instead of many [Archive] - sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum

Trace

06-06-03, 08:09 AM

BP13.... first of all it's spelled Chameleon, not camelion. Please, if you can't even spell the animal correctly, don't get one.

Now, what a lot of people don't know is that chameleons get quite large! Most species will reach lengths of between 6 to 8 feet! They are arboreal (meaning they live in trees) so a small rubbermaid container is not suitable. They do best living by themselves in a full grown baobab tree (Adansonia digitata). Do you have any of these in your yard?

They do eat live food! Which is really cool!!!! Now most species of chameleons come from the African continent. (Yes, I know there are a few on Antarctica, but those aren't generally found in the pet trade and are CITES listed) They are accustomed to eating the natural fauna of Africa. Fortunately I do have a supplier of f/t warthogs, hyenas and baby giraffes. Phew! Otherwise I couldn't keep as many chameleons as I do.

Breeding is very difficult! You have to retreive the a super aggresive female from high in her tree and move her to the male's tree. It's really hard by yourself. I've lost many fingers and received numerous bites from doing this. I consider myself lucky that I have not lost any arms and legs from doing this. I have tranquilizer darts and the like at my disposal should I need it, but I perfer that the animals don't get sedated. It's really hard on their metabolism.

They live almost 100 years in captivity so it's possible for them to outlive you! You will have to consider leaving them in your will to a family member. Is there someone in your life right now that would take on these animals?

These are just some of the main points that I can think of right now. I have to run, as I received ANOTHER rescued chameleon the other night and she needs an enema! Boy this is going to fun trying to give her that by myself!

Cheers!

Trace

marisa

06-06-03, 08:16 AM

Great post Trace, I just wanted to add my condolenses since your giant female got ahold of the family dog....so sorry to hear that.

Marisa

icequeen

06-06-03, 08:21 AM

Consider yourself LUCKY Trace...only losing a few fingers!!

My cham took my right arm off at the ELBOW!!!

I wish someone like you had of INFORMED me BEFORE I took on this untamed beast!!!

But, he's mine now...I made my bed, I have to lie in it!

Trace

06-06-03, 08:22 AM

Thanks again Marisa. Your support means so much to me in this trying time. It's friends like you that keep me going!

Trace

beth wallbank

06-06-03, 08:24 AM

MUUUHHHHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH!!! you nut!! Don't forget though, that chameleons love to eat corners of furniture and the gyprock right off the walls.

Tim and Julie B

06-06-03, 08:51 AM

Hey Beth are you talking about those "shelled" chameleons? I would love to see one of those blend in so you couldn't see it! :D

icequeen

06-06-03, 08:56 AM

As much as I LOVE my cham...the thing I hate is when he lets go of one of those foot long poops!

my GOD...the smell is AMAZING! I don't care if it's the middle of winter and 30 below...the windows get OPENED!!!

Trace

06-06-03, 09:09 AM

Icequeen: It's shocking how quickly chameleons can move eh? You wouldn't think those generally slow moving creatures can turn on you and give that dismembering bite! And as for the poops!!!! I hear ya! They certainly make great fertilizer, but with the amount they put out daily it's beginning to pile up around here. It does make a nice facial mask though... you should try it after a long day of wrestling with your chameleon. It's very relaxing!

I don't know how you and Beth can keep your chameleons in the house. Aren't you worried they will eat you in your sleep?

Just curious.

Trace

Zoe

06-06-03, 09:17 AM

I sure as heck don't keep mine indoors! They've broken out of any cage I've ever put them in - even one made out of metal. For something that doesn't move that much, they sure are strong!

I find mine won't eat any f/t foods... the only thing they'll take are live baby elephants. NOT a pretty sight, and those elephants are really hard to get, what with them being endangered and all. They cost me a good 500$ per week each to feed. It's crazy.

icequeen

06-06-03, 09:58 AM

Trace I don't keep my little man (that's my "pet name" for him...hehehehe) IN the house exactly.
He has his own room. Which USED to be called the garage.
It right off of my laundry room, so I can hear him AND smell him when he does his thing.
My guy isn't full grown yet, so thankfully he is still only eating small to medium sized dogs. At least THOSE are still easy to come by!
I remember when the breeder I got my cham from told me that they move about as "quick as a sloth"....well, she must of been referring to the Mach 2 sabertooth sloth or something, cause this guy is FAR from slow!!!
I learned my lesson though...I'll never make another impulse decision like that again.
From this point on, I will do my OWN research, rather than take anyone else's word on what it takes to look after ANY animal!

beth wallbank

06-06-03, 10:05 AM

hey Trace......no worries about the chams eating me.......I purchased some heavy gauge zoological mammal cages and they don't seem to be able to penetrate these bars. So far so good, and darned lucky too as I got my tubes tied because I am sick of having to replace the kids if they disappear in the night.

beth wallbank

06-06-03, 10:10 AM

oh and Tim.........the shelled chams are the best. When I am too tired to drive the kids to school in the mornings, they are the best at carrying the kids to school and they always return right afterwards. Only down fall is the neighbours are always bitching on how their trees had leaves when they left for work, ut when they return its nothing but twigs. Guess what they dont know wont hurt them

V.hb

06-06-03, 11:03 AM

I hope you all realise ballpython is 13 years old (so says his information) He's a kid, hes dreaming.. All kids do. So what? he's not gonna do this. Do you honestly feel that you guys (being adults) really need to put down a 13 year old? And dont say you're not.. all the sarcasm is just rediculous. I dont agree with a 13 year old that knows absolutly nothing about the reptiles he wants to keep, keeping them either, but iam not putting him down for dreaming.

I think this whole thread is pretty immature. I dont think I would get much self assurance by picking on a kid.

