Feeding Problems - Advice Needed

[daver676]

Hello All!

I've had my ball python for about 4 weeks now. He is approximately 2 1/2 - 3 months old. My problem is he hasn't eaten yet, and is looking a little "wrinkly". I am extremely concerned. I've tried feeding f/t fuzzy mice, rat pups and hopper mice. I've wiggled them with tongs, dipped in chicken broth, brained, paper bagged. You name it. I've been avoiding feeding live, but I think the time has come. I have made an appointment with the vet, so that base is covered. I plan on trying to feed him a stunned fuzzy mouse or rat pup on Thurs. (June 26). Vet appointment is Saturday (June 28). I'm not sure really what advice I need. The temps in the enclosure are fine. Humidity fine. I haven't handled him in about 3 weeks or so. What the hell is the problem!!

I told myself I wouldn't get frustrated over this, but I think it's come down to life or death. :( If anyone has had this problem, PLEASE REPLY, and let me know how you eventually got your snake to eat, and what it ate, and how it was presented. I want to know EVERYTHING! Thank you so much for your replies!

Dave

[Colonel SB]

Dave 4 weeks isn't that long just keep offering him food and you may want to start misting the cage if you think he is dehidrated. The vet should be able to help you...You doing great just keep resisting the temptation to handle the little guy, I find that is the biggest factor in not eating.

[Piers]

four weeks is nothing, my male albino hasn't eaten in 6 months! And he's only a year old!
Piers

[jwsporty]

Welcome to the world of BP ownership, like Piers said, 4 weeks is nothing. Just watch that he doesn't get dehydrated and if need be get him to a vet for a health check. I have had a few major inroads with a couple of mine. One is a captive hatched, mother was wild, and she just started eating after 6 weeks. I brained a rat pup, heated the head and then dipped in Chicken Broth (not chicken soup..there is a difference) and then I moved my feeding schedule on the BP's to after 9:00 pm(I used to do it in the mornings). One of my originals just got swung onto rat last night. Now this guy has been known to take two hours before actually getting around to eating, last night I did the Chicken Broth /Hot Head thing and within 2 minutes he was happily chowing down. This is exceptional as he has always turned his nose up to rat and he just ate 5 days ago, normally I have to feed this guy on a 10 day schedule. ON the other hand I have had to resort to tube feeding a little guy that came to me as a last ditch attempt for survival and by introducing 10cc of water mixed with a sprinkle of Pedialyte crystal every 2 days he is now starting to plump up again. Last feeding I boosted the dose to 25cc, I added some ground up rat with the mix and he definitely liked that. So far he has had 5 doses and I will try him on the chicken broth rat over the weekend. Wish me luck.

Jim

[tHeGiNo]

Hey there! I am suprised no one has jumped on the fact that he could be shedding. When you say he is 'wrinkly' that is what comes to mind, which might be another reason he is not eating. How often have you been trying to feed? If you haven't taken a weeks break after every attempt this is a problem too.

[daver676]

He looks "wrinkly" because he seems to be losing weight. (or dehydrated). He hasn't had the "blue" phase. Plus, why would he shed if he is shrinking? Isn't sheeding something that happens when a snake grows? I've done all that other stuff, so I'm going to try live tonight. I'm done ****in around.

[baller]

d

[Andy_G]

Daver:I suggest to wait a few more weeks and then go to feeding live for a few times, but after this, keep him on F/T if you can. Keeping him well hydrated will help rid the wrinkliness and shrinking. I suggest putting it to 60-70 if it is lower than that, just until he begins to eat.

Baller: We don't feed live and the reason we don't is not because we think it is cruel, it is because we do not want to risk the health and safety of our snakes. Most wild snakes even have scars because of the food they hunt. I highly reccomend that you switch to dead or F/T prey because an accident will eventually happen even if you are watching it and supervising it, a mouse can bite a snake faster than you can open the tank and grab the mouse to prevent a bite, and I don't think it's worth it.

[baller]

I understand but I guess thats just a risk im gonna take this ball will only eat live and I do not want to waste my money experimenting if he will eat frozen. If he doesnt that would be a waste of my money that i earned. Hes a great eater so im gonna keep it like that. But i hate how some people say stuff about how mean it is to feed live when in the wild they get scratched and kill. Its the way of life and I will just be careful. Before i even bought the snake the petstore said he would only eat live and everytime he does he comes away without a single scratch.

