trying to catch coppers and rattlers back when I was a kid. This was before there was a croc hunter, so you can’t place blame on him for the stupidity of others. Stupid people will be stupid and they do not need croc hunter, Ray, or me to be stupid. =)

[BWSmith]

But these incidents are ones that the person specifically said that their actions were because they watched him and mimicked it. They did not leave anything to interpretation. Not much gray area there.

[Mustangrde1]

Chuck , Steve Irwin is a danger to kids with his show and showing off of freehandling.I have posted this before but I suppose i should again.I will make it brief,I have taken a Coral Snake from two children playing with it in their front yard. wHEN i ASKED WHAT THEY WERE DOING THIER RESPONCE WAS " WE ARE PLAYING THE CROC HUNTER". That leaves absolutly no doubt in my mind that someone has or will someday get bit.Thoses kids even knew it was a coral. I do however put more blame on the parents for not supervising them better.Regaurdless though Steve was the insperation for thier action.

[BWSmith]

I think you nailed this item perfectly. We should not say that he is the "cause" of these actions, or "to blame" for these actions, I think that he is an "inspiration" of these actions is a much better term and much more accurate. IYou just changed my terminology. ;)

[Mike177]

i accualy have a video with steve in it and in it he goes up to what he beleves to be the worlds deadlyest snake and accualy lets it flick its toung up on his nose. i mean MY GOD u have got to draw the line somewhere!

[BWSmith]

OK, we have illustrated both sides of Irwin and there are 2 open threads dedicated to it right now, one here in the venomous forum and one in general discussion. I think we can set him aside here and go back to the issues at hand. ;)

[cobraman]

Well, Brian, The issue in MY hand at this exact moment is a 4 foot Blue Krait ...... JUST KIDDING!!!! STOP PULLING YOUR HAIR OUT AND BANGING YOUR HEAD INTO YOUR DESK!! Sorry, buddy, I just could not resist the perfect segway. Peace, all. Ray Hunter

[BWSmith]

Bah, I know that you would not freehandle a krait at night. :)

[Jeremy]

Ok guys, I am replying to a point made back on the second page of this thread so please forgive me if the issue has already been adressed. Regarding elapids, to say they can be free handled because they are not as fast as Crots or Viperade is bull!! Have you ever seen a Taipan strike? They hit just as fast and hard as almost any crotalid. Dendroaspis is also as quick and overall speed body movments makes them the fastest snake genus in the world! Naja melanoluca is also extreamly fast, along with the Desert Blacksnakes (they are extreamly fast strikers!!)Puesdohaje(Tree Cobras) and even Puesdonaja(Brownsnakes). Hell, the fastest strikeing snake in the world is an elapid!!! Hello, death adder?????

Ok, enough sounding like a smart arse:-) Bottom line, if your free handle, agree with it or whatever, dont use the elapids as an excuse to act reckless. Free handleing period is unsafe IMHO(and no im not counting hook and tail method)but if you insist on doing s more power to ya. Just find something else to rationalize your choice of handleing. Free handleing Elapids is just as dangerous as free handleing crots and most of the time, the consequences are much, much, much more devestateing!! If you self imunize you are excluded from this message.

No offense to anyone, just the facts.

Burning the soap box now:-D

Peace,
J

[SCReptiles]

Hog wash! Pure and simple. Regardless of what the liberals want us to believe, people of a reasonable age and mental capacity are responsible for their own actions. If they are not of reasonable age and/or mental capacity, then they have a guardian who is responsible for filtering what they see or explaining what they see in terms they can understand. Me, Ray Hunter, and Steve Erwin are not responsible for other people free handing, no more then rappers are responsible for their fans shooting people, or heavy metal bands for their fans committing suicide. Make a note of this point : people are responsible for their own actions and/or the actions of their unemancipated dependents. I challenge anyone to present evidence to the contrary.

