Question for Steve B

[Colonel SB]

Okay I wanted to know how many subspecies of V.albigularus are there? There are three I know of, next how can you tell them apart, and don't skimp on the technical data if need be...I am in love with V.albigularus and I just wanted a little more info thanks Darryl.

[Steeve B]

Darryl you are one lucky man! It so happens that M Bayless is top African varanids expert; I don’t know 5% of what this man knows on African varanids. Therefore I will let him respond to your post.
Rgds

[Colonel SB]

Here is on this site? Thats awsome! I can't wait, like I said I love V.albigs.

[markb]

Hello,
Thanks for the compliments and nice words....There were as of 1991 4 subspecies of V. albigularis types: V.a. albigularis (1802); V.a. microstictus (1893), V.a. angolensis (1933) and V.a. ionidesi (1964). In 1991 hemipenes studies suggested they might be monophyletic (= same), but was inconclusive. In 2000, I wrote a two-part article in REptiles (june-July) based on skull morphology and explaining overlapping scale counts for northern type (microstictus) vrs equatorial types (angolensis, ionidesi) vrs. south types (albigularis), and concluded they are ALL the same species, as originally described in 1802! The differences are from two points: distance north and south from equator and elevation dictate the scale count differences (= scale sizes and solar radiation being abosrbed by them consequently); the skulls of all albigularis from north in Egypt (1 specimen) to Cape South Africa are identifical in shape and morphology = same species, plain and simple. The equatorial types get larger as food availability are greater, and as food choice is larger, head size is larger for these animals, hence these animals reach maximum length of 7'3" (1961). I have seen a Tanzanian type albigularis 6'11" and that is ENORMOUS! and very docile! The woman fed it steak and mushrooms for dinner, and it ate off her plate - needless to say both were abit obese! haha.
Hope this helps...
markb

[Dragoon]

Hey Marko
A bit off topic here, but didn't you say before you didn't like skinny women? hmmm? ..so was this volutptuous varanid lover a former fling? hehehe

Thanks for the albig info. I'm a tad confused over the whole BT/ WT thing, I usually just skip those posts, as I can't see much difference between them.
So what you're saying is, the only difference between them is color? And color alone is not a taxonomic tool? Is it somewhat like the Ranch's zigzag albigs, being smallish and zigzagged runs in that family, but they are still just albigs?
Why do you not speak up when they argue over the differences between BT and WT on the other forum? If its the same species, those posts must seem real silly to you. Or do you personally feel they should be separate?
Just curious, as you are someone with all the data.
D.

[markb]

Hi D.,

As for the big women, that something a friend of mine started, which has NO basis of fact! haha....right now the only thing I like is oxygen, and need all I can get!

I don't know anything about this ranch zigzag thing pattern you speak of, but ALL albigularis are the same species, there are no subspecies. If you look at the distribution overlapping (Journal of Biogeography 29:1643-1704, 2002, authored by me) you will see there is no geographical partitioning anywhere across the African continent, hence no subspecies status is rational.

Geographical pattern is simply that, geographical pattern, and that helps local populations find one another, keep out of sight of their #1 predator, the Martial Eagle whose diet V. albigularis makes up 50% - depending on the habitat, savanna, miombo, mosaic, etc, different pattern are more advantageos in some areas than others - and there are patterns of V. albigularis you have not even begun to imagine that are well documented, but rarely ever seen in pet trade today (only imported 1 time 1992), thaty are common where they live, and fit their habitat well for their livelihood.

I do not post on kingsnake everytime there is a question about this, as I do not have the energy or inclination; it amazes me how much people say they are passionate about this varanus or that varanus but do not do their homework except the internet and do not read everything they can about this varanus or that - Im not saying they should read all the junk Ive got here - but I see very few attempting to at least review the more recent stuff, and merely want a quick answer - a t-shirt theme of varanus.net I believe, just feed them....are people forgetting how to read? Was George Orwell and Fahrenheit 451 predelictions correct? Im beginning to think they were....

just because I have alot of data does not mean I am right most or even much of the time - I have just reviewed more information than most, and can base my opinioins on more information. As for the practical, keeping varanids, I cannot keep them anymore as my health is again in a declining mode and doing so would be a diservice to keeper and the kept.....hope this answers some of your questions D...
markb

[Emily-Fisher]

Woah, Mark! That first post of yours was like reading jibberish! I hope that you don't speek like that in every day conversations ;)

[markb]

Hi emily,

No I don't talk like that in everyday conversations at all - I also talk about car racing, global politics, W.W.II, sex, and sometimes about monitor lizards, when people ask me about them. I can lay it on heavy as the above posts show, or blase too....but Daryl asked so I told him. My academic training (i.e. so called college)was in animal behavior - whales especially. Pretty good for a Pre-School teacher eh??
cheeers,
markb

[Emily-Fisher]

Haha, pre-school teacher? I would of never guessed :p high-school teacher, I would understand but pre-school? How did you end up there? :p

[Dom]

very interesting post MArk .. If you state that some scale size or head size differences do not account for either diferent species of subspecies then what is a viable diference .. what entitles them to their own clsification?

