Yet another example of why not to feed live... [Archive]

Naära

06-15-03, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by peregrinefalcon
Naara, your snakes could still be badly hurt while you are watching them, rodents are quick little devils and a bite to the head or eye could turn out really bad.
Adam

I'm very aware of that! But I have snakes who just don't want to eat dead. So I have no choice.
I know it's very easy and safe if your snakes eat dead prey but that just doesn't always work.
I hate it when people call you stupid when you feed alive! Don't judge anyone when you don't know the person or the situation! I'm crazy about my animals and no one is going to harm them!

By the way, how do you think snakes feed in the wild! They are predators you know! And yes, sometimes they get bit in the wild. But here I am to prevent that. And I do a very good job at it.

Zoe

06-15-03, 02:45 PM

Naara, is it just your BPs who won't eat dead? If so, I suggest you take measures to put them on dead. There are ways, very rarely can you truly say that your snake definitely won't, under any circumstance, take dead.
I'm not calling you stupid, but it isn't always possible to prevent a bite to a snake. It takes half a second, and I'd like to see someone stop a mouse that's a few inches away from the snake, from biting the snake's eye. WHile if supervised the mouse probably won't inflict fatal damage, a bite is more than possible.

Yes, snakes eat live in the wild. They also get eaten by predators, have mites and parasites and ticks, are sometimes forced to go months without food etc etc etc. Why would you want to recreate parts of their wild habitat which endangers them?

Zoe

Zoe

06-15-03, 02:50 PM

Here Naara I found a couple articles you might find helpful:

http://www.proexotics.com/FAQ_answers_Why_do_you_suggest_feeding_thawed.html

http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_01.asp

Naära

06-15-03, 02:59 PM

You know, these are really non-solvable questions. Here in Holland there a little easier on you when you have snakes who really won't eat alive. They accept that you have a difficult snake and are happy that it will eat and that you want to take the time to watch them closely.
My older BP has gone trough hell with his previous owner and when I just had him he was very ill and almost died. It took me very much trouble to finally get him to eat. And the only thing he eats is live prey. I thank God he eats and gets healthier by the day. When I drop a mouse in it hardly gets the chance to take three steps before getting killed.
So I do understand your point of view but please, believe that I care a lot for my animals and that not every snake is as easy as yours.
Another thing is that in Holland most BP are still WC or FB. We aren't as far as you are. Even BP breeding is still very hard here. So maybe in ten years or so we breed them easy and get every snake so far to eat dead. But at this moment it just is very hard and with some snakes impossible.

depressor86

06-15-03, 05:22 PM

it sounds like your bp is a good striker now!
maybe you can try pre-killed and dangle it in the enclosure with tongs?

peregrinefalcon

06-15-03, 07:22 PM

I never called you stupid and never judged you, I was just giving you some facts. If you want to feed them live then feed away, just be aware that it is very dangerous. As for them in the wild, yes thats how they feed, but captivity is not the wild.
Adam

Naära

06-16-03, 12:20 AM

Originally posted by peregrinefalcon
I never called you stupid and never judged you, I was just giving you some facts. If you want to feed them live then feed away, just be aware that it is very dangerous. As for them in the wild, yes thats how they feed, but captivity is not the wild.
Adam

I didn't mean you when I said that. I was just talking about many people who do say those things.
I really now the risks but if your snake simply won't take dead you cannot let him stave so feed live and be aware.

Naära

06-16-03, 12:23 AM

Originally posted by depressor86
it sounds like your bp is a good striker now!
maybe you can try pre-killed and dangle it in the enclosure with tongs?

He definatley is! When the mouse comes in he aims for the head, grabs it over the head (yes, he's really smart for a BP) and it's dead within 15 seconds.

And I tried everything, believe me. He just turns his head and goes away (just like he wants to say: Do you really think I would go for that). :p

peregrinefalcon

06-16-03, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by Naära
I didn't mean you when I said that. I was just talking about many people who do say those things.
I really now the risks but if your snake simply won't take dead you cannot let him stave so feed live and be aware.