[Matt]

people are responsible for their own actions and/or the actions of their unemancipated dependents.

i dont think anyone is disagrees with this point, but its naive to think that someones actions who are 1) considered a professional and 2) are on a glorified TV show do not affect what some people do....

i dont knowif its true but someone told me the croc hunter rarely airs in australia because they feel it encourage kids to be messing around where they shouldnt....i dont know, take that for whats its worth

[SCReptiles]

naive to think that someones actions who are 1) considered a professional and 2) are on a glorified TV show do not affect what some people do....

Again I say with all the emphasis that I can: people are responsible for their own actions. Ice Cube never put a gun in anyone’s hand. AC/DC never put the rope around anyone’s neck. I have never put a venomous snake in anyone’s hand.

[Matt]

chuck, c'mom man....i agree with you.......but do not tell me that people arent influenced (especially by people who are considered pros)

you havent put a snake in anyones hands......but when someone who respects you sees how you do it, they may mimic that.....right or wrong, they still may mimic that....thats all Im saying

...and someone that is on an international popular TV show should be careful what example he sets for kids who may be interested in herps

[JoeBradley]

Why is this issue such a big deal?? No one cares if a venomous keeper is bitten by his own snake. If Steve Irwin got swallowed by a crocodile tomorrow no one would lobby for new legislation. The public will say “I told you so” and move on.
As for taking responsibility for your own actions I think people should start stepping up to the plate and say, “My mistake”. Quit blaming McDonalds because you stuck a cup of hot coffee between your legs and spilled it. God gave everyone a brain. Use it!!! Anyone willing to copy things they see other people do without knowing what the risks are deserve a few knocks in the head. We as venomous keepers have weighed what risks we are willing to take and take them every day. Just because someone takes his risks one step further than you does not make him irresponsible. To the ball python keeper we are irresponsible snake owners for keeping venomous.

LET IT GO, PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fatboy]

Look, I have seen Chuck free hand Robert E. Lee on many occasions. Did I go pick it up next? Not at all. Will I ever free hand? No way. This just don't happen. Keep your opinions but you won't change mine. You will never see me pick up my Black Timber with my bare hand for any reason, I'll use hooks and tongs for years to come.

[SCReptiles]

chuck, c'mom man....i agree with you.......but do not tell me that people arent influenced (especially by people who are considered pros)
Well, I can’t speak for all free handers, but I always give a disclaimer when I do it in front of people or show them a picture. I think the croc hunter’s wife always says “don’t try this at home. Steve has magic over the snake.” =) If your point is people are influenced by us, then they should be influenced by the disclaimer. We tell them it’s dangerous and not to do it. You can’t say that they are influenced by us and at the same time say they will ignore the disclaimer??? That defies logic. Brain and a few others are always claiming there are consequences to free handing and in the interest of presenting both sides of the argument: behold my friend, Bud. About to suffer a consequence. =) By the way, he tells me that he no longer handles cottons. Ha ha So, if you say pics of me freehandling encourages people to do it, by that same token, this picture of Bud should by all means discourage the practice. True?

[Mustangrde1]

Yes people are responcible for thier own actions no doubt.Yet for someone to go on the TV The Movies and use unsafe handling practices is wrong and unfortunately """""" KIDS""""""" try to mimic them. How many of us as kids tried to be our heros and immitate what they did.I dare just one person to say they didnt try in one form or another. Adults get what they deserve from thier own stupidity.Children on the other hand do not have the MENTAL or Emotional respocibility or the reasoning to see the potential danger of thier actions.I know as a kid i tried to play Superman one time and ended up breaking my wrist and another tried being Evil Knevel<sp>and broke the same darn wrest and a leg to boot.My parents were very responcible people and tried to watch over me best they could. However I still did the things that were dangerous to them but to me I was just being my hero. None of us have a Tv show or a Movie.However I am sure if anyone here did they sure would not freehandle or atleast I would hope they would not ,Bottom line is no matter how good you are no matter how lucky you have been.If people are around you should not freehandle. What you do in your own home by yourself is your bussiness . what you do around others can leed to problems.