Basically .. what proof would be needed in order to classify these suposable 4 species..

Tx for your time
Dom

[Colonel SB]

Thanks Mark that was exactly what I was lookin for, here is my followup question. I have been dieing to get a Cape monitor for a long time but I want to get as much info as possible before jumping in. Also can you suggest any good books or reading, I love the more technical stuff, I have all the AVs books on monitors as well as the Barrons ones.

Thanks very much for your time!

[Dragoon]

Hey,
those Barron's and AV books are... well... kinda good for the pictures I suppose, but don't read any of the text or anything. It'll just confuse you. You NEED better books.
Two inexpensive books NOT written in the dark ages about monitors are:
Savanna Monitors by Ravi Thakoordyal
Nile Monitors by Rob Faust

You can get the nile book at any pet store, but for the Sav book, just email Ravi at Themonitorspot, he can send you one for $22 shipped. And nope, it doesn't matter what the title of the book reads. Common sense advice about monitors applies to all the species.
For more in-depth reading, get out your wallet, and order from the US:
Monitor Lizards by Daniel Bennett
Austrailian Goannas by Vincent
Monitors by King and Green

I'm sure there are others that are OK, but be warned, most varanid literature is already outdated. It is just within the last 10 years or so, the captive keeping of them has improved enough to permit breeding, and breeding is only the bottom rung on the ladder of keeping an animal well. Before that, people were happy to just keep them alive for a few years.
Expect more from your experience with them.

As a note to Mark, I wish you all the best fighting your war with your illness. It's sad to think you are not currently keeping the animals you have such enthusiasm for. I'd like to think , with all the current husbandry practices, you'd be in there with all the rest, with lots of varanids to hatch out and experiment with.
Lots of writing material! ;) Keep up the fight.
D.

[Colonel SB]

I have the Nile monitor one too forgot too ad that one, but I'll mail Ravi thanks :)

[markb]

Hi all,
Where do start? ah, for Emily, I was teaching high school, for 5 yrs, and no it was not science, it was cooking! and no I do not cook at all!! I went from high school to pre-school = same mentality, i.e. whining, crying about something, can't tie their shoes, run everywhere but don't know why?, and its where I started in 1980...and love it...its the only level where you can still teach, and coincidentally called baby sitting too! haha.

Now for Vara-books: NO book is outdated....only the information is well understood - but there is always room for reflection in any book. There were virtually NO Varanid books 10 years ago Dragoon, and forget 20 yrs ago, only the sporadic articles by Mike Balsai, Pete Strimple, Robert Sprackland, followed by myself, Daniel Bennett and of course Bernd Eidenmuller and George Horn - the latter two the Worlds BEST Varanid BREEDERS to-date!!
(argue all you want on this D, their info is written down for everyone to see and review, and learn from). For books Daniel Bennett's and Ravi Thakoordayal book on savanna monitors is excellent, Rob Fausts book on niles is fair, and the Barron's books are OK, forget the tfh books except for photos as mentioned above...the author of those books never kept monitor lizards, certainly not african species. As for technical papers on breeding the albigularis species there a plethora of sources written on them: Alberts (1994); Auerbach (1985); Bayless (1998); Branch (1990); Davidson (1993); DeWaal (1978); Dieter (1997); Duinen (1983); Durham (199_); Gunther (1861); Haagner (1989, 1994); Haninger-Berlin (1993); Hartmann (1962); Jackintell (1996); Kratzer (1973); Kucher (1995); Meier (1995); Phillips (1990, 1991, 1995, 1998, 1994); Shaw (1963); Staedelli (1962); Summerville (1989); Rese (1983); Visser (1981, 1992); Wesiak (1998), Falk (1921)Kaufman (1994); Boylan (1995) to mention a few. No Dragoon says this stuff is outdated....is this because it requires reading? Well, Visser (1981, 1992) has bred F2 generation over the time span of 23 years, and his overwhelming generosity he gave me all his records, photographs of adults, offspring of these animals to share with others, and in time, if time permits, I will do this in a few papers I am working on, one of them on African varanid reproduction behaviors. You do not get information like this generous man shares with me everyday.......if ever! Other people I know of, a generous man in Florida has bred albigularis 7 consecutive generations, with only 7 babies living from over 150 eggs, most of them dying full term in egg - which is a mystery to me??

