Death Due To Live Prey!!!

[gonesnakee]

Today was just going too good with my Vietnamese Blue Beauties hatching & all. Then the phone rings. Its a friend that I sold a farmed BP to last year. You know the type of BP I mean. One of those mass marketed no guarantees deals that I myself hate, but being a hypocrit I bought some from buddy anyway. They only cost me $40 each & I couldn't stand to see them kept the way they were about to be, all together in overcrowded conditions, in their own filth etc. So I bought them & found them good homes. The 3/4 that lived anyway & of course of the remaining 3, 1 won't eat nothing but live prey. Gotta love that farmed ****. Next best thing to wildcaught. Back to todays phone call. My friend just finished all her cleaning & feeding which included a large live hopper for the BP. Even though it is a yearling it is an appropriate size meal for the snake because they tried so long to get it too feed & finally gave in too live prey because of fear the snake would starve. Despite future efforts to get it on dead/thawed they had a "live feeder" snake. Anyway the snake had eaten & she had watched it do so, no problems & it climbed up to bask. She comes back 5 minutes later & the snake is acting like it is choking or something & its on its back drooling & twiching so she gets me on the phone. The snake stops & acts "normal" again for a minute & then gets all spazzy & keeps coiling & uncoiling itself for about 30 seconds or so & then it is dead. There was no signs of anything wrong with the snake prior to what you have just read. I told her that in my opinion the snake probably only stunned the prey & it "came out of it" & fought for its life inside the snake & is most likely responsible for its death. Can anyone else suggest anything else that this may be other than another death due to live prey because thats what I'm going with. Just another example of why to buy captive born & bred animals & not feed live. It really sucked having to be on the phone with my friend as her snake died in front of her & the only thing I could do for her was to offer her a great deal on a new snake to try & make up for her loss. Hardly appropriate. Worse yet I could do absolutlely nothing for her BP, R.I.P. little one. Anyhow this is far too depressing, I think I'll go look at my new babies to cheer me up. Mark I.
P.S. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ONLY USE LIVE PREY AS FIRST MEALS FOR BABIES & AS A LAST RESORT! >(

[Vanan]

Man! That's though. Sorry to hear about that Mark! Guess live prey isn't just dangerous outside the snake. Yikes!

Although she did have a tough call and had no choice (by the sounds of it) to feed it live. Plus she was watching it till it finished eating. Who would have thought that the snake would have been killed from inside! Sorry once again man.

[Colonel SB]

I'm sorry to hear about your friends loss :(

[gonesnakee]

Well I'm still not happy about it, but am happy about you people & your support. I have already recv. a private message from a BP breeder offering a cheap replacement to try & ease the pain. I have a feeling my friends will get something right away to fill that empty enclosure. Just goes to show that things fight back when eaten alive, DOH! I also have another reason to feel way better because Kyle just called to tell me the first Eastern Indigo egg has pipped, WOO HOO! So today along with the sadness of this death I have many things still to be very thankfull for & I am glad. Mark I.

[Linds]

Can't say that I've ever heard of this happening before...egadz! No matter how cautious we can be, freak accidents can and will happen... poor thing :(

[Andy_G]

That poor snake. I'm so sorry!

[The_Omen]

I would deffinately reccomend a necropsy on the snake to ensure no other factors involved such as any mite & tick sprays that may have been used on or near the feeders as a preventative or nuerological problems.

From the desription, I am leaning towards a nuerological reaction to something that really needs to be determined, such as disease or toxins.
I seriously doubt that the prey revived inside the snake, even if it was merely unconscience due to the massive squeezing it recieves during the act of swallowing. along with a lack of any breathable air.
As for a very possible nuerological reaction to a toxin, or disease, I would deffinately want to know for sure as to prevent any more deaths due to an unknown factor.
Why risk the entire collection over tainted food sources or an illness not yet detected?


P.S. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ONLY USE LIVE PREY AS FIRST MEALS FOR BABIES

This I do not agree with. Many snakes, colubrids up to boas and pythons, will take dead prey as the first meals.
Besides, this phrase really doesn't fit well with a post about a possible death due to live feeding.(necropsy needed!!!)
Start them on dead and you will have better odds at retaining them on dead.

[Lisa]

I'd sooner assist feed then feed a prey capable of hurting my snake.

[The_Omen]

She comes back 5 minutes later & the snake is acting like it is choking or something & its on its back drooling & twiching

In that span of time, the food was deader than a rock.