Then I wish you and your ball python the best of luck! Just wondering, have you tried just stunning the mouse so it is still alive? If not maybe you should try that.
Adam

Naära

06-16-03, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by peregrinefalcon
Then I wish you and your ball python the best of luck! Just wondering, have you tried just stunning the mouse so it is still alive? If not maybe you should try that.
Adam

I'll try that. Thanks for the tip.

Zoe

06-16-03, 03:35 PM

Naara, please don't take offense to this but if you haven't even tried stunned prey you probably haven't tried a lot of the other methods that exist out there to convert your snakes to live. If you have healthy ball pythons with a good feeding response they WILL take dead. I strongly encourage you to read those two articles I gave you. They provide counter-arguments and methods of converting that work 98% of the time (probably 99.9% of the time when used on healthy animals).

Zoe

Linds

06-16-03, 05:18 PM

Poor thing. Saw something similar the other day. I was just asked to go check out a rescue a friend aquired... 5' boa with its tail from vent to tip totally gnawed... didn't look like tail anymore... looked like dried up raw bacon :eek:

Originally posted by depressor86

my blood got bit my a mouse....

never i mean NEVER left a LIVE mouse un attended!!!!! "

I think that's a bunch of BS personally... although injuries can easily occur while watching, that injury isn't a quick bite in the wrong spot, its been gnawed on for some time to get to that degree......

Naära

06-17-03, 05:07 AM

Originally posted by Zoe
Naara, please don't take offense to this but if you haven't even tried stunned prey you probably haven't tried a lot of the other methods that exist out there to convert your snakes to live. If you have healthy ball pythons with a good feeding response they WILL take dead. I strongly encourage you to read those two articles I gave you. They provide counter-arguments and methods of converting that work 98% of the time (probably 99.9% of the time when used on healthy animals).

Zoe

He won't take dead prey!!! How many times must I repeat myself? I'm really getting tired of everyone telling me how to feed him. I know you only want to give good advise but I'm working on him for a long time and I know him inside out. I tried everything (even stunning but I was very tired yesterday and didn't have the energy to go into that discussion all over again since I've already told that I tried everything. Sorry that I did that, I gave you the wrong impression). I got him to take dead once but then he pushed so hard on it that it broke and he got all the mouse intestings over him. That scared him so much that he never touches anything that doesn't look very alive any more.

But besides of me taking care of my snakes the story here was all about the photo of that poor snake (and that's the only thing I reacted on because I know (I learned it already in school, had a veterinarian education) that feeding is always a point of, unfortunately, endless discussions). Whatever your opinion is about feeding dead or live the point is that this snake has been left alone with the mouse. As Linds also said, this isn't a quick bite during feeding! This had to take a lot more then a few seconds.

KrokadilyanGuy3

06-17-03, 05:31 AM

Beautiful snake, sorry misfortune.. I must ask however, how did it die from tail wounds? I couldn't see any other marks that showed that a mouse took a bite out of besides the tail. Maybe because of the flash? Is there a story?

Emily-Fisher

06-17-03, 05:37 AM

Well then maybe it's about he time he learns how to!!! There are several easy ways.

1. Have you tried scenting a mouse? Or just cut open the dead mouse's head and let some brain matter show. At the store, no snake has a problem eating scented mice.
2. Stun the mouse!! What I do for problematic feeders is I take a mouse, hold it by the tail and wack it's head against an edge. The mouse is still twitching its leg so quickly through it in front of the snake's head and right away, he will eat it. Each time, hit the mouse harder until finally at one feeding, the mouse is dead. The snake will be so used to eating mice that are barely moving that he might not even notice that the last one is dead!! I know, this method is really torturing the mouse but what can I say? It worked for my corn and now he eats dead with no problem!
3. Dangle the dead mouse in front of the snake's face. it will look like the mouse is moving therefor the snake will probably snatch it up right away.

Naära

06-17-03, 06:54 AM

Originally posted by Emily-Fisher
Well then maybe it's about he time he learns how to!!! There are several easy ways.