[jwsporty]

Baller: There are hundreds of reasons why you should try to switch to F/T. Most of them are dollars in vet bills if something goes wrong. Whenever I feed live it is with great apprehension because there can be consequences. Personally I don't keep snakes as a throw-away pet nor do they live in a wild environment. They are in a controlled situation housed for their safety and health. Bottom line, it is a threat to feed live in a controlled environment. Probably even worse then in the wild, as the snake can not escape a mouse attack, because he is in a confined area (feed tub) and there simply is no place for him to retreat to. That is the way of life. The sooner you can switch to F/T the better. Try the hothead/chicken broth method I described it is surprising how quickly they will pick up. So far you have been lucky.

Jim

[BurmBaroness]

First, let me state that I in NO WAY advocate feeding live. However, sometimes with neonate BP's it is necessary. To minimize the risks, use a crawler or a hopper that hasn't opened it's eyes yet, hereafter refered to as "blind". Put the BP and the blind hopper/crawler in a delicup or similar container. Allow the blind mouse to scurry around, taking care to intervene if itlooks detrimental to the snake. You CANNOT under any circumstances leave them alone, not even for a second. a blind feeder can still injure a snake, although it's not as likely as one with it's eyes already open. After 2-3 feeds on live, blind hoppers or crawlers, you should then be able to switch to prekilled with no problem. Again, feed prekilled in a small container, changing nothing but the prey. After 2-3 feeds on prekilled, the snake should not have much hesitation in switching to frozen thawed. But I do agree with everyone else that feeding live is VERY dangerous to your snake, and nothing I have eats live, now that the baby BP has gone on to prekilled. the object is to get the BP STARTED eating, once you establish eating, you can then gor to prekilled and then frozen/thawed. Good Luck!

[RepTylE]

What is the big deal about feeding live? Any responsible owner would oversee the feeding anyway so if you were afraid of the prey animal being aggressive you could keep an eye on it. My Ball is a little piggy so the anything with fur on it in his feed box is going down the gullet pretty quick but I'd never leave him unattended until he strikes

[jwsporty]

Reptyle, The big deal is you are playing with a loaded gun and all the best intentions in the world won't make you react any quicker if the mouse turns on the snake, even if the snake has the prey in a death coil. I have had to stick a pen under the jaw of a mouse just in the knick of time before he took a chunk out of the BP once.. They may be fast but if the snake contacts with the prey at the hide quarter, leaving the head to freely move around, the prey will may a last ditch attempt at a strike. If you have to feed live, follow BurmBaroness' Advise and feed the "blind" or stun the mouse first and watch carefully in case they wake up before a strike.

Jim

[daver676]

BurmBaroness,

Thanks for the great instructions!! One question, how big should the container be? I don't know what a deli cup is.

[BurmBaroness]

OK, You know how big a cool whip container is? The little plastic tub? About that size, just put some holes in the top for ventilation. A deli cup is often found at the grocery store in the deli department, it has a white bowl with a clear plastic lid, which I prefer because I can see into the cup to keep an eye out. However a small plastic tote or bowl with a lid will work. Good luck, this trick usually work with baby BP's, you just have to get them STARTED eating on their own, by THEIR choice, then they're pretty easy to go to prekilled and then to frozen thawed. Much luck!

By the way, it is not uncommon for ball pythons to go off feed, however, 4 weeks for a baby is pushing it, especially if it wasn't a good feeder to start with. Babies do not have the reserves of an older more established snake. You were right to be concerned

[daver676]

BurmBaroness,

Yes, my plan is to just get him eating, then switch over to f/t after a few weeks. The guys at the reptile store also mention maybe putting a piece of carrot into the container with the snake and mouse, so the mouse has something to chew on, instead of the snake. Do you think this is a good idea? How long should I leave the snake in there with the mouse?A few hours, or over night, or what?

Thanks for all your help! :)

Dave

[dvs]

man Im glad my little guy is a greedy little pig... last time he ate he put down 2 rat pups no problem... then I threw in a 3rd just to see if he would go for it and sure enough he did... It was a little much but he's still young and my no means close to being over weight so I figure I might as well fatten him up while I can before he starts acting funny on me and stops eating.

