View Full Version : I came upon this Letter to the Editor in the Province Paper
TPiorun
06-25-03, 04:12 PM
http://www.canada.com/vancouver/theprovince/story.asp?id=CE34042E-6B33-4131-9322-05E8012CC3E3&rnd=464
http://www.canada.com/vancouver/theprovince/letters/story.asp?id=C0D12237-B016-40EE-84AF-904DD73EF2F5
I have forwarded my own response to the editor.. and I think you should too..
Letters to the editor
provletters@png.canwest.com
to the article writer
kspencer@png.canwest.com
Please notice that no rebuttle to the original newsletter is being printed. Just the pro side.. what is up with that...?
drewlowe
06-25-03, 04:19 PM
that second letter is such crap. most of my reptile's have formed a bond with me. thats all i can write for now. cause it's time to leave work.
gonesnakee
06-25-03, 04:34 PM
I can tell you one thing for sure is that if I ever stop in Surrey again it will be at the "Rainforest Reptile Refuge" (1395, 176 st) & it will to be to talk to Christine Schramm. The conversation won't be a pleasant one as I will proceed to "tear her a new one" based on all the B.S. she has stirred up with her unfair biased opinion. People like her do nothing but create negative press for people like "us". I would urge everyone who has yet to contact the city of Surrey to complain/vent to do so now. If you choose to do nothing about it, then I expect to hear no complaints from you in the future when you too may be exposed to such nonsense in your area. Its crazy on how a few extreme radicals such as Christine S. can sway the uninformed's opinions & cause such Bylaws to even be considered. Like I said no reason to sit back & let this B.S. take place do whatever you can to help out these Surrey folk & their backwards, closeminded fools, opps I mean councilmen, make the proper choices. Mark IsBell - GONE SNAKEE!
Damien Aube
06-25-03, 05:03 PM
Some times things just can't make sence. In Edmonton, the city put in dog restrictive bylaws last year. They just had a reviewal of the laws yesterday. Even though the "pitt bull" breeds didn't make the top 20 biting dogs in the country, they are the only ones still restricted. Whats a person to do??? We'll fight these laws again and ask more Q's to the powers that be.
As for the proposed bylaws for reptiles in BC. It seems that you are facing some inevidable facts.
If the powers that be want it, they usually get it, so be prepared for the laws to be passed and soon.
I was talking to a friend in Victoria recently, who works for bylaws.
He said there was a descussion of reptiles and the laws which govern them.
This is FACT not fiction.
There are no laws to regulate the ownership of these animals.
Here in Edmonton, you may only have 3 dogs per house hold, but NO restrictions on the # of reptiles you may own. This is the norm throughout Canada.
This was the biggest concern for the SPCA and bylaw officers.
Just wondering if you out there would agree to regestering your herps and being limited to the # per household, and paying a fee to ownthem as dog and cat owners do.
This could allow for people to keep what they want and the "powers" to help maintain the populations and care for the animals. You would also know some or all of the animals medical history if they had been registered, like a dog.
Just my opinion
Damien
reptile gallery
06-25-03, 05:26 PM
Just replied with a letter to the editor, and I strongly second the above posts. It is up to each and every one of us to express our opinions related to this issue, and to be sure our arguements are based on facts, vs. their arguements based on fears and misinformation.
As for restricting the number of reptiles in private collections..give me a break. By nature, reptiles and the care of them can not be compared to cats and dogs. Period. 10 dogs in your house and 10 snakes in your house are two very different issues. Whats next...no more than two goldfish , and by the way, they must have a tag???????
snakemann87
06-25-03, 05:37 PM
Eeeeeeeeeeeer that second post by the lady made me mad!!! I mean....how does she know for a FACT that they do not enjoy being in captivity??? Is she a bull crap animal psychic that can read their minds???
Colonel SB
06-25-03, 05:40 PM
Its the same ol' Bull Sh*t story if it's not cute and cuddle it's not for people.
Bryce Masuk
06-25-03, 05:41 PM
Alright I have Had it we have been fighting this crap And I havnt been helping Whats the course of action? What are we going to do? This strikes close to home and it really pisses me off anyone thats organizing soem thing for us to fight back let me know PM me and ? I will do what I can
Bryce
gonesnakee
06-25-03, 05:45 PM
Hi Damien long time no see/hear. In reguards to registration & limited #'s of animals it is a good idea for petowners & from others point of view. In reguards to breeders though, serious conflict. If they consider as you suggested they must also be willing to work with people who are currently involved in breeding etc. A special permit or license would be required for them or they will all be out of business or in violation of "new laws". It would not be nessicarily a bad thing for some breeders to be required to do so as it would hopefully eliminate "puppy mill" conditions in certain "breeders" cases as maybe such permits etc. would actually involve an inspection of the premises to make sure everything was up to par & put these "puppy mill types" out of business. I don't really know what to suggest but I don't think registering every snake I ever own would "thrill" me or anyone else for that matter. These people making the laws seem to have very little sense when it comes to them & are strongly biased in doing so. If they actually researched & based bylaws etc. on facts & statistics instead of "old wives tales" & closeminded backwards attitudes maybe people would be more willing to work with them in getting a "proper system" in place. As of right now I'm as Anti-establishment as ever based on the approach of most "councils" in reguards to any laws in reguards to animals or otherwise. I am willing to work with "them" just because I will have no other choice but to do so. Sad but true. Mark
Tim and Julie B
06-25-03, 05:47 PM
Not ot mention that she does not provide the proper care for the animals she "rescues". It's appauling that she can even be condsidered a refuge! I wrote a letter to Kurt Spencer, the reporter of the original column, and I just sent one to the editor. I swear if they don't print it, I will keep on writing until they do. Why in this day and age is it okay for a newspaper to be biased? Give me a break. I cannot even count om my fingers AND toes how many people I know that have been seriously hurt by a dog, but reptiles? NEVER!!!!! Arghhh. I want to scream. I could never imagine how bad I would feel if someone took away any of my reptiles. The worst part is that no one seems to understand what exotics means- good-bye birdies, hamsters and blah, blah, blah too! Could you imagine the fuss if people had their birds taken away? I'm too mad to say anymore!