V.hb

06-06-03, 11:14 AM

By the way, iam not defending BP13's knowledge. I just think there is a much more friendly, and decent way of going about explaining these things to someone of any age, none the less a kid. I mean, picking on a kids spelling errors? sheesh... brutal

Trace

06-06-03, 11:28 AM

V.hb.... you wanna know why I did it? I counsel so many people about chameleons and their husbandry over the course of a day, it's not funny. I spend hours a day doing it! I'm sick of it!!!!!! Beyond that.... I have ssssooooo many sick and dying chameleons that are dumped on me here because people buy them without knowing how to care for them! I do this with my own time and finances.... and it's hard. Very hard some days.

Now, if BP13 had read a few caresheets on chameleons and still had questions about them, I'd be more than happy to answer them here on the forums. Chameleons are not easy animals to deal with.

If I have to resort to sarcasm to save that one little chameleon... I will. I have read every post by BP13 since he's joined and I've purposely stayed out of the threads. This one I just couldn't.

Trace

unknownclown

06-06-03, 11:33 AM

haha I thought it was pretty funny myself... but um... yeah mocking a 13 year old for his dreams, I mean we all were his age once and we probably all had/have the same dream as he is having and trying to fulfil right now. Hey at least he is asking for advice and willing to hear the pros and cons which is more than some kids.

Hey ballpython13 Personally I would start small and as your knowlege expands so can your collection of herps. To go full force into a hobby that you dont know much about could be harmful to the animals you keep and overwhelming on yourself. Remember there is more to just feeding and holding them if you want quality animals. Hang around and learn a few things from here and check out a few other places as well. Im fairly new to herps myself so I cant give you great advice about herps as the others here can unfortunately.

EDIT:
Oh and one more thing BP13 live food is ok if you are feeding chams but snakes its a bit dangerous and if you want to tun around and sell what you are keeping like I have seen you suggest in other threads you would be SO much better off feeding F/K or F/T otherwise you could end up with snakes with scarring making them less valuable and harder to sell, also people do look for animals who are not eating live so they themselves dont have to deal with the switch, plus an animal eating F/T is less likely to have inard critters.

V.hb

06-06-03, 11:38 AM

Trace, you're a moderator and also an adult.. Dealing with the public is annoying but if you're breeding reptiles thats all part of it. Not many people are nearly as educated as others on many aspects of herping. BP13 is a kid, and wants to know more and he came here for answers.. I just dont see the point of mocking a kid over all of this, why not share your knowledge.. if you're that tired of dealing with people, why respond at all?

icequeen

06-06-03, 11:55 AM

oh come on!

I believe every one of us wishes BP13 the best of luck with his dreams, his life, his animals....everything.
This entire thread of posts was exaggerated to the extreme.
BP13 is going to know by reading Traces very first post that none of it was factual.
BUT...it did serve a purpose. IF...just IF BP13, or anyone else came in here reading this, believing this....the overall shock, and disbelief, of it all is going to make them go and do research about the animal. If they don't believe what is written here, they will likely STILL go and research the animal, if for no other reason but to prove every one of us "immature adults" wrong.
It was all in fun...and it was funny too. I bet even BP13 will chuckle at some of the posts.
And the only negative thing that was said ABOUT BP13 was the comment about spelling chameleon incorrectly.
There was no personal attack on him. So, say what you will, none of us were picking on HIM as a person, or his desire to own a chameleon, or any other reptile for that matter.
We were over dramatizing the POTENTIAL for disaster IF a person goes into pet ownership (any pet!) uneducated.

That's all it was.

V.hb

06-06-03, 12:06 PM

Why bother......... you're right, iam wrong. Go find another 13 year old asking a question, and make an idiot out of them too!

V.hb

06-06-03, 12:07 PM

refer to unknownclowns post for a real response to BP13's question.....

Lisa

06-06-03, 12:11 PM

I dunno, i think purposly providing misinformation as fact isn't the right way to go about things.

icequeen

06-06-03, 12:12 PM

I would hazard a guess that on this particular day, at that particular time, Trace's reply would of been the same whether the person asking the question was 13, or 31.
Pardon me Trace for speaking for you...and correct me if I'm wrong, but BP13's AGE had nothing to do with this.

Now, speaking only for myself:
To BP13, if any of my posts personally offended you, then I apologize. I intended no harm, and didn't mean to upset you, if I did.

Kim

V.hb

06-06-03, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by V.hb
I just think there is a much more friendly, and decent way of going about explaining these things to someone of ANY age, none the less a kid.

unknownclown

06-06-03, 12:28 PM

I guess your right Icequeen as you said this thread did serve a purpose, it was very educational I have learned its ok to poke fun at new young people here as long as there is humor involved and nothing negative is said directly at the person being mocked. COOL I can use advice like that keep the fountain of knowlege flowing! How else can I shoot down a kid in search of advice? C'mon there must be more! Do tell.

icequeen

06-06-03, 12:30 PM

You are entitled to you opinion.

I'm not trying to convince you otherwise.

I'm simply saying that I know thatI wasn't trying to intentionally hurt or offend anyone. Especially BP13...which is why I apologized to BP13.

We can't all take the moral high ground all the time...and I guess today a few of us slipped up.

BallPython13

06-06-03, 12:36 PM

thanks to all of you who helped me(not to the ones who griped)im a kid but this is not a dream,now if you saw an adult saying this you would be helping him like crazy.We are fixiing this place up tommorow and i asked for some help now can someoen please do that?Now i said that i am THINKING about a chemilon i never said im getting one,i am 13 but that means NOTHING i can be just a heelpful as some of you.Will someone help me with what reptile to choose?

