Incubation deformities. (long)

[Youkai]

I've hatched myself by now probably well over a couple hundred leos in the past 5 years or so. In all that time, I hatched two deformed hatchlings, both from the same clutch.

This season, with my older (12-13 year old) girls out to pasture, I'm playing with some different kinds of leos.

In an albino x super hypo cross with this male:
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/511/133shm3.jpg
and this female:
http://geckoisland.com/modules/gallery/albums/youkaispics/albino.jpg

I only got one egg, and decided I'd try my hand at what people are calling Tremper's incubation method - starting the eggs at a low temperature for two weeks, and bringing it up higher after. I started out at 81°F and after two weeks, slowly (over a week) raised the temperature to 88°F.

This hatched out a couple of weeks ago.
<img src="http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/511/133hypo_hatch_eyelids.jpg">

I knew something was wrong with its eyes almost immediately. A few weeks later, the deformities are more noticeable. The eyelid is split, the eyes seem placed in the head at an odd angle, and the pupils are often so dilated the whole eye looks black. This often results in red-eye when I photograph the animal. It is not blind, and can hunt well, and is growing normally.
I have two more eggs I incubated this way, and do not plan to continue doing so.
Here are some pictures. Please give me your thoughts, opinions, ideas, theories, $0.02 or what have you. :)

<img src="http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/133eyes5.jpg">

<img src="http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/511/133eyes.jpg">

<img src="http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/511/133eyes4.jpg">

<img src="http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/511/133eyes3.jpg">

<img src="http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/511/133eyes6.jpg">

[Colonel SB]

what affect is the tremper incubation technique supposed to have on the babies?

[Youkai]

It is basically supposed to result in brighter hatchlings. It is often easier to get nicer looking males at the higher temperatures required to hatch them. Using this method, you supposedly lock the sex in the first couple of weeks as female, but since pigment develops later, you still get a brighter animal. I essentially wanted to see for myself how well this worked.

[Colonel SB]

Have you bread these two leo's together in the past? If you haVen't them maybe it's the parents.

[eyespy]

Two possibilities come to mind. Most deformities are the result of a temperature fluctuation during a critical period of embryo development. A brief temperature spike is the most common culprit. Since you gradually raised your temps it probably had nothing to do with your using the Tremper method, plus I believe that the eyes are formed earlier than 2 weeks incubation in leos. Any time you use an electrical device there's the possibility of a brief temperature spike. Using surge protectors and thermostats on your incubator somewhat helps to protect against that sort of thing but unfortunately stuff still happens sometimes. That's my guess as to what happened.

The other possibility is a genetic defect from inbreeding as Colonel SB suggested. One or both parents could be passing on unwanted genetic mutations.

[CyberGhost]

I don't know what happened but I want the leo I think it looks awesome. How much are you willing to sell it for I could give it a good home. SInce its deformed would you give it for free I would pay shipping if not how much. I like it, it looks totally kool. Plz sell it to me name your price?PLzzzzzzzz

[Youkai]

Sorry, but this gecko won't be for sale, or given away.
1 - I will not sell deformed animals.
2 - I put a LOT of effort into this little girl the first week of her life, as her eyes were swollen closed after a couple of days. She will remain with me as a pet, living with some retired breeders of mine when she is large enough.

I agree, that despite the deformity, this will be an attractive looking gecko.

[Youkai]

Thanks eyespy. The temperature in the room they were incubated it is extremely stable, and I have yet to experience any problems with the incubators. I never even thought of the need for a surge protector, though it seems that will be something I'll invest in quite quickly.
We'll see how the other hatchlings fare once they hatch. (Did I just count my geckos before they hatch? Oops...)

[HQReptiles]

We too tried the "tremper" method, and had our hatch rates go down. We had a number of full term or near full term dead in the egg leos. This might have been due to our temperatures rising too quickly, but with the number of babies we are dealing with it was rather difficult to gradually raise the temperature. We have stoped altering the temperature of our incubators, and incubate females at 79 - 81 and males at a constant 89.