Julie Banighen!!! Politicians suck a**.
TPiorun
06-25-03, 06:01 PM
Wow what a sensationalistic headline.
"Exotic animals 'live and die in basements"
I think the community would be better served with a headline that accurately reads:
"Exotic animals 'live and die in the Rainforest Reptile Refuge"
I would like to see where the exotics are, that are dying in such just great multitudes?
I think it might serve you well to see what animals, and how many, are being given to the Reptile Refuse in the last couple of years? I would wager to guess NOT many. I have heard tell they have to buy animals to fill their refuge and I am not talking about iguanas and turtles I am talking about snakes. You see its a business for them and you must understand that its in Ms Schrams best interest to say she has lots of animals that come in. Remember there are no animals going out. Imagine the SPCA being run on that principal? All the Cats and Dogs going in but none being adopted out? No euthanasia - You would have about 5,000 per kennel. You could then run around and print "Dogs and Cats "live and die in basements" - That's pretty insane.
Tell me how you can run a reptile rescue without an adoption program? How can you say you care about these animals when you would rather keep them in over crowded, unsanitary conditions? than adopt them out to caring capable individuals? Its ridiculous and insane. The only place these reptiles are dying are in her refuge. Lets dig up their backyard and she just how many animals have needlessly died for her beliefs.
I am wondering if you talked to the Herp clubs in the community? I am sure they can show you how well these exotics are looked after. I think the readership would be better served taking up the cause of abused children in the community, instead of this nonsense of abused reptiles. She should look into licensing parents to keep children, and see where that goes.
Sincerely
T. Piorun
PS: the $3,000 designer snake you are talking about is an albino Burmese python. Price? about $225. Believe me anyone that pays that much for an animal cares about it and if it gets to be too much they find it a good home. Just like any caring person would.
reptile gallery
06-25-03, 06:04 PM
Mark...I understand your points related to registration, and you raise a good arguement...but 'registration' is something for us to do as an industry/hobby within reptile organizations(provincial/national,etc) so that good can come from it. The cities and municipalities do not and should not manage reptile registrations of any kind, for this would lead to pointless fees and controls. Restricting the number of animals is not appropriate for reptiles regardless of whether you consider yourself a 'hobbiest' or 'breeder', simply because it is not practical to impose restrictions on all parties, regardless of species kept. This 'blanket' approach would damage our ability to keep these wonderful animals. No doubt about it.
It just goes to show the lack of education ...... If more people did thier homework we would have way less of a problem:mad:
And as for the whole" if u have to keep it in a cage it it isnt a pet "......OMG come on......If my dogs didnt have fenced back yard they would be all over the town.....Shows just how lil education the idiots making the statements have:(
Really sad ........hopefully we can all help and make these people see that reptiles and thier keepers are not bad just misunderstood.....;)
You know what really got to me? The comment that 'any animal kept in a cage to prevent it from running away is not a pet' or something to effect.
Many bird owners would not agree, and what about the owners of hamsters, rabbits, mice, gerbils and rats? Most of these creatures are considered pets, and many of us started off with something of that nature. (I understand for just as many of us, these creatures are a source of sustinance for our reptiles).
What about fish? Fish are pets, and they aren't kept in aquariums because they'll run away, they need an enclosed space, wether in captivity or in nature. That was absolutely the most preposterous, ignorant and insensitive comment I have EVER read.
Now that I've ranted a little about that, I should throw in the fact, that my iguana and python do not have enclosures. They have rooms. Does that make them non-exotic? NO. I think the authors only want us to have puppies and kitties, (regulating those too, of course). No one will ever eradicate reptiles altogether as pets. Owners would just go underground, (I know I would). Many of us care for these creatures just as much as our mammalian pets; this is something that needs recognition from non-reptilian owners.
I agree that education is the single most important factor in this entire debate. Wether you own reptiles or oppose them, it's important for you to empathize with persons who keep them as companion animals.
They wouldn't want reptile owners banning cats or dogs, would they?
Damien Aube
06-25-03, 06:10 PM
Your attitude is one of the reasons that people push these kinds of laws on herpers.
I never said that dogs and cats care was = to snakes.
But lets face it...3 dogs or 20 snakes. If your properly taking care of your animals, owning this many snakes would take up a vast amount of time, more than the average person would have to spend!
Mark has hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerened.
Breeders should have to be regestered to keep control of populations and conditions. This would also make them accountable to be "legimate"businesses. Taxes and such, but thats another topic all together. It would hopefully eliminate the importing of sickly animals and substandard conditions of snakey-mills. If people are so worried out the "health and safety" of the reptiles of the world, this would be a giant leap for their safety.
hopefully showing others the genuine concerns for safety.
OH yeah....just to finishup with Reptile Gallery.
You can have herps micro-chipped...in case you didn't know.