1. Have you tried scenting a mouse? Or just cut open the dead mouse's head and let some brain matter show. At the store, no snake has a problem eating scented mice.
2. Stun the mouse!! What I do for problematic feeders is I take a mouse, hold it by the tail and wack it's head against an edge. The mouse is still twitching its leg so quickly through it in front of the snake's head and right away, he will eat it. Each time, hit the mouse harder until finally at one feeding, the mouse is dead. The snake will be so used to eating mice that are barely moving that he might not even notice that the last one is dead!! I know, this method is really torturing the mouse but what can I say? It worked for my corn and now he eats dead with no problem!
3. Dangle the dead mouse in front of the snake's face. it will look like the mouse is moving therefor the snake will probably snatch it up right away.

Tried it. Didn't work.

Scales Zoo

06-17-03, 07:07 AM

One method that has worked in the past on ball pythons is to remove the water for at least a couple of days. Then offer a wet f/t rodent, a little smaller than what he would normally eat. What happens is the snake is thirsty, and will try to suck up as much water off the thawed rodent as he can. If the prey is somewhat small, they will often open up and actually eat it in their attempt to drink. I cannot guarantee it will work, but it is worth a try. I use this trick on all stubborn feeders with much success.
Our BP Kirby had gone 18 months without eating anything, even live. The former owner operated a store and knew what he was doing, and had tried live, stunned p/k and f/t mice, rats, gerbils, degus and every other type of rodent prey he could find. In exasperation he sent the snake to our rescue as he was certain it was going to die.

Zoe

06-17-03, 09:04 AM

Naara - it probably won't try the first time. If you just give up and throw in a mice, then of course he'll never switch. If you parents had offered you a humburger everytime you wouldn't eat you veggies, you'd never eat your veggies.

I know you're sick of hearing this but I find it very hard to believe that you've correctly tried every method over a correct time period and that nothing has worked. You said he took dead once... well you know he can! Just because he broke it I doubt it scared him. If it did, he's forgotten by now.

If he's got decent weight on, try a dead rat (using different methods every time) every week, but don't feed him a live one if he doesn't eat a dead one. He won't starve to death in a few weeks (I am currently starving my IJs to take rats, they've been a couple months without food and are fine) and imagine not having to deal with such a hassle? You wouldn't have to feed mice anymore, you could feed rats (he's an adult, right?).

You seem to adopting a non-changing attitude, as in "he'll only take live, so I'm not going to put much effort into changing" (no worries I went through that until I got sick of feeding my carpets 10 mice a week!)

I've copied a couple paragraphs for that article I posted in hopes you'll read them here and try them out. If your BP is healthy, it may take a while, but there is no reason that it will never switch to dead.

Hold the mouse or rat by the back, below the neck, high on the spine. "Dangling" by the tail is less effective, and gives poor "aim". If the snake is puzzled by the stillness of the prey item, give it a little wiggle, a little movement, and it will become quite enticing.

Ball pythons, on the other hand, are extremely head shy, and it is best not to touch the snake, but instead hold the mouse completely still in front of it’s nose. A Ball python may take it’s time, but it will strike (and often miss, they seem to have the WORST aim in the reptile kingdom).

Go with feeders that are 50-60% of the regular weekly size, one live (ugh!) or fresh killed, and one thawed. Feed your regular meal first, and then pay attention. A smaller prey item should be consumed pretty quickly (that’s the "prime"), and that is when you pounce. Immediately after the snake has swallowed the first item (allow for that full "get in the stomach" stretch), offer the thawed rodent to your snake. Snakes are instinctive feeders, and it is hard for the animal to shut off the triggered feeding response. Your animal should snap up the second item with gusto.

Other methods are braining, chicken broth scenting, stunning... the list really goes on and on.

Zoe

marisa

06-17-03, 09:11 AM

Your BP refuses partially killed rodents as well?

As in....you whack one on a hard surface hard enough to partially disable it but not kill it all the way....I find it hard to believe he would refuse this as he wouldn't know the differance, also after he accepts this, you are soooo much closer to him accteping fresh kills and then F/T. As this is the SAME as live, but not live. Yes this also presents a danger of the mouse bitting but full healthy live mice are even worse.