gonesnakee

06-06-03, 12:39 PM

Not a very good post KIDS. Entertaining but not very informative for the kid that started it. Trace, you are a moderator, act as such, having fun is fine, but you should act professional in your position. Posting for fun is fine, but a certain level is expected of you & it was not shown here. I too get sick of answering stupid basic questions that if someone bothered to look at all they would find all the answers themselves. If I choose to answer though I try to do so in a political correct manner or I don't bother & leave it up to someone that will. There is no shortage of sarcasm in the world, especially in these forums, I do it myself. When someone, especially a child shares his/her dreams & is treated in this fashion, I think they will go away disappointed & will possibly lose interest. I myself try to promote the hobby, not scare people away. Trying to educate them isn't easy, especially when they overlook the obvious, but they are kids. If you don;t want to deal with them properly, don't deal with them at all. I hope that all you folks aren't offended & continue to have fun posting, but I don't agree with the moderators posting as such on a post that was meant to get serious replies, no matter how ridiculess the questions may seem. Sorry TRACE Address the post properly & then have fun with it after you made an honest effort. If not leave it for someone else to do properly. Mark I.
P.S. I hope you don't take this personally TRACE (or anyone) as I can totally relate to your side also, but I thought this needed to be presented. I have caught myself doing the exact same thing, people drive me crazy too, so call me hypocrit if you like, LOL Mark

icequeen

06-06-03, 12:40 PM

waaaaaaait a minute here....how did this become about ME???? I didn't start any of this. Yes, I took part in it...but I wasn't in it ALONE. I guess when the going gets tough, people tend to get going...but just because I'm the only one "here" right now, doesn't make me solely responsible for it.

It was a JOKE. No one presented ANY of this as fact.
And not a single one you playing devils advocate can honestly say you haven't told the "priest, the rabbi, and the lawyer" jokes...or how about the "blonde" jokes, hmmmm?
geeeee...is that not poking fun at people because of WHO or WHAT they are?
Yeah....that's what I thought.

I am speaking only for MYSELF....why is it YOU are speaking for BP13??? Most 13 year olds I know are QUITE capable of expressing THEMSELVES. Why don't you let BP13 do just that.
If they are upset by the events of the day...I'm sure he will let us know.

Spare me the moral indignation....k? thanks.

Jayson

06-06-03, 12:40 PM

you think that you may have saved an animals life trace but in fact you may have jeprodized the live of any other animal bp13 may aquire in the future simply because he may be to afraid to ask a question.
These forums are here for educated people to help and educate other people, not tease and put people down.

V.hb

06-06-03, 12:42 PM

Jayson you couldn't have said that any better! Hopefully others will understand what you are saying.

garterguy

06-06-03, 12:43 PM

Corn Snake Care Sheet

General

Cornsnakes are very interesting and loving snakes. They will never bite you (unless provoked or are afraid), and are very easy to take care of. If you are a cornsnake owner, or are aspiring to be one, I wish you the best of luck and congratulate you for picking the best pet snake out there! Also, please do not rely solely on this page! Research your pet, and even ask your local breeders any questions you might have!

Stats

Adult corns will grow to be 3 to 5 feet long. The longest ever recorded is 6 feet, so don't be surprised if your snake gets kind of big. It takes them about two years or so to get this length, but many take longer if they are exposed to the lower temperatures, such as 70 degrees.

Cornsnakes will live anywhere from 15 to 20 years, if they are cared for in the proper way, which is not that hard to do.

Their natural range is Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Tennesee, Alabama, and the rest of the southeastern US.

Corns are constrictors, and do not have venom.

They are nice 'handling pets', which basically means you can hold them without them feeling intimidated.

Housing

Cornsnakes will do well in almost any container, provided it is big enough. Baby cornsnakes will do well in a 5 or 10 gallon tank. Breeders, who house hundreds of snakes at a time, use boxes. If you use a box, don't use a lamp or heat pad because it may catch fire. Juveniles are happy in 10-15 gallon tanks or sweater boxes. Adults can be housed in 20-25 gallon tanks, or sweaterboxes. And, as always MAKE SURE IT IS ESCAPE-PROOF!!!
Click Here to see a drawing of my cage setup!
There are five basic things a cornsnake needs in his house:
-A secure lid
-A hide box
-A clean water dish
-Bedding
-Stable temperature

Secure Lid
Corn snakes are very good at escaping from their cages. If there is a way to get out, they will. This is easily solved by making sure your cage lid is hooked down, or your box lid is taped shut.

Hide Box
Cornsnakes like to hide and almost anything will please them. I have two types of hiding places for my snake. They are shredded paper on one end, and on the other a hide box. My hide box is just the cut off bottom of a yogurt container, with a little opening in the front. My corn seems to like both areas, but others may prefer one or the other. I've noticed they like hiding places with low celings.

Water Dish
Cornsnakes need water in their tank all the time. If it gets dry or soiled, it needs to be cleaned immediately. Water dishes come in handy during shedding, because the snake will submerge itself right before. Therefore, the dish should be big enough so the snake can submerge its whole body.

Bedding
Bedding for a cornsnake can be newspaper, aspen shavings, astro-turf, carpet, or papertowels. Gravel and sand are not good for bedding because they take moisture out of your snake's skin. Cedar shavings SHOULD NOT be used because they cause respiratory problems. Also, bedding from the forest or yard should not be used because it may cause respiratory or mite problems. If you buy bedding from a store, make sure it doesn't give off any dust. This too will cause breathing problems.

Temperature
There is a lot of controversy over whether or not your snake needs a temperature gradient. I've heard some experienced breeders say you don't need a temperature gradient, but the temperature should be constant. Fluxuating temperatures cause a high amount of stress for your snake. For babies, the temperature should be 80-85. Older snakes will do ok in 73-80 degrees. If you would like to provide a gradient, go ahead! The temps should be no more then 77-85 in the warm end and no less than 70-77 in the cool end. Snakes like to choose their own temperature. But, if you do, make sure to provide a hide box in both ends because shy snakes will stick with their hide box even if it is too hot.

Feeding

A healthy cornsnake diet consists of only mice. They get all the nutrition they need in a mouse. Live mice can do major damage to an unhungry snake, and pre-killed mice cost much less than live.

BallPython13

06-06-03, 12:45 PM

yes i am offended by the immature people who posted(im not name calling)but can some one PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE help me with what reptile to choose?This is tommorow and i need to do all of my research on the reptile.can we please stick to my topic?

icequeen

06-06-03, 12:50 PM

you're getting you new reptile tomorrow?