Damien
ciliatus902
06-25-03, 06:11 PM
In response to Mark's first post; I have been to the Rainforest Reptile Refuge, and although the animals seemed to be fairly well cared for (I know how hard it would be to run a refuge), but she seemed to be in the wrong place. She was talking about how vicious iguanas are (and I know they can be; but this kind of seems to be the wrong place to be spouting your mouth), and had articles about reptile attacks. I know these can be useful to warn people from spur-of-the-moment, it-would-be-cool-to-own-a-6-foot-lizard type thing, and it is good that she is trying to inform potential herp owners. Another thing that took place while I was there, (and this is before I had gotten my first snake, and I was considering getting a ball python) my mom asked her whether or not it would be a good choice. The refuge owner started going on about how nippy they are, how they carry diseases and have eating problems (I know, wild-caught problems), and that instead of reaching 3-5 feet, like I had researched, they got 6+ feet (and of course my mom wanted to have a fairly small snake). So in conclusion, my hopes of getting that ball python were destroyed, my mom got a bit more freaked out from snakes, and although I love going to see the animals, I wish they had someone better suited to meet the public there.
Mike
PS- This was around 2000, and I eventually did get a snake. At the 2001 Spring TARAS show, Henry P had a little honduran milksnake for $50, and he turned out to be the perfect starter snake. Hahaa, my poor mom; I walked into the show with the intention of looking around and maaaaaaaaybe getting something (even though she hadn't 100% approved of it yet), and walked out with this snakes. It didn't take her long to fall under the charm of Zip, my male hoduran milksnake, and now she tells everyone he's "cute". hahahahahah
reptile gallery
06-25-03, 06:19 PM
So much anger!?!
"Attitudes like mine?" You mean the attitude that it is not for the city or municipality to dictate my collection size or ability to care for it?
You mean the attitude that cat and dog care is not related to reptile care?
You mean the attitude that there is a very real danger in giving bylaw the ability to decide who is a breeder and who is a keeper or collector?
You are confused today Damien. Have a rest. And spare me your 'reptile advice'
Mark...I understand your points related to registration, and you raise a good arguement...but 'registration' is something for us to do as an industry/hobby within reptile organizations(provincial/national,etc) so that good can come from it. The cities and municipalities do not and should not manage reptile registrations of any kind, for this would lead to pointless fees and controls. Restricting the number of animals is not appropriate for reptiles regardless of whether you consider yourself a 'hobbiest' or 'breeder', simply because it is not practical to impose restrictions on all parties, regardless of species kept. This 'blanket' approach would damage our ability to keep these wonderful animals. No doubt about it.
I have to totally agree with this...... Any registration for breeders or keepers would only give the powers that be more ruleing then they already have......Plus how on earth are we going to keep the CBB market alive if we are probed and watched all the time....I think we are able to keep an eye out on ourselves and most of us have the ability to know when our animals are in poor condition or what is illegal to keep.We dont need anyone who doesnt know a thing about herps to tell us that...........
Breeders should have to be regestered to keep control of populations and conditions. This would also make them accountable to be "legimate"businesses. Taxes and such, but thats another topic all together. It would hopefully eliminate the importing of sickly animals and substandard conditions of snakey-mills. If people are so worried out the "health and safety" of the reptiles of the world, this would be a giant leap for their safety
OMG......Please give me a break....... MOST of us have put blood,sweat and tears not to mention thousands of dollars into our collections.......MOST of us have the best conditions for our animals and MOST of us do watch for over flooding of the markets and take steps not to let this happen.......We dont need the likes of "the powers that be" or urself telling us how many herps we can keep. As for the Legit business ,paying taxes and such.....I for one do and have all along.....seems to me that ur still upset about some other personal/business issues :eek: As for ur sickly animals and substandard snakey mills comment ......All I can say is that if u put a watchful eye on us breeders all ull have is ur sickly herps out there.......And I am sure u know all about that .
Damien Aube
06-25-03, 06:31 PM
Anger....have a rest???
Ok sorry that your opinions are Godlike and no one else knows more. You are correct, you should have the rights to own as many as you want and care for them as you see fit. No one should be able to tell you what to do, this should also apply to the novice who buys as many animals as he sees fit, housing them in any manner they choose. No one should be able to tell them anything. No regulations or restrictions.
Damien
fanmaninacan
06-25-03, 06:32 PM
the last 3 pragraphs in the second letter is full of shi*
T.P
ciliatus902
06-25-03, 06:35 PM
uhhh... guys??? You're kind of missing the point. It won't matter who sounds godlike or whatever regulations there are or whatever if exotic pets are banned altogether. Just trying to nudge you back to the point...
Mike
Damien Aube
06-25-03, 06:41 PM
My point WAS that. Without restrictions and laws to regulate these animals. Big brothers answer will be a complete ban!
People who can't understand this are in fact dooming their hobby.
If Mark!!!! who is capt. anti-establishment (LOL) gets this and is willing to comply to a degree, it should send a message.
There are laws to protect and regulate everything in life!!!!
Damien
uhhh... guys??? You're kind of missing the point. It won't matter who sounds godlike or whatever regulations there are or whatever if exotic pets are banned altogether. Just trying to nudge you back to the point...
True......but I wonder if they actually realize that there are more to exotics then herps........Have the talked to the bird people,cavie people or rabbit people.......Dout it:confused: What I dont understand is why every topic on this exotic banning is always directed to herps......It must be the danger aspect:confused: I would rather get bitten by a boa than a parrot any day ...... Plus how many dogs and cats have bitten people compaired to herps....... Way more thats for sure.......And what is the most likely animal to kill a person..........Well it isnt a lizard or a snake .......In North America its a DEER.......;)[
People who can't understand this are in fact dooming their hobby
Pretty bold statement coming from someone who use to bring in WC/Farmed animals for his store and to take to shows.......:confused:
And we do have regualtions.....CITES is one of them......Alberta Wild Life has sheets of them.......But the only thing bans and regulations of how many we can keep are going to do is make the market go underground even more than it already is......Which means the people who need the education wont be able to get it.......and the price of our beloved herps will shy rocket.......I for one vote on EDUCATION not regualtion:D
LISA127
06-25-03, 06:56 PM
Although I am a big dog lover, my opinion is that you are in much more danger when meeting a strange dog than when coming into contact w/most any reptile.
