live bearing chameleons?

[wonder_chunky]

hey,

i'm trying to get into breeding some chameleons, i'm breeding veileds right now but i'm not too good at, and just dont really like to look after eggs...i get so paranoid that i'm not doing it right and stuff...so i'd prefer if the mom chameleon did all the work and just plop me out some live babies!:D
but i dont know of any live bearing chams besides jacksons that are really popular...i dont want to breed a cham that i wont be able to sell...so does anyone know of any?

thanks

[Laurier]

do some research


http://www.adcham.com

[memento]

ever stop to think that maby asking a question is part of his research? that was rather harsh...

mind u though from reading the post your breading for the wrong reasons.... dont do it cause you want to "turn" a profit or have ones you will be able to sell. you should do it because its something you like/want to do and THEN if you make some money be happy..... but as the previous post said do some research... and if this is part of your research well good luck with your project

[wonder_chunky]

i totally agree....i am doing it because i really do love it!...i spend 90% of my time and money caring for these guys, i do it because i get enjoyment from it, but i'm only 15 years old and its sorta hard for me to make an easy buck to pay for all of the herps, and CRICKETS!...they cant get expensive here!
so i want to breed them because i love looking after them but also the money would help to aid in getting more herps so i can continue to do this........also...are jacksons chams very popular (to sell)..i'm thinkin about getting a couple.

[Laurier]

i said he should research more because i gave him and awsome sitefor him to look at and find out whats species are live bearing. as for the profit issue, make sure youknow what you saying and how you are saying it on a post. alot can be misleading.

i do not think that saying you should do some more reseach is harsh. When your asking questions like "what are live bearing species" or "can males and females of this species be housed together" . questions like these can easily be answered on the adcham site.

as for the fact that you want live bearing species this shows that you do not believe that you can perform the tanks of taking care of the eggs. see your missing out, and taking care of the eggs is probably the most rewarding job in your part you have to do because you feel rewarded when your eggs start hatching, and it shows your skills as a breeder. live bearing are awsome to wake up and see a bunch off offspring running around but unless you like that species your mainly in it for the money.

as for wonder_chucky, i accually think you should consider doing more research. from what i read you basically killed you veiled and you came here crying "ahh she was egg bound", you killed her face it. you did not provide a proper egg laying site and she would not lay the eggs and than it got to late. As for your werneri, you thought it was a jacksons. wow 2 species that aren't that to hard to seperate as 2 individual species. I personally think you should do more research before you get any more chameleons, if you disagree with me i just hope for the best of the chameleons.

Laurier

[wonder_chunky]

man...this forum WAS cool...i ask a question and some guy i dont even know or care about comes on and accuses me of stuff and yells at me....i'm simply asking a question..is there any harm on that seeing as how this IS an information forum...as for me killing her...i went to alot of websites and did exactly what they told me to do, so dont start yelling at me, i did exactly as you said, i researched! and how do you expect me to NOT believe my werners was a jacksons...the pet store handed it to me and said "here ya go kid...this is a jacksons chameleon!" but i noticed she was different and researched (theres that word you love so much) and found out she wasnt one!...so maybe you should know what your talking about before you try and make people feel bad to make yourself look cool...it isnt working man

[Laurier]

ohh i am trying to look cool, thats right. just telling you the truth.

you seem to know very few facts about chameleons and how to keep them. see we have things called search engines, probably have heard of them but when you type in live bearing chameleons or something like montain chameleons there will be a nice set of sites that you can open and look at.

i think that you should try and find information before you come on here and ask questions that can be found in some simple research , yes research is one of my favorite word because without it you would be an idiot to what your doing.

next time you post a question i promise i won't say anything, already get enough kicks at what you say, the funniest one so far was you wanting to get parsons. ya, any novice chameleon keeper knows that they are rare in captivity and that they are hard to keep because of husbandry.