V.hb

06-06-03, 12:51 PM

BP13, If you want a good lizard. Go with a bearded dragon. I recommend you start with ONE and learn as much as possible before attempting to breed them. They are relativly friendly, tolerate regular handling and will eat a mixture of veggies and "live" foods such as crickets and mealworms. Check out this website and do all of your reading:
http://www.anapsid.org/bearded.html

Or, the suggestion of a corn snake above is also a good choice for you as well. I don't recommend live feed for any snakes as BW stated it can be very dangerous as rodents can leave very severe injuries on any snake.
Good luck with your decision!

V.hb

06-06-03, 12:53 PM

BP13, i also recommend setting up your tank with everything you need before purchasing your bearded. No reptile comes cheap if you set them up properly. You will need:
1. Hot heat lamp
2. One decent sized tank depending on the size of the beardie (but be prepared to upgrade the tank size as he/she grows)
3.1 uva/uvb flourescent bulb
4. Calcium supplements
5. Lots of rocks, climbing material

Don't rush into buying anything, read as much as possible first

BallPython13

06-06-03, 12:54 PM

im not getting my reptile tommorow but i want to get the stuff it needs...

C.Marshell

06-06-03, 12:56 PM

How can anyone give ya proper info if they dont even know what you are working with?,.......impossible!!

gonesnakee

06-06-03, 12:57 PM

Hi BP13, tomorrow? You really need to do more than 1 days research before you make a commitment to an animal. Sit back relax, research & think. Take your time & make a proper choice. Reptiles are not to be rushed into. Have all your questions thought about & answered before considering obtaining any animal. I hope you can find all the info. you are looking for & research it properly before making an educated choice that will both work for you & the animal(s). Good Luck & be resonsible. Mark I.

Matt_K

06-06-03, 12:57 PM

Ballpython13: Im sorry this thread turned the way it did, its good to see you're here asking questions. But can i please suggest that you do take your time and not jump into a descion so quickly. I know you said you're going to get your new herp tomorrow, but the problem lies in that you dont even know what you're going to get yet. I dont see how you could possibly have your enclosure set up perfectly and have ALL the information you will require to care for your new herp by the morning. Please, i ask of you to take your time, read up as much as you can on the herp you decide to aquire. Take you're time, learn everything you can, get your enclosure set up perfectly and not only will your herp be happy, but so will you!!!

Tim and Julie B

06-06-03, 12:58 PM

garterguy beat me to it! I was going to say corn snake as well! Just because of the whole king snakes eating each other thing. Another good one that is a close relitive would be a species of rat snake. N.American Elaphe in general are quite hardy and forgiving of first timers mistakes. BP13 you should consider these first. Then think about getting more exotic species. If you want a lizard go for something inexpensive like some kind of agamid or swift. Leopard geckos are great but you should wait until your reptile building is running smoothly since they need constant heat. Hope this helps!

BallPython13

06-06-03, 12:59 PM

im not getting him tommorow i just want to do all of the research and get what it needs and ill be getting the herp in a week or two after pleenty of research...

BallPython13

06-06-03, 01:01 PM

i dont realy like corn snakes(no affence)there just so natural looking to me(not to mention expinsive over here).I realy like chamelions,so could some one give me TRUE information on them?

Tim and Julie B

06-06-03, 01:08 PM

Have you seen the variety of colors in corns? There are so many different colors to choose from. I guarintee you will find a morph that you will like! How much more can a corn be compared to a cham? I have no experiance with chams so I will let someone else give you advice on them. But I do know they are not a good species for beginners!

Matt_K

06-06-03, 01:09 PM

here are a couple care sheets and info pages i came across..

http://www.chameleonpages.com/

http://www.icomm.ca/~dragon/cham.htm

http://home.att.net/~chameleons/index.html

Hope these help, i do reccomend that you READ as much as you possibly can.. Not to sound rude, but if you think you have read it all and have it all down, read it again.. :D Good Luck!!

Matt

BallPython13

06-06-03, 01:10 PM

well see at my petshop the only corns they have are white and yellow and are 49.99 and chamelions are only 29.99 see the difference?I like them both but the lix\zard is so more nice looking in MY opinion.can someone give me info on how to breed and take care of them?

BallPython13

06-06-03, 01:11 PM

thanks

garterguy

06-06-03, 01:14 PM

Keeping Chameleons in Captivity

by Lynda Horgan

HOUSING:
An aquarium with a screen lid is appropriate. A vita-lite (full spectrum light) should be placed over the screen (no glass between the light and the lizard). Adding an incandescent light at one end provides a basking spot where the lizard may warm up. This creates a warm end and a cool end to the cage so that the lizard may move about to adjust its body temperature. A basking (incandescent) light is not needed by all types of chameleons. Humidity and temperatures vary with the species kept.
Branches of asoze that their feet can grip easily should be added. Real or artificial plants should be provided to give the chameleon a place to hide. If you use real ones make sure that you wash them first to remove insecticide or fertilizer residue. Also make sure that they are not poisonous.
A substrate is not necessary. Some substrates can cause hemipene plugs and infections and can be ingested along with the food which can result in intestinal impactions. Mactac attached UNDER the cage will prevent the chameleon from constantly trying to get through the bottom glass.

FOOD AND WATER:
Crickets, wax worms, and silk worms dusted with calcium and vitamin D and a vitamin/mineral powder will provide the main diet. The food should be of a size that the lizard can easily digest. A chameleon will likely consume 10 to 12 crickets 3 times a week. Feed babies daily. Some chameleons will become omnivore upon maturity and are then provided with vegetables, fruit, plant leaves, etc.
Water should be provided by a drip system or by misting the plants and sides of the cage. This should be done every day. Do it more than once a day for babies. A water dish may be placed in the cage if extra humidity is needed.

HEALTH:
When selecting a chameleon look to see that the eyes are not sunken in but rather protruding. Choose a chameleon that has no deep longitudinal ridges in its tail. Even a sick chameleon can have plump body. The soft pads on its head should not be sunken in either. Look for alertness and good color. Check for swellings, deformities of the arms or lower jaw, and for any apparent external damage.
A fecal sample can be checked by a veterinarian for parasites.