Bryce Masuk
06-25-03, 07:03 PM
I am with damien but on a different line I think that any snake That is "hot" or over 10 feet should be licenced nd pet stores cant sell either of them or camiens because they become throw aways pets usually
The reptile refuge Is right near my house I have never been there But I plan on going down there to calmly discuss this issue with christine scramm My friend said they they wont let ANY one Adopt ANYthing AT ALL te camiens are PACKED into one tank with NO breathing room
Tim and Julie B
06-25-03, 07:31 PM
Well I guess this answers the question of do we live in a free society, apparently some politicians what to control how we spend our time and what types of animals we can keep. last time I heard the ferret rescue had over 300 ferrets from the Vancouver area. Why has no one mentioned this? Simply they can pass as cute and cuddly. Basically they have fur. I was just called by our local SPCA because someone brought a snake in. They would even let it in the building because they don't like them it was in a hamster cage underneath of a tree in the f**cking parking lot. Apparently "humane" only applies to animals they personally like. So much for a huge problem. since I agreed to take reptiles in that were dropped of at the SPCA three months ago, I have only received two reptiles. Wow I had no idea it was such a huge problem. I personally will not be donating any money to the SPCA from now on. I respect what they do with the animals they choose to help, but how can I possibly support them when they are so biased that they leave a poor snake in the parking lot. They fear what they don't know or understand and I didn't see any indication that they wanted to learn.
As far as someone wanting to tell me how many snakes I can own, THAT IS UTTERLY RIDICULOUS! How on earth can that be a good solution? So now no one can be a large breeder? God forbid you should want to keep something you love and now wait you now have to many choose which you want to keep and now you can't get anymore. How is that going to help there be less abandoned reptiles. How does that equal responsible ownership?
Oh and form now on I am calling it"The Rainforest Reptile Refuse."
That's my rant! Tim B.
Scales Zoo
06-25-03, 07:35 PM
A letter I am thinking of sending.............
Hello.
My name is Ryan Wunsch. My wife Sheila and myself are curators of Scales Zoo in Leader Saskatchewan. It is exclusively a reptile zoo, and our primary goals are to educate people (children and adults) and promote conservation of the world’s animals and their habitat.
Reptiles are very misunderstood creatures. Many people are afraid of reptiles because of their lack of knowledge. Unfortunately, reptiles all to often get a “bad rap”. I can also see how this “bad rap” can fuel proposed bylaws.
This is very unfortunate.
I started by keeping reptiles at home. If I were not allowed to do this, because of a bylaw, I would have most likely not continued my interest and learning about wildlife and then environment.
I know many biologists, zoologists, herpetologists and environmentalists who I am sure would not have pursued one of these very honourable careers, if they had not been given the chance to keep reptiles.
The term “exotic animal”, due to various past incidents (some not so past) is being used recklessly in shock-media campaigns against many causes.
Reptiles have been kept and captively bred as a hobby (herpeticulture), for more than 50 years.
What makes them more exotic than a hamster from Siberia, a gerbil from Africa, or a fish (many fish are ruthlessly caught from the wild, to die in petstores and fish tanks)? For some reason these other animals are perfectly acceptable pets.
In the last 20, and more so in the last 5 – this hobby has seen many great advances. Many species of snakes are more than 10 generations captive bred.
Furthermore, there are 2700 species of snakes on the planet. There are not enough zoos in the world to captively propagate this number of snake species. If not for herpetoculture, there will some day be much less than 2700 species.
Reptiles are becoming endangered and extinct faster than many types of animals primarily due to habitat loss and lack of protection. Every one wants to save the cute panda bear, but when it comes to reptiles (especially snakes, due to their perceived lack of cuteness by the general public), there are too few people who fight for the cause.
The best keepers of reptiles are those people who truly love them. I would much rather see these animals be kept by people who are caring for them properly, than to see the animals go to overcrowded shelters.
Have a good day
Ryan Wunsch
gonesnakee
06-25-03, 07:44 PM
Well people we got us a thread. First off Damien is right as far as me being Mr. Anti-establishment & Anarchy Now would suit me fine if I thought it would work. We must have some things regulated as Bryce has stated such as hots & large Boids. Face it some people are idiots & are ruining it for those of us who are not. I do not agree with any licensing of reptiles other than the hots & the 10 ft + Boids etc. It would be a good way to weed out some of the "unworthies" & maybe save someones life. Any other registraton (other than by "us" on our own behalf) would simply be a tool to be possibly used againest us & also just another source of revenue for govt. agencies (maybe they just want their cut). If I am forced to comply to some sort of registration/inspection or whatever as a breeder I will do what is required by law to continue what I do. This does not mean I will support it or like it, but if its comply or lose my animals, comply I will. The whole approach that has been taken recently by the B.C. cities etc. is a very scary wake up call for us all & just goes to show how naive the powers that be really are & how easy it is for them to start bending us over. Mark
P.S. Now for my politically incorrect stance on the subject. "THEY HAD BETTER HOPE THAT THEY HAVE TAKEN MY GUNS BEFORE THEY COME FOR MY SNAKES!" LOL M.I.>(
Scales Zoo
06-25-03, 07:44 PM
Now, as far as other opinions I am willing to share with the snake community.
I think there should be regulations that keep idiots from owning some reptiles. This is hard to do - but in a perfect world, you could get licensed to show compentancy to keep giant pythons, big monitors, crocodillians and venomous snakes.
Unfortunately, this licensing system will never happen.
Having said that, Sarge, our dog, is potentially more dangerous than most of our reptiles. But, again, in a perfect world idiots would not be able to keep big dogs, pit bulls etc.
