Minimum breeding size...

[Tim_Cranwill]

I just wanted to get some feedback from experienced breeders as to what you think the minimum age/weight/length of a breeding male and female King/Milk is...

[Colonel SB]

It really depends on the sub species because they all grow to different length, you'll have to be more specific. But in general 3 years is good for most kings & milks.

[Tim_Cranwill]

You're right. I'd need to be more specific. But I'm sort of looking for guidlines on any or all sub-species. The ones I'm keeping are...

Brooksi, Cal Kings, Hondos, Sins and Prairies. But really I'm just looking for opinions or experiences with Lampropeltis of any type... :)

[Vanan]

The way I judge the best size for breeding is finding out the average range and going for the median size at least.

It's kinda tough getting into each species and subspecies cos the Lampropeltis genus is so varied from the smallest being the scarlet king and the largest being the chain king. That's why I'd rather describe a blanket rule.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Males: 18 months for sure.

Females: 18 months (if you're on your game).

[Vanan]

Females: 18 months (if you're on your game).

...and if you want a breeder who will burn out in a short while (2-3 yrs) or possibly have health problems due to powerfeeding.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Weird. I've been breeding them for 10 years and this female is 8 years old and still going strong.

Does hard data not count in this day and age, or are we still living and breathing by outdated unpeer-reviewed "papers"?

http://members.shaw.ca/jefffavelle/TaF3_laying.jpg

[Vanan]

Not to knock your experience Jeff (which you probably have a lot more than me) but let me just say that it's the first time I've heard of a snake being bred early and still going strong after so long. I am humbled.

Just out of curiosity, just so I can add more hard data to my knowledge, how often was this particular hondo bred? Like every year since her 2nd year or did you give her years off?

I think it's great that you have an older snake going strong. That's what we're planning on doing too. Not get burnt out breeders after 2-3 yrs of breeding. Seen too many of those and it makes me sad. Sorry to have assumed the same with you.

While we're at it, dya have info on clutch sizes on this particular snake? Would like to see how clutch sizes vary over the years and see where they peak at. Most say the 2nd or 3rd year but I think they can keep going if well taken care of (like yours seems to be).

BTW, you expecting any anery hondos this year, you hondaholic! lol!

[Will]

I have no personal experience(yet), but most people I've asked say their 3rd year is a safe time to start for most Lampropeltis. I asked a well known American breeder that once, and he told me that for Females, he has a minimum of 250 grams regardless of age to minimize the possibilities of complications. That's for Females though, for the males, if they're willing and able(and not eaten if they're too small) they can breed after 18 months - horny little devils.

[Jeff_Favelle]

I only started keeping data this year, but she will double clutch, no probs. My buddy had a corn lay 30+ eggs every year from 18 months to 7 years. He sold them because they just bred too much. Its what they do. If people studied their recruitment rates, they'd be very very surprised. They are built to eat and breed. Its a myth that they aren't. Trust me.

No such luck for me for anerys. Man, that'd be sweet though. Damn you, now all I'm going to be thinking about is anerys!! Not fair!

Hypos maybe though. The female pictured is actually the wrong snake. Dammit. She's a possible het hypo that's 18 months old and will double clutch (hopefully).

Here's the older female. Every 2nd year is a double-clutcher:

http://members.shaw.ca/jefffavelle/TRF2_eatingg.jpg

My mistake! I hate this members.shaw crap. I can't keep track of my photos.

[Vanan]

Here's the older female. Every 2nd year is a double-clutcher:

Cool. Thought so. No wonder she's going strong. It's good that she's getting some rest in between.

As for corns, yea those guys are BREEDERS! Although you get the occasional weak line which don't do so well.

Anerys! Anerys!! lol!

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ha ha Vanan! You guys have an adult male anery right? Maybe we should breed him with an adult female albino next year?