[fatboy]

Originally posted by Mustangrde1
If people are around you should not freehandle.
Why? Get off your high horse. Yeah, I do understand the point about kids but I watched National Geographic and never tried to catch venomous and have been catching reptiles since I knew what one was.

[SCReptiles]

None of us have a Tv show or a Movie.
Actually I am on television on a regular basis. I am also a professional wrestler. And we are often blamed when kids break their necks. I knew some democrat would bring up the children, so I already covered that. It’s up the parents to filter what they see if they are unable to process it for what it is.

[Mustangrde1]

I will stay on the High horse of saftey always.

And what the _ _ _ _ does Politics have to do with anything in the conversation of safty.

[cobraman]

Jeremy, Thank you for the exclusion :) actually, you make very good points, I need to go back and read this entire thread and see who is rationalizing free-handling elapids. Not a good idea! I will say that it is much easier to immunize with elapid venoms, but again, self immunization is no license to be stupid. Blessings, Ray

[BWSmith]

How come everyone posts in clumps? I was out on a snake call and then dinner and we are on page 5! OK, let me just address them as they come in order.

Hog wash! Pure and simple. Regardless of what the liberals want us to believe, people of a reasonable age and mental capacity are responsible for their own actions. If they are not of reasonable age and/or mental capacity, then they have a guardian who is responsible for filtering what they see or explaining what they see in terms they can understand. Me, Ray Hunter, and Steve Erwin are not responsible for other people free handing, no more then rappers are responsible for their fans shooting people, or heavy metal bands for their fans committing suicide. Make a note of this point : people are responsible for their own actions and/or the actions of their unemancipated dependents. I challenge anyone to present evidence to the contrary.

As I stated (restating Mustange), "Inspiration" is a much better term. And very viable.

No one cares if a venomous keeper is bitten by his own snake
The papers do. And the papers influence the public. And the public influence the poloticians. The poloticians make the laws.

If Steve Irwin got swallowed by a crocodile tomorrow no one would lobby for new legislation.
Of course not! He is not an unknown. He is virtually larger than life. And the big thing .......................... he is not near them. We are.

As for taking responsibility for your own actions I think people should start stepping up to the plate and say, “My mistake”. Quit blaming McDonalds because you stuck a cup of hot coffee between your legs and spilled it.
I have seen noone do that. Not even referring to Irwin. They simply stated that they saw him do it and thought they could. Hence the term "inspiration". If they blamed him, we would have heard about a lawsuit.

Anyone willing to copy things they see other people do without knowing what the risks are deserve a few knocks in the head.
I agree. But how would you feel if someone died mimicking you, when all you had to do was DEMONSTRATE a little caution. If you don't want, then dont do it all the time. Just when someone is watching.

Just because someone takes his risks one step further than you does not make him irresponsible.
WHY would you want to add MORE risk? Is it the rush? We accept the potential repercussions of our hobby as hot keepers, but why would you WANT to ad more risk. Most of us do it out of love and dedication. What more is added by unsafe practices. Unsafe. Maybe that is the word I should have used rather than irresponsible.

To the ball python keeper we are irresponsible snake owners for keeping venomous.
You are correct, to some nonven owners we may be.

LET IT GO, PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not a chance in hell. I have dedicated everything I am to venomous. I eat, sleep and breathe it. ANYTHING I can do to protect the hobby will be done. It is your right to disagree with it, and I respect everyone's opinion whether I agree with it or not.

From an earlier post by Chuck:
To the best of my knowledge there are 3 digital pictures or me free handling. There are some older hard copies out there, but I can not account for where they might be. The 3 pictures in question were taken for very specific reasons. One is snake conservation. In my office and many other places I often hear the horror stories of how ferocious copperheads are…how they chase people down, you know the story. When I present pics of me holding these uncontrollable beasts, it quickly deflates these ludicrous stories. Also Bubbas love to impress chicks with the stories of how they slew killer copperheads. Usually by running them over or shooting them. Again, Bubba quickly looses his inflated ego when confronted with these pics.

