Panacur Effects?

[Samba]

Hey guys, I just wanted to ask you guys what more I should do to encourage my little baby to eat. I got her on March 22, 2003, and she weighed about 7 grams (at about 3 months of age). Pretty tiny!

Anyways, when I first got her (I think it's a her), she ate willingly, and in fact, 4 hours after settling into her new home she ate 7 mealworms (the small ones), and even took two from my fingers. When Darwin was diagnosed with tapeworms, my vet recommended that I dose the Baby and Girl too.

Well, I dewormed the baby, (I haven't dewormed Girl yet because I'll be breeding her soon... not sure what effects the medicine could have on developing eggs, etc.) and since then she hasn't wanted to eat on her own. The first dose of Panacur she received on June 03,2003 and her last dose of Panacur received was sometime around June 13, 2003. She acts normal, and drinks regularly, but has no interest whatsoever in live foods. If I assist feed her (put them in her mouth) she'll chomp down and swallow as if she caught it herself =)

I've tried warming her cage, soaking her, she has everything should could possibly need, and I spoil her rotten. I can't figure out why she won't eat. I don't want her to be the second casualty from my vet, (who I am no longer using, by the way). Right now she eats a few 1/2 inch crickets every other day, but still weighs about 10 grams. Her tail is thin, but not extreme. Any suggestions? I know a lot of people have problems getting their leos to eat, but I can't help but think this is a result of the Panacur. Thanks in advance!

[Pixie]

I have to say that from my experiences, I will never use Panacur on my geckos for deworming or any other possible reasons. In my case, I had one 6-7 month old leo myself and brought 2 home from the April show, one from a trade and 1 I had purchased.

After settling in, the one that I had purchased I noticed did not have much of an appetite and runny stools, my first thought was internal parasites and they were all brought to the vet with the runny stool sample. There were some worms and a treatment of Panacur was prescribed to all, for the affected one and to be sure for the other two.

The affected one really didn't do well and lost a fair amount of weight. She never got emanciated but her tail was definitely slimmer than average and she was totally anorexic and needed to be force fed. The other two lost their appetites almost entirely during the treatments and for some time after. The sick one eventually passed a few weeks later and it took a few weeks for the other two to regain their appetites which was only recently.

I have spoken with other leo owners that have dealt with Panacur themselves and I have only heard negative things about this said medicine. It may be better suited for other species or snakes but it is quite apparent that it is not beneficial to leos.

Pixie

[The_Omen]

It all depends on the type of parasites and the prescribed treatments..
Some parasites will need flagyl to eradicate, others need panacur.

Some vets have no clue about how to dose and administer either in reptiles.

There is one on another forum, whos leo got pinworms, no problem for panacur to flush out, BUT the vet was only prescribing treatment every two to three weeks instead of a once a week regimen.(once a week until the stool is clear of all signs of worms)
All it did was slow them down and let them continue decimating the leo.

You can feed the leo plain yogurt to help with the replenishing of the gut flora during the treatments as any meds in an animal that small seems to deplete them.
B12 is also a great appetite stimulant, drops in the water, mixed in the yogurt or dripped into the mouth will work, but I have had better successes with injectible B12.
Also, are you feeding it in its cage or in a seperate, smaller box?

A smaller box will keep the food a lot closer to the leo and lets it hunt easier (if needed)

One last quick question -
What type of substrate do you have it on?

[Pixie]

The Omen,

Thanks for the great info! I would like to ask a couple more questions if I may.

When I was prescribed Panacur for my leos, my vet did seem to have taken great care in dosing them properly. The doses were quite small ranging from 0.02 to 0.04 ml depending on the weight of the gecko. What I am wondering is if the proper treatment course was prescribed to me as it seems to differ greatly from what you indicate in your above post.

I was told to give the Panacur to each gecko for 5 days consecutively then 10 days off and then 5 more days with Panacur. Does this sound like an effective way to treat parasites in geckos???