ODD PIECES OF INTERESTING INFORMATION:
Never forcibly remove a chameleon from a branch. Let it "walk" off on it own. If you force it you could cause damage to its joints, toenails or even break bones.
Feed your insects well. What goes into them will go into your chameleon.
Always quarantine a new chameleon for at least 6 weeks. Some can carry viruses, parasites or bacteria that can be passed on to other chameleons.
Most chameleons should be house individually.
Some chameleons have a drop reflex when handled so be careful that they don't just suddenly let go and drop to the ground. Some run blindly to escape.
Some chameleons "waddle-walk" in an attempt to not be noticed. (Back and forth rocking motion with eventual ,movement forward.)

BODY LANGUAGE AND COLOR:
Gaping, hissing, bright colors with a vertically flattened body held at an angle to the opponent, a high stance, tail curled when done by a male indicates aggression.
Pale colors and gaping with a thinned body indicates overheating.
A dark coloration with an expanded body that is slanted to catch the rays of the sun indicate desire to warm up.
Pale coloration, tail curled, body resting on the branch indicates desire to sleep.
Bright colors and a bobbing head when done by the male indicates desire to mate.
Females darken their color, hiss and gape and rock back and forth when repelling the male.
A females color will indicate her willingness to mate, and a different color and pattern will show that she is gravid.

The above information on keeping chameleons in captivity has come mostly from my own experience. Others may have their own way of keeping them, but this has worked for me. I have bred several kinds of chameleons and kept some kinds for extended periods of time.
I hope this will provide enough information that people will be able to successfully keep their chameleons in captivity as well.
Good Luck! Happy herping! Lynda Horgan

icequeen

06-06-03, 01:17 PM

I can give you TRUE information on MY chameleon.

He's a 2 year old veiled chameleon. I have had him since the beginning of February THIS year.

In the time that I have had him, he has had TWO back to back respiratory infections, and has not eaten on his own since March, 2003. I have been force feeding or syringe feeding him since then. Same with his water.

When I got him, he had been abandoned by his previous owner...so he was an 'impulsive" decision on my part.

His previous owner kept him in a glass tank, with peat moss substrate...no thermometre or humidity gauge....anyway...what I CAN tell you, without a doubt...is you need to be prepared for the UNEXPECTED with chameleons. The hunger strikes, the URI's, etc, etc.
I have spent well over $1000 since February, correcting the previous owners mistakes, and changing everything about his enclosure and surroundings.

It's not for sure that you would run into this type of thing...but it IS something you need to be prepared for!!

Chameleons require a high SCREEN cage...at least three sides. Live plants, that are pesticide free. temperature and humidity gauges, a varied diet of live insects. UVA and UVB lighting. Temperature guages are NOT optional and they require gradients of....85-95 in the basking area. With temps dropping to about 65 degrees at night, vit. and mineral supplements....the list goes on and on.
You must maintain proper humidity levels as well.

The other key factor is, typically chameleons don't like to be handled. They are NOT social animals, and must be kept ONE per cage.
If you get a very young cham, they can be fragile....so get one that is well established.

I LOVE my cham dearly...but I had NO idea what I was getting myself into when I brought him home.
The initial cost of a cham that you have to buy (I got mine and his "tank" for free) is a verrrry small fraction of what you will spend to keep him healthy.

BallPython13

06-06-03, 01:23 PM

does anyone have pics and more info on chamelions?

icequeen

06-06-03, 01:28 PM

An aquarium with a screen lid is appropriate<------ INCORRECT info. Aquariums are only suitable for the leaf chams. Other species with tend to get URI's if kept in aquariums.

A chameleon will likely consume 10 to 12 crickets 3 times a week.<----- When my guy was eating crickets, he was eating 12 to 15 larges crix per DAY, 6 days a week!

Water should be provided by a drip system or by misting the plants and sides of the cage. This should be done every day<------this should be done TWO or THREE times per day, for 10 to 15 minutes per day, with hot water.

This website has EXCELLENT information: http://groups.msn.com/ChameleonParadise

katev17

06-06-03, 01:30 PM

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1178fullcagedooropen.jpg

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1178newguy.jpg

Here's a picture of my guy (I called him Gizmo, since my mum was so adament (sp?) on getting him a name... when I told her the name I chose she said "Too late, I've already named him Rocky.") courtesy of Trace! :D I'll be getting more pictures soon for you, Trace.

He eats like a pig, which rules, cuz he never lets me down when showing people how they eat ...

Good luck with your choice Ballpython, and make sure you do read that care sheet that was posted and the links that Matt gave! After reading those, you might want to ask a few more specified questions, it might make it easier for people to answer!! Also, check out the chameleon forum. There's TONS of questions & answers there, and you might get more responses after asking your questions there.

Kate

garterguy

06-06-03, 01:36 PM

i was reading up on them and veiled chamelions can come in many colors including purple and most have multicolored spots or stripes and the adults are 6 inches to 18 inches

icequeen

06-06-03, 01:37 PM

If you only read PART of the above sites info...pick these parts....

5 most commonly asked questions:
http://groups.msn.com/ChameleonParadise/5mostcommonaskedquestions.msnw

Do's and Don'ts: http://groups.msn.com/ChameleonParadise/dodontlist.msnw

Supply list:
http://groups.msn.com/ChameleonParadise/chameleoncagesetupsupplylist.msnw

BallPython13

06-06-03, 01:38 PM

does anyone know how to breed them?

BallPython13

06-06-03, 01:40 PM

also would they be ok in a very large rubber maid(55-60 gallons)???

Matt_K

06-06-03, 01:44 PM

no, i wouldnt reccomend using a rubbermaid for them. Building your own enclosure is REALLY easy. You can see the one that Kate has built above. Personally i made mine out of 2x2s and Screen.. 3 sides screened.. Its really simple :/ Good Luck..