Something else caused this death besides a dead feeder.

[gonesnakee]

Omen you have taken a quote out of context on the "P.S." part you missed the end "& AS A LAST RESORT" so therefore we do not nessicarily disagree. I would be meaning pinkie mice & small fuzzies for bigger babies & only to help get them started on dead/thawed. To which you may disagree. Also I was thinking more like the mouse incurred some damage on the way down & it was probably more like a couple of minutes (not 5 like I had stated )& that the snake was just beginning to react to a possible internal injury. I too had mentioned to her the only way to know for sure would be a "post mortem" , but they having had only the one snake at the present probably won't DOH. The toxin thing on the prey is a good point & makes some sense based on the snakes behaviour so a person will have to follow up on the food source, more than likely a local pet shop. So you figure something that they would possibly be using to control parasites on the mice could be the culprit Omen? Is there any past cases of this that anyone knows of for sure? You definitely have me thinking on that one Omen.
I don't think disease is valid in this case, but if someone out there knows of one that will do something like this to an otherwise healthy animal let us know. Still sucks & needs closure.
Mark P.S. THX Omen you gave me a whole new angle to check.

[The_Omen]

Nope, it wasn't out of context.
The part I disagree with is as the first meal as many will take dead as the first meal.
The '& as a last resort' - I agree with, just prior to a series of tube feeding in a snake that is degrading too quickly. Sometimes you can't avoid it, as it is a possibility in getting a stubborn snake to eat.
But yes, chems in the feeders is very possible, even an accidental ingestation of chemicals from the snake ingesting treated substrate during the feeding.

Some common treatments for mites and ticks, such as spraying diluted ivermectin on boids, although harmless for them, is deadly for treating other snakes, such as pit vipers.
I do know someone that learned about ivermectin and pits after the fact of a dead baby copper.
This person has been keeping reptiles for over 20 years, but this was one of his first hots.
I am lucky in that case as I learned from it as I had never previously used ivermectin, yet learned valuable information.

[reverendsterlin]

I too doubt that the prey revived. Constrictors in general will not lossen on prey until no movement is detected, including heartbeat. Many folks will think their animals is holding on long after the prey is dead, when in most cases the snake still detects a heartbeat and is making sure the job is done. I would look closely for another cause before introducing another animal into the same area.

[Invictus]

With regard to the live prey thing.. I got into a debate with someone who only feeds his snake live prey. I lectured him about it, telling him what the end result can be. Finally I said "Ok, tell you what.. next time you want a steak, I'm going to give you a live cow! Let's see if you still get your steak without an injury!"

I mean, I've never heard of a live pinkie hurting a snake, but really... when the prey can bite back, it's time to force feed F/T, IMHO.

[The_Omen]

"Ok, tell you what.. next time you want a steak, I'm going to give you a live cow! Let's see if you still get your steak without an injury!"

I'll take him up on that offer!
I have plenty of room in my floor freezer and just enuf courage to tackle a cow!:rolleyes:

[gonesnakee]

Ya better watch out Omen because we don't have just ordinary Cows up here in Alberta, we have "MAD COWS" LOL Mark

[Solid Snake]

can't the snake get an autopsy(sp?) from a vet? im curious and i highly doubt anything could revive back somewhere where there is absolutely no air.

freaky...

sorry for the loss

[gonesnakee]

Followed up on the toxin theory & there was zero evidence of anything to support it. Prey was from the same source as always & was meant to be prey. The store uses nothing on them that would be toxic for the snake to eat anyway. There was no other toxins present in the shavings or in the air for that matter. All conditions were the same as they always had been, nothing had changed. So any other guesses?
As far as the prey "reviving" I meant that it may have happened on the way down & possibly caused an injury that the snake succumbed to right after its ingestion. We all know that its not likely to come alive in a belly full of stomach acid. Anyhow other than running some "toxology tests' I don't think we'll know. She did freeze the snake so if someone I knew wanted to run such tests they could feel free. She (or me as far as it goes) is not willingly to spend the $200+ dollars the vet quoted to have it done. Imagine that she doesn't want to lose another $200 to change nothing about her snake being dead. They can do a basic autopsy (sp) for around $50 , but that basically tells you nothing. Either way she doesn't want to spend any money on her dead pet. She would be more than willing to take it to the vet in the beginning, but the poor little one never had the chance to go with it all happening so quick. Anyhow there is still no closure.
Mark