I am planning to purchase some Parazap in the near future as it sounds like an interesting preventative and mild treatment.

Pixie

You mention a weekly treatment, is this one dose of Panacur a week until the stools are normal again? This would sound to me a more sound treatment but then again I am quite clueless in medical care for reptiles.

Does replenishing the gut flora with yogurt aid in appetite stimulation alone? Where would one find vitamin B12 drops?

[Samba]

Omen- My baby leo, (like all my leos) is housed on paper towels. Since s/he is no longer volutarily eating, I am assist-feeding him/her. Once I place an insect in her mouth, (this is done by gently pulling at her lips... then inserting the insect partially); s/he usually eats it without problems. Just like a human baby, when she gets full, she'll refuse food, and spit out insects.

I have been doing this since she started Panacur treatments. Her dosage was .05Cc everyday for 10 days. Since deworming, her appetite has not returned as of yet. I do encourage her to eat in a variety of ways. I have tried leaving insects in her dish, but they remain unconsumed. I 'starved' her for 5 days, with no results. I do give her chicken baby food about once a week to try and fatten her up. Everytime I feed my other gecko, I try to encourage the baby to eat.

Just as with Pixie, I had three geckos go to the vet, and one came back positive for tapeworms. That gecko, (Darwin), and the baby were wormed right away. I didn't worm Girl, my female albino, because I expected to breed her for the first time this year. Darwin passed away on June 16 of this year, and prior to treatment, had been a normal gecko. Even still, he weighed 37 grams at his death, he lost about 20 grams over the course of his treatment with Panacur. Now the baby doesn't want to eat, and I am scared of losing her too.

In the past, B12 has helped my geckos regain appetite but I really fear that going to the vet for an injection may cause the baby more harm than good. As I said before, the baby is bright, alert, and active, just not eating. Her weight hasn't dropped signifigantly, but she has lost. I need some ideas here. I think based on what I've learned, and from my experiences with Panacur, I don't think I would use that drug again. What other deworming options are there for leopard geckos? Any without extreme side effects? Thanks again for all your help!

[drewlowe]

Samba

Panacur does cause appetite loss.

I just bought a new book since i'm having a hard time with loki. It's called " Understanding reptile Parasites" by roger j. Klingenberg D.V.M. I haven't read the whole thing cause it just arrived yesturday but i will write what it has about panacur.

Panacur is a member of the important benzimidazole group of anthelmintics which also includes Thiabendazole (TBZ) and Mebendazole(Telmin). Panacur is a broad-spectrum anthelmintic that has a direct effect on adult parasites, some activity againstAgainst migrating larvae, and ovicidal effects brought on by the Prompt sterilization of the aduld worms. Hving effects on migrating larvae, and sterilizing adults so no more eggs are passed, are very important properties. MOst anthelmintics are activfe against adults only.

This group of drugs is extremely safe, with panacur having a margin of safety up to 5,000 times normal dose in mammals, To the author's knowledge, a reptilian death direclty associated with the use of panacur in sankes, lizards, or turltes has never been reported.

Panacur is the drug of choice for nematode parasites. While it also exerts an effct on tapeworms ( cestodes), it is not the drug of choice for them.


Droncit
Various drugs for use with tapewors are listed in the literature. The drug of chooice is Droncit, which is doesd a 5 mg/kg. either as an injectable or as a tablet crushed and mixed with a liquid and tubed. Droncit has also shown some efficacy against extra- intestinal forms of tapeworms and also aginst flukes.

thats as far as i read last night if i find anymore info that may be helpful i'll let ya know. you might also want to look into this book. So far it is helping me understand some of the stuff going on.

I'm also learning about my vets mistakes. In this book it say to give panacur once a week for a few doses until the worms are completely gone. Minimum of 3 weeks.

This book is going to make me and my vet argue. I hope he is prepaired. LOL

[drewlowe]

here are the doses that panacur should be given in.