Mardy

06-06-03, 01:47 PM

I sorry but if the $20.00 in price is that big you can not afford to keep any reptiles. You seem to have money for finishing a shed,heater,a/c,ect.
I'm glad you have found reptiles and you like them, but you have not even read about them at all. In everybody's special way we are saying
your only 13 time is on your side. Do lots of reading find what really interest you and come back so we can give you some help with your questions. Building a wagon before you have invented the wheel, you don't go far.

Mardy

Trace

06-06-03, 01:49 PM

I've watched this thread progress all afternoon and first off I will offer my apologies to you BP13 if I've offended you in any way. My original post was to get you to think.

Click here (http://www.adcham.com/html/taxonomy/species/chcalyptratus.html) for the best caresheet on Veiled Chameleons. It covers basic care, husbandry, caging breeding etc. It should answer all your questions. If you have further questions after you've read ALL these caresheets that people have provided, I will be more than happy to answer your questions with maturity and patience. I will also direct you to the chameleon forum on this site. Please read any past posts there, I, and as well as many other people, have answered a lot of the questions there. There is a wealth of good information in that forum on basic chameleon care.

Cheers!

Trace

icequeen

06-06-03, 01:50 PM

okay...well...I don't know...but I'm getting the impression that there is NO way you've read any of these pages that have been suggested, if you're already on to the idea of breeding them.
It's time consuming and (can be) difficult to keep ONE cham...let alone 30 or so. It doesn't take long for them to NEED t be in thier own enclosure....they'll either kill each other, or die of stress if you don't separate them.
No one has mentioned that point yet either....Chameleons EASILY succumb to illness due to stress.
They become stressed out just seeing thier own reflection, or having other chams within sight...or even other SPECIES around. Or if there is too much foot traffic near there home....along with all of the general requirements that must be met.

Honestly....if you are looking for a relatively easy lizard to keep...go with a beardie...If I'm not mistaken someone has suggested that already.

I personally am not aware of any lizard that can live comfortably in a rubbermaid container.....if anyone knows otherwise....feel free to correct me.

BallPython13

06-06-03, 01:50 PM

i never said 20.00 is alot of money......

BallPython13

06-06-03, 01:51 PM

im reading them just give me time...

icequeen

06-06-03, 01:58 PM

you can NOT keep a cham in a rubber maid container. Veiled Chams need height to climb...they need to have the impression they are above you, in order to feel secure.
My chams cage is 5 FEET high! filled with real plants so he can lurk around and "think" that no one can see him.
If you are having difficulty with the 20 dollar difference between a corn snake and a cham....I honestly dont' understand how you will deal with the initial cash out lay to set a cham up properly.
Cost of the animal should be the LAST thing that you base your decision on.

BallPython13

06-06-03, 02:00 PM

i said that cash is not a problem.You say they cany be kept in rubber maids,but on one of the care sheets they say that they work well with them....

Trace

06-06-03, 02:00 PM

Then that caresheet is wrong! Which one are you referring to.... I'd like to see it.

Trace

katev17

06-06-03, 02:02 PM

Which care sheet? I'm frightened for every chameleon's life who's owner has read a care sheet saying rubbermaids work well ... Are you sure they didn't mean work well for something like... incubating eggs?

Otherwise, DON'T listen to that care sheet! Yikers!!

Kate

icequeen

06-06-03, 02:07 PM

rubbermaid containers are used for INCUBATING eggs....big plastic garbage cans may be used as well....but NOT for HATCHED chams to LIVE in!

Crickets and roaches can live quite happily in rubbermaid containers though.

BallPython13

06-06-03, 02:07 PM

ok everyone!!!!Listen to this and please answer to this i like both of these reptiles but i want to choose only one to go with
ball pythons
or
chameilions
which should i choose if i like something easy to care for easy to breed,and ccan be kept in rubber maids?Its up to you all now,im going with your dissision since you all are wiser...

Matt_K

06-06-03, 02:09 PM

Ball Pythons!!!

icequeen

06-06-03, 02:15 PM

holy smokes!! There are FIVE pages of discussion here telling you that chams are not the easiest animals to raise.

If the deciding factor is whether or not they can be kept in plastic containers, there is NO discussion....it HAS to be the snake!
A cham would die....quickly.

Zoe

06-06-03, 02:20 PM

Just a second here... I can understand how this thread wouldn't exactly ben aproved of, but I think you're blowing this wwaayy out of proportion. It's not as though BP13 came on and said "I'm thinking of getting a camilion, please tell me your experiences with them" in which case improper spelling could be understood. No. Every day BP13 has been coming up with some new scheme to open a reptile store, get a savannah, I've even seen him advising a new herper to get a RETICULATED PYTHON to keep in a 78" x 3' x 2' enclosure (aprx). If he thinks he's old enough to open a reptile store TOMORROW, but doesn't have any idea what kind of animal he wants or how to spell their names (not to mention the simple and frightfully obvious fact that chameleons CANT BE KEPT IN RUBBERMAIDS), then he's got to be prepared to take a little ribbing. Nothing in this post was directly insulting, the information given was obviously false and greatly exagerated. If he wants real information on a new species he's going to buy tomorrow, breed in a few months, a make a million dollars off of in his new reptile store, there's a thing called CARESHEETS. In 30 seconds I could find countless corn snake, ball python or chameleon caresheets. I could also spend 2 seconds on this forum and learn how to properly spell "chameleon".

Once again, while this misinformation and sarcasm was a little uncalled for, I don't think it's a huge crime against humanity.

Heck, he's been told god knows how many times that chameleons cant be kept in rubbermaids, and he's STILL asking about it!

BP13 - why don't you browse the forums for a while longer, when you see something you like research it and ask any questions you have, then get ONE or TWO, and move from there.

Pixie

06-06-03, 02:21 PM

BP13, many have made suggestions on what animals would be best to start with but you seem intent on picking the wrong species to start with! I'm glad you're still asking questions and taking some advice. Hopefully you'll get started on the right track.

You seem dead set on keeping the animals you will get in rubbermaids which is fine, but that pretty much rules out all lizards and leaves you with snakes. Almost all lizards require special UVB lighting and a basking spot which is almost impossible to manage in a rubbermaid. The only species you can do lizards in a rubbermaid is leopard geckos.