I wouldn't risk leaving a live mouse in there with him for to long... if you can try a rat pup since they can't do any harm and you can leave it in there over night with no problems..

Good luck

[baller]

When you feed live it is impossible for a mouse to bite a snake in a death coil. The snakes head wedges between his body making it impossible for anything to even touch his head. Besides I think he strikes so fast that the mouse has a heart attack before he can even react. I watch the whole thing to make sure the mouse does nothing and I can make a promise that my snake will never get bit. Until now I am going to keep feeding live just about all of my friends that have ball pythons do too and they are perfectly healthy.

[dvs]

DUDE... what don't you understand??? whenever you feed live the "POSSIBILITY" (key word) of your snake getting bite is ALWAYS there. You can't promise anything unless the mouse/rat is dead..... If you wanna take that gamble that's fine... nothing may ever happen and I hope for the sake of your snake nothing ever does... but accidents do happen so it's always better to play it safe.

The choice is always yours.... just like putting on your seat beat when you get in a car... better safe then sorry.

[tHeGiNo]

Baller, that has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. Why do you feel it is necessary to feed live? Wait let me guess, as this is the most common thing people with the attitude like yours usually say: it is cool to watch them kill, and they do it in the wild right? Yes, that is right. But what you must understand is that in the wild the mouse is not restricted so a small enclosure for escaping. He can easily get trapped and scared and believe me they can easily kill your snake, especially a ball python. They are more likely to flee, or try to, then defend themselves. Now, to your other ridiculous understatements. First of all it is very well possible for a mouse to attack while being constricted. What happens if the snake misses and doesn't grab the mouse/rat where intended and ends up not being able to make a proper constriction? What happens if your snake misses, bites you and you drop the mouse/rat? What happens if the mouse/rat kickes your ball python scratching him causing him to let go? What happens if you accidentally drop the mouse/rat? There is a huge risk in feeding live and if you cannot see this then you shouldn't be owning any snakes in the first place. Period. Again my main question here is why is it necessary to feed live, when you can feed dead without any possible risk? You should never put the wishes of yourself before the well-being of any animal you own.

[baller]

First of all as I have told you this snake will not eat dead and I am not going to waste my money experimenting or forcing him to eat dead. I know many people who feed live and have no problems. My snake is perfectly fine and has not one scratch. I pet him everyday and he is very happy so dont be judging me and saying, "people with the attitude like yours usually say". I like your advice alot of times but dont say I shouldnt be owning a snake I know whats safe and whats not and me feeding live is perfectly fine.

[BoidKeeper]

When you feed live it is impossible for a mouse to bite a snake in a death coil. The snakes head wedges between his body making it impossible for anything to even touch his head.
With this statement you demonstrated to us how little experience you really have. If you want to save your money that's your business but please be careful when offering you're opinions your lack of experience may cause more harm then good when you're dispensing your advice or offering your opinions about your experiences.
Trevor

[jwsporty]

Baller: ever see a strike on a mouse when it is right in a corner of the tub? I have and that is what almost got my ball into trouble. He hit the a$$ and the mouse swung around, head still totally mobile. So please listen to what the knowledgeable people have to say.


Trevor and Gino, you couldn't have said it better.

[BurmBaroness]

Daver 676,
without getting into the live/dead prey debate, as I oppose live feeding VERY STRONGLY.....................Just leave the BLIND mouse in there for no longer than 30 minutes. If the snake hasn't eaten by then, it's not going to. Don't put a carrot or anything else in there.................the snake only needs to smell the mouse, it must get all of the snake's attention. If the snake doesn't eat the crawler at that point, my advice is to wait 2-3 days, and try again. If the mouse by that time has opened it's eyes, WHACK it and put it in the freezer. That way, you will be able to use it again later, and haven't wasted your money. Not for any reason, would you offer a mouse that has it's eyes open without stunning it first, at which point it won't be moving, and that is the whole point.........it needs to be moving. SO whack and freeze if the eyes are open, and go get another "blind" hopper. He should take the blind mouse within the first few minutes after putting them together, but give him at least 30 minutes. After that, it will only stress him out, and I'd only give him 15 minutes if he were mine. If you stress them with a food item, it tends to put them even more off food. Ball pythons are tricky little buggers to get started, but once started are great snakes. I think your guy will be fine, just be patient. Good Luck!

