Baby Dragon dont want to eat

[MrPunk]

Hi,

I have a baby dragon who dont want to eat! I try vegetable, and cricket but he eat just 1 cricket every 1 or 2 day. The dragon have around 1 month.

Do you have some trick to help me


thanks

Sebastien

[eyespy]

First off, take him to a vet. He probably has parasites that are killing off his appetite.

There's a nice handfeeding formula that is helpful. Mix equal portions baby bird handfeeding formula and Repcal Juvenile Bearded Dragon pellets. Cover with boiling water and let stand to soften. Mix in an equal portion of baby food such as chicken or peaches. Then add a 50/50 solution of Pedialyte and water until mixture is soupy enough to drip from a feeding syringe or medicine dropper. Drip this on his snout and let him lap up as much as he wants.

[Dragon_Slave]

Also, another personal recipe of mine... take an old blender and drop in some crickets, mealworms and pedialyte and chop em all up. Make sure to put enough liquid so that it can be fed through a needleless syringe. You can find syringes at a pharmacy. Hope you're baby starts eating soon! Also, I would suggest taking him to a vet, eyespy is right... he could definitely have parasites or some other problem! Good luck and keep us updated!

EDIT: NEVER FEED MEALWORMS TO A DRAGON UNDER 12 INCHES. They should only be fed on occassion if at all to adults.

[eyespy]

No mealworms for a fasting dragon!!!! There won't be enough peristalsis (the rhythmic motion of the digestive system) to move all that chitin along and the impaction risk skyrockets. I don't like mealworms for bearded dragons at all. High chitin and very poor nutrition, especially the calcium to phosphorus ratio.

[Dragon_Slave]

EDIT: Ok Eyespy... to each their own opinion please ignore this post

[eyespy]

Chitin does not chop or blend away, it's virtually indestructable and does compress along the villi in the intestinal tract. Even when you grind it up it's still an indigestible substance. It builds up over time and can cause impaction. I've seen far too many dragon deaths caused by mealworm impactions, it's the #2 impaction risk behind particulate substrates such as sand.

[Dragon_Slave]

OK FINE! USE THE MOLTED MEALWORMS THEN! JESUS CHRIST!

If you only add 4 regular mealies to the mixture there shouldn't be any problem. Because the crickets and pedialyte outweigh the TINY bit of mealie in the stuff. Or hell! Screw the mealworms! Just use crickets, whatever makes you happy and whatever lets you sleep well at night. I care about dragons, I would NEVER suggest anything that might possibly be of any harm. Thank You.

EDIT: If using my recipe for a dragon under12 inches in total length, do NOT use mealworms in the mixture. Not even freshly shed ones.

[eyespy]

Dragon Slave, I don't say this to be rude, it's just an observation. I started surgical assisting with bearded dragons the year before you were born and VHUP, where I worked, sees 1,000 to 3,000 bearded dragons a year. I've personally necropsied over 900 dragons that have died of mealworm impaction and I can assure you that they are a potential risk.

The original question was posted by the owner of a baby dragon, whose digestive tract is about 0.8 mm wide at the duodenum (the narrowest part), it doesn't take much chitin at all to impact that.

[Dragon_Slave]

Like I said, use the molted ones then.

[eyespy]

Even molted ones have chitin, it just hasn't reached the exoskeleton yet. With a dragon that's not eating properly, mealworms aren't a good option at all. Most breeders and vets don't like mealworms for reptiles at any time, too low in protein and moisture, too high in fat and chitin and phosphorus.

[Dragon_Slave]

EDIT: Mealworms are NOT needed in my recipe due to impaction problems that COULD possibly arise.

[eyespy]

I don't even recommend crickets for a dragon that's been virtually fasting for a month, the whole point is that the digestive system would be nearly shut down by now and chitin would be too taxing. Carbohydrates and a light dosage of protein is the preferred formula to get a digestive system back on track, especially when accompanied by beneficial bacteria such as L. acidophilus.

Chitin-heavy foods are a particular risk for bearded dragons, as opposed to true insectivores such as leopard geckos. They have one of the smallest digestive systems of any reptile, with an extremely narrow opening to the small intestine. The small intestine is alkaline, not acidic so protein-based foods are only broken down in the stomach and chitin is a proteinaceous polymer. Chitin is a high risk for chronic impactions because of this. The digestive system of a bearded dragon is more geared to digesting cellulose from plants than it is to digesting proteins and chitins.

Perhaps your vet would do well to study the particular anatomy of bearded dragons if he is recommending mealworms as a food source for dragons under 12 inches long. They weren't really known in North America until 1982 so he cannot have 60 years hands-on with them and they are very different from other reptiles internally.

[Dragon_Slave]

EDIT: Another great site is DragonTank.com. A community for bearded dragons. They are devoted to helping out bearded dragons and their owners. It has loads of information and is like the equivelent of snake info on these boards. :D

[depressor86]

dragon i dont understand why youre yelling at eyespy for trying to help out?
she knows her stuff about beardies
we all hope your beardie springs back and becomes as healthy as ever but what do you expect people to say other than their personal experience?