25-50mg/kg or 10-20 mg/ob, given orally once every 7 days. An alternative dosage regimen is to give 50/mg/kgsplit into 3 consecutive daily doses (15mg per day X 3 days) and then repeating this regimen in 10 days. It generally requires a mininmum of 3 treatment to eliminate nematode parasites.

[The_Omen]

I was told to give the Panacur to each gecko for 5 days consecutively then 10 days off and then 5 more days with Panacur. Does this sound like an effective way to treat parasites in geckos???

Sounds like you were told to give it every day for 5 days?
Wow..Sounds like 5 days of over dose to me...

Usually once a week at the normal dose per leo weight, checking stool weekly, and continuing once a week till clear is good.

Their metabolism is too slow to be able to handle the meds on a daily basis, unlike humans, which need daily meds, most likely in multiples, due to our high metabolism.


The plain yogurt is a two fold device.
It helps nourish the animal to get stronger and the bacterias in it, help replenish the naturally occuring flora in the animals stomach.
When it gets stronger, it will usually be able to eat more and handle it better.

B12 is available at most pet stores here, but as a limited strength ingestible drops from Tetra, labled as 'Stimulap'.
It is a mix of B1, B12 and water and flavoring.
Oral only with it as well.
But I have had very limited successes with the watered down orals..

Now I use an injectible (available at most feed & tack stores) called Maxi-B 1000, that has B1, B2, B6 and B12 together.
For it to be used on a leo.. I would draw about two drops into the syringe and then draw injectible saline into the same syringe till I was at the second line of a 1cc diabetic syringe (thin tubed.. )

It won't take much for a leo.

Jump Start, may be available for you as well, just follow the directions on the tube.
It has vitamins, fat, trace minerals etc. and is an oral type gel (salve)

Here's a quick pic of most of it so that you will recognize it.
From left to right -
Stimulap, injectible saline(on top of baytril), the syringe size i use, Jump Start and in the back Maxi-B (brown bottle)


http://photo.redtailboa.net/albums/Eddies-pics/Image004_001.jpg

[drewlowe]

i love jumpstart!!!! my geckos don't mind eating it at all.

Loki is give her parazap (recommended doses) and jumpstart everyday.

[The_Omen]

Drew,
what are the dosing rates for parazap? (mg of parazap per mg-kg of animal)
I have seen it and heard of it being used with good effects, but have never tried it.

[drewlowe]

ummmm i'm not a vet so i don't know exacly the dose rates. I'm just now trying to understand the medical side of this.

I was told by the owner to give my sick leo 1mg for 7 days on 7 days off then 7 days on again but that only because she is so sick. Then after that 1mg for the first five days of every month as a prevenitive. He says since it's natural that you cant ovedose i don't think that true though. but i know during treatment they cannot be given water.

If you would like here is the site www.parazap.com i think it has a dosage amount somewhere but i belive the amount is in pounds so you will have to convert it.

As a side note Samba i highly recommend you check into this along with all other reptile keepers. If you have seen the post on loki then you will understand why i'm boasting this product so much. She ate 1 huge butter worm 3 days ago and 2 last night. she isn't gaining any weight yet but her belly is actually filling out which i belive to be the first step to improvement. all of this i belive is due to the use of parazap, before she was given this natural remedy she had not eaten for at least 4-5 months. and within the second day of treatment she ate for the first time. She also loves the taste of this stuff (it also smells good) she will gulp it down along with some jumpstart at the same time. (I'm giving her jumpstart to try to get some kind of other nutrients in her). and this is a leo that absoutly REFUSED to eat everything.

[The_Omen]

Thanks Drew!

[WingedWolf]

Yeah, I think panacur is still the safest and most reliable de-wormer. It most likely makes them feel sick to their stomachs! <lol>
But consider, while the panacur may make them feel unwell, the parasites will eventually do a lot worse. I'd think it'd be better to get through the temporary downturn caused by the medication, and then they can enjoy good health after they recover from the treatment.