Marisa

Ed_r

06-17-03, 09:34 AM

If you had a REAL oddbal seldom kept in captivity snake I could possibly agree with feeding live , BUT there is no Ball Python, or Boa, or cornsnake. That You can not get to eat frozen thawed. I have 2 w/c Ball pythons that ar big enough but would only EASILY eat live rats. Easily is the key word. They would not touch it if it was stunned, or fresh killed. After a long hunger strike. I got worried and offerred a f/t mouse(all i had in small prey was f/t. Now a snake that would Never EVER take a f/t rat , absolutely crushed this f/t mouse. Now it eats 3 Jumbo f/t mice a week.

They ALL can be switched!!!

One real good trick I have used and it works really good. Take the f/t mouse and on hemostats, grab it on the nape of the neck, and bounce it around the cage like its walking around. Brought mine around instantly. Also when doing this start the prey item far away from the snake. Other wise if you go in right in front of it you will spook the snake and it wont eat. But if you start further away the snake will get very curious. It's almost like teasing a cat with a string.
Your notice the same head movements. When it starts to show interest , take the mouse further away, Now the snake gets antsy, so in another time close or 2 WHAM!!!.

Just remember, You CANNOT train a snake. You have to train yourself to the snakes requirements. You have made a commitment to this snake to give it the best care. f/t IS the best care. In the wild if they come upon a freshly dead prey item they WILL eat it.

Watching your snake while you feed live will do no good.
2 scenarios.
1) You watch the snake mouse gets close to the snake, doesnt bite( but your real nervouse it will) the mouse keeps doing this without a bite,. you think the mouse is tame and wont bite. you let your guard down and then the mouse bites the snake, and your not ready. Ooops.

2) Your snake is real hungry and an agressive feeder, you still watch to be "safe" Snake bites and constricts. As we all know the mouse/rat does not die for a good 15-45 seconds. Sometimes lots of struggling. While in the coils the prey item deside to take one final attempt at life and start biting the snake while in the coils. What do you do? Take a blunt object and try to land a killing blow to the head of the prey item, and hope not to miss and hit your snake, breaking its ribs and maybe spine? Or do you grab the snake and try to unravell a very hungry snake thats only mindset is to eat and eat NOW. You will get bit Bad, the snake will be soo stressed from you trying to unravel it, The prey item will keep biting, since your actually loosening the coils of the snake. Big ooops and you just watched and help it to happen.

Then follows the post My snake gt bit by a mouse/rat, or worse "my snake got killed today."

If you love the animal you will find a way to feed it f/t. YES there is always a way. ALWAYS!!!

Sorry for my rant, Just hard to handle seeing people not see the big picture of feeding live, and saying "Oh this won't happen to me" Yes it will it's a matter of time.

Naära

06-17-03, 09:54 AM

Pfff, this will be my last post in this topic because we just don't get any further.
You all seem to doubt my capability so grab a plane, get to Holland and try it yourself!!!
I've tried to talk it over with you guys but I'm sick of being made into a person who doesn't seem to take care of her snakes in the right way.

Good day to you all, I'm going somewhere where they respect each other instead of simply ventilate their opinion as the only good way.

Ed_r

06-17-03, 09:57 AM

Send me a ticket.

No One disrespected you. YOu are the one unwilling to try things for the safety of your animals. Anyone that will tell you what you want to hear is doing you no help. Geeee all these people said i was ok to feed live and yet this rat bit my snake....

Zoe

06-17-03, 10:37 AM

Naara, I'd love an opportunity to take your BPs for a month or two. I'd guarantee they'd be on f/t by the time they got back to you.

It's unfortunate that you think that we're disrespecting you, because no one is. We are simply interested in the best interest of the snake and find it VERY unlikely that you've tried everything correctly and that nothing has worked.

I mean, first you said you tried everything, but you hadn't even tried stunned! I know you said you already did it but I'll try that. Thanks for the tip. DOESN'T sound like it. I also doubt you've read the articles i send, or giving much thought to them if you have.

I also see a snake getting bitten in the future, and am very sorry for your BPs. You may think that nothing will happen, that because you're watching nothing will go wrong, but you're wrong. So much can! It takes a second for a snake to be blinded or seriously injured, and lets face it, BPs don't have the best aim and don't always grab the prey correctly.

