Angolans and Pygmys...info please?

[GYMRAT2B]

I'm very interested in Angola Pythons as they are the closest next of kin to ball pythons. If their general care is similar to that of BP's, I'd like to know where I can get them (breeders/dealers) and what is a fair price for one or a pair?

I'm also interested in Pygmy pythons. I've only seen pictures of these RED beauties and I would like to find care sheets on them. I'm limited in space so smaller boids would be nice to have (as long as they're not difficult to feed - as in, I prefer to feed rodents than lizards or frogs). I've heard though, that with smaller boids whose neonates prefer lizards and snakes, feeder goldfish will suffice? Any info will be highly appreciated.

Thanks

[Jezabel]

You say you are limited in space, I hope you're not limited for $$$ Agolan are really rare and expensive. I never saw them availlable in canada. Casey lazik carry both of the speacies your looking for. Here his website: http://www.reptilia.com/

[Linds]

http://www.a1pythons.com/anthill.html

Here's a little info on the Pygmy Python (aka Anthill Python)

[GYMRAT2B]

Thanks for the info guys. I knew Casey Lazik carried both but since he was the only one I knew of, I thought there could be others. I know the big US breeders have them too, like NERD & RDR. Those guys actually have Anogolan Ball hybrids. If you haven't seen what they look like, they remind me of mini blood pythons. They're gorgeous! I've only seen pics of Angolans and as a species, they're also beautiful.. Imagine if one were albino or even red!!!

[Corey Woods]

Ralph Davis has an angolan female. He has not produced a hybrid angolan/ball........and I hope he never does! As far as I know NERD has the only angolan hybrid although I do know that other breeders in the USA have eggs in their incubators from this cross. IMHO it is a shame that they are doing this. I will have PURE angolans here one day that will remain pure!

Corey

[GYMRAT2B]

I see your point, Corey. For the most part I agree about keeping a species pure but now and again, if nature will allow hybridization, there may be a good reason. First of all Angolans have the same care as the Balls since they're from similar regions. The main difference is that Angolans are more from the Southern part of the continent. Their shape, temperament is also pretty similar so it's possible that one is a subspecies of the other. Who knows, maybe in the wild, where their respective ranges meet, there could be some hybridization going on.

An example for hybridization is crossing a pointer with a dalmatian. This was allowed by the AKC under supervision because due to limited bloodlines, Dalmatians were prone to epilepsy. Now breeding these two together did not alter the bone structure or shape of the dog. It just modified the color a bit. The pups from these were then bred to other dalmatians making the pups 3/4 dalmatian and so on and so forth. In short, this helped save the breed.

Now, a bad example of hybridization is breeding a ball python with a blood python. Not only are they from different countries but they have different needs. I was just told that this has already been done by some big name breeders but they are keeping it all hush-hush at the moment. As I was told, there's more than one set of Angolan balls - not all are from one breeder.

Personally, I love how Angolan balls look and reportedly, they don't have that same bad eating habits as the balls. I've heard horror stories of balls that just refuse to eat and waste away. Those stories aren't from novices but from serious breeders who lost some very high end pythons. So, yes, I still would like to own some Angolan pythons as well as Angolan Balls. I belive both are beautiful animals.

[Linds]

Well, I don't think there are really any good examples of hybridization. The problem with the purebred dogs was uncontrolled, careless inbreeding which gave the animal those faults in the first place.
Up here the red wolf was killed to near extinction, and, nobody made them to it under controlled conditions or anything, they started to breed with coyotes. They are both from the same range (obviously) and all that, but now the "pure" form of red wolf is compeltely extincit, there are only these hybrids running around now. So sad. When species start being hybridized, then down the lines you may never know if it is indeed a pure species anymore. You could pick up an angolan, and not be entirely sure that it is 100% angolan. IMO no species should be hybridized, ever.

[Jeff_Favelle]

But "species" is a man-made way of classifying animals. Taxonomy, binomial naming, etc etc, does not exist in nature. It is our way of grouping like animals into easy-to-manage categories. So what if DNA research concluded that Angolan's and Balls were in fact the same species? Would breeding then be ok? Would we go to a locality system like BCI's and GTP's?

