?????ReptiSand?????

[Wizer69er]

Hi i was just wondering everyones thoughts on ZooMed Reptisand for beardies?How is it for impaction compared to play sand?How old should a Beardie be before using repti sand if you feed in a seperate cage can they be younger?Thank you in advance B.J.:)

[eyespy]

I hate sand of any type, I've assisted at far too many necropsies and found way too much sand in digestive tracts. Even if they are fed in a separate enclosure it's startling how much sand they can store in their guts as a result of tongue-flicking and fine-grained sands such as Repti-sand are more likely to be picked up in a tongue flick than a medium-grained sand.

I'm very conservative and don't think dragons should be on sand at all, but if you feel there's no better substrate alternative at least wait until they are 12 + inches total length.

My friend David is a bowel resection specialist and he says he owes his beach house to keepers insisting that sand is "natural" and safe.

[drewlowe]

eyespy i know you have talked about it several times but what would be another alternative for sand other than newspaper or paper towels?

[eyespy]

Reptile carpeting, bed a beast, or wheat bran are all much safer options.

[Sean Day]

I personally would just use a fine grained play-sand, it would be way cheaper. I have used a type from Home Depot for 5 years without a problem.

Sean

[Wizer69er]

Do beardies have to be 12 inch to use sand or can they be smaller?

[reptilez]

people usually say 6 months and Eyespy said 12 inches

[Wizer69er]

just wanted to make sure about the size or age thank you

[eyespy]

Here's the amount of sand I flushed from an asymptomatic 5 week old dragon who was kept on sand, but not fed on it. She had no apparent problems but would have slowly starved to death over a period of years because the sand in her gut would have blocked the absorption of nutrients.

<img src="http://www.thebeardedlady.org/images/sand.jpg">

Sean, there are 2 types of impaction and one is very difficult to diagnose early. Chronic impaction occurs when sand clings to the intestinal walls and blocks food absorption. It usually takes at least 3 years before malnutrition kills the beardie and average age of death from chronic impaction is 5 years old. Chronic impaction is usually only seen on necropsy because there isn't enough solid matter to show up well on xrays or ultrasound while the dragon is still alive and most owners just figure it's "old age" that is causing the dragon to waste away once the fecal exams and bloodwork come back clear.

To see if the type of sand you are using is a risk for chronic impaction is very easy. Wet your hand and bury it in the sand. If the sand is fine enough to cling to your hand, dry grains will also cling to the moist walls of the digestive system. I've personally necropsied thousands of beardies who were killed by playsand accumulating in the gut.

So small beardies should NEVER, EVER be kept on sand in my opinion. I don't even allow prospective adoptive parents to keep adults on sand. I always take a stethoscope when looking at beardies and you can often hear the sand grinding in their guts if you listen closely enough.

We have yet to see a beardie kept on sand achieve an age of 10, most don't live past 7 years, but have over 400 patients kept on safer substrates that are over 12.

I hate sand. Almost 80% of beardies I see in surgery have significant sand in their guts and that kills very slowly and is a horrible death.

[reptilez]

where can i find wheat bran? what does it look like?

[eyespy]

You can buy wheat bran in feed stores or health food stores, it's not flakes like bran flakes, it looks like oatmeal except it's brown. It's a good idea to freeze wheat bran before using it to make sure it's not full of insect eggs that will hatch out under the heat lamps.

[Dragon_Slave]

Eyespy.. what do you think about ''Yesterdays News''??

[eyespy]

Yesterday's news? I'm not sure I understand.

Do you mean newspaper? I like it fine when it's printed with non-toxic soy-based inks but didn't mention it as drewlowe already had done so.

[Sean Day]

I don't no where my head was yesterday, I thought we were talking Leos. I would definitely take eyespys advice.

eyespy- Do you think all the impactions you are seeing could partly be caused by improper supplementation?

Sean

[Dragon_Slave]

Eyespy, sorry... Yesterdays News is a substrate made out of recycled newspaper. It comes in pellets, kinda like rabbit pellets but kinda big. It comes in a hard form and soft form, and I hear the soft form is the only form of it that should be used because the hard form is more compacted. I also heard that it helps get rid of the smells in the tank. Hmm...

[eyespy]

No, Sean, we analyze any blockages, plus well over 80% of sand impactions never form a blockage at all, it merely coats the intestinal walls and prevents the proper absorption of food. Dehydration is sometimes an issue but even that doesn't account for the bulk of the cases.

Chronic sand impaction is nearly as big an issue for leos as it is for beardies. Very few reptiles can actually deal with loose sand grains, sand boas being a very rare exception. Heck, sand impaction kills horses and elephants too, although it's called sand colic in mammals.

What we generally find is sand mixed with bile salts, digestive juices, and bits of undigested food. Rarely is there any buildup of powdered supplements found in the detritus, and even more rare is a true mineral deficiency which caused the beardie to eat sand. Between 1995 and 2000 (the only years in which morbidity stats were computerized) I necropsied around 1,350 sand impaction cases and maybe 50 or 60 were found to be sand eaters, all the rest were a slow buildup over time. The way you can tell the difference is if the digestive juices are only on the outside of the clump or mixed all the way through.

[Sean Day]

I just find it hard to believe that I and many other people that have used sand much longer then I are just lucky.
I have a leo that is close to 8 years that has been on sand since a hatchling without showing any signs of impaction. I must admit that I don't put them on sand until around a year though.
Excluding the 50 or 60 that were sand eaters, what was the average age of the rest. I am not trying to debate the sand no sand issue as that has been done to many times. Just trying to figure out why so many have problems and so many others don't.

Thanks
Sean

[eyespy]

Average age at time of death is 5 years of age, chronic impaction is a disease which basically kills by inches.

As far as knowing whether you've had problems or not, death is usually the first clinical indication of a chronic impaction and only a necropsy thorough enough to slit the intestines open rather than just a visual examination diagnoses it. So it's mainly large teaching hospitals that see these cases, the average vet doesn't go into that level of detail on necropsies.

[cornsss]

hey, when you guys say no less than twelve inches, are you talking SVL or tip of the nose to the tip of the tail?

[Dragon_Slave]

12 inches in TOTAL length, not snout to vent. :)

[eyespy]

I've never heard the brand name Yesterday's News but it sounds similar to the Breeders' Choice substrate that is so popular in Australia and the Aussie herpers seem to consider it the substrate of choice.

I wonder if the odor control thing is just because any cellulose product aborbs odors, or because of a chemical treatment, that would be my main reason for caution.

[Dragon_Slave]

I'm don't think I will be using ''Yesterdays News''... it's about the same price as Calci-Sand($12 for a bag that I would need about 5 of, lol)... which is WAY too expensive. I've had great luck just using reptile carpeting. :)

[reptilez]

Ive been using play sand with my adult male for about 2 years. Is it still to late for me to change the substrate to something more sutibule? Will he live longer then 5 years?
-Reptilez

[Dragon_Slave]

It's hard to say if it's too late... but I guess it's never too late to TRY! :)