I hope you can learn to accept this advice and save your ball pythons some future pain and injury. As previously stated, none of this was meant to offend or disrespect.

ventilate their opinion as the only good way.

This isn't OPINION, it's FACT! Do you actually think it's better to feed live than dead???\

peregrinefalcon

06-17-03, 11:21 AM

KrokadilyanGuy3, I don't know the whole story but it could have died from blood loss, infection, not being able to remove waste properly (it looks like it was chewed past the vent) or many other things. Whatever happened I'm sure it was very painful :(
Adam

vanderkm

06-17-03, 01:41 PM

There is no doubt that feeding thawed prey is completely safe for the snake, and feeding live prey has risks, but the choice is not as easy as many of these posts imply. It can be very stressful and difficult to convert ball pythons to thawed prey, for both the owner and the snake.

We worked with a pair of 12 year old (WC) balls that had been given live until we got them. It was our decision to continue feeding live prey (gerbils) after attempting to switch them because the stress involved for them from prolonged stavation and repeated teasing with thawed prey that was scented, brained or presented from different angles, was worse (in my opinion) than the risk of a bite from the prey.

I was not prepared to make the snakes miserable continuously, to avoid the very low risk of a bad bite. I was also not willing personally to be constantly frustrated, to waste prey that was not eaten, or to deal with the hassle of a non-feeding snake, when the risk of a bad outcome was low if the situation was closely managed. Selfish, perhaps; but my choice, none the less.

My experience with snakes that are accustomed to feeding on live prey is that they are far better at striking accurately than those fed killed. These snakes relied on prey behaviour to signal them to strike and they were never fooled by stunned prey - in fact they were frightened of a thrashing, stunned gerbil and withdrew rather than striking. I don't think they recognized a slack, dead animal as food - they responded immediately to a live gerbil peeking into the hidebox and they didn't miss.

We never left the prey in unsupervised, we fed infreqeuntly enough that the snakes were hungry when prey was presented so they were in hunt mode, we signaled feeding was coming by misting the hide box to alert the snake, and we still had one instance where a snake was bitten while constricting the gerbil. It was a minor bite that healed without treatment. Certainly it could have been worse if it was the snake's eye, but, in my opinion, the risk of that is just not high enough to make me change my decision and make the snake's life miserable for months on end to convert him.

Based on our experience, I would never get a wild caught ball python, I would never start one on live prey, and I would never feed one a gerbil. I also have not changed my mind that we did what was best for these snakes and ourselves - I would choose to feed live if faced with the same decision now.

I advocate feeding only thawed prey, but I think it is important to remember that there is a balance between risk and benefit in any situation. Not all the snakes we keep nor the people we are in contact with can be forced to do things our way, nor should they be.

just an alternate point of view,

mary v.

Zoe

06-17-03, 02:04 PM

Mary - I do agree with you to an extent, and all your points are valid, but I would still rather convert a snake to f/t. I know the risks are low, but it's the "it'll never to my snake" attitude that can result in a bite. In your case it was minor and you're lucky (hopefully nothing worse will ever happy :)), but there's still a risk. Is it really worth taking it just to save yourself some frustration and the snake a couple month of starvation? I'm not questioning your methods (what I just wrote was meant generally) because I know you know your snakes, and I have fed my IJ a live gerbil before to stimulate eating after she fasted (stomach rot was the cause, I believe). She got it right on the nose (she was on a branch and I offered it to her in a box, and she grabbed it perfectly), and I count myself very lucky that she didn't get hurt! Maybe a little on the paranoid side :)

But I don't think Naara sees it the way you do. I've noticed her attitude to be "well, I tried a couple times and it didn't work, so I'm sick of trying and don't bug me about it because you're not even right." (i could be wrong, but that's the impression I'm getting). If she starved the snakes for a month or two, tried a couple different scents and level of death (? lol) in the mouse then fine, but it didn't even sound like she'd tried stunned before. There's a big difference between quitting for the sake of the snake after much trying and quitting because you tried a couple times and don't feel like it anymore. Know what I'm saying?

