Bagging venomous snakes: safe or not?

[SCReptiles]

I responded to a post a few days ago explaining a safe way to catch copperheads using only things found in a normal household. I received some feedback with many people taking the stand that one should not catch copperheads unless they have specific snake catching equipment. I suggested the use of a 5 gallon bucket and some of the feedback suggested if the young man could not bag the snake, he should leave it alone. After that I began thinking. I only use bags for venomous snakes as an absolute last resort. I prefer screw top buckets and locking top plastic boxes. I do not have research on this, and I doubt that any exists, but based on my personal experience and the accounts I have read I would submit that accidents during venom extractions are the leading cause of envenomation concerning captive snakes and accidents concerning bagged snakes would be the second leading cause. A close friend with many years of herping experience received a dry bite from a rattlesnake in AZ just last week while he was bagging it. About a year ago, I sold an adult female timber to a young man in Huntsville, AL. He had a close call while moving the snake from my container to a his bag. I would also call attention to Mark O’Shea. On one of his cobra specials, a member of his group was envemonated through the bag. Also Okefenokee Joe received his first envenomation from a cottonmouth after he mistakenly laid his hand on the bag. It is my contention that the use of bags concerning venomous snakes is by nature unsafe and should only be used if strong locking containers are unavailable. I am aware of the pro bagging system sold through Midwest, and I would agree it makes getting the snakes into the bag much safer, however, the drawbacks are: the system is big and bulky and just not practical to carry on many herping trips and this system would not protect against either of the latter two envenomations mentioned above. I look forward to feedback on this from all herpers, experienced or green. If these type accidents happen with life time snake hunters and professional herpetologists like Mark and Joe, should we as the venomous community continue to promote bagging?

[Ed_r]

With most hots, Ill say the exception is a coral snake. A bag offeres absolutely no protection. Only thing a bag does is keep the snake from wandering around free. Your taking a huge risk in bagging hots. I have had a friend get bit by his GTP through the bag. Luckilly of course it just drew blood. But if 1/4" teath easily go through a bag, what would 2" fangs do?
May be awkward but locking containers are really the only way to go. he pro baggers ARE definately a bad thing. Gives a false sense of security. While true you can get the snake in the bag no problem, but getting them out gets real hairy.

[reverendsterlin]

I don't think anyone will say that bags are safe, but they are simple and convenient. Using a proper bag, not the old pillowcase, is important snake bags are quite a bit longer than the animal so you minimize bites on releasing, tie the bag with enough material left to carry while the knot prevents the animal access to you hand. I keep locking holders at the vehicle for transport but even so I leave the animal in the bag so no problems occur between animals. I can't see myself traipsing around the cliffs and mountainsides carrying even 2 or 3 buckets, but I'll take 10 bags tucked in my belt. Like everything else with hots, bagging and transporting safely takes experience, practice, and constant awareness.

[BWSmith]

Good points. Bagging is tricky. It takes alot of patience and practice and good methods. I think that many feel a false sense of security once a snake is bagged. When bagging hots, Ideally, they should be double bagged and in a locked container. I try not to put too much faith in any one method. The containers that i generally use are Sterilite or Tupperware. To secure them, I put holes in the lid going through to the bottom of the lip. This allows me to zip-tie the top down. Very secure. Because many of my containers are the same and there is no way to get all the holes exactly the same on each one, I number each container ont he front and the lid. This allows me to not only get the correct lid, but to have it facing the correct direction as well. I drill many small vent holes on the long side of the tupperware. I do not put air holes ont he sides where I will be grasping it or where my fingers will be while I am applying zip ties.

Now bagging is not as easy as some may think. I generally use a bag stick (similar to the Pro Bagger, but older and home-made). You have to learn how to get the snake in, secure the end without touching it, release the bag, secure the snake int he bottom of the bag while you tie and/or zip-tie it. And the same basic procedures apply for double bagging. All bagging does is contain the snake, it does not "safely secure" it.

Most of the time in the field or in a controlled environment, i try to use containers rather than bags. It is quick, secure and leaves the snake visible. For transporting, I much prefer bagging the snake and placing it in a secure container.

In the world of venomous, there is no doing like overdoing!

Do I bag? yes. Do I teach bagging methods? yes. There will always be the need to bag at some point. And it is best to know the safe method. Would I recommend bagging a hot to a novice, not without proper instruction. Each trick you know makes it that much safer. Safer, not safe. There is no such thing as perfectly safe when it comes to hots, the danger is always present.