We have over the past three years produced between 1700 and 2000 leopards, out of these we have had a total of 3 with deformities. All are living happy single lives as pets with close friends. Two out of our three deformities were on the feet, we had two geckos hatch with only three toes on one foot, the other was with an albino that had a hump on its back near the base of the skull. The albino didnt grow as big as normal but other then that is doing fine.

Matt.

[Blazin]

I also tried the method. I have to say I will never do it again. I have had a number of eggs go bad and I have also hatched a few leopards with eyelid defomities! I would have to say thats a really big gamble using it considering what I have noticed compared to previous years. I think whenever results are obtained to easily you can run into problems. Life is like that in general. Things we work hard for are usually more dear to our hearts than things easily obtained. Great colors or intense colors obtained at the expense of other animals is not my cup of tea! I hope many others agree with me.

[Youkai]

Yeah, I'm in this for the pure fun of it. I thought that incubating that way was safe. There is no way I'll continue to cook eggs like that at such a cost. :/

[Tim and Julie B]

Wow! I was feeling like a bag o poop a couple nights ago 'cause for the first time I had a deformity. I thought for sure that I had caused it somehow. I too tried the Tremper method on the deformed baby, its clutch mate was perfect though. The poor little guy had 1 and a half heads. Still brings me to tears. There was nothing I could do and I felt helpless. I have 4 more clutches that I did this with and am very concerned now. I have slowly reduced the temp in the incubator to 82-84 degrees and will not take chances anymore. I'm sticking to what I know and have done for the past few years. Sometimes change just isn't as good as we'd like to think. I'm glad that you brought this up Youkai, I feel a whole lot better now, thanks:D
Julie.

[Youkai]

I'm glad I helped you by bringing this up. I too am going to stick to cooking eggs the way that makes me feel best. Besides, with any geckos I'd sell, I'd feel better that they are the color they are with NO special help.
For the record, I've seen that there are enough people experiencing the same thing (on this and other forums) that I think we can be safe in our assumption that this incubation 'method' can be a problem.

[drewlowe]

i also tried the temp thing. And i too came out with bad results. I had 2 of my leos born with no eyes. Yes no eyes. I had to put them to sleep after 3 weeks of trying to hand feed them. I never tried to attempt this again and haven't had any problems. Sept that one of my girl does have runt babies(75/25). And I'm thinking about never letting her breed again. And from this subject i don't think i will ever attempt to fluctate temps again. Thanks everyone for sharing the problems they had with changing temps.

[eyespy]

Wow!!! I don't keep leos and didn't realize how many folks were experiencing deformities like that. I've seen a few come into the clinic but since I worked as a surgical tech I don't have direct experience with the cases handled medically so I seldom got to see that kind of thing.

When I was incubating one clutch of beardie eggs last year I was surprised to see that my thermometer had stored a maximum temp of 91. It's one of those Radio Shack ones that saves the high and low temps. I have no idea when that happened or for how long the temps were high. By my own checking it stayed within a degree or 2 of the 84 I set the incubator.

Anyhow, 14 babies were healthy and 2 had birth defects. One had an enlarged heart and was very weak, the other failed to thrive and had a swollen right eye. She died after 5 months and necropsy revealed a glioma, a benign tumor of the optic nerve. We don't know if those problems were due to that temperature spike or just one of those things.

None of my other clutches (all from the same mating) had any problems. The other 66 babies grew well, ate like little piggies, and I've not had any health problems reported from the new owners excepting one guy got pinworms.