I guess I'm just very much against feeding live. I've seen and heard of so many bites (some resulting in blindness, death, or stays at the vets) even when they were supervised (except death when supervised). I think if the snake is healthy and has good weight, a couple months if small stress once a week doesn't compare to years of easy feedings and zero risk of injury caused by the rodent (unless the snake chokes :D).

Zoe

vanderkm

06-17-03, 11:08 PM

I totally agree Zoe that it is best to convert a snake to thawed. I just think there are some circumstances and some snakes where it is not worth it. Everyone will draw that line at different places - some will work a lot harder at the conversion and other people will be willing to live with the possibility of problems that come with not converting a snake. I support people trying to explain their viewpoint and appreciate how much the people on this list care about herps, and try to prevent the problems that come from feeding live.

I also agree that it is hard to assess someone's attitude from posts on forums, especially when people are passionate in their opinions. One thing I really have enjoyed about the forums on this site is that people can disagree in a caring way and I just wanted to bring up some points that we had eperienced for people to consider - not that I would advocate feeding live, but that I can understand why someone would choose to do it, and there are instances where I would support their decision.

Just felt the need to share a different point of view on this issue and appreciate your response (my husband can't believe anyone actually read how much I wrote!)

mary v.

V.hb

06-19-03, 10:49 AM

I dont think Zoe has dealt with a wild caught ball that wont eat. Ive seen them kept in PERFECT conditions and still refuse to eat. Some are stubborn, it isnt a matter of who can do it better, its a matter of what the snake will take! many people try to force-feed and it turns to be successful, but its also a dangerous thing and very stressful thing to do!
not all snakes will eat pre killed prey, espeacially some picky ball pythons.

Zoe, claiming you can get them eating is pretty funny considering you keep IJ's. Carpets are a very eager to feed snake. This isnt a carpet python.. And I honestly feel Naara is doing the right thing espeacially if it narrows down to eat or not eat. The way you come off DOES seem offending, and I highly doubt Naara is lying, and thats basically what you're implying by constantly repeating yourself. I find your posts annoying Zoe because you come off with the know-it-all attitude on about EVERY SUBJECT! i dont blame her for getting annoyed.

I agree with Falcons advice, try to stun the rodent first, if live is a nessecity. Good luck!

V.hb

06-19-03, 10:52 AM

i'll add frozen rodents lose alot of their initial scent. One thing ive also done in conversions is rubbing the f/t rodent onto a live rodent to sent it. of course make sure the live rodent isnt kept on any toxic substrates like pine, ceder etc. Doing this a few times really worked. Even the scents you can purchase in pet stores do the trick for some snakes.

Zoe

06-19-03, 11:09 AM

V.hb - actually, my irians are terrible feeders. Very frustrating to work with.

I'm not saying she's lying, I stated how she come off as but I also said that it's hard to tell over the net and i could easily be wrong, and I partially agreed with her anyway. My "repeating myself" was just responding to posts and debating. You know, forum stuff.

I only write what I know about, and try to back up what i say with whatever facts I can get. Notice I don't post in the invert forum, the fish forum, amphib, many of the lizard forums, the hots forum, the monitors forum etc etc etc. I stick to the forums I know (unless its a general or obvious question), and admit it when I'm wrong, and at least see both sides. Hence all the "Yes I agree with you Mary"s and the "You make good points" etc.

The one thing that could be considered accusing Naara of lying is when I said that it didn't seem as though she'd tried stunned before. Buuut I also said it SEEMED that way, not that it WAS that way. And you must admit, saying "Thanks, I'll try that, thanks for the tip" to that suggestion sounds like it's never tried before. Whether she has or not I don't know, and as she said (and I said) she knows her ball pythons. I just think it's not right to give up feeding f/t (or at least f/k) without a fight (well, a lot of effort).

This is just something I'm passionate about. I've seen so many rodent bites leading to injury, blindness and death. I don't like seeing snakes in pain or dead, and you consider that annoying? So ignore me then, but I will continue to oppose live feeding.

Zoe

V.hb

06-19-03, 11:14 AM

You have an arrogant way of seeing both sides......... Its obvious what your side is, i dont think that even needs my acknowledgement. its the fact that her snake WONT eat. and regardless of what you say, theres a big difference between a carpet and a ball.