Laurier

[Linds]

......please play fairly on these forums, this is what sets us aside from the others, the fact that we do not have people posting negatively and throwing accusations. We are a very friendly group here, and happy to answer questions to help, asking questions is an essential part of research ;)

Regards.....................

[sSNAKESs.com]

Laurier if he thought he knew he wouldnt be asking questions.. this isnt kingsnake man, answer questions to the best of your ability or just ignore the questions please... Not everyone is a experienced keeper...

[sSNAKESs.com]

Laurier i didnt mean to be rude but THESE forums are here for asking questions or begginers or advanced keepers, we dont mind answering even the smallest or silliest questions :) I dont mean to offend you, just letting you know :)

[Jeff_Favelle]

Because chameleons are stupid, ugly little lizards!










Ha ha, just kidding. But they ARE tricky and not for the novice. Get a leopard or day gecko first to learn basic husbandry. But if its a chameleon you must have, read every single article you can find, 'cause you're playing with an animal's life.

Jeff Favelle

[wonder_chunky]

i'm still laughing at laurier's last post....if you only knew what you were talking about!...first of all....i only got my VERY FIRST chameleon in december...how much do you expect me to know!
oh look...that research word again...my main research source is ssnakess.com (thanks jeff:D ) i have found most, if not all of my information on here and not once had anyone treat me like this, i may not know as much about chameleons as you do so thats why i am asking, how else do you expect me to learn? how would i know that parsons chameleons are rare....the way i found out was researching!!...your fav. word...i came on here and asked and my question was answered pretty nicely, i believe you even answered it for me. whenever i post a question on here i always used to read your posts first because they were the most informative, you seemed to know alot about chameleons and i respected you for that. But now it sems like it is a crime to come on an information forum for information!!!! if you have a problem with the questions i as, then dont bother helping me, there are plenty of other experienced reptile keepers on this site that i would love to hear what they have to say, they are every bit experienced as you are...but alot nicer in giving the information...

[Jaylyn]

Ryan,

I think the point Laurier (and others) are trying to make - is that chameleons are not easy to care for in captivity. Have some sucess with the veileds first - they are the hardiest chameleon.

I am OMG almost 30 - stay home to care for my children - and spend every spare minute researching and caring for the reptiles. And I still have piles of information to go through and things to learn (mainly on chams). To be frank - there are not many (if any??) experienced cham keepers in Canada - so this is maybe ?? not the best forum to seek advice on husbandry (note that being experienced means working with several species for many, many years). The egg-binding could have been prevented - the information is there. You need to be able to learn from your mistakes and then do the research.

I think I remember reading that you are fifteen. I don't know if you realize the time and money that sucess/responsible cham breeding requires. With the veileds even - misting (three times a day), drip (twice a day), depending where you live: fogger (several times a day), preparing high quality gutload, variety of purchased and wild caught insects, reduced feeding and cooling to lower the number of eggs produced (as to not exhaust and kill the female in just a few breedings), etc. The montane species require even more exact care. Then feeding and housing 25-50 babies in individual housing for three months. Finding GOOD homes for the babies. Cham breeding is not particularly finacially rewarding - when all costs are taken into consideration. And you are young (not saying you can't do it) - but enjoy your TIME!! Many breeders are unable to take holidays - you have lots of time ahead of you (when you're old like me!).

Jaylyn

[AzR@k]

all i have to say is if you can breed them successfully congradulations i wanted to own chams but after i did the research and discovered how even handleing can kill them i decided not to purchase them....i am doing the lizard thing by starting out with something easy for me it is a chinese water dragon...but down the road when i have alot more money and time i will invest in chams but when that time comes i will have all the knowledge i need to know...but dont ever be discouraged ur only 15(not saying that i am alot older then u but i am older) if u fail there is always a 2nd shoot with trying an easier to mantain lizard! or even snakes!:) but no matter what bad things are said keep trying and learning!