As for snakes, cornsnakes and BPs are a good to start with and easy to keep. Don't rule out cornsnakes altogether as they are a very popular pet snake and come in a lot of different colours. They are also very easy to breed and would be a great first breeding project in the future.

Others have mentionned rat snakes, there are rosy boas, hognoses and many more good species to start with.

Read up some care sheets on some of these species and choose for yourself which you would like to start with.

Pixie

JeffT

06-06-03, 03:12 PM

FOR GODS SAKE...ITS CHAMELEON NOT CHAMELION

NEXT OFF, they are NOT easy to care for,you need a LOT of experience and it seems you have no clue what you are doing. In the last 2 days I have seen you going from animal to animal wondering if you should get it and then you just MOVE ONTO THE NEXT. First Savannahs (which you were wondering if they were poisonous , then a burm, now "chameleons"... Not all animals can live in rubbermaids either, most need a lot of ventalation and air.
Chameleons need a lot of space so no rubbermaid containers, more like a 3ft wide 7ft tall and 3 ft deep.

geez...wonder whats next

Tim and Julie B

06-06-03, 03:34 PM

I am getting a head ache. I really, really want to help but it just seems like you are dead set on chams. If you truly love them that much then I am sure you don't mind spending a couple hundred dollers on an enclosure. Don't get me wrong it is great you love them so much but maybe set them as a goal. You asked for advice on what everyone thought would be good. Everyone says if you are set on the rubbermaid housing not to go with a cham. Pick a snake! They are way easier to take care of and you will have better success in the long run if you decide to breed them. I still think corns are the way to go but if you do not like any of the two hundred or so phases then maybe consider ball pythons. I really like the rosy boa suggestion also. Please take the advice of your piers! I would have loved this many people to talk to when a I started out! Take care and hopefully you will make the best decision for you as well as the reptile (whatever it maybe). :D Tim

Aaron_S

06-06-03, 03:43 PM

if you want something to breed for you and obviously you haven't taken my advice on pet rocks,or sand even the cool cardboard forest. You could go with an ant farm,just don't shake them up they hate it.

Seriously if you want something to live in rubbermaids and are easy to breed and are good for handling why don't you go with house snakes.

yankeefoxtrot

06-06-03, 03:47 PM

Im just posting cus i wanna be part of the HUGEST thread i have ever seen just to say i was there.......HEH

Lucas out!

icequeen

06-06-03, 04:00 PM

Better be careful there Aaron_S and JeffT, if you're not you'll be accused of dashing a young mans dreams, and making him feel intimidated to ask ANY questions here at all....at least that appears to be the feeling of some.

Personally, to me, it appears that this young man will keep asking the same questions over and over again, until he hears what he WANTS to hear.

I'm still sticking with my suggestion....crickets and/or roaches.

These were the original desired requirements:

likes to be handled *hissers don't seem to mind TOO much*
GROWS BIG BUT NOT TO BIG *hissers, for sure*
very easy to breed *yup...and yup*
easy to care for *doesn't get much LESS demanding than insects*
nice looking *beauty is in the eye of the beholder*
commom *as common as the day is long...crix at least*
inexpensive *1000 for what? $25.00?*
also iw ould like something that would eat live food
any sugestions? *My crickets LOVE to eat mealies and wax worms!* They will be kept in rubber maids and i plan toraise many of them *yup again....crix all the way!*

ANNNNNND the added bonus is...you could sell the "extra" to other herp lovers for feeders!

....pretty much covers crickets and roaches...wouldn't you agree?

BallPython13

06-06-03, 04:09 PM

forget it!IF you all dont have enough sence to know that i already said im getting a ball python go somewhere else!If you dont like this topic dont be dumb enough to respond!!!GET OVER IT ARRON IM NOT GETTING A ROCK OR FOREST OR WHAT EVERR IT IS NOW!!!Ive found another forum where they accualy help me and not gripe because im young and have some questions....Forget all of you!!!!!!

BallPython13

06-06-03, 04:09 PM

who would want to keep crickets or roaches as pets???

BallPython13

06-06-03, 04:11 PM

heh your self lucas!None of you have helped me all u do us gripe because im young.And you wonder why this board is going down hill!!!!!!!!

Trace

06-06-03, 04:14 PM

I beg to differ BP13.... many, many people (myself included) offered you some great tips on chameleons, snakes, beardies et al on this thread alone! Prove this wrong, PLEASE!

Trace

icequeen

06-06-03, 04:14 PM

Well, I have to agree with you about the crickets....but I know LOTS of people that keep hissers as pets.

Sort of like how some people keep giant millipedes as pets, or tarantulas, etc....there is a person who supplies feeder insects, that is interested in raising beetles...not as feeders...but just because he LIKES beetles.

There is also a girl that posts on another forum, and I believe it's Luna moths she raises....again, because she LIKES them....never to feed to her herps.

Honestly...I wish I could find someone who DOES raise hissers near me. Apparently they are now banned here, and I'd love to try and feed them to my cham....maybe some NEW food choices would encourage him to eat on his own again.

JeffT

06-06-03, 04:15 PM

Were only trying to get a point across to you that you are going about things the wtong way. Really...if you insist on going out and buying CHAMELEONS and stuffing them in rubbermaids along with everysingle other animal then go for it. You will have about 2 weeks of joy.

BallPython13

06-06-03, 04:16 PM

IVE DONE SAID IM GOING WITH BALL PYTHONS!GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THINK HEAD!

Pixie

06-06-03, 04:18 PM

I'm happy that you found another forum that is willing to explain EVERYTHING for you! I can't wait to see how long that will last!!! LOL

We were more than willing to help you but:
1) You don't seem to want to take the advice from members that have MANY years of experience and still want to do what pleases you instead of what's best for the animals.
2) Say money is not an option but then you don't want a cornsnake because it's 20$ more than a chameleon.
3) You ask for our opinions and then tell us to forget it when it doesn't suit you.
4) You want us to explain everything for you, different species, how to care for them, how to breed them, etc.