[daver676]

BurmBaroness,

Again, thanks for the advice. Vet appointment today, and i'll try your suggestion tomorrow(Sunday). I'll let you know how it went. Keep your fingers crossed for me! :)

Baller,

If your trying to just cause trouble, do it in a different topic, cause thats all it sounds like to me.

Dave

[baller]

Nope everyone has there different opinions and I just prefer to feed live it is easier and everytime my snake comes away with a scratch. Im sorry that i got you guys all pissed and you may think that im stupid but i do take good care of my snake and I hope there is no hard feelings.

[daver676]

Well, I just got back from the vet......

He said the snake is very underweight and a little dehydrated. Hell I could have told him that! He only weighs 40 grams. The vet tube fed him there, and then told me to try and feed a live pinkie tomorrow, and if he didn't eat, to kill and force feed the pinkie to him. Looks like I've got a job ahead of me. :(

[Jeff_Favelle]

just prefer to feed live it is easier and everytime my snake comes away with a scratch


Everytime he comes away with a scratch and you still feed live? You're weird. And not too bright.

[baller]

I meant without a scratch *******.

[tHeGiNo]

Exactly my point baller, you said it for me, your putting yourself before the well-being of the animal and thats not right.

[BurmBaroness]

Daver676,
What did the vet tube feed? Fluids? If it was just fluids, then I would offer a prey item like I explained before. If a pinkie is smaller than you BP's largest girth, then it is too small, and he may not be interested, but you can try that. Force feeding is a LAST resort. I don't know your vet, so not judging, but some vets just don't know much about herps. shots for appetite, and antibiotics when there is no infection are 2 things I see alot. I have dealt with my share of sick and non eating snakes, most of them rescues, and force feeding is the last option. I would try the method I already explained first, because that will get him to start eating on his own. If the vet tubed more than just fluids, the snake will not be hungry tomorrow.............jeez. And that would likely make him regurge is he was force fed after receiving more than fluids the day before. you don't want to get the little guy in the habit of regurging. However, here's my suggestion. Providing the vet ONLY tubed fluids, offer prey as I explained before. If he doesn't take it, the I would ASSIST feed, not force feed. Just gently open the snake's mouth, and put the head of the prey item in there. The snake should go ahead and start swallowing. GOod luck, I hope everything goes well. Keep us updated!

[daver676]

BurmBaroness,

The vet gave him more than fluids. It looked like can cat food (but it was something else), but he only gave the snake about 3-4 mL of it. Not much at all. And yes, it was with a tube. He said other than the weight loss and a little dehydration, the snake was in perfect health. He didn't give the snake any shots or meds.

Dave

[BurmBaroness]

Good deal. You can try with the plan I gave ya. but don't be surprised if he's not interested. 3-4 cc's is still enough to make him feel like he has eaten. I would try the method I gove you before, and if he's not interested, I would wait a couple of days and try again. Then, if he doesn't eat, you can think about assist feeding the little guy. It's very stressful to force feed, and even to assist feed, although there are times when it must be done. good luck, and keep us posted, I'm thinking of you and the little bugger:)

[daver676]

Well, me and my gf assist fed him on Sunday, on the vets instructions. As soon as we put the mouse in his mouth he constricted it and swallowed it. The mouse was stunned, and still had a little life in it, so I think that may have triggered more of a feeding response. The vet also advised putting a little corn oil on the feeder so it would go down easier, which we did, and it worked good, but I don't think we'll do it again. I don't want the snake thinking it's food will always smell like corn oil, although if it means he'll eat it, then whatever.

Since he has eaten he is not very active, and spends alot of time on the warm side of his enclosure. Is this normal? I imagine he is pretty stressed from the feeding, but at least he has eaten something! Thanks for the advice BurmBaroness, and I'll let you know how he progresses! :)

Dave

[LISA127]

Originally posted by baller
Feed live it is better to just quit feeling sorry for a stupid rodent and let your snake do the buisness. Besides it is kindaof fun to watch and if you tape it and put it in slow motion it is hilarious.


Ppl who keep snakes for this reason piss me off! It is hilarious in slow motion?! What an ignorant thing to say. You may not have to feel sorry for the rodent, because it is nature, but u don't have to find it enjoyable, either. :mad:

[killaclown]

I enjoy it for 2 reasons. My snake is fat and healthy becuase its eating , and i get to see the worlds best hunters doing what they do best. Yea i dont feel sorry for the rat or mouse but its the way of life.