[Alicewave]

I think inbreeding is a bigger problem with leos than people realize. I've read in other forums that it is common practice to breed children to parents and what have you with no visible effect. But perhaps these deformities are then passed on the the inbred geckos children. Not saying this is the case with you at all Youkai but it's certainly possible. I'm no expert on the subject but I do have been hearing a lot about deformities in leos and this is one of the only breeds I know of that so many people advocate inbreeding. Maybe it's harmless but why take the risk. I think it's important especially if you're going to sell your animals to make sure they come from completely different bloodlines. Although it took inbreeding to get some of the morphs that are outthere so preventing inbreeding may not even be possible. That said, I'm a bit of a hypocrite because the two I bred together I got as rescue from the same person and there is a chance she got them from the same place so there is a chance they are related. But, I only wanted the experience of hatching out some eggs this year, I'm not planning to sell them so I am crossing my fingers that I haven't inbred them!

About temp fluctuations, I am glad to know now that so many are having problems with the Tremper method. I was gonna start cranking the incubator this weekend but now I think I'll just be patient and keep it at 83.

I want to take a little space to recommend hovabators as incubators. I know a lot of people make their own but so far my hovabator has been REALLY stable. Like eyespy, I have one of those digital thermometers that gives you the max/min temps. It has a reading for indoors and outdoors. So I have the outdoor probe in the Hova and the indoor base outside the hova reading the temp of my room. My room fluctuates a LOT but the Hovabator never fluxuates for than a 2 degree range. When I was calibrating the Hova I didn't trust it's thermostat so I plugged it in to my ESU thermostat and I got a 5 degree fluxuation. Yikes! Just something to think about. My 4 cents.

[drewlowe]

Yes i agree with eyespy and alice i have 1 of those indoor/outdoor themometers and i absolutely love it. You can also buy them with a 3 year warrenty. I plan on buying at least 3 more so i don't have to constantly move mine around.

[Youkai]

You can buy them for really cheap too. That's what I have my hovabators set up with.
And actually, in regards to a post earlier on in this thread, the temperature never went up in the incubator. The highest temp was like...maybe 2 degrees higher than what I had it set at, so it wasn't a sudden temperature fluctuation.

[Alicewave]

Well at least it's not a horrible deformity like a missing limb. Good luck with the babies. :)

[eyespy]

It was a hobavator that gave me the 6 degree temp spike. I don't know what happened there! In hotter and more humid weather it was fine. But it never happened again after I bought the surge protector so my belief is that there was a small power surge that caused it.

[Alicewave]

Weird. I have always had mine in a surge protector so maybe that's why I have good luck so far.

[TribalGecko]

Hi there,

Found this thread thanx to someone who answered my post regarding leopard gecko eye deformities.

My question now is this: Now that I have a hatchling born without eyes, how can I take care of him? Has anyone had any luck raising them up. A friend has him now and is trying to feed him but not having much luck. He finds water okay but can't catch crickets and won't take them out of our hands. We have tried baby food which he will lick off his snout but its not enough. Anyone have any other ideas or should be put him down?

Thanx in advance!

Kim

[Alicewave]

Go to www.herpnutrition.com Call the number and ask for some Enteral-Insectivore assist feed powder. It's very inexpensive and the most complete nutrition for reptiles available. If he will never take insects then you should be feeding with this stuff otherwise you he will never get all the nutrients he needs. You'd probably have to syringe feed. i can help you with the technique if you like. I dunno about putting him down. That's a tough call. I syringe fed a gecko for 2 months and she got used to it so she really didn't stress from it at all. It's worth a shot to go this route I think.

Oh and if you wanted a little more chunk in the diet you could mix up the enteral insectivore and puree in some mealies and waxies if you want. (you'll need a bit bigger syringe though, herpnutrition.com sells assist feed tools also.)