Well, I can’t speak for all free handers, but I always give a disclaimer when I do it in front of people

From Fatboy:
Look, I have seen Chuck free hand Robert E. Lee on many occasions.
I hate to pick on ya Chuck, but I had to mention this or it would have driven me nuts. I realize that you mentioned pictures. But this is direct demonstration. And I have a real problem with that. Why would you freehandle in front a new hot keeper?

You will never see me pick up my Black Timber with my bare hand for any reason
Only you will know for sure. You may in fact practice safe handling. I don't know. Only you know. Hell, I found out recently that one of my very good friends that I have known and respected for years has freehandled. It don't have to be public to happen. But with a Timber, I should hope to God that you don't. I would hate to see a post from "One-Armed Fatboy". Horridus are nothing to take lightly. But I am sure that Chuck already banged your head with that. I am waiting for a neurotoxin project with Timbers, cause I got one that has a quicker kill time than a Cane or a freakin cobra.

Brain and a few others are always claiming there are consequences to free handing and in the interest of presenting both sides of the argument
OK, first of all, it is Brian, not Brain. I know it is an easy typo, but one of my pet peaves ;) Your following statements make a good point about detering freehandling. And I always love hearing both sides. I hate one sided conversations :D

What you do in your own home by yourself is your bussiness . what you do around others can leed to problems.
Precisely. If someone is going to practice unsafe (see? I changed it from irresponsible ;) ) handling, what is the purpose of showing it to others? As I said, "Doas I say, not as I do" is not real life. Mimicry is more common than taking advise. So I, for one, always try to portray the safest handling possible to others.

Why? Get off your high horse. Yeah, I do understand the point about kids but I watched National Geographic and never tried to catch venomous and have been catching reptiles since I knew what one was.
again, NEVER! ;) I simply stated my beliefs and opinions, and I will continue to do so. Anyone is welcome to start a thread "Venomoids Rock!", "Freehandling, Tools are for Wussies", "Or Beer and Rattlers, What's Better?". They are free to express those opinions just as you and I are are here. I do not consider myself to be on a "High Horse", though I will conciede that I am a Safety Nut and advocate for my rights to keep. I will grant that most cases of restrictions have been from escapes, but were those responsible keepers? Perhaps. Perhaps not. In my original post, what was off base? I am always open to interpretation, discussion and differing opinions. I may be the militant American Hot keeper here, but I try to keep my options open and welcome new information. I try to paint things blackand white, while I know there is a gray area, it is best if prospective or newbie keepers keep it black and white until they have more experience and can make rational judgements.

Actually I am on television on a regular basis. I am also a professional wrestler.
So THAT's why you use Spandex snake bags :D :D ;) He hehe.

It’s up the parents to filter what they see if they are unable to process it for what it is.
I agree 100%. But unfortunately, that is not reality. We have to tailor ourselves to the lowest common denominator. Chuck has done education, he knows what I mean. Just because people bred, does not mean they should have.

I need to go back and read this entire thread
Better pee first Ray, it could take a while ;)

I wouldlike to jump back for minute to GreggM's post:
I would just like to opologize to Chuck for the comment I made about his brothers........ It was a stupid thing to write so I took it upon myself to change the wording in the post....... Sorry for the ignorant remark........
I think that was very big of Gregg and some sort of reply would be great. But that is just me.

I have replied to alot of quotes and many kudos and critisisms. I would like to revert back to the original post that started all this. I would like to see a qoute to the original post with a specific rebuttal so that i may consider it directly. It gets very confusing when a thread gets this long. And off topic is fine, near-topic is better, but at this point I am forced to simply respond to resonses rather than direct rebuttalls. Still a great conversation. Let's all remember to keep it social (I probably have slipped ther more than any) and learn from each other. Everyone stay safe.