[drewlowe]

I'm sorry i don't know a whole lot of info on beardies and their digestive system but i can tell you about experinces i have had and an experince my boyfriend had before we got together.

He had 2 beardies that both had died from mealies. They weren't his stable diet for them but he feed them every few weeks to the beardies. All of a sudden out of nowhere one of his beardies died then the next week the other one died. they were both probly close to a year old. He had an autopsy (sorry don't know the herp term) done to them. The vet had found out that it was because of the mealies causing impactation. For this reason my boyfriend will not ever let mealies go near our 2 babies. If i even suggest it as a treat he gets upset because of the 2 he lost. This was his experince. Like i said i'm not an expert but i can share the stories or experinces i know.

Dragon slave you don't need to leave the site. But you should remember different people have different views on housing, subtrate, and yes even feeding. So you should be upset at eyespy. I value eyespy's information she gives out. I have found it to be very helpful even if it doesn't pertain to me.

[Dragon_Slave]

Originally posted by drewlowe
Dragon slave you don't need to leave the site. But you should remember different people have different views on housing, subtrate, and yes even feeding. So you should be upset at eyespy. I value eyespy's information she gives out. I have found it to be very helpful even if it doesn't pertain to me. [/B]

But you see Drew, even though eyespy may seem very knowledgable, and I say she knows SOME things, but I hate how she is trying to prove me wrong in every damn post! I mean, I say one thing and she's got something in response trying to prove me wrong. I really suggest to everyone to join DragonTank.com. This is a great place to learn about snakes, but at dragontank, it's devoted just to dragons and has piles and piles of information that can answer questions that you probably didn't even know you had! It's a great site, the people there are so welcoming and nice... not to say people here arent but... I joined this forum 3 days ago and already I have people trying to act ''holier than thou'' to me. As said before, just because I'm new to this forum, does not mean I am new to dragons.

On a side note: The dragon in question, I'm not sure how big it is.. so therefore, I didn't say this, but I will now since it's OBVIOUSLY causing some confusion. Mealworms should NEVER be fed to dragons under 12 inches and are not a recommended food item for small dragons, or any size for that matter. My vet only recommends the use of molted mealies in the mix, but are not ABSOLUTELY needed.

As far as stories go: Have you ever heard that one about the dragon that ate a mealie and it chewed through it's stomach? Ha!
Yes, this CAN happen... but it's HIGHLY unlikely and isn't believed by very many people, including vets. When it does happen, it's a ''freak accident''.

[drewlowe]

You know how many differnt forums i have been on that their are constantly people trying to prove someone wrong. The way eyespy went about it was very polite. I have been yelled at and told never to come back on several sites because of things i have said. Just because i dissagreed with members on subtrate or feeding. Like an example someone completely chewed my a@# out for feeding kale, collard, mustard and turnip greens to my beardies. stating i was going to kill them because they were going to have calcium build up. and no that isn't the only thing i feed them they get such a huge variety of food. no one else stuck up for me and i left. and will never go back. Eyespy is just sharing what she knows from experince as a vet tech. i don't have time to finish this i will explain more later if needed but their is a major storm coming and i have to shut down my puter. (just incase don't want nothing bad to happen to it)

Thanks

Jamie.

[Dragon_Slave]

Jamie,
I know eyespy went about it politely but sometimes even the people who think they are experts and have had some experience can be wrong. I never said she was mean at all but I hate when people try to prove me wrong when I and lots of other herpers know we're right. Just because someone has ''experience'' doesn't mean it holds true 100% of the time.

[eyespy]

Dragon Slave, it certainly wasn't my intention to prove you wrong in every post and I regret that I made you feel that way. I'm very sorry.

Perhaps if you look at the title of the thread and reread the original post you might understand why I am so dead-set against mealworms in this case. It is clearly a hatchling or very young juvenile who has eaten roughly 15-30 crickets in the past month.

While your advice was well-intentioned, it was the equivalent of telling the parents of a toddler with stomach problems to make a cheeseburger milkshake.

This is a dragon who needs a rapid rise in blood sugar and probably electolytes to gain energy before it would ever be ready to tackle anything more challenging to digest.

I had nothing against you, but your advice in this instance could have killed that dragon. I am sorry that I didn't find a more diplomatic way to state that and hope you won't leave the forum because of me.

[Dragon_Slave]

Eeehh... make me feel horrible now. :-p I'm sorry, you were right on this one, now that I look back at the original post, it did state it was a baby dragon. I must have missed that part. But still, there is nothing wrong with my mixture for a dragon over 12 inches. I guess I overreacted a little bit, sorry. I still say you are wrong about the hemipenal prolapses due to ''too small'' cages, meaning a 50 gallon.
EDIT: I personally, along with some other herpers, do not agree with this theory about a 50 gallon being too small. There are a lot of other variables that could account for the prolapses. I can't see how a tank twice the length of a dragon could do harm to it. My male dragon is 17.2 inches long right now, at 7.5 months, and he has soo much room. Granted, I do let him run around my room a lot, he's not ALWAYS in his cage, he basically basks there to warm up, occassionally eats in there and sleeps there. Otherwise, he's basking at my windowsill or running amuck in my room, lol.