[Alicewave]

Hmm, i think I'll post my syringe feeding technique for you if it helps. You're going to work the syringe with the hand you write with. In your other hand, position the Leo across your fingers and wrap the heel of your hand over its back. This way you can use your thumb to stabilize it's head a bit. I have kinda shakey hands so I then hold the gecko in my hand this way with the thumbside of my hand steady against my chest. Use the tip of the syringe in the side of its mouth to encourage the leo to open up. When he you get an opportunity, get the tip of the syringe in farther. (This is not tube feeding, don't use a long-tipped syringe. You're not feeding directly into the stomach.) Wait til he is not struggling too much or you will have a mess. If you can get a good look be sure the liquid is going down the throat and not sitting in its mouth. Dispense only a little at a time or he will fling it all over you by shaking his head back and forth. Once you get some in, Take the syringe out and rub his throat gently a little bit. Give him a break for a couple minute. Try and wait to see him swallow. I've had aurora hold food in her throat to later fling it back at me when I thought she had swallowed. You'll have to repeat the process a couple times til you have fed him an appropriate amount. Depending on his weight you want to give .5-2ml (a few drops at a time) per feeding. Someone else may be able to help with the body weight rule. It's been a while, I don't quite remember the formula.

Key is, keep all your movements as firm and steady as possible but still be gentle. If you squeeze him to hard he will try to wriggle away. He's probably gonna HATE this cuz he's blind and doesn't know what the heck you are doing so you may need a helper. He should get used to it over time though.

[TribalGecko]

Thank you for the info....I am going to try it. He was one of my first clutch to hatch and I feel so bad for him. His brother is doing great though, getting huge. I have plenty of crickets, mealworms and different brands of reptile vitamens. The thought of grinding crickets and mealworms makes me feel a bit queasy though...haha.

Kim

[drewlowe]

Tribal gecko i have had 2 babies from the same clutch as you. I also tried hand feeding and baby food with no luck. After 3 weeks and watching them lose so much of the weight they started out with i decieded not to let them suffer any longer. I ended up freezing them. I figured it was the best for them. But i do wish you all the luck and i hope the little guy makes it. Please let me know if you succeced.

Jamie

[TribalGecko]

Well this is going to sound horrible but my associate says "waste not, want not". This gecko is only about half way up the food chain in our large collection of herps, some of which would get a great meal out of the poor guy. I love all my herps and don't want to feed one to the other. I am doing everything I can to save him, I am partial to geckos! I really think my friend can pull it off and save him though!

[DragnDrop]

Temperature spikes can produce deformities, and one of the easiest to produce is eyelids and eyes.

There's one other common cause of eye deformities, and that's lack of Vitamin A and excess calcium.

VITAMIN A: PROVEN BENEFITS

Promotes bone growth, teeth development, reproduction.
Helps form and maintain healthy skin, hair, mucous membranes.
Builds body's resistance to respiratory infections.

What this vitamin does:
Essential for normal function of retina. Combines with purple pigment of retina
(opsin) to form rhodopsin, which is necessary for sight in partial darkness.
Necessary for growth of bone, testicular function, ovarian function, embryonic
development, regulation of growth, differentiation of tissues.

Excess Calcium can interfere with absorption of Vitamin A.
A vet I know seems to think the eye deformities started showing up more often a year or so after the calcium substrates became popular. I'm just curious, but were any of the parents of the deformed geckos kept on calcium sand substrate (any brand)? Or is there a chance they could have ( or almost) had excess Vitamin D3 and Calcium?

Other symptoms of Vit A deficiency include hatchlings are tiny, have short tails, missing or deformed eyelids, a pouch-like flap of skin under the chin, weak, poor
vision or even blind. Older ones could have poor aim while hunting, rough skin and constant bad sheds.

If you noticed any of these symptoms in the parents (or if housed in groups, then in any of the group members), you might have a clue of what went wrong.

[TribalGecko]

Oh wow! I started out keeping them on newspaper when they were growing up and then my associate told me about CalciSand and so they have been on that all through their breeding. They were raised on a diet of waxworms and crickets and I started using minerall about once a week after they started laying eggs. I never see them eating the sand, they mostly stay in the breeding box. One thing I did notice is that their stools had vermiculite in them, they were shiney. But lately they have just looked like normal stool.

[Alicewave]

Vitamin A hmm? I never knew that but I guess it's good I've been using carrots as my moisture source for the mealworms all this time :)