[BWSmith]

Wow, I just went back and read the whole thread. I gotta drink less coffee ;) And I am sorry if I offended anyone by comments. This never was directed at anyone in particular and has strayed from the original thoughts. Oh well, I just go with it. :D

[fatboy]

Umm BW....it's kind of hard to take a good picture and pay attention to the Southern Copperhead that you're holding at the same time.

[BWSmith]

A great picture. Of one of the few occasions I had to pin a Copperhead and someone was there with a camera.

[fatboy]

Originally posted by BWSmith
I hate to pick on ya Chuck, but I had to mention this or it would have driven me nuts. I realize that you mentioned pictures. But this is direct demonstration. And I have a real problem with that. Why would you freehandle in front a new hot keeper?
My last post was in response to this statement. I was telling you that I took the picture. I also think it is much better to have a "new" hot keeper in the room with you than someone with no experience. You preach safety and that was being practiced. :)

[BWSmith]

Ahhh, I understand now. I love the quote feature. Especially when a thread gets this long ;)

[fatboy]

Loving www.ssnakess.com. I fit in well because I love to argue.

[Jeremy]

Ok, it seems I have a much different opinion then most here on what exactly free handleing is. Personaly, I dont feel what Steve Irwin does consitutes true free handleing. Tailing would be a much better discription IMHO(granted he brings his hand alittle further up the body then I would). Any one who deals with large elapids does this to one degree or another. Myself included.

What I considor free handleing is what Bud was doing with cottonmouth in the pic Chuck provided (for the record I like Bud and have no arguements with what he does because he imunizes himself). Holding a hot like a freaken cornsnake. Thats just ********, sorry and if you dont imunize I think its just plain stupid.

Back to Irwin, the way he handles Crotalids I feel is absolutely ridiculous!! He takes way too many liberties with them and doesnt quite give then the respect they deserve. However, the man is a genious when it comes to reading the body language of a snake so I do give him credit for that. Ill bet ya 100 bucks though that if he ever gets tagged it will be from a Crotalid or Viperade!!!!

Anyway, again, do what you gotta do and what you are comfortable with but please try not to condone that sorta of handleing to everyone. If your good at it, great for you but someone else might not be. Beginers are impersionable, belve it!

Thanks for reading,
Jeremy

[BWSmith]

I dont consider Irwin a freehandler either. I think the original point of him coming up was to show that people are influenced by what respected herpers do.

[fatboy]

Originally posted by Jeremy
Anyway, again, do what you gotta do and what you are comfortable with but please try not to condone that sorta of handleing to everyone. If your good at it, great for you but someone else might not be. Beginers are impersionable, belve it!


I agree on the Irwin statement too. In response to this quote, I don't think any of us are condoning free handing any venomous reptiles. No reason to gripe at someone else about doing it though. If they feel like they have the "magic" or something---more power to them. I still hold firm that if I or anyone else with sense sees Roark Ferguson free hand his King Cobra into his enclosure, that I am not gonna think for a second that I could do it without being bit some seem to imply.

[Hamster of Borg]

Personally, I think half the responsibility of being a hot keeper is portraying the "hobby" in a positive light to the public. The shock factor of seeing someone free handle a king cobra is not what I would consider positive. The object is to instill a respect for the animals in the laymen. Playing on their fears does not do that and never will.

Secondly, protecting those around you. I've seen a picture of someone free handling a gaboon viper with his buddy standing next to him - well within strike range, grinning at the camera. If the animal struck, he'd never even see it coming. Not that one has much of a chance at seeing a gaboon viper strike anyway - but thats my point. If we're going to teach, we have to lead by example. We have to protect those people who simply don't know any better. Steve Irwin's "Leave snakes alone." message only goes so far.