The time is now, to band together and fight these laws. Educate the public.
I'd love to see wild aninmals in the wild, but for many animals, there is no more wild places to live. (hey, I could include that in my letter - it sounds good - a good example would be the Dumerils boa, or Indigo snakes)
I wish the activists would put more energy into stopping rattlesnake roundups, rain forest destruction etc - and less energy into more trivial things like keeping cornsnakes.
There is a devil woman in B.C. - I think she should be exposed for what she really is, she has done a lot of damage to us, the enemy.
I have tried really hard to see these bylaws from the point of view of their makers and supporters, but I am having a tough time getting my head that far up my butt.
Ryan
Scales Zoo
06-25-03, 07:47 PM
Mark, you and I are hippies that were born too late.
And we have guns!
"The man" has taken, it is time "the man" give a little.
Ryan
drewlowe
06-25-03, 07:52 PM
ryan, your letter was very well spoken and you should send it to them.
Very good letter Ryan :D Can I sign my name to it as well..hehehehe;)
Yea Ryan! Please do send that letter in and help us BC folk out! Thanks a bunch guys for all your support!!
Scales Zoo
06-25-03, 09:36 PM
O.K, I polished the letter (not really for content, but for grammer) and sent it to the paper and the orginal sender.
Anyone know the Mayor and council's email address? I'd like to send them the letter as well.
gonesnakee
06-25-03, 09:52 PM
The city of Surrey has a website, but I don't have the address anymore. From the website you can email them. I think I got it from a post Walter had on the TARAS site. Mark
TPiorun
06-25-03, 10:07 PM
I think this is the address. EXCELLENT letter Ryan!
http://www.city.surrey.bc.ca/_Utility/contact.asp
We have 20 snakes. maintaining them doesn't take that long compared with 5 snakes. takes me about 1 hour to feed them (including thawing of the rodent) cleaning takes 2 - 15 minutes a day depending on what needs to be done. sociallizing them on the other hand takes longer, though often we will just hang a snake over our shoulder or around a wrist and go about doing other things.
As for registering your herps, I only would take this as an option to out right bans. I don't want to voluntarily bring in laws that bring me 1 step closer to bans or more restrictions on what we can and cant keep. proposing to register and restrict herps when there is currently no legislation on the table about them at all is bad, as some places may decide they don't want to deal with the registration and just go for an all out ban.
Putting legislation on the table is like saying that we have a problem with too many herps, which is not the idea we want to convey.
Lets keep herping free with out shooting ourselves in the foot, we have enough problems with other groups making us dance.
Tim and Julie B
06-25-03, 10:55 PM
Excellent letter Ryan! I am glad you sent it. You made some very good points. Lisa you made some excellent points as well! Good to see so many people getting invovled. Thank you.
Bryce Masuk
06-26-03, 01:58 AM
Lisa I would like to see those laws put in place not only if they want it as a compromise but for the general good when people start dieing and reptiles are to blame the govenment is put under presure from the public and media to fix the problem. There idea of fixing it is banning everything right away. I would also like to see people that buy reptiles from pet stores not get there hands on reptiles that become throw away pets because they grow 20 times the size of what they were. I would gladly give up my right to freely own hots and large boids without registration because its worth it in many ways it saves people and it saves reptiles.
TPiorun
06-26-03, 07:06 AM
I am curious to see the data on people dying from reptiles? What facts are you using for your point of view? Can you please tell me in the province of British Columbia how many people have died from reptiles? Not one. Wow I am shaking my head at such a narrow point of view. I am wondering why you want big brother into your business at every turn? I dont think that bans and laws will change how people act.
TPiorun
06-26-03, 07:13 AM
Julie,
You have been published! The headline reads:
Snakes less likely to attack than dogs
http://www.canada.com/vancouver/theprovince/letters/story.asp?id=CD658580-A94A-495D-9BD3-B3A1FAA1C7F2
Excellent!
Lets keep those letters coming
I dont feel that large boids are a huge risk. They may be more likely to show up for rescue then a corn snake but todate i've only been contacted about taking 2 snakes that people didn't want. a corn and a king. as for venomous, they are a little more difficult to get, most people tend to think that venomous are illegal all over canada (they're not, just in many places in canada) so they don't get sold as much.
Scales Zoo
06-26-03, 07:31 AM
Just some interesting information on exotics, and not so exotics.
Donkeys kill more people per year than plane crashes. Who would have thought the cute little docile donkey could have a temper, and deadly accurate kick. A MULE can AIM a kick for best results, I can attest to this, I have been on the receiving end of a couple of these.
Horses kill more people per year than all other exotics combined, including dogs and cats. Funny that there is no law against going to the auction on Saturday to buy the kids a pony, just to have them crater their head into a fence post on Sunday. (This actually happened) I have 3 ounces of titanium in my spine thanks to a horse, they are right above chickens on the animal intelligence scale. Dont get me wrong, I loved horses and grew up in a horse family, they are trainable, but not that smart.
If you do not keep snakes (or reptiles) you are more likely to be bitten by another person than you are to be bitten by a snake.
There are 2 types of people who keep snakes - those who have been bitten, and those that are going to be. Most of us who choose to keep them are aware of this fact.
Working with Great dane rescue for 9 years, I would rather be bitten by a retic than a Dane. I have had my palm bitten clean through by a Dane that was just scared and abused, and it was not his fault.
I did abandon my veterinary career due to the fact that I had completely underestimated human stupidity. My internship left me so disgruntled with people, I wished we were able to neuter them before they had a chance to breed.
When people get all upset over the choices of pets we keep, I wonder how closely they really look at the world around them. Everywhere there is child poverty, sexual abuse and neglect. It does not matter if we are rich or poor, smart or stupid, this is serious stuff happening in our own back yards.