[Mustangrde1]

I think of all the temporary bags ive seen used the best yet is a old fashion divers goody bag with a zipper, it works well for holding animals for short periods of time and allows you to see the animal on extraction. and tuff enough to keep a nice lobster in if you happen to run accross one. Its a thought you might want to think about , tough and see through for safty.

[Mustangrde1]

Oooppss almost forgot , remember some states require animals be bagged or double bagged and in locked containers as soon as captured or for transport and marked as "Danger live venomous reptile' so check you local laws always.

[unBOAlievable]

Very good point Chuck,

When I said that, I was refering that if he did not have the skills to do this then maybe he should not be catching them. But we have covered that.

Bags in themselves are not safe, they are best used in conjunction with your bucket method, used in redundancy so to speak. I would not have a problem using a locked bucket for them, but I would never use the bag without the locked bucket.

When you picked up the venomous from my facility you used nothing but buckets and I must say it went very smooth. I definately liked the one snake per bucket method over the group of cottons that were in that bag.

Another good way is to use those lockout boxes, I have carried venomous in them quite a few times, then all you have to do is bolt them to the cage and open the door.

[SCReptiles]

UnBOAlievable, thanks. I wasn’t speaking to you directly. I got more feed back off the board thru email. A few people mentioned bagging the snakes. I recall that bag full of cottons, actually it was a pillow case. =) I had done trading with that guy before and he always used buckets, that day he brought the cane and the diamond in a bucket, and the cottons in a pillow case. I was uneasy about it, but I hadn’t brought anything with me to move them into. That was a learning experience. I always carry my own stuff now when I go to trade anything.

[SCReptiles]

Mustangrde1, excellent point about the law requiring bags. I know that TN and FL both require venomous snakes to be in bags. I am sure a few others have that on the books. I can see how having snakes in bags adds a bit of safety in transport. Assuming an auto accident, the snakes would be more likely to be released from buckets and boxes then they would a bag. I recall last winter I was coming back from south GA on I75 after making a trade. I had 1 EDB, 3 canes, 1 pig, and 1 copper in a blazer. The roads became very slick after about 11pm. A tractor and trl blew by me and sent the blazer into a spin. I done about 4 complete 360’s and believe me I was concerned about flipping the car. Luckily I finally came to a rest on the curb of the interstate and all was fine. I checked the buckets and then was back on my way. But I still feel over all, the risk of working them into bags outweighs the risk of an escape, but I do double box anytime I have to make a long a trip.

[fatboy]

I personally would never use a bag for a hot. Just seems too dangerous and too much of a chance for me to take.

[JoeBradley]

I think the bucket method is much safer for transportation. (that was my truck that screptiles was doing donuts on the interstate in).
Reverandsterlin, what do you do with your 10 bags that you have tucked in your belt once you have a snake in them?

[BWSmith]

Reverandsterlin, what do you do with your 10 bags that you have tucked in your belt once you have a snake in them?

Don't put them back on your belt ;)

For toting hots out of the swamp, I usually zip tie bags anyway and put the hook through the zip tie, Hobo Style :) (just not at an upward angle). Of course not everything is a hot. Nonvens go right back on my belt.

[JoeBradley]

Originally posted by BWSmith
Don't put them back on your belt ;)

For toting hots out of the swamp, I usually zip tie bags anyway and put the hook through the zip tie, Hobo Style :) (just not at an upward angle). Of course not everything is a hot. Nonvens go right back on my belt.

Do you not worry about the snakes biting each other?

By the way: Take a look at Screptiles. Does he look like the kind of guy that hikes through the woods carrying buckets??? He is a road cruiser. Any snake that wants to be caught has to come to the road. That is how he gets around having to carry the buckets through the woods. lol :D

[fatboy]

That's a great question which brings me to one. Have any of you had a snake be invenomated and die from it's own bite or even another snakes bite?

[JoeBradley]

I have talked to a guy who lost a rattlesnake when it missed a mouse and bit its own tail.
I have also seen our cottonmouth bite itself and not have any side effects.
That is a good question!!!!!

[Mustangrde1]

Similar species are immune to their venom, I.E. a moc biting a moc wont kill each other unless it hits vital orgin. Ive seen cobras bite each other and still live including two Kings that full juiced. wasnt pretty after for awhile but they both lived.

[JoeBradley]

Cool. I hate to see a snake bite itself. Always makes me nervous that it may seriously hurt itself.

[fatboy]

What about the comment on the lost rattlesnake? Shouldn't he have been immune? Or can it kill itself by hitting a major organ?