And last, I think a good portion of it is knowing yourself. Knowing your own limits. Being able to stop and look at your own practices and say "Hey, maybe my methods are not for everyone, and maybe I should make sure anyone who wants to learn from me knows that."

Ham

[fatboy]

Originally posted by Hamster of Borg
And last, I think a good portion of it is knowing yourself. Knowing your own limits. Being able to stop and look at your own practices and say "Hey, maybe my methods are not for everyone, and maybe I should make sure anyone who wants to learn from me knows that."
I can't speak for all but Chuck does explain the dangers of what he does to all that see any of the pictures.

[fatboy]

Oh and only a couple have ever seen it live and that was being the photographer. He is very safe and skilled at what he does and has vast knowledge.

[Mustangrde1]

I think one thing we forget to mention as do many who see some of these people on tv or print is the outstanding work that some of them have done to promote reptiles , and conservation.If you put aside all our views and takes on everyones handling be it good or bad, they are leaders in conservation work.Iwould love to see more of this conservation work and breeding programs put on the TV. I would personaly love to see more people get involved in some of the great groups we have here in the U.S. that work in Conservation.Might be the ticket to restorring some of the habitat thats been lost.

As a hunter and fisherman I have had the great pleasure to work with some of the many of these groups.All the sweat . blood . and aches are well wourth it to see the animals return to their native range and or habitat. It was always a good time as a child because it gave me time with the people i loved and respected.Quality time spent learning and learning to respect what the man upstairs gave us.

[BWSmith]

Yes. Most of the hot keepers I know do not do education. I think that is a shame. I have been lax this year (only around 40 hours of education), but I have a wedding in a few weeks and I cannot spare a weekend.

But I agree, one other thing should be added to my original list:
- If the prospective mentor does public education on hots, it is a bonus.

[cobraman]

Brian, I have the perfect wedding gift in mind. Which airport shall I Delta Dash this to??? :)

[cobraman]

a preview of your wedding gift:D

[BWSmith]

LOL Ray. ;) I actually did tell people that I like it when my gifts rattle :D

[cobraman]

Not a problem, I'll super glue a baby rattle to the tail.

[BWSmith]

:D

[fatboy]

Funny stuff. Maybe a stupid question, but what kind of snake is that?

[BWSmith]

Black mamba.

[cobraman]

Oh no, I thought it was a baby black racer, and was free handling it. (just kidding------maybe)

[Mustangrde1]

Hmm that baby looks familiar.Isnt it the rare form of eastern Black racer released after Andrew hit.

[fatboy]

Hahaha, knew it wasn't a racer.

[cobraman]

Actually it is a new form of giant dwarf melanistic anaconda

[Mustangrde1]

Oh no the"A " word now im trembling someone hold me save me im afraid.

[BWSmith]

wtf is a giant dwarf? LOL ;)

[fatboy]

LMAO:)

[Mustangrde1]

Brain a giant dwarf is the same as a snake that is het for legs and arms...

[cobraman]

Wait a minute, Scott. I got a king cobra that's het for billy goat!!!

[Linds]

Got to this thread a touch late, but...

BW,
I thought that was an excellent post and not at all negative, just expressing the caution and seriousness involved in working with hots. The last thing this hobby needs is a bunch of people that do not have all the precautions and do not realize how serious it is, or that were poorly educated on working with them creating more problems. The last thing you need to hear is a hot on the loose, or a kid getting nailed. I personally do not have any interest in working with hots, but if I did, that post sure wouldn't have warded me off! ;)

Originally posted by SCReptiles
Well, give other people as much credit. You know better then to do something like that and so do they.

LOL be careful with the credit thing. If there is one thing I have learned working with reptiles and people together, is that you always have to err on the side of caution, no matter how basic a concept it may be, some people just won't get it! Take that moron that thought it would be a great idea to kiss that rattler and got bit in the lip, perfect example right there. There are a lot of people out there that don't deserve equal credit, and their are enough "monkey see, monkey do" people out there to make note :rolleyes:

[Mustangrde1]

Het for Bliiy Goat. Did it get out and in to the niebors pasture , Nevermind self explanatory , it would then be het for Horse. On a more serious not however Ask Dr Dale what the price on 1.1 rare phase normal ball pythons would be just to see his reation lol.