Lets worry about our children and fellow man first, and when we have solved the major issues surrounding humanity, and we are not exhausted with the effort, lets throw ourselves headlong into the petty crap! When we are as concerned for the homeless man dying in the street, as we are for the (reptile) dying in the petstore, I might understand the mentality (or lack thereof) behind this type of crusade.
Just my 2 cents
Sheila
tHeGiNo
06-26-03, 08:26 AM
Send that letter in! That was amazing Sheila!
Darlene
06-26-03, 10:52 AM
My thoughts exactly Gino ! Sheila send that in. I voted for you all out there in B.C. I may have some helpful info coming in as I know there is a city here in Nova Scotia that used to have a snake ban. Yes I said USED TO. It has been removed. As I wasn't very old when this happened I have made some tele calls, sent some letters & e-mail to get the info & specifics. Let's all cross our fingers that I get some news on what happened to change the ban that it can still be used today to help prevent one.
Good luck & hope I can help,Dar.
TPiorun
06-26-03, 10:55 AM
Sheila,
You must send that in! Its awesome!
Terri
PS.. i have your site up and running
www.scaleszoo.com
its a work in progress so bear with me.. :-)
Tim and Julie B
06-26-03, 12:10 PM
Here's one for our side written by my other half! Way to go Julie.
http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=140952#post140952
Oh you already posted it ! :D Thanks Terri!
Great letters!
Excellent point Sheila. I work on a farm and I know how much damage "a nice little riding pony" can cause.
And I don't remember the last time I saw a headline in the local paper about a pet snake attack.
Yesterdays paper however had a 5 yr old girl attacked by a dog and needs lots of stitches. You see articles like that all the time. That was the front page. The classifieds had numerous ads for "rottweilers, pit bulls....." 300$ and up. Not to mention all the "free puppy" ads from the idiots that don't bother to fix their animals. You don't need any legislation to get them or breed them or even train them mean and let them run free.
Some people just need to have some idiot cause to fight for. It seems like most of them don't care what the cause is or don't bother to get informed first.
What wasted energy. My Grandmother always said "Don't fix what ain't broken". Amen
I think I'll submit some legislation. We need to ban Ice cream trucks! How many children are hit by them each year?
Or lets make it so all hot dogs are square shaped! They are just to easy to choke on round like that. I wonder how many people would sign that if I stood outside a grocery store and peddled it.......
:rolleyes:
tHeGiNo
06-26-03, 07:55 PM
Hey, well I am far away but hell I figure I will try my best to help. I just wrote up this letter and before I send it I would like you all to read it and offer some suggestions, opinions and possible changes. I borrowed a few quotes from things others on this thread have said. If you would like me to take this off please let me know. Well here it is:
The fact that I must resort to writing this letter is utterly ridiculous in itself. I came across the article “Exotic animals 'live and die in basements'” and I am disgusted. It is absolutely iniquitous that these biased, ignorant opinions be thrown out publicly to the uneducated. Statements such as: "Any animal you put in a cage to keep from running away is not a pet," is a prime example of falsifying reality, a clear biased opinion. I am positive that if this statement was reversed towards rodents, cats, dogs or birds, it would instantaneously be rejected. What I don’t understand is that the husbandry between exotics and these alternate PETS is parallel in that they are both in ‘cages’, and if given the opportunity would likely be inclined to run away. This applies to nearly every pet out there; dogs and cats are not an exception. Exotics owner feel for their snakes and lizards as a dog owner feels towards their dogs. Why then is it fair to strip us of our love and passion? They (exotics) are part of our lives and to wrongfully deprive us of this privilege is preposterous. I will NOT go as far as saying every exotic housed residentially is in a good position, but why let the irresponsibility of a select few others ruin it for the rest of us who dedicate ourselves to care for these magnificent creatures? It simply is not fair. Instead, why can’t we educate the public on the care and dedication involved in owning such animals to try and steer away those who are not capable. I may be backtracking here, but why is it always that the banning of ‘exotics’ is restricted solely to reptiles? What makes them more exotic than a hamster from Siberia, a gerbil from Africa, or a fish (many fish are ruthlessly caught from the wild, to die in pet stores and fish tanks)? For some reason these other animals are perfectly acceptable pets. This wouldn’t happen to be due to the perceived lack of ‘cuteness’ by the general public? I didn’t think so…
If you go up to my first sentence, I started by shaping this issue as ridiculous. Why? That’s simple: the public is so quick to jump on this without a stitch of evidence, or at least enough relevant enough to jump to such drastic measures. Where exactly do you see ‘exotic animals dying in basements? Even if you do take Schramms’ word for having 400+ abandoned animals, how does this compare to the thousands of abandoned and neglected cats and dogs sitting in shelters? Do not get me wrong, I am too a dog lover. My intent here is to show there is a threat in keeping any animal, and we must understand this before obtaining one. There will always be the irresponsible fool who buys on impulse, there is nothing we can do about this besides educate them. All in all, the idea of banning ‘exotics’ is unfairly generated through biased, falsified opinions thrown out to the uneducated public to create an uneducated opinion of reptiles.
Tim and Julie B
06-26-03, 08:14 PM
Good letter Gino! You should send a copy to the Surrey City council as well. All these letters to the paper are great but to make a difference we have to also send then to the idiots that are making this by law. Even if it is the same letter it makes the point that this proposed by law is attracting a lot of unwanted attension. :D Tim.