I can pull up your posts on the varanids, amphibs other lizard forums if you like.. Not that its a bad thing to try and help people out, thats good. But dont tell people they're wrong for doing things you dont.

And if you've seen so many rodent bites, who the heck do you deal with? all the work ive done in stores, personal level breeding level i've seen bites, however not fatal, or even considered to be injuries... Not saying this isn't something that can happen but you'l read the worst of everything on the net if you know what I mean.

Zoe

06-19-03, 11:24 AM

I know what you mean about the bites... I'm refering to pictures and namely the snakes my mother works with (vet).

Eh... I dunno, you've never worked with my carpets... lol. Seriously though, infuriating creatures. At least my boa can eat the rats I waste on them.

Okay, to me to it wasn't obvious. It seemed to me like she hadn't tried that hard and had just said to herself "they eat live in the wild, it'll be fine.". THATS what I think is wrong. Again, that may be not even close to how she sees things, I know she cares about her snakes. If she had made it very obvious that she had tried everything of course I'd have relented, as did I with Mary.

Of course it's obvious what my side is... otherwise it wouldn't be much of a debate. And yes I suppose I might come off as arrogant but rest assured it isn't my intention. I like to debate, and I like to research what's being said to know the truth. I can think of much more arrogant ways to act.

I have posted in the other forums - but mostly to questions that demand only a little research. Like the person asking about the biggest spider. Doesn't take my knowledge of spiders to find that out. And if you read what I write, unless I'm 100% sure with the research to back it up, I'll use the terms "think" and " believe" and "probably", because I know what you mean about people using theory as truth, and yes it can be irritating.

V.hb

06-19-03, 02:15 PM

Well, your response was reasonable.. so i somewhat see your point of view.. Just try not to be so hard on people, heheh thats why they get so defensive.

crazyboy

06-19-03, 04:18 PM

how sould you prperly kill the rat

crazyboy

06-19-03, 04:29 PM

well i jus tt read another hread so forget about my question

Mike177

06-21-03, 11:11 AM

feeding live should alwas be a LAST resort to not eating peroid. and still you can alwas stun the rat or mouse or feed with asstance.

Linds

06-23-03, 03:48 PM

crazyboy,

<a href="http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17326">Click here</a> for the thread below that discusses your question ;)

python_diva_06

07-02-03, 06:38 AM

what i do when i have to feed live is just dangle the mouse by the tail over my BP and he will just grab it by the head squeeze and eat, pretty simple and he doesn't get hurt...

python_diva_06

07-02-03, 07:03 AM

i forgot the part on why i feed live, sorry...
I got my BP from one of my Mom's good friends (i won't tell you the whole story of how i got him just for times sake) she told me strait up that he ate live food, when i asked he why she didn't start him on f/t she told me that she had got him from another family she knew and THEY started him on live. so ,anyway, she had just feed him the week before so i didn't neeed to worry about it til' the next sunday...sunday rolled around and mt mom when annd got him a middle sized rat and i got him out of the box and did what i said above...i think he was still a little stressed so he killed the rat, but, absolutey WOULD NOT eat it...so i was just like "what the crap?!?!?" and just left him alone for a couple of days i tryed to feed him the next Sunday with a new live rat only smaller and he took it like he hadn't ate in mounths...in between those two feedings i had kept the rat that he had killed and didn't eat and again he absolutly would not take it, i tryed putting it in a dark box for about an hour, i tryed bagging, i tryed everything i could think of in those couple of days and he just would not eat it...so needless to say i'v tryed everything i could possable think of to get him to eat that rat and he jut simpley wouldn't...so, again needless to say it's live for him for the rest of his little slithery life...

Ed_r

07-02-03, 07:32 AM

I can't believe this thread is still active.

We ALL have had tough feeding w/c Ball Pythons that "Only eat Live" I also have 4 BCIs that "Only eats Live" Also a Retic that was Only fed live and chewed. a Coastal Carpet Python, that "Only eats Live" Also had BCI babies. Nothing in my house eats Live!

Almost every snake in my house was supposedly a "Live Prey Only" feeder. Yet nothing in my house eats live rodents. Do I have some sort of magic spell that transforms them? Do I just have the right Mojo? I don't know.