[fatboy]

I have still only heard of that one person trying to kiss the snake and getting bit....guess there is less monkey-do people than was thought. :)

[cobraman]

trust me, it is not as isolated as you may think. Just because it may not make CNN does not mean it does not happen. I have seen many cases that never made the news or internet. It happens to some degree or another more than you may think.
Peace
Ray

[MudBoy]

Hi everyone.
Im late in on this thread but I will give my ideas on it.
First off, re the crock hunter, for gods sake its all set up!!
I deal with the people that do his films with him and I mean I deal with em every week.
most of those snakes are found the day before or more and cooled down and handled long before steve even gets to see em.
Dont get me wrong the guy knows his stuff but for film, most of it is just that ITS JUST FOR FILM!!!!
He is no fool and this is how he makes his living, WOWING the people that can be WOWED!!.
I dont know if you guys got the video over in the US but have a look for "Dangerous Australians" and check out the tipan take!!
Its a mate of mine from just up the road "Rob McCleod" , A true Aussie hot specialist, and all the work in that film was done by him!
Dont believe what you see or hear on TV, most of it is crap for the masses and if you own hots you should know that.

And the guy from SCReptiles, you speak **** my friend. You are a danger to new herps and man in general!!
You compare our pets to rappers with guns!!! for gods sake man wake up!! ITS A BLOODY SNAKE, it will bite your butt just out of instinct, not because you have the wrong colours on or listen to the wrong music.
You keep shouting STEVE ERWIN'S name in this thread but I tell you he would knock you on your butt and call you a dickhead for the crap you are teaching here.
You talk about people being responsable for there own actions well what about the hundreds of thousands of people that die every year from lung cancer but how many STILL smoke!!!!

You like to free handle hots?? Well come over here and I will give you a nice lil death adder to play with. The fastest human reaction ever recorded was an english cricket player at 1/28th of a second, a death adder moves 2/3rds of its body in the strike at 1/250th of a second and is the 3rd most deadly snake in the world!!! come and free handle one of those!!

Give it away while your still kickin buddy and buy a carpet python!

Rick.

[SCReptiles]

And the guy from SCReptiles, you speak **** my friend. You are a danger to new herps and man in general!!
I find your comments to be absolutely offensive and made with very little understanding of the facts at hand. And what is a new herps?

You compare our pets to rappers with guns!!! for gods sake man wake up!! ITS A BLOODY SNAKE, it will bite your butt just out of instinct, not because you have the wrong colours on or listen to the wrong music.

I compared the personal responsibility issue. Read it again, or perhaps have someone explain it to you. And we do not consider hots to be pets.

You keep shouting STEVE ERWIN'S name in this thread but I tell you he would knock you on your butt and call you a dickhead for the crap you are teaching here.

I use the name purely because I was grouped with him and Ray Hunter. Not because I am attempting to gain credence thru there names. I personally would not group myself with either. I am a hobbyist, they are professionals who earn their living in this field. And rest assured, no, he would not knock me on my butt and after meeting me in person I doubt he would even care to try.

You talk about people being responsable for there own actions well what about the hundreds of thousands of people that die every year from lung cancer but how many STILL smoke!!!!

I have no pity for them. they choose to smoke, in fact your example proves my point. And if you can’t spell responsible, I doubt you know what is means.

You like to free handle hots?? Well come over here and I will give you a nice lil death adder to play with. The fastest human reaction ever recorded was an english cricket player at 1/28th of a second, a death adder moves 2/3rds of its body in the strike at 1/250th of a second and is the 3rd most deadly snake in the world!!! come and free handle one of those!!