TPiorun
06-26-03, 08:57 PM
Excellent Gino you need to send it to the council like Tim says thats where to make your point. Thats where the effect is made. Thanks for sharing
Terri
:-)
tHeGiNo
06-27-03, 07:59 AM
Great I don't have a problem doing this. Do you have an e-mail that I can send it to?
tHeGiNo
06-27-03, 08:19 AM
Well to be safe, I sent it to the Mayor and to every one of his Counsillors. I can't explain how hard it was not to use profanities throughout my letter because this kind of bull really pisses me off. What angers me even more is the public is stupid enough to believe anything thrown at them.
tHeGiNo
06-27-03, 08:30 AM
AH I knew I forgot something. Damien, I too don't agree with you and I don't think anyone could have said it better then Lisa has:
As for registering your herps, I only would take this as an option to out right bans. I don't want to voluntarily bring in laws that bring me 1 step closer to bans or more restrictions on what we can and cant keep. proposing to register and restrict herps when there is currently no legislation on the table about them at all is bad, as some places may decide they don't want to deal with the registration and just go for an all out ban.
The highlight of this was when she said proposing this 'restriction' bs IS in fact saying what he are doing here is bad. As she said we ARE shooting ourselves in the foot by doing this.
tHeGiNo
06-27-03, 02:25 PM
I am impressed! I already got some replies from the folks in BC, the council that is:
From: Marie Parent
Dear David Walklate: Thank you for your e-mail. Please note that at the Regular Council meeting held Monday, June 16, 2003, Council decided to enact the Exotic Animal Bylaw No. 14823 dealing with the prohibition of the sale in the City of endangered, exotic, wild and dangerous animals and require staff to hold a public information meeting prior to the introduction of the By-law for final reading. As yet, the date for this public information meeting has not been set, but the public will be given notification about the meeting through advertisements in the local newspapers.
From: Christine Kiverago
Dear David Walklate:
It looks as though your message is incomplete. Would you like to finish it and resubmit? Yours truly, Christine Kiverago Legislative Services
I made a mistake while sending to her, a whole lot got cut off so I will be resending that now. I will update you with their responses.
Siretsap
06-27-03, 03:46 PM
Hey guys,
I e-mailed both the e-mails in the post and here is a copy of what I sent.
I wanted to let you know my point of view on these articles:
http://www.canada.com/vancouver/theprovince/story.asp?id=CE34042E-6B33-4131-9322-05E8012CC3E3&rnd=464
http://www.canada.com/vancouver/theprovince/letters/story.asp?id=C0D12237-B016-40EE-84AF-904DD73EF2F5
I do not agree on some of the information that was published in these articles.
Some reptiles will die because a few of us do not care properly for them. but I still think there are a large number of us that do care a lot for our reptiles and give them their proper needs. There is a greater number of dead cats and dogs each year than that of reptiles.
I always take my reptiles to a vet when they are sick. I would never let them die in my basement. That title is really not a good one, it gives the rest of the people an illusion that all reptile owners deprive their animals from a good life. I know for a fact that my reptiles are healthy and that I do everything to keep them in a surrounding accordingly to their origins.
And what Christine Schramm said about reptiles not suppose to be held in aquariums, vivariums or cages, I do not agree either on this point.
If it is not ok to keep an animal from running away, then why do we keep declawed cats from going outside? Why do we keep a dog in a house all day because we are at work and don't want to let him run free outside??? This is keeping it from running free in the wil so it should also be considered as non-ethical according to Mrs Christine Schramm. Many reptiles will not even do a lon distance of traveling in the wild. Many snakes will spend their whole lives in a space no bigger than most of our backyeards. I do not think a snake or a gecko will mind spending it's time in an appropriate size vivarium.
I do not look at my reptiles as morphs or "designer snakes". I love my reptiles and believe it or not, they do bond with you after a while.
Also, there is another passage in your article that troubled me a little:
<<...speckled caiman (alligators), who look cute at $150 and grow big enough to "rip your head off.">> Yes this can be true, but there is also the fact that each year, there are hundreds even thousands of dog attacks. I do not see a bigger danger in a caiman or a massive dog. Either one of them can deliver painfull and sometimes deadly bites.
Banning "exotic pet" is not a way to go. Exotic pets is not a specific word for animals. This includes birds, reptiles, cats, dogs, amphibians, tortoises, and more. Why ban animals because of our own fear of salmonella (when chicken have it) or because of our misunderstanding on them. A good way to prevent reptiles from dying because of our mistakes is to educate people on these terrific animals. The 1st step would be to have all employees in a petstore know about the animals they sell (that also includes cats and birds since many of them will not even know how to properly care for those also). Reptiles is something that is growing in popularity each year. Why ban then because of fears or misleading tales like this article you whrote about reptiles dying in basements???
This is my opinion, I know it may not count to your eyes, but my reptiles count for me and I will do anything to prevent them from harm's way and prevent bylaws, that are non-fonded, banning "Exotic pets".
Thanks
Michael
tHeGiNo
06-27-03, 04:13 PM
**ANOTHER UPDATE**
Well I just got a reply from another member of the council, Christine Kiverago:
Thank you for your email. Please note that at the Regular Council meeting held Monday, June 16, 2003, Council decided to enact the Exotic Animal By-law No. 14823 dealing with the prohibition of the sale in the City of endangered, exotic, wild and dangerous animals, and require staff to hold a public information meeting prior to the introduction of the By-law for final reading. As yet, the date for this public information meeting has not been set, but the public will be given notification about the meeting through advertisements in the local newspapers.
In the meantime, your message will be forwarded to the Mayor and Council, City Solicitor and Manager of By-law & Licensing for their information.
tHeGiNo
06-28-03, 01:06 AM
This is very very very interesting. I just got a response from the first male council member, and he said something which caught my eye:
David
For your edification, Surrey has not proposed a ban on reptiles in Surrey. We have proposed a ban on the sale of reptiles. I think that even you will agree that those who don't know how to care for these creatures should not have easy access to purchasing them at any and every pet store. Marvin Hunt Councillor.