But yeah, don't always believe what you hear or read. Just because I've done some things with some milks and getulas, doesn't mean that everyone will, or that I will repeat it. I mean, who's to say that I could buy 2.2 baby Cal. Kings, raise them to 5 footers in 18 months, breed the crap out of them, and have the female's die in 3 years? Could happen. Hasn't happened in my experience, and that hard data encompasses more than any book I could possibly read. But it still doesn't make it fact. Overfeeding might be a bad thing. It might not. I have a feeling that Vanan and I are at the extremes and the best method is somewhere in the middle for colubrids.

But who knows. At least we can discuss it and bounce ideas off each other. I'm thankful for that. Talking snakes is what makes us tick, right guys and gals?

Cheers Tim and Vanan. You guys are dedicated. For sure.

[Vanan]

Hehe thanks mate!

That's true Jeff, we're both extremists!! lol.

Oh btw, dunno where you've heard that we have an anery male hondo! Unless of course you're planning on sending us a gift for our "dedication"! lol! ;) ;)

[Jeff_Favelle]

I heard there was a few floating around in Van. and I just assumed.......


Hey, does the chat not work here anymore??

[Vanan]

Dunno haven't tried getting on it. The chat that is.

Yea, probably some around here. I know Henry had some anery babes last year.

[gonesnakee]

I held back on breeding some 2 Y.O. Corns this year because I wanted them to be "big strong girls" next year & they showed me by filling up with eggs anyway. Too bad that none of them saw sperm, DOH! I guess it was their way of telling me they were good to go this year. Oh well, next year for sure. Oh & Vanan those anery babies that you mention Henry had last year I beleive he traded for them (for BPs) in Calgary from a guy (Josh) who brought them in from the states. Unless I'm confused or mistaken that is. Could very well be, confused that is LOL Mark I.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Recruitment rates man. That's what its all about.

Hey Mark, so the anery Hondos are in Alberta now?

[Tim_Cranwill]

This is the kind of thread I wanted!!! :D Thanks all!

Jeff, I agree, talking snakes is what it's all about around here. I just get the feeling of possibly having to defend my questions or proposals sometimes. As if I "plan" to do something just because I want to learn about it. You know what I mean?

[Tim_Cranwill]

Here's why I asked in the 1st place....

All of these are 2002 stock females...

Hondo: 175g - not the best eater but pretty good...
Brooksi: 205g - eats like a CHAMP!!!
Cal King: 200g - slow to start but pretty good now...

All 3 are eating small adult mice now...

I had heard 200g as a guidline and figured that must be low because these girls are just under 12 months and already at 200+/-. But with 5 more months of eating ahead of them, I think they could hit the upper 200g mark this season.

Any thoughts guys?

[Jeff_Favelle]

I just get the feeling of possibly having to defend my questions or proposals sometimes. As if I "plan" to do something just because I want to learn about it. You know what I mean?

That sucks man, because I've read your questions (many questions I've had myself) and you shouldn't have to answer to anybody as to why you are asking them. If they don't like the question, that's their problem man.

As for weights, I've never truthfully weighed a colubrid, so I'm not familiar with standards. I know the size of an egg and I just look at the female and see if she can handle it. After a while and a few clutches, you just "know" which females to breed, and which ones to not.

And to further confuse things, 10 years ago colubrid breeding standards were measured in lengths and lengths alone. For some reason, that changed.

[Vanan]

Guilty as charged! I've been guilty of jumping down someone's throat just cos they ask a question if that could happen or not. BUt I still get around to answering their question, rather than just slam them. Seen too many idiots around, that's why. Apologies to all I've offended.

As for the breeding szie, yea Jeff's right. After a while you just gauge the size and kinda have the feel if the female's are ready or not. Whenever in doubt if she's able to breed, best to wait another year. But like Jeff mentioned earlier, some just wanna breed already and will drop eggs no matter what.

[gonesnakee]

Hey Jeff F, not sure where the Annie Hondos ended up. I'm pretty sure that Troy Mouck/Darwins Oasis (info@darwinsoasis.ca) has some young ones that he got from Big Dan here in Calgary though (could be the same ones if Dan got them from Henry?). You would have to confirm that with them though as I may be mistaken. Mark I.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Coo, thanks Mark. I guess we may have to bring some up from the States then is there's that few of them floating around.