Have I ever said humans can dodge a strike? Why hell no. What are you reading? Are you drunk perhaps?

Give it away while your still kickin buddy and buy a carpet python!

You know a while back you made a post you would not longer be writing here. I recall telling you that you can still be of use. At the time I said that I was under the false impression you were reasonably intelligent. I have now have seen the light and have changed my position, I think it’s better you take off. I realize my position on some of these matters is in the minority, but when I debate things in this forum it’s done with respect. You come in making outlandish and incoherent statements and threaten me with physical violence from the croc hunter???? And for your info, I am 15 years into this without a single bite. And further more, no one I have ever trained has been bitten. I will allow my record to speak for itself. You talk to me with respect and you will get the same in return, but frankly based upon your statements showing you complete lack of understanding to anything I have said, I am under the impression you are a fool, thus I really respect nothing you say.

[BWSmith]

Wow, I never thought this would happen, but I am speachless. I have no idea how to respond to the last two posts.

*shrug*

[Mustangrde1]

This is starting to look like some of the other web sites. Gentlemen their are novice keepers and kids and parents who come to these sights.Keep it clean and try showing a little respect to one another and everyone else that comes in here.This is not the place to get in to a mud slinging competition.

[Mike177]

Mud Boy,
there is no need to come on that strongly and criticize. i am not going to argue with anyone here about anyone and what they are doing but there is a way to respectfully show that you disagree with someones views. i am not trying to be MOM here but i think an apology is in order.

[Gregg M]

Mike, you dont understand the aussie way......LOL.......Its not as disrespectful as it sounds......LOL...... This is getting alittle out of hand on all sides...... I think we should all stop responding to this post and let it slide its way to the bottom........ most of the posters here have been keeping hots for over 10 years and we are all pretty set in our ways....... I think that everyone here is worth something and we can all learn a thing or two from others...... I for one do not want this to turn into one of the "other" forums on the net.......

[Matt]

This is getting alittle out of hand on all sides...... I think we should all stop responding to this post and let it slide its way to the bottom

i kinda agree with gregg....

by all means, i like the debates and the fact that we get so many different views, so if everyone thinks you wanna continue this, i have no problems with anything so far...and will leave it open for discussion

.....it just seems like its going in circles and nothing much is getting accomplished anymore,

so.....if anyone thinks this is getting redundent voice your opinon guys and I will leave it open for viewing but close the thread to any more responses!

let me know

[SCReptiles]

It has gotten sidetracked from what Brian wanted it to be, but as long as it is still pulling opinions, I see no need to close it. When is loses it’s heat it will flow on down on its own.

[JoeBradley]

Originally posted by cobraman
trust me, it is not as isolated as you may think. Just because it may not make CNN does not mean it does not happen. I have seen many cases that never made the news or internet. It happens to some degree or another more than you may think.
Peace
Ray


Well said. Every day people do not care if a snake keeper is bitten by his own hot snake.

[jay72]

I was having this discussion with a well known S. Florida snake handler who I worked under to get my venomous license and who does snake shows in the Everglades. Albert Killian has been handling venomous snakes for over 30+ years. If anybody has seen his shows, they will attest to the fact that he knows what he is doing and is not on a suicide mission. During his shows he regularly free handles large(13+) Malaysian King Cobras, followed by a kiss on their head. Albert understands these animals on another level (as does Ray) and states that it is easier for him to control a snake of that size "free handling" than with a hook. My point is that there are other points of view from people who do this professionally and we should not be so fast to judge someone like Albert, Ray or any other person that does this on another level.

Jay72

[cobraman]

VERY well put, Jay72, there are other perspectives to consider. I always like to look at all angles before forming opinions. I know Albert, and he is very skilled in his work.
Blessings,
Ray Hunter

[jay72]

Thanks Ray,

BTW, I am still looking for nice Malaysian King. I am going to try to get up to see you this week to see what you got in recently.

Jay72