As for technical papers, I do have available to distribution of african varanids reprints. If interested, email me for further information. As African varanids have been my main interest for 23 years now, and I have collected a tremendous material on them it is amazing what is out there - hidden like pieces of ate, trickets of treasure, a sentence there, paragraph here, and when you put it all together, it can astound you what can be found! There is 1 island off Natal, RSA where the Gaboon vipers and V.albigularis do not prey on one another, where-as elsewhere, the animals would be attacking one another - why? Nobody knows, but it is also the site of great bird nesting grounds....perhaps having so much food available to them, they do feel compelled to kill one another?

As for the war with my illness, I may win a few battles here and there, like Napoleon did, but I have lost my war,and it will win, later than sooner I hope, but I have already been told I would be dead several times already....Im still here, but time is not on my side and neither is my energy....it is very tiring fighting a battle 16 times a minute, 24/7, 365/yr, over 4 decades now, one becomes very tired, and when you're in moderate pain, that time seems much longer....but I am still here, writing....and babysitting...and watching this world go quite MADD!

cheers,
markb

[Colonel SB]

Thank you mark for shareing all you info :) I really apprecate it.

[Tim and Julie B]

Great info Mark! I agree that the literary world is in a tail spin. No one seems to read anymore.
Sprackland and others wrote a book that was published in 94 by TFH. Called Giant Lizards. I have yet to locate a copy though. So all the info mentioned above is periodicals? Not published books right. How is the best way to get a hold of these? I would love to read them. Not that it is my most passionate interest in the herp world. But that I would love to learn more about this subject. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with the next generation. Since some of us are willing to learn and READ! :D (Maybe it is because my mom is an English Lit. major....might have something to do with it! :D) Although it didn't help my spelling....haha!

Thanks for the great info and I wish you the best,
Tim Banighen.

[Colonel SB]

I love to read I buy every new herp book that comes out even if I don't have the animal.

[Dragoon]

Mark,
I'm so sorry. I didn't say what I meant. I do not want to offend or argue with you in the slightest.

What I meant to get across was, I believe there is some harmful husbandry advice given in some of the commonly available varanid books I have read. Harmful as in, it could kill your monitor. Newbies are better off NOT reading it, as it requires picking what's useful from what's not. And HOW is someone new, able to pick out what is useful, useless, harmfull?? Reading may abet the more experienced keeper, who already has some level of understanding of his charges. It is the newbies that need to be careful of what to read.
This, my friend, is what I myself *think* the slogan "The more you read, the less you breed" means. (I could be wrong, and will be soundly thumped for my impudence if I am. )

For the record, I am a reader, and will always be pro-reading. I would never wear that slogan, as it can be taken the wrong way, just as all printed words can.
(I think I understand how hurtfull it must be for you to read it.)

I'd like to think that phrase was coined with good intentions- of getting a message out to the newbies. Or rather, for the benefit of helpless lizards locked up in inadequate caging, heat and food. They are what all the discussions should be about.

That's neat how you like to piece together stories of wild varanids. Those accounts may soon be all that's left of what wild varanids are like, and yes, they should be saved and savoured.
Just my humble newbie opinions.
D.

[markb]

Hi D.,

I see things very black and white, matter of factly - the moto on the other forum to implies overfeeding them, and not reading, both not very smart intentions, and if you ask me, stupid. Have you ever seen a varanid die of over-eating? Look at Steve B.'s post of his V. doreanus that ate itself to death, or the movie "Seven" first murder scene = disgusting!

I understand your motives re: books now - now you explained yourself, and it makes perfect sense. Alot of what is published in any book is already outdated the minute its published - but thats why journal articles are out there = the new junk. All universities have journal, most big universities have herpetology journals too, and most you can get a free reference card, and enter any university library with this card, xerodx the articles you need and go home; here in Berkeley, the university has 7 million+ books here alone, with 3 million more in storage, and when it comes to varanids, I leave no book unturned, especially african-topic related books. Right now, Im going through Africa stacks, at "Uganda" for the second time, and each time, I find something I missed before....a new piece of info like last week, V. niloticus is called "Warana" in Uganda in 1924. A nice feminine name too.

You would be surprised what can be found about varanid - for S.E. Asia it is much more difficult as they despise them, and for V. rudicollis, 1 1579 missionary account describes them as black dragons hanging from trees ready to pounce on wary chinamen traders...written on isles and n. shore of malacca straits, Malaysia.
I don't think they were referring to V. salvator. I had a 5' female V. rudicollis that dropped down on me from a tree in my garden, surprised the Sh$t out of her, bit me on my back, and ran off...at a liesurely gait....had her for nearly 8 years, and she hated my guts from day #1. She was given to me as a DOA import, skin and bones 4.5 footer, fed her on cockroaches and pinkies for those years....and let her sun herself in pear tree in my garden.... she would sit there try to get birds that pirched nearby, as they had no idea what she was, they had no fear of her until she gaped at them....never got one but it gave her something to do.
Thanks for clarifying...we're not arguing, just fine-tuning our talk.
Enjoy your trip in Toronto w/NYC boys....and show.
cheers D.,
markb