[pennvet]

Originally posted by Dragon_Slave
I still say you are wrong about the hemipenal prolapses due to ''too small'' cages, meaning a 50 gallon. My dragontank friends and I still say... ''That's the biggest load of BS we've heard in our lives.''

I'm one of eyespy's former bosses, and I normally just lurk on this forum to help her if there are difficult questions but I just had to register to reply to this one!

Over 85% of my bearded dragon patients with recurrent hemipenal prolapses have caudal equina syndrome secondary to tail base compression. Fortunately, bearded dragons have a caudal equine well below the pelvis, were it some other animal it could cause partial hind leg paralysis as well, as in green iguanas. Eyespy is currently rehabbing a green iguana with this condition under my supervision and has helped me suture many a prolapsed hemipene.

If your friends at that other forum aren't familiar with well documented reptilian diseases, perhaps they would be wise to remove their "Diagnose" forum. It is, after all, illegal to diagnose medical conditions without a valid license to practice medicine.

[Dragon_Slave]

DragonTank does NOT diagnose diseases. Our diagnose forum is there for people to post about EMERGENCY situations. And in OVER 90% of the situations, we basically just tell people... ''take the dragon to a qualified herp vet ASAP.'' Also, another example of why the diagnose forum is there is... say ''Suzie'' has a dragon with mites. Now, if ''Bob'' has already treated mites and took his dragons to the vet already... ''Bob'' can tell ''Suzie'' what his vet recommended for treatment. After all, some things can be easily cured at home without seeing a vet and paying the high bills that result from vet visits. BUT, for the things that cannot be easily cured... we just simply tell them to see a vet for a correct diagnosis.

[Dragon_Slave]

Also, I'd REALLY like to see a link to a document that PROVES these hemipenal prolapses are due to being in too small of a cage, referring to a 50 gallon tank.

[eyespy]

Dragon Slave,
I suggest you go to the library and look up the published works of the herpetologists you called a$$wipes in your abusive PM. As you know, most journal articles are never published on the internet and so URLs are not available. In addition, I recommend you post a public apology for saying a woman with 17 years experience working with bearded dragons, plus 3 B.S.'s "knows nothing" about bearded dragons.

As a reptile rescuer I am dependent upon donations in order to keep my operation running and you trying to smear my reputation because you don't agree on certain husbandry aspects could have a direct impact upon my business. Fortunately the people who know me and have seen my work will not be impacted by your statements but on the internet one cannot guarantee that viewers have that background knowledge.

Were it just the statements you made on this board I would have let the whole thing drop but the abusive PM sent to a household with young children was completely out of line.

[eyespy]

Originally posted by Dragon_Slave
DragonTank does NOT diagnose diseases. Our diagnose forum is there for people to post about EMERGENCY situations.

Just the fact that the word "Diagnose" is in the forum title means that any healthcare professional who might post there risks censure against his/her license. The forum title itself implies tht people can come there to get a diagnosis. With stronger disclaimers and more frequent "see a vet" warnings than I've seen on that forum many other forums have gotten themselves into trouble. The big mass breeder in El Salvador was forced to completely remove the entire advice section of their website in order to avoid a lawsuit, and that forum was staffed by a licensed vet.

There's nothing wrong with seeking or giving advice on the internet but it must be very carefully done!

[HeatherRose]

*pokes her head in*

Does the mealworm/impaction thing affect other omnivorous/insectivorious herps? (ex: a crested gecko)

If this has been said, sorry...I skipped the last page as it was mostly *ahem* arguing...

Thanks guys :D

[eyespy]

Heather, the impaction risk is much lower for insectivores like leos than it is for a bearded dragon. Their digestive systems are quite different. A leo's is much more acidic and more easily breaks down the proteins in the exoskeleton. They also have a wider tract with less twists and turns in it for things to get caught. There's always an impaction risk if overfed, the animal isn't warm enough, etc. but it's much lower.

I'm not actually familiar with the digestive tract of a crested gecko, you don't see them brought in for surgery very often so I don't know how high the risk is for them.

[HeatherRose]

Alright, thanks :D I don't feed mealies too often anyway, I think I'm fine ;)

[HeatherRose]

Alright, thanks :D I don't feed mealies too often anyway, I think I'm fine ;)

[Dragon_Slave]

Eyespy,
First... how was I to know that my PM was going out to a household of young children? Second.. I did NOT find it abusive. Now, I DO apologize for saying that you ''know nothing''. Because obviously you do and have had experience with dragons. I also apologize for calling the herpetologists a$$wipes. He just gave names of the people, I had no clue who the heck they were! I do admit, I don't know many names of herpetologists and I get most of my information from the net, not books. But I do NOT apologize for my PM... it was NONE of yellermelons business to notify me of a mistake I knew I had already made. Now, I spent a LOT of time going back and editing ALL my posts this morning, so there is no need to be rude now. But I wish people would learn to mind their own business. And I am sorry if I affected your business in any way. Sorry.... I am truely embarrassed, as well I'm sure I should be. I promise to clean up my act, I don't want to be seen as the wolf here... I'm truely a friendly person... :-\