[Laurier]

sorry wonder_chucky,

but you can thank memento for starting this. I gave you probably the best site to look through and see what is a live bear. See this is not the best forum for lizards and amphibians because as you probably know 80% of out reptile / amphibian industry up here is snakes. if you want to learn more got to the chameleon forum find hardcore reptiles and e-mail him up. he is probably one of the bigger chameleon breeds/ keepers online thats in canada.

as for laughting at my post, well you should consider researching in a different way and just come here and ask questions that you could not answer through your research. Why i say this is because most of the information you are learning from people is personal experience and opinion. I suggest you go get a book and read it before you get anymore chameleons.

Since you know so much and have have a handful of chameleons i suggest you don't buy a chameleon without researching on it. Trust me you are lucky you got a werneri instead of a jackson. Because jacksons need a 10 degree drop at night from 72 to 62 and they hate being in hot locations. These chameleons stress out very easily and because of them being montain it hard to keep them in the same room as veileds and panthers.

sa for you being 15, no excuss. if you want a chameleon make sure you can take care of it. chameleons aren't that hard if they are given the right husbandry. This is similar to what i say to people about dart frogs, because the darts have a reputation for being hard to care for. See i will have 25 dart frogs in 2 weeks and people are always saying, how can you take care of that many, i spend so much time with my 4 and it takes up alot of time. Than i basically tell them that if you give them the right housing darts are as easy as a whites tree frog. I laught when i think back going oh i need experience before i buy darts. this is why i laught, because i listened to people who told me "start off with something like a whites tree frog" and i was like ok so i got some red eye tree frogs, another over rated frog. So now i tell people who have never kept a frog that if they want frogs just research make the enclosure and make sure its the right temp and humidty and you can keep darts.

what i am also saying in this post is kind of leading from AzR@k
post because i hate hearing kids saying oh this animal is to hard for me. i think just go for it, screw what other people say just do it as long as you have your research down. Trust me AzR@k chameleons aren't that hard, just time consuming.

well i think i should stop blabbering on about everything, could be here for hours.

Laurier

[AzR@k]

i never ment it was 2 hard just that i dont have everything needed to start off with chams i was going to buy a panther but i was scared away buy what i had been told buy a friend who had alot of probs with his so i got scared away..i guess i chickened out but oh well i will purchase chams later on.but just not yet...for i am not ready for them

[wonder_chunky]

i can understand laurier....it's just you were a bit harsh with your first post and i got a little mad.....i know that i can raise a pretty healthy veiled or werners or a whatever, but the only thing i was saying is that i get way too paranoid looking after the eggs...knowing that if i make a mistake...i could kill all of them...and although the responsibility is rewarding in the end, it's just i'd prefer if the mother does the raising in her so that i know that she knows what she's doing....but about me being 15, that doesnt make me and less smarter than anyone here (although some of you guys are pretty darn smart ;) ) also, i manage to make enough money (i gots me a job :D ) to buy lotsa crickets, mealworms, waxworms etc. plus me and my dad build pretty good cages too, so it doesnt matter about housing them, plus i have a fairly big house with plenty of room to house these guys...so i believe i have what it takes to care for, and maybe breed chameleons... not only because i have all the right stuff like cages, space money etc.....but because i think chameleons are an amazing animal and i would do anything to keep them alive, even research (heehee laurier :p ) so i'm sorry we got in this big ol' fight laurier (and all of the others dragged into it) lets just forget about aqll of this and learn from it....i know i will...and i look forward to hearing all of your wisdom and advice on any of the posts i put up...thanks alot

[Dom]

Nice and interesting conversation guys!

I just wanted to say one thing to you Wonder Chunky ..


I did a big mistake or should I even say, I took a large risk .. I invested lots of time love and money on a large collection of animals at a very young age without trully knowing where I would be in 5 years .. lucky for me all turned out well ..