[BoidKeeper]

Man I can't wait for your snake to get nailed good!
Trevor

[BurmBaroness]

Daver676,
Just was hoping to bump this up and get an update on the little guy. Was wondering how he's doing. Thanks!
Burm Baroness

[snakehunter]

trevor, you call yourself a herper, thats f###ed up wishing that someones snake gets bit! that is wrong, i could understand wishing a bad thing on killaclown, but a snake, bretheren to your own, you are sick.

oh and about the cruelty issue, these mice are bred to do two things grow and get eaten, DIE,thats their sole porpuse.

THE AMUSEMENT PART IS JUST A PLUS!!!!!!!

[baller]

Thank you snakehunter and however i wish to watch the stupid rodent die is my concern. So stop telling me this and that.

[jwsporty]

Hey snakehunter,

Go back and read the whole thread and then put it into context. You obviously missed the point. Boidkeeper is not wishing harm on the animal, he is simply fed up with the BS and attitude. And if Vet bills is what it takes get the point across then so be it. Likewise I feel the same, I will put a lot more creedance in what Trevor (posts 1100) has said then what I am reading from certain other members. I came to this site to learn and help others but lately I have seen way too much from people who are buying animals on a whim, clearly not knowledgeable and not prepared, clearly not interested in bettering their herp experience, clearly not interested in heeding good advice, and clearly shouldn't own herps of any form. So for all the people that fit into these categories and are looking for the "amusement", I invite you to visit this website

www.joecartoon.com

you want your ha'ha's, you can find them there


Anything else beyond this is a waste of my time and bandwidth. Now where did I put that ignore button?

[jwsporty]

Daver,

glad to hear you got some food into your little guy. Likewise I have been working with a de-hydrated baby with a weak feeding response. Yesterday he got his second assist feed and he took to it with little problem. What I did was take a pinky first (yeah I know it small but it is a good lead-in, just before he finished the pinky, I lined up a F/T Hopper directly behind the pinky and he just kept gobbling, I finished off by giving him one more pinky. By volume that was close to the size of a small adult mouse. Doing this, I believe put a little less stress on the animal as he didn't have to work as hard to get the first one in and then his natural feeding response kicked in. I am now going to let my guy rest from food for two solid weeks, now that I have him plumped up, out of danger and with a full belly. I am hoping that will get him feeding on his own.

Yes it is normal for them to hide away while digesting. Just keep your tank temps in check. Try taking away his water two days before his next feed and then when you are ready give him his food wet. Also I wouldn't worry too much about the snake getting used to the smell of vegetable oil.

Hope this helps

Jim

[killaclown]

Originally posted by BoidKeeper
Man I can't wait for your snake to get nailed good!
Trevor

Dang man how could you be so mean my snake never done anything to you plus how can a baby rat nail my snake lol. It cant even walk let alone bite. This is my lve feed system i feed them harmless pinkies, my baby is the the only one eating aldult mice my aldult corns and balls are eating pinkie and fuzzy mice. When i get my red tails there going to eat f\k. Even though i have too much heart to kill a mouse

[baller]

I dont understand a lot of people who say so much bad things about people who feed live. There are tons of people here that do it and I have not once seen people critisize like the way people are on this forum.

[BoidKeeper]

You're right there are lots of people who feed live, it's the justification of the act that makes all the difference gentlemen, it's the justification.
Trevor
jwsporty; you summed it up perfectly.

[lilyskip]

JW--I'm curious about the brained/heating-head method. How do you heat the head/what do you use to brain the mouse? I'm getting my first bp in a week or so, and am trying to anticipate feeding problems.

[daver676]

BurmBaroness,

Well, I was going to give you an update tike last week, but got called in to have a kidney transplant!!! Well my gf says the snake is doing good. He's mkoving around and flickin g more so thats a good thing. Well gotta go this typing is making me tired! I'll keep in touch.

Dave

[BoidKeeper]

Now that is a reason to be away! I'm glad you back.
Best wishes to the both of you,
Trevor

[killaclown]

Yea me to good luck

[BurmBaroness]

WOW! I hope everything goes great for you, and I'm glad the ball python seems to be better. I'll keep you both in my thoughts