[eyespy]

Dosages are dependent not only on the type of parasite found, but also on how much. I've medicated leos on a 7 days on, 7 days off regimen when they were absolutely riddled with nematodes and they did quite well. A gecko with a minimal infestation would probably have been poisoned from such a high dose but when there are literally tens of thousands of live worms in the intestines eating the med before the gecko gets a chance to absorb it there's not nearly as much overdose risk.

High dosages in my experience work very well if there are at least 150 to 200 nematode eggs spotted on a fecal float slide. I've seen slides with upwards of 1,000 eggs and no way is a once a week dosage of 0.05 to 0.1 ml going to make a dent in an infestation that big. Some common strains of nematodes are beginning to develop resistance to Panacur from underdosing like that.

On slides where 10 or fewer eggs are seen I use the once per week for 2-3 weeks and get good results from that. Anything more would overtax the geckos system as there aren't enough parasites to "preabsorb" the med.

I always let experienced vets evaluate the slides and the weight/health/stress status of any animal before we decide on dosage schedules together. But I realize not everyone has the luxury of vets popping by the house at least once a week.

[Samba]

Thanks for all the info, guys! Jaime, I can't wait to order that parazap! If it'll make my geckos hungry enough to eat that would be all the blessings I need! Everyone has been given different dosages for their geckos (with the Panacur). Most of you say once or twice every other week or so. I was told to give Darwin .20Cc of Panacur everyday for 10 days. Is that too often a dosage? Maybe that is what caused his liver failure? =(

Anyways, the baby still isn't eating. Personally, I think she acts spoiled, but it could be her appetite hasn't returned. If you have any more updates or advice, I'd love to hear it. Thanks again!

[Samba]

Just a question... Does anyone have an idea on how long it takes a leopard gecko to recover it's appetite after being dewormed with Panacur? It's been over a month and I'm still assist-feeding my baby. =/ If you've had this experience, please inform me! Thanks!

[drewlowe]

samba for my other 6 leos that were given panacur for all the full doses. It took about 3-4 weeks for them to finally get their appetites back. now they are all eating like little piggies. I should post a pic of rouge or speedball cause those 2 are huge.

Hoped that helped a little. Just remember loki is a special case. not every leo that takes panacur ends up like her.

[eyespy]

It's really tough to say whether the Panacur caused liver damage or whether it was the parasites themselves or some entirely unrelated thing. Liver disease is the number 1 killer of captive herps and there are so many different causes of it, it's tough to say with any surety unless the necropsy included deep tissue analysis of the liver to see if there was an excess level of Panacur found.

Just the waste products pumped out by a heavy parasite load is enough to cause liver failure so the condition may have existed before Panacur was ever given.

[Samba]

I know, Eyespy. I have had the vet hold onto Darwin's liver so that when I get the money I can find out, once and for all, what casued his death. We really don't think it was the Panacur as much as we suspect the Droncit. There is some dosage inconsistencies that could have over-dosed him. We'll keep you posted when we do have the toxicology done. I also suspected that toxic shock (from the dead bodies of all the parasites) could have also caused his liver damage. We just won't know until we get the test done. As for the baby, I don't know what to do. This is getting really frustrating, I've tried just about everything in the book to try and get her to eat. What really irks me is that she'll consume if I put the darn worms in her mouth!

[Alicewave]

Samba, about the apetite, sometimes you have to withhold the assist feeding before the apetite will return. Make sure the gecko has a good enough fat store to last a couple weeks without food and offer fresh mealies in a dish everyday until you start to see some missing. But leave her alone. Don't wiggle food in front of her and hope she takes it. For me that never worked. Sometimes assist feeding can stifle the feeding response so you basically have to "starve" them til they realize they have to hunt for themselves again.