What's the definition of a species? If it can interbreed and produce fertile offspring, its a member of the same species. Obviously this is an early, and flawed definition, but scientists still use it. If Angolans and Balls can interbreed and produce fertile offspring, then they have done it before in the wild and are not that far removed in terms of evolution.

But I still wouldn't do it. Ball Pythons = $150 Angolan Pythons = $$Much, much more$$!!

[GYMRAT2B]

Well, not to disagree or agree with you Linds, but if things happen in nature then so be it. You said man had hunted the red wolf and lessened it's population, but being that they are wild, man didn't put a red wolf in a cage with a coyote on purpose to make them breed. So if there's truly only red wolf hybrids out there, I'm sure a movement can be done to reconstruct them.

Now, I've worked with Chinese Shar-Pei. My very first champion was a granddaughter to the founding stock in the US that reconstructed the breed. To save the breed Dr. Law, in China, gathered as many of the dogs as possible that resembled or were called Shar-Pei. All of those that he exported to the US were all half-breeds/hybrids. It took a little while but the breed was restored to what they are supposed to look like. It's a small gene pool and it's sad that, for aesthetic reasons, the Shar-Pei clubs are only allowing solid colored dogs. The multi-colored (aka 'Flowered') dogs would have possibly contributed to a healthier gene pool. To offset this, some Shar-Pei/Chow hybrids were allowed to help with the inherited mange problems. Believe me, if you're working with a limited gene pool, you have no choice but to line breed. Inbreeding has been done carefully by some of the more knowledgeable people out there. To hear someone blast the efforts of purebred dog breeding is irksome. That's like saying no pitbulls should ever be bred because they're vicious. I know of Chihuahuas that have attacked more people than my sister's pit. Certain 'hybridization' within purebred dogs is necessary to save a 'breed'.


Personally, I wouldn't breed a Chihuahua to a Rottweiler, but it happened to my neighbor by accident. Would it happen in nature if they were running around in a pack? Sure, why not? They're the same species - different breeds - but the same species. Do I like mixed bred dogs? Not particularly because I believe each breed was created for a purpose, but regardless, if it will happen in nature, it will happen in captivity.

Being that I also work with parrots, I do somewhat agree with you that species should be kept as pure as possible since man is ruining their natural habitats all around the world. But once again, if subspecies interbreed with each other naturally, it will happen in the wild as well as in captivity. So in time (if it hasn't happened already in nature), macaws like the Catalina aka Rainbows ( Blue&Gold x Scarlet), Harlequin (B&G x Greenwing), Shamrock (Scarlet x Military), Miligold (Military x B&G), etc are going to happen whether we like it or not. Keep in mind, these macaws, like the wolves & coyotes or the many hybridized boas are all subspecies of each other. My personal pet birds are of the Psittacula species (Indian Ringnecks). Will they breed with the larger Psittaculas such as the Alexandrine? Yes. Not only has it happened but the Indian Ringnecks were able to pass on their color mutations on to the Alexandrines. Will a Psittacula species breed with a Poicephalus (Senegal)? No, it won't happen. That's like having a duck breed with a chicken or a peacock to breed with a canary.


Currently, I'm looking to purchase a 1.2 trio of pure Hogg Island Boas that are super clean. Some of the better specimens that I've seen offered so far are actually hybrids. Did I buy them? No. Would I buy an Angola Ball? Yes. It's all a matter of personal taste and what one will consider acceptable. Since Angolans and Balls could/would have crossed paths in nature then I don't have a problem with them hybridizing. Would/Could Hogg Island Boas cross paths with a Suriname or Columbian? Only if the earth moves the Hogg Island back to the mainland and attaches it together. Erego, no, I won't buy that hybrid - even though they are of the same species. Once again, if hybridization between Angolans and Balls are happening in the wild then it would also happen in captivity.

My original message in this thread is that I think the Angolan is beautiful. I would like to have a pair for myself. I have the $$ to purchase a pair...I just don't have excess space (that's why all of my cages are stackable). Should I not be able to get an Angolan but should an Angolan ball be offered to me, sure, I'll buy a pair as well. They're also beautiful. Jeff, thanks for understanding what I'm saying.