Think about it .. what happens when u go to university or colledge or even when you move out .. Its easy to find a place with a cham or two but I would strongly suggest keeping it small until you trully know wheree you are going with your life and that you know you are stable cause trust me there is nothing worst then having to loose an animal ...

I temporarly lost my two burms and I HATED myself for it .. lucky for me I do have them back now..

Basically - being young does not mean you lack intelligence or the abilities to care for them if you inform yourself well .. It simply means you lack the stability..


Just my 2 cents

Take care guys
Dom

[Jaylyn]

The point I was trying to make Dom!! Ryan, I am sure you are more than capable of of breeding the chams - I just wouldn't want your life 'taken over' by them so soon!

Here's something - many of you have probably already seen - but it applys:



So, you think you want an iguana, do you? Just like that guy down the
street when you were kid that drove that old hippie van. Well you'd better
think long and hard about the path that you're leading yourself down. I
know. I've been there. Oh yeah, it starts innocently enough. You want an
iguana because they are interesting, you say. They don't make noise, you
say. They only eat vegetables, you say. No trouble at all, you say.
Right!

Well think again! These "innocent" iguanas are "gateway lizards". They
will lead you down a sad and tragic path of misery. They are the starting
gate for a long and downward spiral into reptile hell. Trust me. I've been
there.

It starts simply enough. First you need an aquarium. Then you need some
lights. Then you need vitamin supplement. Before long, that cute little
iguana has outgrown its tank, and then you need to build a cage. Cage after
cage it goes through, getting bigger and bigger, like a festering boil that
you try to ignore. it spends its time in the corner, growing. Consuming
your time.

Then your attention turns elsewhere. You need a bigger challenge. A
bearded dragon. Right! We've all been there, my friend. But that bearded
dragon needs insects. Now where are you? A slave to the schedule of the
pet stores and bait shops. Then you start buying them in bulk to save some
money. You don't worry about the way the mail man looks at you, just like
you didn't notice when your friends stopped calling. By this time, you're
in deep my friend. Real deep.

Then it happens. You move on to the hard stuff. Chameleons. You
rationalize that all this is just a hobby. How hard can they be? They may
look innocent enough, but don't be fooled my friend. Nay! You start by
buying one, and then you find out you need a bigger habitat, and the lights
just keep getting more and more expensive. Variety of diet is oh so
important. And then you need another chameleon, and another. What about
montane species? Now you're sliding down the path out of control. Sure.
Its interesting. They seem fun enough. Then you hit rock bottom. You tell
your spouse that the back room is off limits because you're running a
breeding experiment. I "need" the garbage can because my female is laying
eggs. I've got to run to the store right now to get some vermiculite...yes,
I know its midnight. Finally, reality isn't important. You're lost in a
world of arboreal lizards. Running around in your neighbors yard with a
butterfly net catching field plankton. sneaking outside in your underwear
to collect moths near the porch light. Finally you wake up one day, covered
with minerall and crusting vermiculite in your hair wondering what you've
done to your life. You've given up your lucrative career for a job in a pet
store. Your friends have abandoned you. Who needs them? You have your
reptiles. Thats all that matters.

I've been there, my friend. Oh yes. We've all been there. So, you think
twice before you buy that iguana little camper. You don't know what you're
doing...


But, whatever you decide - I wish you nothing but the best!!

Jaylyn

[wonder_chunky]

thats funyy...bacause it is soooo true...but i havent "doomed" myself yet...i dont have too many herps, but just like all of you guys on here, its something i love to do...i wont go too crazy and get 20 lizards or anything...just a few

[Jaylyn]

Sure .... LOL

We started with the redfoot tortoises - strictly fruits and veggies. We would NEVER consider something that ate bugs EEEEWWW!

Well, now 14 insectivores later and 4000+ bugs in the basement ... but we'll never get anything that eats rodents - I mean our dwarf rabbit is precious!! But - those pics of the GTPs are making me wonder....