Of course always monitor it's health if you think it can't last go back to assist feeding til it gets bigger and try again. Another thing you can try is a product called "JumpStart" just before the "withholding" period. It's supposed to be an apetite stimulant. This method worked really well with Aurora. It took her at least two weeks to start eating on her own. Once she did she was eating like a horse. Be patient and as long as there is still a decent bulge to the tail hold out. (unless of course you see other signs of ill health). I had assist fed aurora up to 35 grams and she dropped back to 25 til she ate on her own. I worried like hell but it was worth it. Good luck.

[Samba]

Thanks, Meg. I have starved my baby (it killed me!) Yesturday I couldn't take it any longer and fed her (this is after about two weeks). The first time I starved her was for five days. She lost a little weight, and it scared me, and I felt so guilty for not feeding her! I had a problem with JumpStart a few years back, and am hesitant about using it again. Currently my baby is about 8 grams, (she was around 10 when I bought her in March). She acts like a normal gecko, she just won't eat. I hope she'll come around soon because this is really bothering me, especially after losing Darwin. =( I keep careful notes on how much she eats, what she eats, and when, as well as when she deficates. I can't really find anything wrong with her, so I'm guessing it's the Panacur. I spoke to her breeder not too long ago, and he said if something happened to her he'd replace her, but I don't want to lose her at all. She's negative for worms now, so this is really confusing. Thanks for the advice, I'll keep you guys updated.

[Alicewave]

Only 8 grams! wow. That's how big Aurora was when I rescued her. She was 6 months at the time. I had to syringe feed Enteral insectivore for two months before I was confortable letting her try to feed on her own. Enteral Insectivore is probably better nutrition than worms anyway so I would suggest you just go with that for a while until she is bigger. This way you can be sure all the nutrients she lost with her bout of worms and from the Panacur are fully restored before you let her eat on her own.

[drewlowe]

Originally posted by Alicewave
Enteral Insectivore is probably better nutrition than worms anyway so I would suggest you just go with that for a while until she is bigger. This way you can be sure all the nutrients she lost with her bout of worms and from the Panacur are fully restored before you let her eat on her own.


alicewave where can you get enteral insectivore at and how much does it cost??? it would be helpful for loki to have some of this stuff. thank you for any information.

[Alicewave]

It's from the US but she has shipped to Canada. It's not expensive and doesn't take long. I don't think you can order online yet but go to www.herpnutrition.com the number is right on the site, you can call in an order, may have to leave a message for her to get back to you. She's a reptile nutrition specialist.

[Samba]

Jaime-Enteral Insectivore was originally recommended to me by Meg. I bought a lot of the stuff for about 13 bucks. I think one bag is like 3 bucks plus 5 dollars for s&h. Meg, I coat the mealworms with the Enteral Insectivore and Rep-Cal before feeding to her. Grrr, this baby is driving me nuts! I really hope she regains her appetite soon... =/

[Linds]

I know this is a bit off topic, but...

Originally posted by Samba

Well, I dewormed the baby, (I haven't dewormed Girl yet because I'll be breeding her soon... not sure what effects the medicine could have on developing eggs, etc.)

Unless you are positive that Girl is 100% healthy (this means free of parasites), breeding shouldn't be an issue. If there is any doubt (which it sounds like there is since you and the vet were considering treatment), she should be wormed and brought to condition first. A lot of parasites cannot be passed down from mother to baby, but some can.

[Samba]

Linds, thanks for the helpful advice. Girl was dewormed when I first got her over a year ago, then six months ago. When preparing to breed my geckos, I always get them a vet check. That was how I discovered that Darwin had tapeworms. Furthermore, all of my Leos are housed separately. Girl had a fecal done and was negative for parasites, the vet only recommended dosing her with Panacur again because I was treating Darwin and the baby. Girl is in the utmost health, and I am thankful for that, considering I've lost Darwin and am having difficulty with the baby. I still haven't bred her yet, as I am looking for another male. (The stud I was going to use also had worms at his vet check). Thanks again. =)