At this point, I'm fed up! Do the research and work YOURSELF!

I really don't care what you do anymore. Get yourself some retics, some african rocks, some burms, some monitors, iguanas, chameleons, heck, why not throw in some alligators and crocrodiles. Why not go for venomous snakes while you're at it!

And if you think it's still about your age, it ISN'T. It's about your LACK of maturity and common sense. There are other young members here like yourself that seem to have a lot more sense than you do.

Take the hint.

Pixie

icequeen

06-06-03, 04:20 PM

None of you have helped me all u do us gripe because im young.And you wonder why this board is going down hill!!!!!!!!

Excuse me?

NONE of what any of us had to say was because of your age!!!!
It had to do with your apparent lack of interest in hearing the cold, hard FACTS.

Yes we were being silly in the beginning, then when you came back later in the day, we offered post after post of FACTUAL information, which you chose to disregard.

If I'm not mistaken there are other "young" people on here, Emily Fisher comes to mind (forgive me Emily if you are not "young")
She is planning on getting a cham, and she herself figures it will take her about a YEAR to prepare for it's arrival.

Not TWO WEEKS.

Your age has ZERO to do with the way people are responding to you....and your attitude has EVERYTHING to do with it.

icequeen

06-06-03, 04:24 PM

By the way....

I, for one, am still interested in which care sheet says that chameleons will do just fine in rubbermaid containers.

Please tell us which site you read that on, so we dont' make the mistake of directing someone there.

Thanks...

Zoe

06-06-03, 04:24 PM

Yep Emily is young but you'd never guess it, she's really smart and mature - i'd trust her with my herps any day!

Madhatter and RachelS also come to mind, they are really cool and great to talk to. They all put lots of forethought into an animal before getting it.

I too am young (17), and I read every single caresheet online and ask all the questions I can before going ahead with something. I know the people on here have lots of experience and KNOW what they are talking about (for the most part), so I LISTEN to everything they say!

Zoe

Tim and Julie B

06-06-03, 04:27 PM

Okay everyone this is going no where fast. BP13 I am glad you chose ball pythons over chams. Good choice. There were a few people that had some good suggestions for you. Take this as a learning experiance. I would suggest staying on this forum at least part time because there is some very knowledgable people here that can teach you a lot. Just some friendly advice. Good luck and i hope to see you back here.

icequeen

06-06-03, 04:28 PM

My chameleons name is Zoe. I don't refer to him by name on here, because I don't want people to think I'm refering to YOU when I talk about having to force feed Zoe, or moving Zoe into his new cage....Hehehehe....maybe I should, just to make people go "HUH???"

Pixie

06-06-03, 04:29 PM

Yes, Emily is a fine example of smart young members here. I had the opportunity to meet her last weekend and she is definitely doing things right with her pets. It shows just by her posts and questions.

Another great example is garterguy, who just found a shelter to donate his time to and help animals that really need it. Now that is a great way to learn hands on about different species and their care.

I'm sure I'm missing a ton of other great young smart members here, sorry! I don't check the age of all who post :D

So it really doesn't have anything to do with your age, only with your MATURITY and COMMON SENSE which you are definitely LACKING

Pixie

JeffT

06-06-03, 04:48 PM

What was with him though. Im 14, have a few great breeding projects going and have a good paying job set up. I know I wasnt anything like him at that age, which was a year ago. Well im 15 next month on July 6th (wink, wink, nudge, nudge lol) Well we gave Ballpython13 a ton of advice and tips and he would ignor it and srart asking something about another herp. Think of the bad rep us young herpers got from this (amazing) 7 page epic.

Jeff~~~

marisa

06-06-03, 05:51 PM

I didn't even know you were 13.

And secondly, I have given you TONS of advice but you can't seem to accept that everyone won't do that work for you, and that experience with these creatures doesn't come overnight.

And then you start playing the age card like no tomorrow.

Give me a break.

And as for people who said Trace put an animals life in danger??? Are you kidding? You think this person is going to go out and get elephants to feed the cham (which they can't even spell correctly) and then be dissapointed it won't eat them? LOLOLOLOLOLOL If someone actually took anything said as a JOKE as anything but, then they really need some more research time. LOL.

Marisa

marisa

06-06-03, 05:59 PM

And I am also tired of some people blaming people on the forum for not walking people hand in hand through caring for an animal they have purchase and have done no research on.

Is it EVER going to be the pet owners responsibilty to learn on their own?

And if someone HAD said "You need to do research first" then one of our members would have said "no need to be so rude"!!! Its ridiculous IMHO. Humans need to learn others are there to help, not bare the full brunt of their non-researched purchase and then try and work through the most simple husbandry with them from step 1. over the internet.

Marisa

CyberGhost

06-06-03, 06:25 PM

Please people stop encouraging her shes a nut-case whatever she gets is just gonna end up in abonedment and pain!!!

V.hb

06-06-03, 07:07 PM

Even if someone is stupid, as you guys say.. and iam not commenting. There are still ways of dealing with them other then being just as stupid yourself... One option ---> ignore feature?

krrc

06-06-03, 08:15 PM

this is way out of hand they only reson I bother to reply is I dont want to hear about all the dead animals he will have. I feal bad for the animals he buys...

icequeen

06-06-03, 08:21 PM

Are you all aware that this is the same person posting on every single board as "dirty_pop" asking for advice on care, breeding and incubation??

It's all just a silly game to this person, to see everyone scrambling around trying to babysit him through his herp adventure.

But those of us who treated it as such earlier today are the bad guys.

Riiiiiiiight.

I apologized to BP13/Dirty_Pop just in case I hurt his feelings. Where's the apology from him for wasting everyone's time, getting page after page of advice (on this board, and just about every other)....and then just discarding it, because it wasn't what he wanted to hear?

And V...you had plenty to say earlier today about Trace, myself and everyone else that "played along"....perhaps you should of taken your own advice, and found that IGNORE button since this whole thread bothered you so much.