Like Zoe said before send me your Ball Pythons that supposedly "wil Only eat live" and within 2 months I'll have them taking f/t. If there is a will there is a way. I'm not being errogant, it's just true.

python_diva_06

07-02-03, 07:59 AM

you don't know what other peoples snakes will eat, you have no room to talk about others peoples snakes like you know them personally...My BP is about 2 1/2 years old and he's been feed live all his life...i don't mean to be rude , but, you honostly think you can change that???

Ed_r

07-02-03, 08:01 AM

YES!!! I have gotten w/c adopted BPs that way too. That are adult, so I feel I'm pretty safe in my comments.

python_diva_06

07-02-03, 08:16 AM

im just saying not all BP's are the same...some will just refuse...im not going starve my snake for the slight to no chance that they'll get bittin

Ed_r

07-02-03, 08:22 AM

Thats your choice. None of mine have ever starved. Also I'm sure all the people that ever had a post "the rat bit my snake , what do I do?" had the same thought of it being a slim to none chance it will happen to them. I would hope they wouldn't feed live to purposely harm their snake.

python_diva_06

07-02-03, 11:07 AM

Ed_r, im very sorry if i sounded rude...i just wanted to express my opinons, just like you were expressing yours...again very sorry if i sounded rude :)

Belegnole

07-10-03, 07:10 AM

Very interesting thread.......

And a hot topic as well ..sort of like discussing politics or religion. Now I prefer to feed f/t for all of the reasons stated, but I had a dumerils boa once that was around a year when I got it and it also refused to eat f/t. I tried every thing I could think of , plus every thing others thought of. Up to and including the starve it out concept. Maybe I didn't try hard enough or mabe the snake was more stuborn than I. In the end I gave and it was bit by a mouse...and so now I felt horrible, irrisponsible and just bad all around. So I tried again, no luck this snake was stuck in its ways. That or I was just too stupid to figure out it's f/t feeding requisites. Either way I dont have that snake any more for other reasons .Just got back into herping and have a juvi ball. I know that it has been eating live before I got it in fact it ate the day before I purchased it. So now I'm back at the same point, this one doesn't like f/t either tried to feed it for the first time last night (f/t at my wifes demand and my pref.) and it didn't even seem interested. I'm not worried because I've only had the snake for a week and its not a abnormal situation for the first trial feeding anyway. But , I'm getting ready for round 2; reading over the posted articles as a refresher and being determind as this is a young snake that it WILL end up eating f/t as it is the best way to feed for many reasons.

BTW live feeding is NOT BAD just not as good , safe, humane? (come on if we were that humane we wouldn't have snakes in cages a mouse or other prey item must die for or snakes to eat period weather we or someone else kills it), or practical....

snkmn

07-21-03, 07:16 PM

i am very sorry. i will now consider weather of not to feed live prey

Selecta

07-26-03, 04:38 PM

Whoops
I guess you can't expose people without be threatened with slander

LOL Johnny Cochrane HHHHHHHHHHHHHHelp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Zoe

07-26-03, 05:26 PM

First off, I never said my mom was a reptile vet. I said she was a vet, and on occaision she does work with herps.

Second, I don't live with my mother.

Third, I was one of the first people to join this site. I couldn't have joined earlier because it didn't exist. Just because I only joined last year, it doesn't mean I haven't been keeping herps since I was 11. I never claimed to have the most experience in the world. And yeah I asked some newbie questions. We all start somewhere. Your point?

Selecta, it sounds more like you are following me around and replying to million-year old posts just to irritate me. I don't understand why, because I am never disrespctful and if I am, I do not mean to be and would gladly appoligize to anyone offended by what I've said. So honestly, what is your guff with me? If you have a personal problem, deal with it over PMs, don't try and slander me in public posts.

And lastly, I never called her a liar. I was getting a certain impression, and said so. I never said that how I thought was the way things were. in fact, I specified otherwise. Quote me where I said "You are a liar Neera."

Either get over your dislike of me, selecta, ignore it, or deal with it in PMs. Or keep responding to ancient posts in an attempt to insult me, though I am not quite sure of your intentions.