Sometimes I think the reptiles are a disease! ;o)

Jaylyn

[AzR@k]

i agree jaylyn!!!!!

[Laurier]

hey,

i liked the point about thinking ahead and knowing what will happen with yourself. I am one of the luckier ones who is able to stay with my parents untill i am out of university. But the problem comes when you have to many large reptiles relying on your care. I have seen people having to sell of most of there collection because of leaving for university/collage. I am trying to stick more to the animals that i can produce my own supply of food, like dart frogs (god i love them) but there is always my passion for chameleons. I was going to set up a lateralis (carpet chameleon) project this upcomming fall untill i heard that madagascare closed to exportations due to political problems. This just tore my heart up. But now i am glad that this project did not go into effect. even if the animals live over a year (most female lateralis females die after there first or second clutch) i know this project would be very time consuming and that i could not bring it on with me when i go out on my own.

I highly support the exercise of cultivating/ breeding your own food. hope none of the cricket or mice breeders don't see that. but its probably the best thing you can do when dropping the prices for food. at this time i pay 75 bucks every second week for crickets. it adds up and i know that i will not be able to afford this when i am older. I have already planned out what i am doing and because most of my reptiles eat large crickets i will just buy 1000 of them set up a breeding program for crickets and than feed my dart frogs pinhead crickets.

Jaylyn sweet point on the montane species. if your not ready for them they ussually kick you in the *** with problems, some being able to sure easily, like de-hydration (the most common problem with jackson). I personally think that you should have a lowland species before you get the montane's.

well i should stop now. probably continue if anything else comes up.

Laurier

[sungazer]

well that is alot of fighting while your guys are fighting your forgetting that the chamelons are the important thing here.wondar if you have any more qustions please feel free to email me at drake_reptiles@hotmail.com (i am an expert in herps and i also do reptile rescue. thanx

[Dennis]

Hey Wonder-are you the same guy who had baby jackson's from a WC mother, then suddenly decided not to sell them to me? What ever happened to all those babies?

[wonder_chunky]

she wasnt wc......i couldnt sell em to you becuase you live on the other side of canada...lol..thats quite the drive..lol..and i wasnt gonna ship em....you tell me how i could sell them to you... :)

[Jaylyn]

Not sure if you are still looking for Jackson's or not - but Jean-Francois Hamel still has some juvenilles for sale. jfhamel@yahoo.com

Ryan - how's the werner's doing?

Jaylyn

[Jotun]

OK! well that was entirely too much to read for my tastes! :) I've always been a cautious herper after my first rat snake which I had to give away to a better home due to some problems. This is why I started herping again with something like the King snake and my experience with it so far has been great. I've recently adopted a leo that had a bad eye and I'm nursing him back to health and I'm also getting a Cape York Spotted Python when the breeder thinks the babies are ready. I guess what I'm trying to say through my mindless ramblings is to start with something you KNOW you have the time, money and patience to take care of because you owe it to the animal to at least do that much. My suggestion would be to stick with the chams you have right now until you are comfortable enough to care for something a little less hardy, BUT always ask questions, that is the best way in the world to learn in my opinion. :)

- Rick

[Jotun]

oh and i truley believe that reptiles are a disease... a wonderfully rewarding and can-be painful disease :) but when i go to college i have a caring mother that understands their needs but again if it wasnt for her my room would be full of aquariums and cages! Three's enough for me right now... until i get out on my own and have the room for more. Further on down the road I may give my leo some company but that'll be about it until i have a big apartment or my own home. :)

[Quervo]

Jaylyn .. I read your (really funny) post ... you were insinuating that all that was a bad thing:D

None of my neighbors will come anywhere near my house .. that's where that wierd guy lives ... he's out playing in the bushes at two in the morning. lol

Jotun .. I just noticed your tag line about Azr@k .. lmfao just doesn't cover it .. I damn near died!!! (sorry Azr@k, but your original tag line was a bit annoying)

[Jaylyn]

Nah - never meant to insinuate it was a bad thing!! ;) Just a gentle warning - because once you're hooked ...