Now this, I would absolutely agree upon. Not to mention it would bring breeders more customers rather then pet stores. The only problem I see occurring is 'pet stores' such as PCPC being shut down who actually know what they are talking about, and wont sell a burm to a 10 year old.
Jeff_Favelle
06-28-03, 01:35 PM
How the he!! does that help a breeder that LIVES in Surrey?
Not that anyone would WANT to live in Surrey but....that's another ball of wax.
dank7oo
06-28-03, 04:16 PM
the second letter is a bunch of bull :@
the breeder would have to do all transactions outside of surrey. real pain in the arse. but that's what i said when the law was posted :)
tHeGiNo
06-28-03, 07:55 PM
Maybe I misunderstood? I am thinking this means at pet stores only, due to his comment 'I am sure you can agree...' My apologies, it was a mistake lol.
Ok I just got a reply back from consoler Barb. I'm not sure where she is going with this one but the big 'B' stands out for me. I did make a little comment in my letter referring how reptiles can help with jobs and tourism (Reptile Zoo's and pet stores) using a quick little thing about Scales Zoo and how much people come to see their place in a small town, nothing compared to Surrey. Any way here is Barb's e-mail,
Maybe this will help to convince you that we should all have reptiles for
pets, and, of course, they are great for tourism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Barb
I don't know you figure it out.
Tim and Julie B
06-30-03, 03:40 AM
Huh?
Thats what I say, ????????. I did send a reply tellng her what Schramm claims to make in a year (125K) on tourism. I will post my reply from her when I get it. I also asked to be a little more clear in what she was trying to say.
Serpent-King
06-30-03, 09:08 AM
This just pisses me off. Yet another herp hatter trying to ruin it for all of us out of their own fear for them. They know next to nothing about then, all they know is they hate them. Then outy of fear or spite they bann then from us. They take away what we love because they are @$$holes. Good thing I'm in America or I'd probably end up going mad and shooting them. ARRRGGGG!!!
You wouldn't like me when I'm pissed off.
http://www.cidadaoq.hpg.ig.com.br/hulk.jpg
TPiorun
06-30-03, 10:36 AM
Hey Walter - you were published!
http://www.canada.com/vancouver/theprovince/letters/story.asp?id=753C3798-8494-4600-896A-EFE01C656E0C
Excellent letter.
TP
drewlowe
06-30-03, 10:43 AM
Congrats walter. Great letter.
DNA Reptiles
06-30-03, 10:52 AM
Hey Walter.....Great letter, says it like it is. You know what I am going to say next, Walter!! "When are you moving to BC?" Thanks.
Tim and Julie B
06-30-03, 11:34 AM
Good one Walter! Glad to know that they aren;t just going to let it all drop after a few days, like they usually do. I am happy that they are still printing the positive aspects of this mess. It's a real plus to have people from outside BC making the effort to help us out. It's very much appreciated. Thank-you!
Tim and Julie.
beth wallbank
06-30-03, 01:41 PM
Good job Walter. I think that if every herper floods the papers, radio, TV, and Surrey City council with letters and tie up their phone lines, this will either piss them off and notice a revolt in the making or realize that they are morons and haven't the slightest idea of what damage they are creating for themselves in Surrey for tourism.
moperri
06-30-03, 02:21 PM
Well nice letter Walt now I am all with DNA when are u moving to BC????//
Well it wasn't all of my letter just some parts. I have to say I was a little surprised that it made the paper and the phone call from some of the WSPCR members thanking me really made my day along with the e-mails.
As for moving to BC well you guys start building me a house and then it just might happen. LOL
DNA Reptiles
07-01-03, 09:12 AM
Hey Walter.....did you have anywhere in mind in "Beautiful BC" for a house.. haha. Happy Canada Day to you and Bonnie and the kids....Andrea and David
I got another reply from Surrey.
Walter
I'm not sure who is spreading this story, but Surrey is not banning exotic
animals, rather we are banning the sale of exotic animals. those who can
properly care for these animals will not be affected by this bylaw.
Marvin Hunt
Councillor
Well from what I seen I liked most of BC. I will chat with Bonnie and see what she has to say. LOL
:D :D Nice letter Walter:D :D Hopefully with all the responces they are getting ,this might change a few minds;)
tHeGiNo
07-02-03, 06:38 PM
This may come as offensive to many people, but i just got a reply from a reply form one of the councillors in BC. I replied to him saying:
'I agree, people who don't know how to care for these animals should not be able to purchase them. Why though must we all get punished for the select few who give us a bad name. I say give PET STORES regulations and size limits on animals they are allowed to sell and leave the breeders alone. On this topic, there are certain individuals who's source of income is revolved around breeding reptiles, do you guys every think of things like this?'
His response:
Our target is the pet stores. Personally, I've not thought of breeders as I've never considered breeding reptiles a full time occupation. Marvin Hunt
I don't know, that could be seen as offensive or not I cannot tell the tone in what he was saying.
My take is he's just saying he never thought of breeding reptiles as a full time occupation. I would respond with Even if it's not a full time occupation it's still an income and that often taxes are collected on it.
Scales Zoo
07-02-03, 08:11 PM
The other thing to be carefull of, is to not add fuel to a "puppy mill" kind of argument.
Maybe he thinks the only people who could make a living off of breeding reptiles are those who have thousands of snakes cramped into their basements like an Asian food market.
But most people don't have a clue that people actually breed reptiles as a hobby, much less as a source of income.
At our reptile shows, most people (more than 70%), assume that we have travelled to far away places to catch all of these snakes. They are shocked to learn that 98% of our collection is captive bred animals, and that most of them were hatched right here in Canada.
I then usually go into the speil about there being 2700 species of snakes alone, but not enough zoos in the world....
Ryan
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