Everything in that quote applies to me (now I'm only admitting this to you guys)!! And I haven't been avid that long! But heck, vermiculite washes out - some people will come back for supper after a superworm crawls across the table - and we don't chase grasshoppers in the neighbours yard, we drive out in the pasture with the truck and the kids in the back with nets (you can catch 500 in 15 minutes!). My sister thinks I'm wierd when I told the new jax that she was the cutest girl in the world - the neighbours think we are wacked for breeding crix - and digging up eggs gives me the same feeling as opening that present from Santa. My husband dreams about cage design and my kids (aged 5-10) can recite the husbandry requirements of any reptile in the house. I could go on and on - but I'm starting to scare myself!!

Too much fun! :)

Jaylyn

[Jotun]

i can recite the caging requirements for over 20 different snakes but i cant recite our national anthem

i remember to feed my reptile before i think to feed myself

instead of a stereo or walkman for christmas, i ask for a larger aquarium for my turtle

i pay more attention to the health of my herps than my own... speaking of which what is this thing grow--- nevermind

My conversations start with "Oh my kingsnake did the darndest thing today"

^^^ Top 5 reasons I'm addicted ;)

[Quervo]

See .. that's the nice thing about this forum. every one here is committed (or should be committed).:D

[Jeremy T]

actually I think adcham.com is a pretty crappy site. thats all i wantd to say....no point in writing a reply to this blabbering on about anything cuz I most likely won't look back so save your time :P

[RaVeNo888o]

Originally posted by Laurier
i do not think that saying you should do some more reseach is harsh. When your asking questions like "what are live bearing species" or "can males and females of this species be housed together" . questions like these can easily be answered on the adcham site.
Laurier

Give him a break, hes 15 and just loves them thats all. Im only 17. Your saying questions like these can be aswered easily at the adcham site....well they could be answered just as easily by a simple yes/no or a short list on a nice forum such as this one. This place is about learning and asking questions. Yes its true ppl should research some on there own, but once you said that............anyways, no hard feelings, happy herping:)

[SilverTongue]

well hells bells i was gonna buy me a pair of veilds tonight good thing I didnt. LoL I had no idea they were so hard to keep.

Another thing I wish people would stop selling iguannas no i know I cant spell. Have you lookind in the adoption adds for animals lately. THere must be about 100+ iguannas needing homes. People just dont do the reasearch for them. THey are this cute lil lizard with an adorable ingellengence in their eyes. But sooner or later that cute lil lizard becomes 5+feet. It is a shame. I wish I could give them homes, but one has to be realistic.

If I could make a request that if you dont really need to start with a baby reptile then please look through your local animal shelters. A lot of herps and mamals need homes.

[RaVeNo888o]

very good point silver, there are tons of animals that need homes, but most ppl prefer to get babies, which is a shame for all those grown up herps. So if u dont mind not getting a baby, please look at the shelters (often at good prices too!)

[Jaylyn]

SilverTongue,

It's not that they aren't hardy (veileds are actually quite hardy) - they do well given the right conditions - just particular - and every species has slightly different requirements. It just takes some time (and money) getting everything right. I found I needed to do WAY more research (than compared to the leos or beardies - not saying I didn't reasearch them alot, too!) to give them good care. And sometimes tracking down good information is difficult - I did make alot of mistakes in the beginning faollowing falsehoods. But, all that said - they are worth every minute (and penny)!

Jaylyn

[Jotun]

you it's funny, i love baby herps and all but i especially like grown up herps when they're all big and mature :) they're just cool when they're like that... if i had the time and money AND room i'd adopt an iguana... maybe some other time :)

[reverendsterlin]

iguanas, burm, retics I do a lot of rescue but even I won't take them for myself and these 3 are near impossible to place (even most zoo won't take them and I know the keepers lol).